Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Bowserboy3]

...

I was talking about Bowserboy's list.

Why? Because people are allowed their own opinions, and as such, if they don't agree with yours, please try not to be condescending to others. So what if I think Pikachu is still within the top 5? So what if others want to discuss the viability of low tiers? If you want to try and join in, it would be interesting to see what you think are the top 5 characters, because for the record, I see no reason why Mario can't be considered top 5.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Here we see people argue about the placement of irrelevant low tier heavies while the list has Pika and Mario in top 5 in 2016.

why

And you have a problem with somebody's tier list placements opinion...why?

 

[wedl!!]

Ok, simple.

• Bad spread against relevant. He loses to Rosalina, ZSS, Sonic, Ryu, Sheik, etc. The only "relevant" character he actually beats is Pikachu. He goes even with or loses to a lot of good characters and doesn't start winning a lot until you go further down the tier list (like into the 20s).
• Simplicity. This is literally the same reason Ness dropped off. His meta didn't have a lot of room to grow so he got worse over time. I can guarantee you the same will happen to Mario. The same thing also happened to Melee Mario; he was regarded as a top tier but dropped over time. People adapt. Now, am I saying Mario will become a mid tier? No, far from it. He's still strong but he isn't a top tier threat in the current meta. He's relevant as a pocket character at most levels of play but as a solo main he's not a top tier.
• Results. Marios are just not appearing that much anymore excluding Ally (and pocket Marios, but those barely exist at high levels in exchange for better secondaries). And, as we know, Ally is increasingly uncomfortable with Mario and wants to switch so there goes most of Mario's representation.

There's more specific things about Mario that make him not top tier (like lack of kill setups, reliance on rage, bad edgeguarding against low recoveries, etc) but that's the general idea. The same can apply to Pikachu except replace simplicity with fragility and complication. Pikachu is so light and precise that he requires a ton of skill to play safely and not get blown up with. Also his low-ish reward at high % is somewhat a problem.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Right, so here's my own personal idea of where characters stand as of the latest patch (of course, come Feburary this could change dramatically):

S (Godly): - Unchanged. Sheik and Zamus are still pretty much the dominant forces in the meta, and I really don't see them being threatened by much in the current meta. Maybe if Corrin and Bayonetta turn out to be godly, though, this might change.

A (Excellent): - Also pretty much unchanged, because this is a pretty solid listing. Diddy's not been seeing nearly as much success since the nerfs, so he's the top of A-Bottom for now. Mario's moving down a bit because he's a fundamentally good and solid character, but he's still better than Ness in terms of usability, because he's more generalized.

B (Great): - The Pit duo are preforming better in tournaments than R.O.B, and Ike also preforms better than Wario and R.O.B, too. Otherwise, this is a fairly solid list, too.

C (Good): - And here's the first big change of the list; bumping Charizard to C, and upper C at that. Charizards seem to preform the best out of the superheavies, especially with customs. Even without them, though, Charizard is still the best superheavy character. Not better than Lucario and Greninja, but close. DK's dropped so low because I feel like his good aspects don't make up for his flaws well enough for him to be above Bowser or Charizard in the C-tier.

D (Decent): - The recent buffs Mewtwo has gotten have honestly made him soar up my list. Before the most recent patch, I'd have placed him square in the middle of the E-tier. Thanks to his buffs, he's now top of D-tier for me. Marth and Lucina have dropped here because I don't see them much in tournaments, and the nerfs from Brawl to this game have severely crippled the Hero King, and by extension his doppelganger. Doc is decent enough to avoid bottom, but I think he's still not excellent. Samus scrapes into D because of her versatility making up for her shortcomings, but she's just barely in D.

E (Flawed): - Ganon and Mac make the top of E because, while they do have heavy flaws, I feel that they can, when played well, get around these issues. The others, however, aren't so lucky. Dedede has great range, but is slow and can be easily gimped due to his predictable recovery. Gunner is pretty much just a worse Samus, which is doom for a character. DHD, Zelda and Palutena all share a common problem; they're too hard to master for what little benefit you get.

Mii Brawler, at least without customs, is pretty bad; his recovery is bad, his smashes are laggy and overall he's just not fun to play against a Shiek or Sonic. BUT I think that he's still making up for his flaws with his power and good combo game. It's just a shame his default moves are, well, trash.

F (Trash): - Oh boy, now we're at the real stinkers. These two are so laughably bad that I don't think I've ever seen either of them placing high in a national, at least not from a dedicated main. Jigglypuff is floaty, light and doesn't really have a whole lot of moves that let her play to her strength in air fighting. Not even the almight Rest can salvage her from F-Tier in this game. Had the Miis not been in the game, I'd have ended it there.

But Mii Swordfighter. Oh my sweet Jesus, Mii. Swordfighter. This character is just awful. Terrible frame data, predictable and easily gimped recovery, and completely lacking the projectiles that made the Links so much better. Mii Swordfighter is basically Link without the bombs or bow. Basically, bad. There is literally nothing to redeem default Mii Swordfighter.

 

[Xandercosm]

Ok, simple.

• Bad spread against relevant. He loses to Rosalina, ZSS, Sonic, Ryu, Sheik, etc. The only "relevant" character he actually beats is Pikachu. He goes even with or loses to a lot of good characters and doesn't start winning a lot until you go further down the tier list (like into the 20s).
• Simplicity. This is literally the same reason Ness dropped off. His meta didn't have a lot of room to grow so he got worse over time. I can guarantee you the same will happen to Mario. The same thing also happened to Melee Mario; he was regarded as a top tier but dropped over time. People adapt. Now, am I saying Mario will become a mid tier? No, far from it. He's still strong but he isn't a top tier threat in the current meta. He's relevant as a pocket character at most levels of play but as a solo main he's not a top tier.
• Results. Marios are just not appearing that much anymore excluding Ally (and pocket Marios, but those barely exist at high levels in exchange for better secondaries). And, as we know, Ally is increasingly uncomfortable with Mario and wants to switch so there goes most of Mario's representation.

There's more specific things about Mario that make him not top tier (like lack of kill setups, reliance on rage, bad edgeguarding against low recoveries, etc) but that's the general idea. The same can apply to Pikachu except replace simplicity with fragility and complication. Pikachu is so light and precise that he requires a ton of skill to play safely and not get blown up with. Also his low-ish reward at high % is somewhat a problem.

I think his simpleness is precisely why he's so good. He's super solid. I'd venture to say he's the most solid, all-around character in the game. That's why people say he's top 5. I personally think that's a little high, too, though. I would say he's closer to top 7-8, actually.

 

[blackghost]

I am shocked not to see any push for ryu to be s tier. Character has the best kill setups in the game, a down special that honestlyou lols a huge portion of the cast, good recovery, shield break setups, seriously remind me why this character isn't so tier? And don't say learning curve characters potential isn't judged by that.
Looking at trela, hooded, venom, ect this character is absolutely insane.

 

[atreyujames]

I'm pretty sure there is a user who comes here quite often votes Robin down for example)

You called? . Pretty sure I'm the only one on here who consistently downvotes Robin

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Right, so here's my own personal idea of where characters stand as of the latest patch (of course, come Feburary this could change dramatically):

S (Godly): - Unchanged. Sheik and Zamus are still pretty much the dominant forces in the meta, and I really don't see them being threatened by much in the current meta. Maybe if Corrin and Bayonetta turn out to be godly, though, this might change.

A (Excellent): - Also pretty much unchanged, because this is a pretty solid listing. Diddy's not been seeing nearly as much success since the nerfs, so he's the top of A-Bottom for now. Mario's moving down a bit because he's a fundamentally good and solid character, but he's still better than Ness in terms of usability, because he's more generalized.

B (Great): - The Pit duo are preforming better in tournaments than R.O.B, and Ike also preforms better than Wario and R.O.B, too. Otherwise, this is a fairly solid list, too.

C (Good): - And here's the first big change of the list; bumping Charizard to C, and upper C at that. Charizards seem to preform the best out of the superheavies, especially with customs. Even without them, though, Charizard is still the best superheavy character. Not better than Lucario and Greninja, but close. DK's dropped so low because I feel like his good aspects don't make up for his flaws well enough for him to be above Bowser or Charizard in the C-tier.

D (Decent): - The recent buffs Mewtwo has gotten have honestly made him soar up my list. Before the most recent patch, I'd have placed him square in the middle of the E-tier. Thanks to his buffs, he's now top of D-tier for me. Marth and Lucina have dropped here because I don't see them much in tournaments, and the nerfs from Brawl to this game have severely crippled the Hero King, and by extension his doppelganger. Doc is decent enough to avoid bottom, but I think he's still not excellent. Samus scrapes into D because of her versatility making up for her shortcomings, but she's just barely in D.

E (Flawed): - Ganon and Mac make the top of E because, while they do have heavy flaws, I feel that they can, when played well, get around these issues. The others, however, aren't so lucky. Dedede has great range, but is slow and can be easily gimped due to his predictable recovery. Gunner is pretty much just a worse Samus, which is doom for a character. DHD, Zelda and Palutena all share a common problem; they're too hard to master for what little benefit you get.

Mii Brawler, at least without customs, is pretty bad; his recovery is bad, his smashes are laggy and overall he's just not fun to play against a Shiek or Sonic. BUT I think that he's still making up for his flaws with his power and good combo game. It's just a shame his default moves are, well, trash.

F (Trash): - Oh boy, now we're at the real stinkers. These two are so laughably bad that I don't think I've ever seen either of them placing high in a national, at least not from a dedicated main. Jigglypuff is floaty, light and doesn't really have a whole lot of moves that let her play to her strength in air fighting. Not even the almight Rest can salvage her from F-Tier in this game. Had the Miis not been in the game, I'd have ended it there.

But Mii Swordfighter. Oh my sweet Jesus, Mii. Swordfighter. This character is just awful. Terrible frame data, predictable and easily gimped recovery, and completely lacking the projectiles that made the Links so much better. Mii Swordfighter is basically Link without the bombs or bow. Basically, bad. There is literally nothing to redeem default Mii Swordfighter.

Duck Hunt needs to gain some more love

Besides that, you might have the best tier list here

Ok, simple.

• Bad spread against relevant. He loses to Rosalina, ZSS, Sonic, Ryu, Sheik, etc. The only "relevant" character he actually beats is Pikachu. He goes even with or loses to a lot of good characters and doesn't start winning a lot until you go further down the tier list (like into the 20s).
• Simplicity. This is literally the same reason Ness dropped off. His meta didn't have a lot of room to grow so he got worse over time. I can guarantee you the same will happen to Mario. The same thing also happened to Melee Mario; he was regarded as a top tier but dropped over time. People adapt. Now, am I saying Mario will become a mid tier? No, far from it. He's still strong but he isn't a top tier threat in the current meta. He's relevant as a pocket character at most levels of play but as a solo main he's not a top tier.
• Results. Marios are just not appearing that much anymore excluding Ally (and pocket Marios, but those barely exist at high levels in exchange for better secondaries). And, as we know, Ally is increasingly uncomfortable with Mario and wants to switch so there goes most of Mario's representation.

There's more specific things about Mario that make him not top tier (like lack of kill setups, reliance on rage, bad edgeguarding against low recoveries, etc) but that's the general idea. The same can apply to Pikachu except replace simplicity with fragility and complication. Pikachu is so light and precise that he requires a ton of skill to play safely and not get blown up with. Also his low-ish reward at high % is somewhat a problem.

Simple is good...look at Pit for example

 

[Dusk Pit]

Last time I checked, arrows are way more important than any of the arms. Pit, unlike Dark Pit, can easily gimp a man with the weakest of arrows. Sure you can play both Pits, but the original got more results, a more balanced MU sheet,*a better personality*, etc. So immature just ask you one last question about this specific topic, and I don't expect you to answer(unless you're just waiting for me to finish this specific comment, like a creeper or whatever those green bomb things are called from Minecraft)but...How the hell do you not see the impotence of arrows? Anything afterwards is me replying to the rest of your post...anyways

•You saying I'm ignoring the buffs for Pittoo makes me think you're only saying everything you've said I based on just an Electrobuff.

•Did...did you really use an alternativery costume as an example? Please tell me that you didn't just say that Pit and Meta Knight are the same characters? Because Alph is a bad example, while Pit/Meta Knight are pretty much nothing alike(besides them being Sakurai's kids of course).

•Why do you, out of all the other Pit mains who think the two should be seperated(even if it's by 1 or 2 spaces)or Pit's better in general, only have arguments with me? All it took was an electrobuff for Dark Pit for me to even notice you(since I'm always more focused on the Pit instead of the edge)and vice versa for you to all of a sudden have alot of arguments over/about/for Pit vs Dark Pit("Pit's better", "Dark Pit still needs some results once again if he wants people to actually use him in major tournaments and not be seen as just an edgy Pit", etc.); Everytime, while I back myself up with more than just Arrows or Upperdash, you always bring up the Electroshock and how much Dark Pit is edgy and awesome and edgy again(sure there's the whole "Pit and Dark Pit are still fully equal to eachother", but...not really anymore). Can we just have a normal *Non Dark Pit vs Pit Related* conversation about...normal things instead of Pit vs Dark Pit conversation #9001?


this is where I drop the mic,but there isn't a mic to be dropped,it's quite sad how the mic is gone,I bet that anyone who reads this,won't notice the color pattern,that I currently have going on,up in here up in here.

Ok, so first of all, you are asking me why I only have arguments with you? Maybe because you are the one who replied to my post, not the other way round. Just ignore them if you don't wanna argue, don't blame me.

Your question about the arrows: quite interesting that you think his arrows are impotence (and I assume you meant Dark Pit). I'd quite frankly like to know why do you think this way but then again, I don't really care. Yes Pit can gimp and pressure people better off stage but don't underestimate Dark Pit's arrows either. His arrows are stronger, faster and KO better. Besides, arrows rarely gimp good players. They both have their uses and I don't know how the hell you don't see that. Ftilt on the other hand... Dark Pit's is inferior to Pit's...

Arrows being more important than side b? Of course you are gonna say this if you spam arrows alot but never use side b. It really depends on your playstyle so you might wanna check that again. though, It's pretty safe to say that Dark Pit's side b is almost always the better choise.

err... No, I didn't say MK and Pit are the same...
I intentionally exaggerated when comparing Alph and Olimar to Pits because it's not really that far fetched. Dark Pit was originally intended to be an alternat costume but he ended up having his own character slot with only 3 differences.

I have been talking about electroshock alot because the buff was a pretty big deal, just like Nairo and Zero said but you are the one praising Pit all the time and claiming how much better he is (just like in that post), not me so don't lie and accuse me for doing that please. As I already said, I think they are equal and that's that.

And I don't think we can have "normal" discussions giving our glaringly different opinions about everything.

 

[Routa]

But Mii Swordfighter. Oh my sweet Jesus, Mii. Swordfighter. This character is just awful. Terrible frame data, predictable and easily gimped recovery, and completely lacking the projectiles that made the Links so much better. Mii Swordfighter is basically Link without the bombs or bow. Basically, bad. There is literally nothing to redeem default Mii Swordfighter

So... Top lvl edgeguarding game and above average combo game are nothing? His recovery is very linear I give you that, but he has multiple recovery options compared to Ganondorf, DDD or other Miis. About the combos FF Fair -> D-tilt/Jab1 -> Grab -> D-throw -> Uair is a thing. Also you wont be catching Swordfighter's landing. Go ahead and challenge his Dair. Very few moves can beat it (Cloud's Uair, Zelda/Sheik Up-b and Counters). Yes he is bad in comparison to rest of the cast (if forced to use Guest 1111), but claiming him/her/it it to be worse than Jigglypuff or Brawler... It is like claiming Roy to be in the same tier as Greninja... Oh wait... Also from your list Pit(s) and Wario are the only characters that are solo viable from the B tier of yours.

I could write more, but I'm on my phone atm so...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I am shocked not to see any push for ryu to be s tier. Character has the best kill setups in the game, a down special that honestlyou lols a huge portion of the cast, good recovery, shield break setups, seriously remind me why this character isn't so tier? And don't say learning curve characters potential isn't judged by that.
Looking at trela, hooded, venom, ect this character is absolutely insane.

Unlike Sheik and Zero Suit Samus, Ryu lacks the mobility that they have, and is arguably one of the hardest characters to utilize efficiently. You really need to learn how to use Ryu's button command attacks properly if you want him to be at his best, which is something that Sheik and Zero Suit Samus don't have to deal with at all. As such, that high degree of difficulty, along with the fact that he's not all that speedy (Ryu can't even outrun Duck Hunt), and has the worst air acceleration of all the fighters, are flaws that can pretty much keep Ryu away from the S-tier.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Ok, so first of all, you are asking me why I only have arguments with you? Maybe because you are the one who replied to my post, not the other way round. Just ignore them if you don't wanna argue, don't blame me.

Your question about the arrows: quite interesting that you think his arrows are impotence (and I assume you meant Dark Pit). I'd quite frankly like to know why do you think this way but then again, I don't really care. Yes Pit can gimp and pressure people better off stage but don't underestimate Dark Pit's arrows either. His arrows are stronger, faster and KO better. Besides, arrows rarely gimp good players. They both have their uses and I don't know how the hell you don't see that. Ftilt on the other hand... Dark Pit's is inferior to Pit's...

Arrows being more important than side b? Of course you are gonna say this if you spam arrows alot but never use side b. It really depends on your playstyle so you might wanna check that again. though, It's pretty safe to say that Dark Pit's side b is almost always the better choise.

err... No, I didn't say MK and Pit are the same...
I intentionally exaggerated when comparing Alph and Olimar to Pits because it's not really that far fetched. Dark Pit was originally intended to be an alternat costume but he ended up having his own character slot with only 3 differences.

I have been talking about electroshock alot because the buff was a pretty big deal, just like Nairo and Zero said but you are the one praising Pit all the time and claiming how much better he is (just like in that post), not me so don't lie and accuse me for doing that please. As I already said, I think they are equal and that's that.

And I don't think we can have "normal" discussions giving our glaringly different opinions about everything.

Won't read, I already know you'll continue it...let it die

 

[Djmarcus44]

Right, so here's my own personal idea of where characters stand as of the latest patch (of course, come Feburary this could change dramatically):

S (Godly): - Unchanged. Sheik and Zamus are still pretty much the dominant forces in the meta, and I really don't see them being threatened by much in the current meta. Maybe if Corrin and Bayonetta turn out to be godly, though, this might change.

A (Excellent): - Also pretty much unchanged, because this is a pretty solid listing. Diddy's not been seeing nearly as much success since the nerfs, so he's the top of A-Bottom for now. Mario's moving down a bit because he's a fundamentally good and solid character, but he's still better than Ness in terms of usability, because he's more generalized.

B (Great): - The Pit duo are preforming better in tournaments than R.O.B, and Ike also preforms better than Wario and R.O.B, too. Otherwise, this is a fairly solid list, too.

C (Good): - And here's the first big change of the list; bumping Charizard to C, and upper C at that. Charizards seem to preform the best out of the superheavies, especially with customs. Even without them, though, Charizard is still the best superheavy character. Not better than Lucario and Greninja, but close. DK's dropped so low because I feel like his good aspects don't make up for his flaws well enough for him to be above Bowser or Charizard in the C-tier.

D (Decent): - The recent buffs Mewtwo has gotten have honestly made him soar up my list. Before the most recent patch, I'd have placed him square in the middle of the E-tier. Thanks to his buffs, he's now top of D-tier for me. Marth and Lucina have dropped here because I don't see them much in tournaments, and the nerfs from Brawl to this game have severely crippled the Hero King, and by extension his doppelganger. Doc is decent enough to avoid bottom, but I think he's still not excellent. Samus scrapes into D because of her versatility making up for her shortcomings, but she's just barely in D.

E (Flawed): - Ganon and Mac make the top of E because, while they do have heavy flaws, I feel that they can, when played well, get around these issues. The others, however, aren't so lucky. Dedede has great range, but is slow and can be easily gimped due to his predictable recovery. Gunner is pretty much just a worse Samus, which is doom for a character. DHD, Zelda and Palutena all share a common problem; they're too hard to master for what little benefit you get.

Mii Brawler, at least without customs, is pretty bad; his recovery is bad, his smashes are laggy and overall he's just not fun to play against a Shiek or Sonic. BUT I think that he's still making up for his flaws with his power and good combo game. It's just a shame his default moves are, well, trash.

F (Trash): - Oh boy, now we're at the real stinkers. These two are so laughably bad that I don't think I've ever seen either of them placing high in a national, at least not from a dedicated main. Jigglypuff is floaty, light and doesn't really have a whole lot of moves that let her play to her strength in air fighting. Not even the almight Rest can salvage her from F-Tier in this game. Had the Miis not been in the game, I'd have ended it there.

But Mii Swordfighter. Oh my sweet Jesus, Mii. Swordfighter. This character is just awful. Terrible frame data, predictable and easily gimped recovery, and completely lacking the projectiles that made the Links so much better. Mii Swordfighter is basically Link without the bombs or bow. Basically, bad. There is literally nothing to redeem default Mii Swordfighter.

Gunner is not a worse Samus at all. Gunner's neutral game is clearly superior to Samus's (because gundashing gives Gunner better mobility, and Gunner's fair is has more range Samus's Zair. Gunner also has more options than Samus in the neutral), and Gunner doesn't have as many moveset issues as Samus. Samus is better at combos and tech chases because she has more damage output. Their disadvantage states are around even with a slight edge to Samus. This is because she is better at breaking combos and recovering, while Gunner is harder to hit and better at landing. The main thing that separates them is usage with Samus having more results than Gunner. The two characters have different styles and different strengths.

I also agree with Routa that Swordfighter is better than Brawler. Mii Brawler and Mii Swordfighter should switch places at least. 1111 Brawler has the fewest results in the game by far, and the character has a substandard neutral, advantage and disadvantage (1111 Brawler actually has killing problems due to the lack of a kill confirm or kill setup).

By the way, DK and Bowser are better than Charizard due to them having more reliable combos and kill confirms (Bowser and DK also have more results than Charizard). In fact, Charizard should be in your D tier.

Bowserboy3 , ROM has been getting some results for Gunner in Japan (This is why Japan has Gunner in the 30-36th range on their tier list). As I said recently, ROM also placed well in Wombo Wednesday (the 129 man tournament before Genesis 3).

 

[itsmeMOB]

IMO

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:

????:

 

[TMNTSSB4]

IMO

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:

It's a meh at best. Dastardly Ridleylash still has the best one.

 

[AJb1205]

IMO

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:

????:

Jiggly can't be C- xd At least C+, and imo cloud could be higher.

 

[itsmeMOB]

It's a meh at best. Dastardly Ridleylash still has the best one.

Honestly, we can all agree on the top tier and A characters in the game. The rest is very much up for debate. Let me edit mine, though, I'm missing some characters.

Jiggly can't be C- xd At least C+, and imo cloud could be higher.

Is she better or worse than that? She just feels pretty bad in this game overall, they killed a lot of what made her good in the air.

Cloud still has only been out for a month. I had trouble placing him but he is definitely in B tier or higher. I've been playing a lot of Cloud and he has a lot of upside, but there is a downside with his recovery and some of his moves being pretty slow.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Jiggly is definitely bottom of the list, honestly. Nobody really pushes her because she's bad. Her attacks are decent in the air, but she's so light and floaty that she takes far less effort to get knocked off a stage than she has to put in getting someone else off.

Sing is garbo as ever, Rest is useless because it's not nearly as effective as it was in previous games...there's almost nothing I find about Jigglypuff that I can even like. The biggest reason Swordfighter is below her is because Swordfighter is basically Link without everything that makes Link good.

As for Cloud....that's where I'm not certain. He's definitely great, but he's got some big problems that cripple other characters (predicable recovery that's also not very good). He's top half of the list for sure, but I'm not really sure where in that half he stands, at least as of now.

 

[itsmeMOB]

Give it a few months and we'll find out where Cloud is. Overall he is a very good character in the meta, but his recovery is a huge flaw. Limit Break is absoultely ridiculous and gives him a ton more kill options that aren't his smashes.

 

[blackghost]

J

Unlike Sheik and Zero Suit Samus, Ryu lacks the mobility that they have, and is arguably one of the hardest characters to utilize efficiently. You really need to learn how to use Ryu's button command attacks properly if you want him to be at his best, which is something that Sheik and Zero Suit Samus don't have to deal with at all. As such, that high degree of difficulty, along with the fact that he's not all that speedy (Ryu can't even outrun Duck Hunt), and has the worst air acceleration of all the fighters, are flaws that can pretty much keep Ryu away from the S-tier.

Ryu mobility is fine fadc is absolutely amazing. Smash players are the only players in any game I've seen say "because a character is hard to use that's a negative."
Tier lists don't take human error into account just the characters assets and flaws. Ryu flaws as you claim are learning curve (not part of a tier grade) and air mobility ND ground mobility. Ryu doesn't have any issues with movement focus dashes mix up movement and allow ryu to traverse a stage very quickly and set up to unique pressure. Your analysis is shallow. Ryu is an s tier character.
furthermore ryu is the ONLY character with garanteed kill combos conversions. did you just whiff? 2 frame dtilt punish converts to shoryuken for the kill at around 60 percent.

 

[Xandercosm]

Jiggly can't be C- xd At least C+, and imo cloud could be higher.

She's the worst character in the game, man. I think it should literally be illegal to play with that trash bag.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Jiggly can't be C- xd At least C+, and imo cloud could be higher.

Yes Ik opinions are a thing, but puff is bottom tier. Not on the same level of kirby

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Honestly, we can all agree on the top tier and A characters in the game. The rest is very much up for debate. Let me edit mine, though, I'm missing some characters.

The top tier and high tier is reasonable definitely

She's the worst character in the game, man. I think it should literally be illegal to play with that trash bag.

No love for the Puff? Good.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I think it should literally be illegal to play with that trash bag.

Is that REALLY neccesary??????????????????? Clearly you need to see more about Jigglypuff if you think she's THAT bad. You litertatly just insulted everyone that mains or secondaries her.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Is that REALLY neccesary??????????????????? Clearly you need to see more about Jigglypuff if you think she's THAT bad. You litertatly just insulted everyone that mains or secondaries her.

Agreed, puff is BAD like imo bottom 5, potentially worst, but that really is disrespectful

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

She's the worst character in the game, man. I think it should literally be illegal to play with that trash bag.

Okay that's quite low and very unnecessary. Jigglypuff may be a poor character, but that doesn't really give you the right to call it garbage in front of other users.

 

[Xandercosm]

Okay that's quite low and very unnecessary. Jigglypuff may be a poor character, but that doesn't really give you the right to call it garbage in front of other users.

Seriously man, I'm just voicing my opinion on the character. I think she's the worst character in the game. You can disagree but I don't deserve an infraction for having my own opinion. I think you need to chill the heck out because you're really making this discussion boring and lame. It's like having your mom moderating your hangout session with your best friend.

As Sonic always says, you're uncool and you need to step it up!

 

[Deleted member]

IMO

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:

????:

I respectfully disagree with a few things on your list, I'll point them out. I know it only goes down to C- so you don't really consider anybody at the bottom absolute trash tier, but yeah.

• doesn't deserve to be so low, in my opinion. He has much better results than characters you put above him, such as, , and .
  
• Are the Miis meant to be 1111? Because I don't see how Brawler is better than anybody below him.
• really isn't better than , or . He has a very flawed neutral that hurts him a lot as a character and poor results outside of what Keitaro's done with him.
  
• is definitely not a top 5 character even if he's indeed very good. His gameplan is too simplistic compared to the other top tiers, and suffers from a good amount of flaws other high tiers don't.

Just a few things I wanted to point out. Really don't want to be nitpicky at all but I just noticed those few things.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Seriously man, I'm just voicing my opinion on the character. I think she's the worst character in the game. You can disagree but I don't deserve an infraction for having my own opinion. I think you need to chill the heck out because you're really making this discussion boring and lame. It's like having your mom moderating your hangout session with your best friend.

As Sonic always says, you're uncool and you need to step it up!

No, your the one saying it should be illegal to play a character if they are bad?!??!?! Ok opinions are a thing, but you are also ******** on other peoples opinion about yours. No character should be illegal to play if they are BAD. Brawl Gannondorf was allowed and Smash 4 Puff > Gannon Brawl

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Seriously man, I'm just voicing my opinion on the character. I think she's the worst character in the game. You can disagree but I don't deserve an infraction for having my own opinion. I think you need to chill the heck out because you're really making this discussion boring and lame. It's like having your mom moderating your hangout session with your best friend.

As Sonic always says, you're uncool and you need to step it up!

There's a nicer way to make your statement though. While it's fine to think that Jigglypuff is the worst fighter, adding insult to injury by saying that it should be put in a trash bag is highly unwarranted, as it can make the Jigglypuff players feel a lot worse.

 

[Deleted member]

Seriously man, I'm just voicing my opinion on the character. I think she's the worst character in the game. You can disagree but I don't deserve an infraction for having my own opinion. I think you need to chill the heck out because you're really making this discussion boring and lame. It's like having your mom moderating your hangout session with your best friend.

As Sonic always says, you're uncool and you need to step it up!

I know I may be the pot calling the kettle black in this situation due to how I've acted in regards to Jiggs before, but it doesn't give you licence to say it should be illegal to play as her. Whether or not she's a bad character, she has fans and dedicated players and you gotta deal with that. There was also no need to be so passive-aggressive in this post after you got infracted over something you did wrong, but that's just my two cents.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Seriously man, I'm just voicing my opinion on the character. I think she's the worst character in the game. You can disagree but I don't deserve an infraction for having my own opinion. I think you need to chill the heck out because you're really making this discussion boring and lame. It's like having your mom moderating your hangout session with your best friend.

As Sonic always says, you're uncool and you need to step it up!

THAT Isn't the problem. The real problem is

I think it should literally be illegal to play with that trash bag.

This is basicially insulting people that use Jigglypuff by saying they shoudn't be allowed to use her, basicially saying they're idiots for using her, and that she is so bad she deserves to be banned. Basicially saying she litertatly is so bad, she basicially sits there and does nothing. You just insulted the character, and anyone who mains, secondaries, heck, even POCKETS her.

THAT is the problem, and you defitenly deserve an infraction

 

[TMNTSSB4]

She's the worst character in the game, man. I think it should literally be illegal to play with that trash bag.

As ****ed up as this is, you're way to damn savage man...way to savage

I know I may be the pot calling the kettle black in this situation due to how I've acted in regards to Jiggs before, but it doesn't give you licence to say it should be illegal to play as her. Whether or not she's a bad character, she has fans and dedicated players and you gotta deal with that. There was also no need to be so passive-aggressive in this post after you got infracted over something you did wrong, but that's just my two cents.

THAT Isn't the problem. The real problem is

This is basicially insulting people that use Jigglypuff by saying they shoudn't be allowed to use her, basicially saying they're idiots for using her, and that she is so bad she deserves to be banned. Basicially saying she litertatly is so bad, she basicially sits there and does nothing. You just insulted the charact, and anyone who mains, secondaries, heck, even POCKETS her.

THAT is the problem, and you defitenly deserve an infraction

You guys really need to go take a little nap, have your super smart brains take a...rest

 

[itsmeMOB]

I respectfully disagree with a few things on your list, I'll point them out. I know it only goes down to C- so you don't really consider anybody at the bottom absolute trash tier, but yeah.

• doesn't deserve to be so low, in my opinion. He has much better results than characters you put above him, such as, , and .
  
• Are the Miis meant to be 1111? Because I don't see how Brawler is better than anybody below him.
• really isn't better than , or . He has a very flawed neutral that hurts him a lot as a character and poor results outside of what Keitaro's done with him.
  
• is definitely not a top 5 character even if he's indeed very good. His gameplan is too simplistic compared to the other top tiers, and suffers from a good amount of flaws other high tiers don't.

Just a few things I wanted to point out. Really don't want to be nitpicky at all but I just noticed those few things.

Some of these are from my experiences too. I haven't seen too many Robins get better results than above. I wanted to throughly edit it because I wasn't sure where to place a lot of the lower characters.

The Miis are a weird situation in itself but Brawler is the best one of all of them.

Again, I wasn't sure about the placement of a lot of these because I didn't order them fully but I think Falco has a lot better tools than some of them and based on my experiences.

Ness is good, he is A tier but I base this on some results and how he works in the game. He is top 10 for me indeed, but he could reach the top 5 if given more results. I would honestly switch around him and Sonic if given.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

This is my tier list based off of not knowing jack **** about half of the roster, and not having anyone in order(if I'm missing anyone, tell me)

S:
A+:
A:
Between A and A-:and(I didn't know where to put these two, do they're in their own little tier placement)
A-:
B+:
B:/
B-:/
C:
D:
F:
The IDK Tier List:/

 

[Djmarcus44]

The Miis are a weird situation in itself but Brawler is the best one of all of them.

You have the order of the Miis backwards. Mii Brawler is definitely the worst of the Miis when they are forced to play 1111. This is because 1111 Brawler has very few results, and the character has considerable problems in every aspect of the game. 1111 Brawler's neutral is not that good because the character doesn't have much range (shotput is too slow to be used in the neutral very often, and Brawler's aerials don't have too much range). Mii Brawler's advantage state is not very good because Brawler lacks reliable options to kill an opponent, and Brawler doesn't have good combos past mid percents. Mii Brawler's disadvantage state is not that good, because he/she has one of the worst recoveries in the game. Mii Gunner and Mii Swordfighter have more tournament wins than Brawler when forced to use 1111. This statement is widely agreed upon by most Brawler mains.

Also Mii Gunner should be ahead of Mii Swordfighter now because Mii Gunner has more results than Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner has a better neutral and disadvantage than Mii Swordfighter. While Swordfighter has a better combo game than Gunner, it is not enough to make up for the fact that Gunner's neutral is much stronger than Swordfighter 's.

Currently it seems that EVO is the only major that will allow Miis to have their full movesets. Regardless of whether or not the Miis are allowed there full movesets, Gunner and Swordfighter should be higher on your list (especially Gunner since the character has been getting some results recently).

 

[blackghost]

You have the order of the Miis backwards. Mii Brawler is definitely the worst of the Miis when they are forced to play 1111. This is because 1111 Brawler has very few results, and the character has considerable problems in every aspect of the game. 1111 Brawler's neutral is not that good because the character doesn't have much range (shotput is too slow to be used in the neutral very often, and Brawler's aerials don't have too much range). Mii Brawler's advantage state is not very good because Brawler lacks reliable options to kill an opponent, and Brawler doesn't have good combos past mid percents. Mii Brawler's disadvantage state is not that good, because he/she has one of the worst recoveries in the game. Mii Gunner and Mii Swordfighter have more tournament wins than Brawler when forced to use 1111. This statement is widely agreed upon by most Brawler mains.

Also Mii Gunner should be ahead of Mii Swordfighter now because Mii Gunner has more results than Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner has a better neutral and disadvantage than Mii Swordfighter. While Swordfighter has a better combo game than Gunner, it is not enough to make up for the fact that Gunner's neutral is much stronger than Swordfighter 's.

Currently it seems that EVO is the only major that will allow Miis to have their full movesets. Regardless of whether or not the Miis are allowed there full movesets, Gunner and Swordfighter should be higher on your list (especially Gunner since the character has been getting some results recently).

what is the gunner default? is it the zelda like side b, grenade, and shine? its nuetruel is pretty good with those on. but once aain i dont know if that 1111 i personally dont think miis should be restricted but that isn't the point of ths
top 5 currently shiek zss ryu metaknight rosaluma

 

[Djmarcus44]

what is the gunner default? is it the zelda like side b, grenade, and shine? its nuetruel is pretty good with those on. but once aain i dont know if that 1111 i personally dont think miis should be restricted but that isn't the point of ths
top 5 currently shiek zss ryu metaknight rosaluma

Gunner's 1111 moveset is charge blast as a neutral b, a weaker version of charge shot with much less endlag, flame pillar as a side b (a move that is like Arcfire only it has less endlag, but it only hits once and it does not set up for as many combos), Lunar Launch as an up b (similar to elwind, but it only uses one projectile), and echo reflector as down b (very similar to fox's reflector). While I also think that the Mii's should be allowed to use their best movesets, most tournaments will only allow 1111.

 

[Bowserboy3]

This is my tier list based off of not knowing jack **** about half of the roster, and not having anyone in order(if I'm missing anyone, tell me)

S:
A+:
A:
Between A and A-:and(I didn't know where to put these two, do they're in their own little tier placement)
A-:
B+:
B:/
B-:/
C:
D:
F:
The IDK Tier List:/

Overall, that's a decent list! But...

Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but Lucina really isn't that far away from marth. B- tier at worst if Marth is in B (which I think is a spot on place for him). Samus really isn't that low down, and I think Mewtwo can go higher now thanks to his buffs (notable things thanks to the buffs include actual true combos with aerials, and Fair that is +2 safe on shield). Finally, just out of interest, I just want to ask you why you put Lucas so high up? I don't know huge amounts about him, but I am pretty sure he isn't that far up. What was your reasoning for that?

Everything else seems fair. A couple of spots could shift around in my views but overall the general idea is pretty good!

 

[Xandercosm]

you deserve a (temporaily) ban.

Cuff me, guys, I'm ready. No, actually I did get an infraction. I have no idea why it didn't show up there. It really shouldn't be unbelievable to you, though, considering Mario & Sonic Guy gives out warnings/infractions as he pleases as if they mean nothing.

I think everyone took my comment the wrong way. The same thing has happened multiple times in the last 50, or so, pages. The internet makes it hard to convey certain points. You guys took what I said far too literally because of that. I actually didn't even realize what you guys thought I meant until a couple posts in. Everyone assumed that I was saying "legal" as in "Smash legal". Like, following by competitive Smash's rules.

I was really joking (as always) because I meant "government legal". Not "Smash legal". I really should just stop cracking jokes, though, because they always get misconstrued due to the fog of the internet.