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Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE
- Thread starter Browny
- Start date
Luig
Confused
I don't see how a character with worse neutral, kill options, recovery, and kill confirms is better than marcina......
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None of Roy's sourspots combo into anything. Jab doesn't combo into anything past mid percents, and U-air doesn't kill until high percents either, and by that point it can't be comboed into. 1st hit of nair can be comboed into Utilt, but that doesn't kill til later either.
Roy's grab combos are heavily DI dependent, while Marth/Lucina's aren't as affected.
Marth/Lucina have Dthrow Jab / Utilt / Uair, and Marth's kills with tipper, unlike Roy's.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ryochi
Smash Cadet
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- RyochiMayeabara
WHAT IS THIS?!!!
1. Weak hit jab>uair/nair
Boi WHAT?! I know that doesn't work. You're better off using the strong hit (sweetspot) for stuff like that. Weak hit (sourspot) sends them at a bit of an awkward angle. You're not really going to be able to land a nair let alone an Uair.
2. Combos out of grab better than Marcina
His combos are DI dependant while Marcina's kinda aren't (even if they are single hit confirms that honestly works better with marth). Either way that doesn't help how unsafe he is on shield, how poor his range is, and how pretty much anybody who can camp/zone can take him on since Roy simply can't deal with it.
3. Underrated?
He was overrated if anything. People kept talking about how "good" he was and how he could be the "best swordsman" when in reality he's the worst swordsman in the game. Can't space to save his life, DI dependant combos off of throws, has trouble killing, and loses to anyone who can space/camp.
Buff this character.
Turrin
Smash Journeyman
That's not what I meant at all. His jab can almost always lead to Fair high % and Ftilt at low %. The weak hit of his upair (sends opponent slightly upwards) can true combo into Ftilt or Utilt for a kill. His Nair sour-ish spot (not the tipper) can true combo into Dsmash and anyone that doesn't work on can get hit by up and/or forward tilt for a kill.
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Just tested. Not a true combo, and can be avoided with literally ANY DI. If you DI towards the ground, you're too low. If you DI up, you're too high.
Still not a true combo. It can be shielded if you DI towards the ground, and if you DI up, it whiffs.
Not practical. You literally need to be RIGHT next to them in order to hit with Uair on a grounded opponent and finish with Utilt. Ftilt straight-up won't connect at kill percents.
There's only 2 hitboxes, bruh... There's the tipper, and the sweetspot.
I'll give you that. However, it can probs be avoided with proper smash DI / regular DI. In addition. 1st hit Nair is incredibly unsafe on shield. Why would you EVER use that? Too much landing lag, and very, very unsafe on block.
Just stop. Please. I really don't think that you now much about the character
No he has 3 hitboxes on all (if not most) of his moves. Fsmash is a prime example of this;
He has the super power sweet spot
The super normal sweet spot
Then he has the like sourspot tip.
Learn the character
You seem that have missed the word almost
At least he can combo off his throws unlike Marth.
How is he overrated? At first, yes he was, but now, I don't think so. We keep saying his good cause we know he is. Yes, his probably not "the Best Swordsmen" that you seem to claim people are saying, but his not the worst. At all. People just don't understand Roy at all and therefore immediately label him without really understanding him.
Tbh, I reckon even if he is worse than Marth and Lucina (which he could be), there is no way in hell he is 2 tiers worst than them. That is just dumb.
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No... I literally just tested this.
There's a tipper sourspot that does 4%, and a sweetspot on about 2/3 of the sword that does 6%.
F-smash does have 3 hitboxes. Congrats, but we're talking about different moves.
That's not relevant. It's NOT a true combo. You don't even need to DI, you can airdodge out of it at higher percents. And WITH DI, you have ZERO followups.
I don't understand what you mean here. What Luigimaster said is objectively true. He has bad approach options and spacing tools, a worse recovery, and his kill confirms are very unsafe (1st hit nair).
Nearly all of his throw combos are avoidable with proper DI. And Marth/Lucina get things like Dthrow Uair... and Marth's can kill due to tippers.
Ryochi
said that he WAS overrated. WAS. People DID say he was the best swordsman.People keep saying Roy is good, but he has nothing to show for it. In addition to all his flaws, he also has zero results. We have nothing that indicates that he's good.
He IS worse than Marth/Lucina. He has : Worse Recovery/Horizontal Survivability , worse OOS option, terrible/useless sourspots, bad range, bad neutral/approach, bad kill confirms...
He's got his speed and low% combo game and vertical survivability, and that's it. Marth/Lucina are objectively better.
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phire_
Smash Cadet
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Jeez look at all the drama I created...
Anyways, my reasoning for voting up Roy and downvoting Marcina is not that I believe Roy is better than the two, but simply that I think Roy is better than where he's placed now and I don't quite believe Marcina has that much potential.
It's just a personal opinion, albeit with a little lack of knowledge on my part. Calm down guys.
Anyways, my reasoning for voting up Roy and downvoting Marcina is not that I believe Roy is better than the two, but simply that I think Roy is better than where he's placed now and I don't quite believe Marcina has that much potential.
It's just a personal opinion, albeit with a little lack of knowledge on my part. Calm down guys.
. Three. Tho I guess you can only say 2 since they literally do the same damage.Just making a point
He never said it was a true, tho i was very implied to be honest. At actually at times it does lead into Fair. BUT, really only the Tipper will hit and the window is very small for when it happens.
He has a not so good recovery, not worse. Also, he doesn't have bad tools if you know how to use them.
But you can still get combos off them if you read.
Yeah, that only works at low % for Marth. After that no, just no.
Okay, I'll definitely take that one. My mistake. Sorry.
People keep saying Roy is good, but he has nothing to show for it. In addition to all his flaws, he also has zero results. We have nothing that indicates that he's good.
Actually, people do have something to show for it. I can't find it, but someone did post results of Roy mains and they were pretty good. Not like 1st, but definitely not as bad as people claim.
[/quote]
He IS worse than Marth/Lucina. He has : Worse Recovery/Horizontal Survivability , worse OOS option, terrible/useless sourspots, bad range, bad neutral/approach, bad kill confirms...
He's got his speed and low% combo game and vertical survivability, and that's it. Marth/Lucina are objectively better.[/QUOTE]
I said that Roy is probable worse than Marth and Lucina. Maybe. BUT, he is definitely not as bad as people claim he is.
Really think what you want, I just don't care. I'm going to play Roy, I'm going to think his good and that's that
Yes, ^ This so much. I love you already and I have no idea who you are. You're my new favourite person here
Turrin
Smash Journeyman
Just a few additions and I'm out:
The other two hitboxes of N-air do the same damage, but the move can still be spaced to avoid getting grabbed. The buffs helped him out a little with that.
Marth's downthrow to upair combo isn't really a kill option. Once anyone's above like 70% they have all the time in the world to airdodge. Also, with what was said earlier about Marth's sourspots comboing and Roy's not - yes, that's true, but on the other hand, Roy's strong hits combo into each other pretty well, and Marth's tippers certainly don't. When Roy hits a strongspot, he can turn it into something OR kill if that's what he's looking for. If Marth gets a tipper, it does some damage but hits the opponent out of range, so it's kind of just good for killing.
Last thoughts on his neutral - I still contend that it's not the god-awful, unmanagable "get grabbed after every option" piece of trash that people seem to think. He has a sword - that means he can challenge the moves of pretty much everyone that doesn't have one. I think he's completely mediocre on the ground. He's okay approaching with F-air and jumping back. He can bait with Neutral B and B-reverse it. His Dtilt and F-tilt are pretty good walling moves. In the air, he's actually really good at beating out people with F-air and N-air. Lastly, having "ZERO follow ups" out of grabs doesn't mean he can't hit anything out of them ever (No one really insinuated this, I'm just clarifying). His throws put opponents in situations in which DI can be reacted to very easily - this meaning that even if your opponent does DI, it's super simple to see which direction and choose the right follow-up accordingly. Meaning if you've got close to any skill with Roy, his follow-ups kinda are guaranteed.
Anyway. I'm trying not to come across as "OMG ROY'Z GUD GUYZ PLZ", I just still don't think he's dirt bad. Marth/Lucina advocates, I totally get what you're saying. I just wanted to close the gap a little bit.
The other two hitboxes of N-air do the same damage, but the move can still be spaced to avoid getting grabbed. The buffs helped him out a little with that.
Marth's downthrow to upair combo isn't really a kill option. Once anyone's above like 70% they have all the time in the world to airdodge. Also, with what was said earlier about Marth's sourspots comboing and Roy's not - yes, that's true, but on the other hand, Roy's strong hits combo into each other pretty well, and Marth's tippers certainly don't. When Roy hits a strongspot, he can turn it into something OR kill if that's what he's looking for. If Marth gets a tipper, it does some damage but hits the opponent out of range, so it's kind of just good for killing.
Last thoughts on his neutral - I still contend that it's not the god-awful, unmanagable "get grabbed after every option" piece of trash that people seem to think. He has a sword - that means he can challenge the moves of pretty much everyone that doesn't have one. I think he's completely mediocre on the ground. He's okay approaching with F-air and jumping back. He can bait with Neutral B and B-reverse it. His Dtilt and F-tilt are pretty good walling moves. In the air, he's actually really good at beating out people with F-air and N-air. Lastly, having "ZERO follow ups" out of grabs doesn't mean he can't hit anything out of them ever (No one really insinuated this, I'm just clarifying). His throws put opponents in situations in which DI can be reacted to very easily - this meaning that even if your opponent does DI, it's super simple to see which direction and choose the right follow-up accordingly. Meaning if you've got close to any skill with Roy, his follow-ups kinda are guaranteed.
Anyway. I'm trying not to come across as "OMG ROY'Z GUD GUYZ PLZ", I just still don't think he's dirt bad. Marth/Lucina advocates, I totally get what you're saying. I just wanted to close the gap a little bit.
Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Whatever any of you say about Marth and Roy, Marth actually has results that warrant him being where he is. Since the buffs in 1.1.4, Marth has gained a lot more results; Two 17th place placements at Pound, 5th at KTAR XII, and multiple wins or GF placements at locals and lesser known regionals, and I will post proof/examples below:
But what about Roy? I haven't seen, nor can I find any videos of a Roy in any notable placement in a tournament. Roy has also not placed in any relevant tournaments, like Marth has. Tie this in with Roy's DI dependent combos, his lack of safety due to poor sweetspot placement and lag, poor off stage game, sub par recovery, and being generally easy to combo, you have a character that has no reason to be out of the lower tiers what so ever.
That said, I still feel Roy is better than the likes of other low tiers such as Ganon, Zelda and Dedede, just to name a few. However, he still really isn't a good character.
On a side note, with everything Marth has done, there is also no reason to be downvoting him. HE HAS RESULTS! And by comparing him to Roy, Marth's combos are a bit harder/stricter but are not DI dependant, and work when the opponent DI's, has defence and safety due to less lag, autocancels and better range and sweetspot placement, one of the best off stage games, an average recovery move, and he doesn't get combo'd as easily. I know certain people in this thread aren't trying to say Roy is better, but I thought I would best mention this seeing as we are on the topic of the two.
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJp-Y47NsPY
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSBwMlEBpfk
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b03a7geD7xY
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prjyb7l2fZo
But what about Roy? I haven't seen, nor can I find any videos of a Roy in any notable placement in a tournament. Roy has also not placed in any relevant tournaments, like Marth has. Tie this in with Roy's DI dependent combos, his lack of safety due to poor sweetspot placement and lag, poor off stage game, sub par recovery, and being generally easy to combo, you have a character that has no reason to be out of the lower tiers what so ever.
That said, I still feel Roy is better than the likes of other low tiers such as Ganon, Zelda and Dedede, just to name a few. However, he still really isn't a good character.
On a side note, with everything Marth has done, there is also no reason to be downvoting him. HE HAS RESULTS! And by comparing him to Roy, Marth's combos are a bit harder/stricter but are not DI dependant, and work when the opponent DI's, has defence and safety due to less lag, autocancels and better range and sweetspot placement, one of the best off stage games, an average recovery move, and he doesn't get combo'd as easily. I know certain people in this thread aren't trying to say Roy is better, but I thought I would best mention this seeing as we are on the topic of the two.
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Wintermelon43
Smash Champion
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imo Martcina is a little too high, but Roy is fine where he is.
D
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I agree that Roy is fine where he is you ask me. No offense to his mains, but I just don't think he's very good, and the tournament results seem to agree with me.
Browny
Smash Hater
All characters are viable when played by the right person, tier lists are dumb. Smash 4 is perfectly balanced everyone is mid tier.
Wintermelon43
Smash Champion
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So a lot of people have been wondering if Browny is right, and I personally don't think so. I think everyone is high tier.
-ZeRo
D
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Just going to say to everyone sorry for always being go hateful when it comes to my posts in this thread, especially when I disagree with votes other people make. People were honestly right when I said I had a God complex with my opinions, and I don't want that to be the case anymore. I promise not to be a jerk when it comes to asking as to why somebody downvoted or upvoted somebody, this is a community tier list where everyone's opinion is welcome. I tried to suppress that and now I actually feel ****ty over it. I'm sorry.
Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
In my opinion, I don't think Roy is on the same level as the other low tiers, but he certainly is near the bottom of the list. If we look at Roy's placement now, 7th from bottom, I wouldn't put him any lower than 6th from bottom, at all. In turn, I wouldn't put him any higher than 10th from bottom either. I honestly can't see Roy being any higher, especially without results.
Of course, as others have mentioned, 6th from bottom in this games isn't like 6th from bottom in Brawl for example. The viability gap between the characters is a lot smaller now than past games. But please remember, just because the gap is smaller, it doesn't mean everybody is on the same level. Of course there are going to be characters better than others. That's life. It's like in real life, I can do my job, but I am relatively new, and though I can do all my tasks correctly, I perhaps take longer because I don't know all the little shortcuts I could do, so somebody who's worked there for 15 years will be better at it than me because they can do all the little shortcuts or know tasks like second nature. It's like they have more skills and options etc. It doesn't make me bad, but there is still somebody potentially better than me.
Of course, as others have mentioned, 6th from bottom in this games isn't like 6th from bottom in Brawl for example. The viability gap between the characters is a lot smaller now than past games. But please remember, just because the gap is smaller, it doesn't mean everybody is on the same level. Of course there are going to be characters better than others. That's life. It's like in real life, I can do my job, but I am relatively new, and though I can do all my tasks correctly, I perhaps take longer because I don't know all the little shortcuts I could do, so somebody who's worked there for 15 years will be better at it than me because they can do all the little shortcuts or know tasks like second nature. It's like they have more skills and options etc. It doesn't make me bad, but there is still somebody potentially better than me.
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Wintermelon43
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Well, that's how triggering works. You get triggered when somebody upvotes Roy or downvotes Palutena (Srrsly, this happens every time.)
Now if Xandercosm and Mariometeor could just realize this...
D
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I can accept that people don't think Palutena isn't very good at this point, even if I still think she isn't a bottom tier character. I went the wrong way about trying to convknce others she wasn't.
Kaiduru Zeta
Smash Apprentice
Thanks for that. It takes a lot of guts to just stand up and just say sorry.
About the whole Romacina debate, I don't know notable players with Roy. With at least Marth you have Pugwest and a few other players however, Roy has little to no notable players and just really crappy placings. For Lucina though, she's right in the middle of Roy but just one place down. However, I'm just agreeing with everything you guys have stated.
Also, about triggering. I get a little triggered when someone downvotes Wii Fit Trainer so I can understand where Feelicks coming from. Like my friend will get me triggered all the time since he puts Wii Fit Trainer in his bottom ten. But yeah just trying to relate
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ShadowGuy1
Smash Lord
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I think you should question votes, but to the caliber of the argument that just happened. I know that Feelicks apologized, and that was the thing he should do so props to him! If someone makes a vote you disagree with, don't start an argument for crying out loud! Just ask, get your answer, rebuttale. Saying someone with bad because they think Roy is better, or on the same tier as martcina is just plain wrong. Why is it so hard to type on mobile?
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Kaiduru Zeta
Smash Apprentice
I mean we should be able to question people's votes. It doesn't have to go in an all out war. If it's just y'know a casual argument that's healthy since questioning each other and debating with each other about our stances can lead to a healthier metagame and tier list. But I can agree it did go too far.
Possibly big fingers
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ShadowGuy1
Smash Lord
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True. Also, avoid double posting, you might want to delete one of themPossibly big fingers
Galgatha
Smash Journeyman
my last 2 votes,
+1
-1
+1
-1
Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Marth has quite a few players. False, Pugwest, Mr E, all place pretty well on a common basis using him. Ally also uses Marth occasionally, and does well when using him. Even Lucina has more players than Roy, though they never surface much. Brolylegs and Excel_Zero are two of her most notable players if you ask me. Roy doesn't really have anybody. You can't state Sethlon because he played Roy like, one, and that was on release. He has done nothing since. The only other people who I have seen play Roy are NEO and Ryo, but these two also use other characters, including both Marth and Lucina (NEO uses Sheik alongside these 3, and Ryo uses... like, everyone lol). I have seen Ryo use Marth and Lucina more than Roy; I have only seen NEO use Roy once. I have seen his Lucina more than Roy, and Marth more than Lucina.Thanks for that. It takes a lot of guts to just stand up and just say sorry.
About the whole Romacina debate, I don't know notable players with Roy. With at least Marth you have Pugwest and a few other players however, Roy has little to no notable players and just really crappy placings. For Lucina though, she's right in the middle of Roy but just one place down. However, I'm just agreeing with everything you guys have stated.
Also, about triggering. I get a little triggered when someone downvotes Wii Fit Trainer so I can understand where Feelicks coming from. Like my friend will get me triggered all the time since he puts Wii Fit Trainer in his bottom ten. But yeah just trying to relate
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D
Deleted member
Guest
Lucina also has CherubiKnighT, though to my knowledge he doesn't have many notable results. What counts at least is that he's a solo Lucina main sponsored by MVG.
BlazGreen
Smash Journeyman
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That's not really true though.
This is from just a few days ago where he used Roy at Shockwave 75.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
Most of us should get back to voting honestly. We have a lot to go off of from Pound.
ShadowGuy1
Smash Lord
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What I find funny is that mewtwo went to tier 2 before pound voting happened
Kirby Dragons
Smash Hero
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DMWN
Smash Apprentice
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D
Deleted member
Guest
That quote is very important.
In regards to the unnecessarily heated arguments that took place yesterday, the staff will start keeping a closer eye on this thread than usual. It's kind of pointless to hand out infractions at this point, so take this as a verbal warning more than anything.
Was personally asleep most of yesterday, so I apologize for the lack of mod intervention.
This game is pretty well balanced and is very diverse, if the high tier is bursting at it's seams, I think that says a lot about the lower tiers. There's lots to argue about but nothing to really get upset about either (unless you main any of the Miis). When replying to someone do try to show some respect. Call out the argument, not the user.
Was personally asleep most of yesterday, so I apologize for the lack of mod intervention.
This game is pretty well balanced and is very diverse, if the high tier is bursting at it's seams, I think that says a lot about the lower tiers. There's lots to argue about but nothing to really get upset about either (unless you main any of the Miis). When replying to someone do try to show some respect. Call out the argument, not the user.
Turrin
Smash Journeyman
Good to see this whole thing blew over... I actually think it was a healthy discussion - I had to go dig up some character data and lab a bit for it, so it was good for me. Anyway, thought I'd post a spreadsheet of Roy's results from his discord thread. Just the raw data for everyone that was asking.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uINVBF6g0H0zixaQp1oYkYZgg4oMPD4Wf5wlGZpDOq0/edit#gid=0
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uINVBF6g0H0zixaQp1oYkYZgg4oMPD4Wf5wlGZpDOq0/edit#gid=0
+1: She's arguably the best character in the game. No reason for her to be in tier 3; the reason we voted her down was because she doesn't deserve her own tier. +1: Even though the nerfs killed the ladder for the most part, MK still has his BnB up air to SL confirms, amazing edgeguarding, respectable neutral options and a situational ladder at slightly later percents. No way he's not still top 15, and Tyrant is still putting in the work to prove it. +1: Corrin has been getting results as a secondary at all levels of play, and at least in theory has no matchups worse than -1 against the rest of the top 15, similar to Pikachu. +1: Like Corrin, he has no objectively terrible matchup against the top tiers right now. I feel like tiers 1+2, Bayonetta, Corrin, Meta Knight and Greninja solidly round out the current "solo viable" top tier. +1: I said it last week, and I'll say it again: Falco is a serious sleeper right now. His tools aren't bad by any means, people just overlook him for being "too honest."
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Yes, it is.
