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"Please note, Pac-Man can not be voted on in this round".
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() Cornbread with a side of salt. Jimmy Neutron boy wonder.
()()People serisualy overhype Marth. He's kinda like Link where people refuse to believe that he isn't high tier despite most evidance showing that they are, indeed not high tier (Espicially Link, who is bottom 10 and even bottom 7 when miis get all moves. And btw, that's another thing, can you guys please stop messing with this tier list and putting Link up so high when you only need to use obvious common sense to know he's at least tier 5. It's just an insult to people who understand this game and to the decelepers for not making Link so good, you're litertatly rubbing it in their faces by putting him so high. It's just disrepsectful). I guess you could argue that "Marth being top 30 is supported by results due to Mr. E and Pugwest.", but Brood and Yusan get even better results with Duck Hunt and Dandypenguin gets only slightly worse results with him, and last I checked he isn't top 30.
(+)(*)COULD go higher, but the results of the others are better and every character here has around equal theory. Also, I will vote later. None of these characters "fit" tier 2 besides Guest XXXX Brawler IMO.
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(): I will just re-itterate, that I don't think Marth is any higher. However, when people down vote him when they have no real reason to calls for such countervoting.While results do mean a lot, they don't mean everything. For a start, Marth does have good enough results to at least hang with these characters, with better results that some of the characters in this tier in the first place.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying some people would argue that his results make him top 30, but this doesn't make him top 30 because by that logic, Duck Hunt would end up in tier 3 too when this isn't true, because theory still plays a part and theory doesn't put Marth in top 30 at all, like Duck Hunt. Which means that just because his results are good, it doesn't make him top 30. People that say he's top 30 in potential are, as I said, overhyping him or refusing to believe he isn't extremely good this time around.3:
I once again feel this tier is alright as it is. However, it's posts above me that make me make votes like this...
+1
While results do mean a lot, they don't mean everything. For a start, Marth does have good enough results to at least hang with these characters, with better results that some of the characters in this tier in the first place.
The reason why Marth is this high and Duck Hunt isn't, is because Marth isn't held back by a slew of flaws. While both Marth and Duck Hunt have results, lets compare them as characters a moment.
+ Great (disjointed) range
+ Quick moves
+ Great grounded normals, which can convert into many moves
+ Strong set of aerials
+ Good zoning that is rewarded
+ Great off stage game, with solid recovery move
+ Can seal stocks off relatively easy, through sheer power, or conversions into an edgeguard
+ Can play defensively when needed, safely
+ Great juggling tools
+ Good overall matchup spread, with few outright losing matchups, and solid overall matchup spread against top tiers
+ Above average results
+ Above average mobility
+ Has relevancy against certain top tiers (Rosalina being a notable example)
+ Kill throw
- Has a lackluster set of combo throws that stop working or become unreliable after very low percents.
- Punishable smash attacks
- A lot of his moves are punishable when unneededingly spammed
- Requires precision to play correctly
- Active frames on certain important moves, such as Fair and Dtilt are rather low, lending to more precision
- Doesn't have enough safety to rush down effectively. Is very susceptible to momentum shifts.
- While has an overall great matchup spread, he does struggle with certain top tiers, namely Sheik, Ryu, and Pikachu
- No projectile
+ Good set of projectiles
+ A solid set of aerials
+ Projectiles can force approaches
+ Above average results, better than a lot of the characters around him
+ Very good Up Tilt, almost Mario level
- Overall below average range, lacking disjoints
- Poor grounded normals, aside from Up Tilt
- Poor overall approach, lacking sufficient autocancels to do so safely
- Lack luster off stage game, due to lacking overall range and/or disjoint
- The point above is only made worse by his "please gimp me" poor and slow recovery move
- Projectiles CAN force approaches, but aren't powerful enough to do much else. Shield stops them most of the time.
- Very poor KO power, with lack of safe KO moves, and smashes that don't link properly
- Very poor grab game, lacking true follow ups, and a kill throw
- No relevant positive matchups against top tiers, and overall poor matchup spread, with very bad matchups against multiple top tiers
- Poor against rushdown and reflection
If we went by your theory, Yoshi and Peach should be at least in tier 5, because their results are actually quite poor and lacking. However, they aren't, because they have multiple positive traits that keep them up there (this is why I put Yoshi up a bit higher than normal; he lacks notable results, but they can only keep a good character down so far I believe). This is what Duck Hunt lacks, and overall has more negatives than he does positives.
Can I also point out that False gets results with Marth, not just Pugwest and Mr. E? I can't remember the player's name, but there is a Japanese player doing stuff with Marth recently (came 5th I believe at Karisuma), and that says a lot about the character when Japan are notorious for having poor views on him. Marth has more players than just these two.
Rant over.
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I totally understood what you said, and I even explained it. I said that, while he does have good results, the reason he is up there is not just because of his results, but his traits (which I then went on to explain). I also went on to explain that Duck Hunt could never be that high, because while he does have some results, he has flaws, ones that hold him back severely (which I also went on to explain).
I never said Duck Hunt was top 30 lol.
()(*) After a while of doubting, I've moved him up. His options are just insane, with great frame data, good kill power, great zoning and edgeguarding, and insane combo game. He also has plenty of high-level rep, most notably iStudying getting 2nd at Beast 6 but also some other players. I believe in his potential! (countervote) Guys, GUEST SIZE. His deadly combos are no longer true, his insane mobility is gone, and his vertical recovery is now even worse. I'm not saying he should go down, but he definitely shouldn't go up, either. (EDIT: In fact, I've moved him higher up as of now.)
1) Rosalina struggles against disjointed range such as swords, with Cloud, Shulk, and Marth being some of her harder matchups because not only can they threaten Luma, but they can safely poke at him with their range without the risk of being punished. Any Marth player will tell you that Marth is a relavant pick against Rosalina. It's debatable whether he wins or not, but he certainly does go even with her, and gives her trouble.
Eh, Lucas has a good number of results in Japan thanks to Taiheita, and a few notable ones in the U.S., and Marth has great results everywhere thanks to Pugwest, Mr. E (?) and False. I suppose it's worth mentioning that you can only downvote and upvote one character.3:
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I actually forgot about that even tho i mentioned it, however Guest Brawler got 4th at some recent euro tourney iirc.
No + vote.
-1 :miibrawler: Guys, GUEST size. His deadly combos are no longer true, his insane mobility is gone, and his vertical recovery is now even worse. He shouldn't go down, but he definitely shouldn't go up, either.
LOL you either are joking or don't know one SINGLE thing about it, for thr Pac-Man one. That matchup is garbage for Marth LOL.
WAIT WHAT? DANG IT! Replace my Lucas downvote with a Greninja up vote then.
No Winter, I am not joking, and until you can come up with solid reasons without dismissing my points as "LOL you are joking", I see no reason to see why it's in Pac Man's favour. I know for a fact that when we've played on numerous occasions, your Pac Man (which is admittedly very strong), gives my Marth little trouble. Marth has to be wary of Pac Man's projectiles, which can force an approach from Marth most of the times, but once Marth is in, shield beats most of Pac Mans options, and Pac Man has little answer to his range. Pac Man thrives off of camping and keeping Marth away. That's basically what this matchup comes down to.
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Ah that's the guy I was thinking aboutYikarur gets 4th in Germany pretty frequently with
While yes I believe a Guest Brawler so easily top of tier 3, EVO was kinda odd considering the customs on every character, but the only reason I did not upbote brawler is cause I am main biasedI think Guest XXXX Mii Brawler is seriously underrated. In EVO 2015 Dapuffster took top 16 with Mii Brawler, losing to Mr. R who ended up getting 2nd place overall (and Dapuffster was really close to winning the second set vs Mr. R). This video might be worth watching, where he wins two sets against ZeRo's Diddy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdcgwDARUoQ
Anyway, here are my votes:
3:
+
(for real though it is just lack or knowledge on Guest Brawler as opposed to smawler)and get "poor" results, I wanna try to clear something up.
, , and . He also got pretty far at G3 using Peach, I believe it was 17th place. Meru and Umeki are also notable Peach mains that continue to get good results.
()()+1 Guest XXXX Brawler is top 15, imo. Bonkers character, you all would get nightmares if he was Small size.
I would argue that that Brawler getting such good results at EVO where everyone had customs available says quite a lot. In an environment where only Miis get customs they're at an even greater advantage. The difference between bottom tier 2 and top tier 3 might not be that great anyway, though. I think overall Guest XXXX Mii Brawler has a lot of potential and if Guest XXXX sets were more commonly available they'd be a much more common pick.[/QUOTE]
() He just hasn't been getting much results lately. Very scary honestly. If a person learns her to her full potential. There's no way we can tell what she's gonna pull(pun intended)
This is strictly an anti vote. But Corrin is mad overrated. Has Peach syndrome worse than Peach where everyone going "B-But potential!" with the results laughing at the idea. But instead of almost no results, its that most of his results come from either being one of 2 or 3 characters a person uses, or randomly showing up as a one off counterpick. Which over inflate his results so everything thinks he has good results. But then when you break down a) how many of his results are solo and b) how many of his results are at major tournaments, his results just fall off of a cliff for that area of character strength in the tier list. (The second thing I listed there is part of the reason why when you look at that chart a few posts back, his win rate is only a 45%. Keep getting used as a desperation counterpick and failing) I'm fairly confident that even Marth has more solo results nowadays than Corrin does. Toon Link is crazy. And actually has some really good top level results to back it up. It was pretty close between him and Falcon though, as both rely on a rather small number of individuals for said results.
I don't mean to be nitpicky, but you're only allowed one upvote and one downvote. Follow your heart!+
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I could not agree more. I feel like this whole "hidden potential" dynamic is something that people rely on far too much for tier placements. Just because a character may be capable of doing something big in the future doesn't mean they are doing that now. The whole point of a tier list is to rank characters on their current place in the meta. That is why we need to stop overrating characters like Corrin, Peach, etc just because they have "hidden potential" (which Peach doesn't even have otherwise she would have already shown it). I think Corrin is a solid character but I agree that we should not overrate them since they do not have results or theory to back up a placement in the next tier up.
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He's a great counter pick character with a strong gimmick Side B (which will probably get nerfed next patch due to it most likely causing problems with online play btw, though that was not taken into his account in my placement of him), but he's not a good solo character. Which a tier list is looking at. HIs game outside of Side B doesn't hold up well enough. Certainly not top 15, that's just down right laughable.
Crap, I guess I'll just remove the Marth upvote.
To be honest, Corrin as a character has always confused me. You summarized how I would describe him perfectly: solid. He's solid, though I don't think he's much more than that. After all, hardly anyone is solo-maining him. He, Luigi, Lucas and Falcon are all pretty much the definition of "secondary".
Exactly. And I think this is proven by the fact that players like ESAM, Ryo, and others consider Corrin a secondary. They are useful is certain specific MUs (like against characters that get walled out by Side-B), but they aren't viable yet as a solo main. I must say, it's actually kind of rare to see a character that so many people secondary but so few actually main. Kind of an interesting situation... It also makes me wonder if some solo Corrin main will ever pop up in the future or if Corrin will go down the path of post-patch Luigi.
() This is a counter-vote. Lucas has a definite niche which separates him from Ness, unlike other clones such as Pit, Link, Lucina, or Doc. The reason is because although Ness is more powerful, he is also more gimpable due to relying on PK Thunder 2 for recovery. This is important because a lot of top- and high-tier characters (,,,,, or even another ) have reliable means of gimping the move and then recovering themselves. Lucas, on the other hand, can recover with his tether grab in a spot where Ness would be doomed. So in a sense he trades power for safety. It's not enough to put him near Ness, but it is enough to keep him where he is. This is another counter-vote. I have to agree: Corrin is "solid", but not good enough to move up a tier. His role is a secondary, not exactly a solo-main tournament winner.
() Even in Guest size this character is a beast. Some of his best combos aren't true in Guest size indeed, but his punish game is still up there. Like I have said before Guest XXXX Brawler is pretty much Mario, with worse neutral, but better punish game. There are a lot of Brawlers placing really high in their regions like Yikarur (haven't found updated PR), Narayan (haven't found updated PR), BigLord (2nd in his region's PR), Horneaus (14th in his region's PR), Z2G (2nd in his regions PR), Sætre (6th in his region's PR) and more (note not all main Brawler, but some of them use them more).)Compared to others here, he just screams out to be the outlier in the group. Tier 4 is more suitable place for the character atm due to his placings and theory considered. He wasn't doing much for most of his existence, and I recall that he only started showing up in top 20s recently. It wasn't too long ago that many people saw him as either low tier or a middling around in mid tier, and there isn't much beyond player skill that suggests that he's a high tier (which is what my perception of t3 is). He isn't a particularly threatening presence in the meta right now, but there is certainly has a lot of upside for the character in the future.
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