Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[RDR7]

Funnily enough, this is actually true.

RDR7 is a Jiggs main ranked 7th on South Carolina PR, and is about to rise on the next season iteration of it. He's beaten players like Rango and Elin, and almost beat ESAM in a close set. CrazieCuban plays Puff here in FL, and Serynder some of you probably know from Xanadu. BrianYDG got 17th at Super Smash Con using Puff as well. She's still a terrible character, but she has at least some results.

Ayyy. Thanks for the shoutout dawg.

 

[Ze Diglett]

+1(#Oops)
+1
+1
+1
-1
I can letand's current placements slide, considering what just happened at Pound. I feel more strongly for these votes anyway.

 

[Djmarcus44]

+1
+1
+ 1
+ 1
+ 1

 

[Rinku リンク]

-See's that is two whole tiers higher than -
*sigh* Here we go again...
+1 Has a strong neutral game and D-throw kill set-up. There's no way he's that low.
+1Has an Up-B kill setup that can KO people earlier than most power characters in the game. Having that alone can't make her that low.
+1Honestly feel like he's been overshadowed since Cloud came out. He's still a solid character with his speed and power when put into the right hands.
+1Combos and Witch Time. Enuff said.
-1Extremely Over-hyped in my honest opinion. He's good but not that good.

On a side note it seems people finally got through their thick skulls that are on equal footing.

 

[Deleted member]

-See's that is two whole tiers higher than -
*sigh* Here we go again...
+1 Has a strong neutral game and D-throw kill set-up. There's no way he's that low.
+1Has an Up-B kill setup that can KO people earlier than most power characters in the game. Having that alone doesn't make her that low.
+1Honestly feel like he's been overshadowed since Cloud came out. He's still a solid character with his speed and power when put into the right hands.
+1Combos and Witch Time. Enuff said.
-1Extremely Over-hyped in my honest opinion. He's good but not that good.

On a side note it seems people finally got through their thick skulls that are on equal footing.

Too bad it's an up-B kill setup that can cost you a stock if you miss it, and if you aren't dumb about misspacing on Zelda's shield she won't be able to land it on anybody competent. Her having an elevator doesn't salvage her from bottom tier.

 

[Rinku リンク]

Too bad it's an up-B kill setup that can cost you a stock if you miss it, and if you aren't dumb about misspacing on Zelda's shield she won't be able to land it on anybody competent. Her having an elevator doesn't salvage her from bottom tier.

Think that goes for a lot of moves that are high-risk reward in general. Smarter Zelda's will only use it when they KNOW it will connect and good ones don't use it OoS often else that would be too predictable. Her neutral game isn't the best but it's still fairly decent imo considering she has a fair amount of spacing tools.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

1:
2:
3:()
4
5:
6:
7:


+- This is just to make sure he does not drop too low. I find it funny how he went to Tier 2 B4 Pound voting came.
-1We need to unclump 4 and 5, time to start.
+1 um what
-1I feel like he has meh theory and results. I know about this ranked Mexico Bowser, but still I feel like he needs more
-1No results that are prominent from my knowledge, and like I said 5 and 4 are clusterd. Same with 3.

 

[Deleted member]

Think that goes for a lot of moves that are high-risk reward in general. Smarter Zelda's will only use it when they KNOW it will connect and good ones don't use it OoS often else that would be too predictable. Her neutral game isn't the best but it's still fairly decent imo considering she has a fair amount of spacing tools.

What spacing tools?

Lightning Kicks are heavily unsafe to use since the sourspots do minimal damage and knockback, the sweetspots have tiny hitboxes and they have a ton of landing lag. Phantom is predictable and slow, and Din's Fire is just outright terrible.

Her neutral is bad because well.. she doesn't have one. Whenever Zelda is doing something, she's committing. Her having bad projectiles means her defensive game is weak, and since her forward and back aerials are basically Knees she has no way to reliably approach or pressure opponents. She's meant to be a defensive character, a glass cannon, but the way her moveset is built along with her mostly sluggish frame data just doesn't support it.

 

[apparently fuz]

While I do agree @Feelicks can come off as pushy sometimes, your outspoken claims tend to offend anyone who dares oppose your beliefs. Feelicks has never (if so, perhaps only once) insulted anyone for not believing in Palutena--I happen to be one of the people who was once on the receiving end of one of his preaches, and yet I see you've caused more discomfort and concern in this thread than any other person here, and I'm sure several can attest to this. Sometimes you behave yourself, but it's more likely that you're going on some prolonged asinine rant about how wonderful or terrible a character is, often insulting others in the process. Hell, I think Lucas is top 25 whereas Feelicks disagrees completely, but you don't see us arguing about it. There needn't be any conversation on this thread anyway according to the original post, so why be so pushy and rude? It's not even so much that you're that much worse than Feelicks was, but the fact that he's been significantly less pushy and a lot politer than many of us in the past few months while you continue to call him out on it for doing nearly the same exact thing (see: your comment on Bayonetta being Tier 3) is grounds for calling you out.

You're not cute, you're not funny, and you're certainly not making yourself out to be very mature, so I suggest you cut it out with the attitude before you make more of an *** of yourself than you already have. And if I get infracted for this post, at least I can say it was worth it.

Bit late to this, but just want to reiterate that debate is healthy and encouraged, but to turn said debate into a game of that consists of throwing mud at each other is something that shouldn't be tolerated. Nobody should be scared of speaking their own opinion, and nobody should be shunning any member to do so.

Either way, I'm gonna pass voting on this because I can already see how the influx of votes will create an even bigger mess than what is currently here.

 

[Munomario777]

-See's that is two whole tiers higher than -
*sigh* Here we go again...

I disagree. While he may pack more power than his semi-clone and has some solid projectiles, Link has the fatal flaw of slugishness – in attacks, movement, and overall frame data. His power is a strength, but his slow attacks hold him back, I feel, in a game where the fastest characters dominate the metagame. His poor mobility when combined with his lackluster Spin Attack make for a poor recovery, worsening his survivability despite his weight (which also makes him susceptible to combos). Toon Link on the other hand has quick movement and attacks, as well as better zoning ability due to his mobility and his projectiles (boomerang in particular is helpful with its returning hitbox). While Link has more raw kill power, his attacks are too slow to land, and too punishable to miss; Tink on the other hand has kill confirms out of super-quick bomb tosses (e.g. bomb to fair) and returning boomerangs, plus a quick, powerful usmash, fair, and an even stronger fsmash. Tink also has better recovery due to his mobility and wall-jump as well as a Spin Attack which reaches further.

TL;DR Link is too slow to put his power to good use, whereas Tink is quicker and has a stronger keep-away game as well as kill confirms out of very quick moves.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I disagree. While he may pack more power than his semi-clone and has some solid projectiles, Link has the fatal flaw of slugishness – in attacks, movement, and overall frame data. His power is a strength, but his slow attacks hold him back, I feel, in a game where the fastest characters dominate the metagame. His poor mobility when combined with his lackluster Spin Attack make for a poor recovery, worsening his survivability despite his weight (which also makes him susceptible to combos). Toon Link on the other hand has quick movement and attacks, as well as better zoning ability due to his mobility and his projectiles (boomerang in particular is helpful with its returning hitbox). While Link has more raw kill power, his attacks are too slow to land, and too punishable to miss; Tink on the other hand has kill confirms out of super-quick bomb tosses (e.g. bomb to fair) and returning boomerangs, plus a quick, powerful usmash, fair, and an even stronger fsmash. Tink also has better recovery due to his mobility and wall-jump as well as a Spin Attack which reaches further.

TL;DR Link is too slow to put his power to good use, whereas Tink is quicker and has a stronger keep-away game as well as kill confirms out of very quick moves.

If we were talking about I'd agree but this is . I am in no means saying he's better than but being two whole tiers apart is just way too far of a gap. Yes he is "slower" but honestly not as slow as most people make him out to be.

Link's first hit of F-air got buffed to the point where it kills earlier than the 2nd hit so bomb -> F-air is just as viable for him. His recovery imo is standard now compared to how horrible it use to be in previous games so he doesn't just fall to his death when he gets launched off stage.

I'll have to disagree that Toon Link's zoning game is better than his considering Link has a considerable amount of range compared to Toon Link. The return hitbox on rang is nice but having a windbox opens a much bigger opportunity for "gimmicks" and in turn bigger plays.

Honestly the "Link is too slow" joke was funny when it was true but now it's just ignorance considering he's A LOT faster than he use to be in previous games and when in the right hands extremely strong.

TL;DR Link isn't as slow as people make him out to be, his zoning game is only slightly inferior if not just as good as Tinks.

 

[Y2Kay]

Toon Link's better mobility allows him to have more bomb setups and do them more reliably. that's a big deal.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

There will always be an argument here

 

[Deleted member]

If we were talking about I'd agree but this is . I am in no means saying he's better than but being two whole tiers apart is just way too far of a gap. Yes he is "slower" but honestly not as slow as most people make him out to be.

Link's first hit of F-air got buffed to the point where it kills earlier than the 2nd hit so bomb -> F-air is just as viable for him. His recovery imo is standard now compared to how horrible it use to be in previous games so he doesn't just fall to his death when he gets launched off stage.

I'll have to disagree that Toon Link's zoning game is better than his considering Link has a considerable amount of range compared to Toon Link. The return hitbox on rang is nice but having a windbox opens a much bigger opportunity for "gimmicks" and in turn bigger plays.

Honestly the "Link is too slow" joke was funny when it was true but now it's just ignorance considering he's A LOT faster than he use to be in previous games and when in the right hands extremely strong.

TL;DR Link isn't as slow as people make him out to be, his zoning game is only slightly inferior if not just as good as Tinks.

These increases aren't particularly meaningful. His mobility is still below-average and he has trouble keeping up with those who can pressure or outspeed him considering his poor CQC. I don't think Link is a bad character, I think he's one of the best low-tiers if you were to ask me. It's just that Toon Link being notably above him in tier lists isn't very hard to see considering he's had a more proven track record, a better MU spread and overall better mobility strats. Toon Link's floatiness and smaller frame makes him harder to combo as well.

 

[Munomario777]

If we were talking about I'd agree but this is . I am in no means saying he's better than but being two whole tiers apart is just way too far of a gap. Yes he is "slower" but honestly not as slow as most people make him out to be.

Link's first hit of F-air got buffed to the point where it kills earlier than the 2nd hit so bomb -> F-air is just as viable for him.

As Y2Kay mentioned, mobility is a key part in this. Toon Link's bread and butter bomb combo is dashing JCT (jump cancel toss; a toss which has less ending lag and allows you to act sooner while carrying dash momentum) -> jumping fair. It's a true combo. Inescapable. I don't think that this is true for Link due to his slow movement speed, but I haven't done a lot of research.

His recovery imo is standard now compared to how horrible it use to be in previous games so he doesn't just fall to his death when he gets launched off stage.

It's still worse than Toon Link's, however – not much denying that when Tink has better jumps, air mobility, a wall-jump, and a Spin Attack with more range.

I'll have to disagree that Toon Link's zoning game is better than his considering Link has a considerable amount of range compared to Toon Link.

Zoning, with Toon Link at least, is done with projectiles, not melee moves. Toon Link's mobility gives him a far better zoning game, since he can create space, maintain it by jumping or running away from the foe while throwing projectiles (JCT allows you to throw a bomb backwards out of a dash), and close the gap when it's time to come in for the kill. Link simply doesn't have the movement speed to make this possible.

The return hitbox on rang is nice but having a windbox opens a much bigger opportunity for "gimmicks" and in turn bigger plays.

I strongly disagree. The thing about the windbox is that the foe can still act. Not only does this give them the ability to dodge or shield any potential follow-up attacks from Link, but it also allows them to use this windbox to their advantage, coming in with a smash attack or other kill move and being pushed towards Link by the boomerang. And unlike Pac-Man, Link can't even make use of this himself.

Toon Link's boomerang, on the other hand, is an actual attack. If your foe is between you and your boomerang, it can hit them right into you and your up smash, forward smash, you name it. It can also save you from pressure by hitting the opponent during their attack and giving Toon Link the advantage. It's also nice for forcing a reaction, since you can read and punish their shield / dodge / etc.

Honestly the "Link is too slow" joke was funny when it was true but now it's just ignorance considering he's A LOT faster than he use to be in previous games and when in the right hands extremely strong.

.07 more dashing speed, .08 more air speed (still with only half the air acceleration of Tink by the by), and a few faster moves are not enough to remedy his still below-average speed in general and the problems that it presents (especially when walking speed and some moves like dash attack have been made even slower). Link is still a slow character, and while he's slightly faster than he was in Brawl, he's still very slow overall compared to the rest of the cast, and struggles as a result.

By contrast, Tink has great mobility – fixing Link's greatest flaw – and still has a lot of power behind him, plus a great keep-away game, and quite a few tricks up his sleeve with his bombs and boomerang. Sure, Link is more powerful and heavier, but Toon Link beats him out by a decent margin in most other attributes, and even those two advantages are somewhat nullified by Tink's quicker-to-start kill confirms and better recovery, respectively.

 

[Y2Kay]

I have noticed this weird trend that Link mains swear up and down that they're not much worse, or even just as good, as Toon Link. I don't know why they have so much bad blood pent up against him.

 

[Deleted member]

I have noticed this weird trend that Link mains swear up and down that they're not much worse, or even just as good, as Toon Link. I don't know why they have so much bad blood pent up against him.

It's because of the Brawl days. was the fourth worst character in the game while was high tier, making Link mains resent him a ton.

 

[DMWN]

I have noticed this weird trend that Link mains swear up and down that they're not much worse, or even just as good, as Toon Link. I don't know why they have so much bad blood pent up against him.

Because Toon Link is ugly

 

[TMNTSSB4]

It's because of the Brawl days. was the fourth worst character in the game while was high tier, making Link mains resent him a ton.

You sure he wasn't just mid tier?

 

[BlueX]

You sure he wasn't just mid tier?

No he was low tier from what i remember in the official Brawl Tier list.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I don't think Link is a bad character, I think he's one of the best low-tiers if you were to ask me. It's just that Toon Link being notably above him in tier lists isn't very hard to see considering he's had a more proven track record, a better MU spread and overall better mobility strats. Toon Link's floatiness and smaller frame makes him harder to combo as well.

I'll take this and call it on the argument. All I was trying to get at. Thank you Feels.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

No he was low tier from what i remember in the official Brawl Tier list.

Toon Link...low tier?

 

[Deleted member]

You sure he wasn't just mid tier?

Link was ranked 35/38 characters in F tier. Toon Link was ranked 13/38 in C+ tier. High-mid, but still had a niche in being one of the few characters to beat the Ice Climbers.

 

[BlueX]

Toon Link...low tier?

Wait toon link? I thought you meant Link. Just ignore my last post then.

 

[Y2Kay]

the last brawl tier list

 

[Deleted member]

the last brawl tier list

For years I still maintain and would've been mid tier characters in Brawl if it weren't for that damn grab release. Makes me sad.

Also... 's fall from grace. Rest in peace, sweet king.

 

[TimG57867]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I had feeling Marth's tipper would keep the Falchions apart but I wanted to take a chance and see if merging them could be justified. I always annoyed me how we'd often waste votes over getting Lucina back to Marth's tier after an update but clearly Marth's tipper being able to kill sooner with the correct spacing and making his aerials and tilts stronger when aimed is enough to put him above Lucina despite her being better equipped to deal with speedy and heavy characters. And don't mention it @Bowserboy3. If you can't stop a fight, next best thing is to get people to stop watching it.

Now for for a couple votes to get me started.

-
+ (This is to ensure that he doesn't drop more than 1 tier. If he doesn't drop more than 1 tier regardless of my vote, than change it to a +)
+
+
+

As for , this is how I feel: As many have stated, Toon Link's better design for the meta and superior results certainly justify him being in a tier above Link. But I actually think Link could potentially make a case for the tier 4. But the thing that I feel holds him back is that unlike , he doesn't have a player making big headway in the U.S. During his time here in the states, Hyuga has been able to give Toon Link quite a bit of attention. But Link doesn't have anyone in the states doing the same. I am aware of Links like Hyrule Hero but I don't believe they've done anything big on a national level or higher. But the reason I feel Link could make a case for Tier 4 is because Izaw's solid 9th placement at B.E.A.S.T 6 (Which was unfortunately drowned out by Greninja hype and happened in Europe. And unlike iStudying I don't think he got to take down any big names on stream). IIRC Toon Link wasn't that far ahead of Link on our list a while ago. He only started to shoot ahead once Hyuga started coming out more, especially after Genesis 3. If Link just had someone in the states who could get a great placing on stream at a U.S national tourney that'd probably turn a few heads. I think he's got the kit to do it but doesn't have the U.S rep to prove it. That's my take

Link was ranked 35/38 characters in F tier. Toon Link was ranked 13/38 in C+ tier. High-mid, but still had a niche in being one of the few characters to beat the Ice Climbers.

Yeah. His kit was actually stronger in that game. But unfortunately, like a like of top, high, and mid tiers with objectively good movesets, he suffered from the common "Can't Handle Syndrome" that screwed over a bunch of other characters like and too.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Are miis 1111 normal size in this?

No, for whatever reason I thought XXXX default size would make sense. They would probably all move up about a tier with all sizes and all moves.

 

[Xandercosm]

To be honest, Tink does the "ranged zoner" archetype so much better than Link. He just feels so much smoother and better designed. No offense to Link mains but that's what I've observed from what I've played of him. I mean, I kind of feel like Tink's current design is how normal Link should have been all along. Strong followups from Bomb and Boomerang and powerful aerials and good mobility as well.

I just feel like Tink is a more refined version of Link that they made after observing Link's flaws from the previous games. He's basically like Link with all the rough edges smoothed out. Hopefully in the next installment of Smash Bros. they re-think Link's design. Maybe he could learn a bit from Tink or even just branch of in a totally different direction with a whole new design.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

+
-

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Link was ranked 35/38 characters in F tier. Toon Link was ranked 13/38 in C+ tier. High-mid, but still had a niche in being one of the few characters to beat the Ice Climbers.

Wait toon link? I thought you meant Link. Just ignore my last post then.

the last brawl tier list

This makes much more sense. Though...

• Weird sering Pit is technically in the exact same spot in Brawl as he is in Smash 4(counting Pit and Dark Pit as one still)
• Lucas SUCKED!
• Mario SUCKED!
• I miss Snake...Snake...SNAAAAAAKE!
• Meta Knight and Ice Climbers were the most broken characters in the whole game
• Oh how Marth, Falco, Dedede, ans Olimar have fallen
• Oh how Mario, Sonic, Falcon, Bowser, Luigi, Lucas, Ness, Link, Samus, Zelda, Expand Dong, Shiek, Yoshi, and Charizard have improved massively(enough)

 

[phire_]

+ (Seriously, how is she not at the #1 spot?)
+
+
-
-

 

[FamilyTeam]

What? Why upvote Roy and Downvote Marcina?
I don't get the logic!
Marth and Lucina are fine where they are, imo...

 

[Y2Kay]

TBH I ain't buying that roy is bottom tier. Being in the last ten spots of the tiers lists is kinda silly to me.

 

[Smudges]

+
-
-

Why? Seriously?
Roy has nothing over those two. Worse recovery, worse OOS options, terrible range, bad approaches/spacing.
Not to mention terrible sourspots. At least Marth's have a use. And tippers are more powerful than Roy's sweetspots as well.

 

[Deleted member]

>upvotes Roy but downvotes Marcina even though Marth got a top 18 placement at Pound this weekend while Roy has done absolutely nothing for almost a year

Why do people still defend this character

 

[Y2Kay]

Why? Seriously?
Roy has nothing over those two. Worse recovery, worse OOS options, terrible range, bad approaches/spacing.
Not to mention terrible sourspots. At least Marth's have a use. And tippers are more powerful than Roy's sweetspots as well.

Roy maybe worse but he has stuff over them. Specifically mobility and grab game. Roy's sour spots are smaller and more forgiving their marth's too.

 

[Deleted member]

Roy maybe worse but he has stuff over them. Specifically mobility and grab game. Roy's sour spots are smaller and more forgiving their marth's too.

Marth's sourspots are safer on hit than Roy's, and combo into themselves. Same can't be said for most of Roy's. Marth's playstyle is more beneficial since his range allows him to space efficiently and get reward off his tippers. Roy is a swordfighter that's forced to fight like a brawler with none of the frame data to support it.

Roy's grab game isn't exceptional by any means. Any threat of his grab disappears past low percents if you know how to DI and tech away from his followups. His ground speed is good I'll give you that, but his amazing air speed is ruined by godawful aerial acceleration.

 

[Smudges]

Roy maybe worse but he has stuff over them. Specifically mobility and grab game. Roy's sour spots are smaller and more forgiving their marth's too.

Maybe so. Roy still has range issues, and a lot less combo potential at mid percents compared with Marth/Lucina. Roy's grab combos are also DI dependent.

 

[Turrin]

Why? Seriously?
Roy has nothing over those two. Worse recovery, worse OOS options, terrible range, bad approaches/spacing.
Not to mention terrible sourspots. At least Marth's have a use. And tippers are more powerful than Roy's sweetspots as well.

>upvotes Roy but downvotes Marcina even though Marth got a top 18 placement at Pound this weekend while Roy has done absolutely nothing for almost a year

Why do people still defend this character

I voted the same, and it makes perfect sense. Marcina's in tier 4 and Roy's in tier 6. Voting up Roy and Marcina down isn't saying he's better than them (he is IMO but I'm not gonna go there right now) it's just saying they shouldn't be that far apart. I seriosuly think people give his speed and power way too little credit. He has a few tools in neutral with weak hit jab/upair/Nair kill confirms. His dash-grab ability is much better, and his combos out of grab are wildly better than Marcina's, they only have a single hit confirm from downthrow at fairly low percents (Roy's got multiple true grab combos at low %). His biggest downside is that almost no one plays him - people thought Metaknight was bad until one guy put him up the tier list singlehandedly, while nothing about the character actually changed. Most underrated char. in the game right now if you ask me.