Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Wintermelon43]

I think everyone took my comment the wrong way. The same thing has happened multiple times in the last 50, or so, pages. The internet makes it hard to convey certain points. You guys took what I said far too literally because of that. I actually didn't even realize what you guys thought I meant until a couple posts in. Everyone assumed that I was saying "legal" as in "Smash legal". Like, following by competitive Smash's rules.

I was really joking (as always) because I meant "government legal". Not "Smash legal". I really should just stop cracking jokes, though, because they always get misconstrued due to the fog of the internet.

Really not any better. In fact, if anything, that's worse.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Ahem... moving on...

Have we discussed where we think and will end up?

Based on the footage, I think it is pretty much the general consensus that Bayonetta will be top tier. Unless she changes from the footage we saw, she could definitely be a contender for top 5.

Corrin on the other hand is harder to judge. He looks like he will have good range and ability to combo, but he looks a bit sluggish. I doubt he will be lower than mid tier.

Other opinions?

 

[Deleted member]

Ahem... moving on...

Have we discussed where we think and will end up?

Based on the footage, I think it is pretty much the general consensus that Bayonetta will be top tier. Unless she changes from the footage we saw, she could definitely be a contender for top 5.

Corrin on the other hand is harder to judge. He looks like he will have good range and ability to combo, but he looks a bit sluggish. I doubt he will be lower than mid tier.

Other opinions?

Considering it was explicitly stated Bayonetta's attacks (or just her smashes iirc, correct me if I'm wrong) will have a lot of startup, it'll probably affect her. But to be honest, it's too early to cry tiers (ayyy geddit) over characters before they're even out. We thought Palutena would be high tier, we thought Roy and Lucas would be high tier , we thought Mewtwo was gonna be mid or high tier (even if he's mid tier anyway), look how those all ended up.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Considering it was explicitly stated Bayonetta's attacks (or just her smashes iirc, correct me if I'm wrong) will have a lot of startup, it'll probably affect her. But to be honest, it's too early to cry tiers (ayyy geddit) over characters before they're even out. We thought Palutena would be high tier, we thought Roy and Lucas would be high tier , we thought Mewtwo was gonna be mid or high tier (even if he's mid tier anyway), look how those all ended up.

Oh, was it stated in the trailer about start up? I must have missed that.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

This is my tier list based off of not knowing jack **** about half of the roster, and not having anyone in order(if I'm missing anyone, tell me)

S:
A+:
A:
Between A and A-:and(I didn't know where to put these two, do they're in their own little tier placement)
A-:
B+:
B:/
B-:/
C:
D:
F:
The IDK Tier List:/

I think you placed Roy too low and he is atlesat b+ tier with the characcters in and below that. I think bowser should go slightly lower because although he just got a buff, well he JUST got a buff and no results yet\. Same for Lucas but overalll pretty good tier list.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Considering it was explicitly stated Bayonetta's attacks (or just her smashes iirc, correct me if I'm wrong) will have a lot of startup, it'll probably affect her. But to be honest, it's too early to cry tiers (ayyy geddit) over characters before they're even out. We thought Palutena would be high tier, we thought Roy and Lucas would be high tier , we thought Mewtwo was gonna be mid or high tier (even if he's mid tier anyway), look how those all ended up.

Yeah we can't really judge Corrin and Bayonetta just yet. I did have an impression that Corrin would be a high-ranked competitive threat with his large disjointed attacks, but it will come down to how powerful those attacks are when they do land, along with how bad the endlag issues will be.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Yeah we can't really judge Corrin and Bayonetta just yet. I did have an impression that Corrin would be a high-ranked competitive threat with his large disjointed attacks, but it will come down to how powerful those attacks are when they do land, along with how bad the endlag issues will be.

That's pretty much what I say all the freaking time. It's almost like people just want to believe Corrin and Bayo are gonna be monsters no matter what.
I woulnd't hold my expectations high if I were any of you. If they end up being viable, that's good! If not, don't be surprised, especially when all of the other DLC characters but and are the way they are.

 

[Xandercosm]

I hate both Bayo and Corrin so I hope that they aren't good. However, I could see Bayo being a high tier. I don't think she'll be anywhere near top 5, though, since she seems to have a good balance of pros and cons.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Overall, that's a decent list! But...

Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but Lucina really isn't that far away from marth. B- tier at worst if Marth is in B (which I think is a spot on place for him). Samus really isn't that low down, and I think Mewtwo can go higher now thanks to his buffs (notable things thanks to the buffs include actual true combos with aerials, and Fair that is +2 safe on shield). Finally, just out of interest, I just want to ask you why you put Lucas so high up? I don't know huge amounts about him, but I am pretty sure he isn't that far up. What was your reasoning for that?

Everything else seems fair. A couple of spots could shift around in my views but overall the general idea is pretty good!

I'm still to lazy to actually put them in order, but...

•Lucina I'm still iffy on whether she should be a B- or a C, but I've only seen Nairo use her for a little bit and Marth in more tourneys.
•Lucas I believe, with Pink Fresh, has what it takes to be an A-, especially with his buffs
•...I don't pay attention to Mewtwo much, so I put him on C(alot of the characters in C besides Palutena and Duck Hunt idk much about since I find them either boring...or I miss out on their matches)

I think you placed Roy too low and he is atlesat b+ tier with the characcters in and below that. I think bowser should go slightly lower because although he just got a buff, well he JUST got a buff and no results yet\. Same for Lucas but overalll pretty good tier list.

I can respect your opinion on Lucas and Roy...but this post below me on the other hand...

I hate both Bayo and Corrin so I hope that they aren't good. However, I could see Bayo being a high tier. I don't think she'll be anywhere near top 5, though, since she seems to have a good balance of pros and cons.

No. Stop being a negative nancy half of the time.

 

[blackghost]

Gunner's 1111 moveset is charge blast as a neutral b, a weaker version of charge shot with much less endlag, flame pillar as a side b (a move that is like Arcfire only it has less endlag, but it only hits once and it does not set up for as many combos), Lunar Launch as an up b (similar to elwind, but it only uses one projectile), and echo reflector as down b (very similar to fox's reflector). While I also think that the Mii's should be allowed to use their best movesets, most tournaments will only allow 1111.

each those are not very good. Personally I love the grenade and the invisible zoning it brings. This community is really sad. Theyes a reason most other fighting game communities look down on smash players...

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

About Bayo and Corrin speculation, idk crap about Corrin, but I think Bayo will be like Meta Knight. "Is that a gap I see? Let me take you to the heavens, ty"

And personally (I prefer the air) I don't think Jiggly is the worst. For me, 1111 (standart height and weight) are the worst. Almost everyone can do 's job better.

 

[Xandercosm]

No. Stop being a negative nancy half of the time.

Nelly*

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Nelly*

No...noone cares about your Nelly*; a Negative Nancy fits you alot more in a situation like this.

 

[Xandercosm]

No...noone cares about your Nelly*; a Negative Nancy fits you alot more in a situation like this.

Don't be racist against Nellys, bro.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Don't be racist against Nellys, bro.

I'm not sure how to reply to this, so I won't(as of now that is)

About Bayo and Corrin speculation, idk crap about Corrin, but I think Bayo will be like Meta Knight. "Is that a gap I see? Let me take you to the heavens, ty"

And personally (I prefer the air) I don't think Jiggly is the worst. For me, 1111 (standart height and weight) are the worst. Almost everyone can do 's job better.

Is Standard Brawler really that bad?

 

[Djmarcus44]

each those are not very good. Personally I love the grenade and the invisible zoning it brings. This community is really sad. Theyes a reason most other fighting game communities look down on smash players...

Yeah. The only move that most Gunner players would keep from 1111 is lunar launch. While 1111 is not that bad, it is not the best set for gunner.

I'm not sure how to reply to this, so I won't(as of now that is)

Is Standard Brawler really that bad?

Yes. Dappufster (when he played smash 4 he was the best brawler main) himself said that 1111 brawler is one of the worst characters in the game. There are people on the Mii brawler boards that discourage other players from using 1111 brawler, because of the character's weaknesses.

Edit: Sorry for double posting. Please edit this.

 

[Routa]

Is Standard Brawler really that bad?

What do you get when you take Doc and remove his combo game, kill moves, safe on shield moves, spacing game etc.? You get Mii Brawler (and yes I... erm... what word do you use when you make something sound far worse than it its?).

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Yes. Dappufster (when he played smash 4 he was the best brawler main) himself said that 1111 brawler is one of the worst characters in the game. There are people on the Mii brawler boards that discourage other players from using 1111 brawler, because of the character's weaknesses.

Edit: Sorry for double posting. Please edit this.

Yikes, atleast there's customs for the Miis sometimes

What do you get when you take Doc and remove his combo game, kill moves, safe on shield moves, spacing game etc.? You get Mii Brawler (and yes I... erm... what word do you use when you make something sound far worse than it its?).

A pile of monkey ****?

 

[Xandercosm]

What do you get when you take Doc and remove his combo game, kill moves, safe on shield moves, spacing game etc.? You get Mii Brawler (and yes I... erm... what word do you use when you make something sound far worse than it its?).

Trashbag.

 

[Wintermelon43]

What do you get when you take Doc and remove his combo game, kill moves, safe on shield moves, spacing game etc.? You get Mii Brawler (and yes I... erm... what word do you use when you make something sound far worse than it its?).

A still-existing ZeRo win Streak

 

[Xandercosm]

A still-existing ZeRo win Streak

I think Zero should pick up Zelda as his new main and Greninja as his new secondary.

 

[itsmeMOB]

You have the order of the Miis backwards. Mii Brawler is definitely the worst of the Miis when they are forced to play 1111. This is because 1111 Brawler has very few results, and the character has considerable problems in every aspect of the game. 1111 Brawler's neutral is not that good because the character doesn't have much range (shotput is too slow to be used in the neutral very often, and Brawler's aerials don't have too much range). Mii Brawler's advantage state is not very good because Brawler lacks reliable options to kill an opponent, and Brawler doesn't have good combos past mid percents. Mii Brawler's disadvantage state is not that good, because he/she has one of the worst recoveries in the game. Mii Gunner and Mii Swordfighter have more tournament wins than Brawler when forced to use 1111. This statement is widely agreed upon by most Brawler mains.

Also Mii Gunner should be ahead of Mii Swordfighter now because Mii Gunner has more results than Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner has a better neutral and disadvantage than Mii Swordfighter. While Swordfighter has a better combo game than Gunner, it is not enough to make up for the fact that Gunner's neutral is much stronger than Swordfighter 's.

Currently it seems that EVO is the only major that will allow Miis to have their full movesets. Regardless of whether or not the Miis are allowed there full movesets, Gunner and Swordfighter should be higher on your list (especially Gunner since the character has been getting some results recently).

Brawler is tons better than Swordfighter and Gunner, IMO. Gunner is pretty bad in general and Swordfighter's very predictable. Brawler has the best moveset and has better data than the other Miis.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Brawler is tons better than Swordfighter and Gunner, IMO. Gunner is pretty bad in general and Swordfighter's very predictable. Brawler has the best moveset and has better data than the other Miis.

Why do you think that Mii Gunner is bad? Gunner has one of the best neutral games in all of Smash 4 and a decent disadvantage state. Mii Gunner has also been doing pretty well in top level play (ROM has also tied for Ninth with Gunner in a 129 man tournament that had some great players such as Komorikiri, Ranai, 9B, and Ally. He also got 97th in Genesis when he wasn't expected to make it out of the first pool).

Brawler's moveset and frame data are pretty good for low percent combos, but it is lacking in range and killing ability. Mii Brawler's best specials turn Mii Brawler's killing ability into a strength instead of a weakness, but 1111 is the only moveset allowed for Mii Brawler in most tournaments. As I said previously, the best Mii Brawler main that the character had claimed that 1111 brawler is one of the worst characters in the game. There are mii brawler mains that discourage other players from using 1111 brawler because of the character's weaknesses.

Also, predictably isn't a major issue for a character (It is a bigger issue for players than characters). In most cases, it is not an issue that will make a character bad (some examples of this are Mario and Ness). Can you elaborate on that statement?

This spoiler contains information that elaborates on my statements about Mii Gunner's tools.

Spoiler: Mii Gunner's viability analysis

Mii Gunner has one of the best neutral games in all of Smash 4 with 1111 and with 3312, Gunner's best moveset. This is due to the excellent projectiles Mii Gunner has (fair for 1111 and grenade, missile bomb and fair for 3312), and the movement options that Gunner gets when using them. Mii Gunner also has other moves that are good in the neutral (nair, bair, and pp ftilt to retreat). Mii Gunner also has decent mobility due to a good foxtrot, (it has a value of 1.6, the average run speed of a character), good airspeed (tied for 25th), good aerial acceleration, (tied for 15th) and a gundash that is as fast as a falcon kick without any landing lag. Mii Gunner also has a good juggling and edgeguarding game (his/her combo game is a work in progress, but there are some good true combos and follow ups in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). Killing with Gunner isn't very easy, but Gunner has a good variety of kill setups (including a kill confirm with 3312 gunner). In addition, mii gunner has good frame data on some killing options (frame 5 up tilt that kills around 135 depending on weight and a frame 9 down smash with good killing power for a smash attack). Mii Gunner also has a solid disadvantage state (although our only combo breaker is our frame 3 reflector, and it's weak hitbox gives it situational use for that purpose) especially with 3312. Bomb drop allows Gunner to land safely in most matchups, and gundashing, flame pillar, stalling with reflector (with 1111 gunner), and lunar launch are also good mix ups to land. Although Mii Gunner is somewhat easy to combo and edgeguard in comparison to the rest of the cast, Mii Gunner is good at surviving since Gunner has a good weight along with the option to gundash to the stage to mix up recovery. Mii Gunner's disadvantage state is also helped by being difficult to jab lock. Although Mii Gunner doesn't have many players to develop his/her metagame or to represent him/her in tournaments, Mii Gunner is definitely not a bad competitive pick relative to the rest of the cast.

 

[lbrasz44]

It midnight and I'm bored so I might as well throw my tier list out because I'm such an authoritative voice when it comes to analyzing stuff

S
A+
A
A-()
B+
B
B-
C+
C-

Purgatory

Some stuff:

-No experience with Miis in tourneys and obviously the guys waiting to come out, so they have no place atm
-S=best of the best of the best.
-A+ basically being the best but not overly dominant, A as firmly rooted as great characters, just lagging behind the guys above a little in ability and/or results. And the A- guys are those who broke out recently or are not firmly rooted to outright be the top characters, but have clearly shown to be significant in some regard and a cut above the rest.
-B's are obviously the midtiers, but with the guys in B+ being the ones I believe are next in line to break off from the rest and become less of a niche pick in tourneys. C's are actuallyalright, but have the tallest mountain to climb in comparison to others, possessing major flaws that contrast their strengths in a more obvious way.
-Cloud is in B+ because obviously he's pretty good, and I believe we can assume he can hang around with the top characters. With his weaknesses to consider as well and his overall freshness to the scene, it seems to be a fair spot for the moment because at his stage he could literally only become more compelling and continue his insanity, cementing him with the top tiers, or he could just maintain his current presence where he'd appear as often as other solid characters, appearing as a niche pick who can be a threat but nothing to go crazy about.
-I guess you can say I tried placing the characters in a general order, but take the tier line they're in more seriously

Feel free to utterly demolish this list and report me if you like haha

 

[Routa]

Brawler is tons better than Swordfighter and Gunner, IMO. Gunner is pretty bad in general and Swordfighter's very predictable. Brawler has the best moveset and has better data than the other Miis.

Let's see what Guest 1111 Swordfighter does better than Guest 1111 Brawler.
Even tho Swordfighter has hard time ending the stock, at least he has powerful kill moves that are rather safe (F-smash and Uair) along with top lvl edgeguarding game (Dair drag, Fair, Counter, Nair, D-smash, D-tilt -> Fair) even with Guest 1111 set (cannot go deep with that set, but with SSD/Hero Spin he can go deep easily).
He has better early % combo game (FF Fair -> Jab 1 -> Grab -> D-throw -> Uair is on of the combos). Also he is a lot better at landing (one does not simply challenge Dair). I'm on the phone and at work atm so I'm not able to write in detail.

 

[Xandercosm]

It midnight and I'm bored so I might as well throw my tier list out because I'm such an authoritative voice when it comes to analyzing stuff

S
A+
A
A-()
B+
B
B-
C+
C-

Purgatory

Some stuff:

-No experience with Miis in tourneys and obviously the guys waiting to come out, so they have no place atm
-S=best of the best of the best.
-A+ basically being the best but not overly dominant, A as firmly rooted as great characters, just lagging behind the guys above a little in ability and/or results. And the A- guys are those who broke out recently or are not firmly rooted to outright be the top characters, but have clearly shown to be significant in some regard and a cut above the rest.
-B's are obviously the midtiers, but with the guys in B+ being the ones I believe are next in line to break off from the rest and become less of a niche pick in tourneys. C's are actuallyalright, but have the tallest mountain to climb in comparison to others, possessing major flaws that contrast their strengths in a more obvious way.
-Cloud is in B+ because obviously he's pretty good, and I believe we can assume he can hang around with the top characters. With his weaknesses to consider as well and his overall freshness to the scene, it seems to be a fair spot for the moment because at his stage he could literally only become more compelling and continue his insanity, cementing him with the top tiers, or he could just maintain his current presence where he'd appear as often as other solid characters, appearing as a niche pick who can be a threat but nothing to go crazy about.
-I guess you can say I tried placing the characters in a general order, but take the tier line they're in more seriously

Feel free to utterly demolish this list and report me if you like haha

• Why are Bowser, Mewtwo, and Charizard so low?
• Why are Mario and Meta Knight in A instead of A+?
• Why is Jigglypuff not last when she is clearly worse than Zelda?
• Why is Wario so high?
• Why is Pac-Man so low?
• Why is Ike so not in B+?
• Why is Samus so freaking high?! Holy crap!
• Why are Dedede and Mac so incredibly low?
• Why is Lucas in the same tier as Lucina?
• Why is Diddy Kong in 5th?
• Why is Sonic in 4th?
• Why is Villager that high?

These are all the questions I could think of. It's quite easy to tell that your tier list was made at midnight, by the way. Reported.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

• Why are Bowser, Mewtwo, and Charizard so low?
• Why are Mario and Meta Knight in A instead of A+?
• Why is Jigglypuff not last when she is clearly worse than Zelda?
• Why is Wario so high?
• Why is Pac-Man so low?
• Why is Ike so not in B+?
• Why is Samus so freaking high?! Holy crap!
• Why are Dedede and Mac so incredibly low?
• Why is Lucas in the same tier as Lucina?
• Why is Diddy Kong in 5th?
• Why is Sonic in 4th?
• Why is Villager that high?

These are all the questions I could think of. It's quite easy to tell that your tier list was made at midnight, by the way. Reported.

Yeah reporting a guy over a tier list is so reasonable...

 

[Furret24]

Yeah reporting a guy over a tier list is so reasonable...

I believe he was joking. :|

 

[Xandercosm]

Yeah reporting a guy over a tier list is so reasonable...

lol man wtf. Are you actually serious?

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

What do you get when you take Doc and remove his combo game, kill moves, safe on shield moves, spacing game etc.? You get Mii Brawler (and yes I... erm... what word do you use when you make something sound far worse than it its?).

Exactly. And let's not talk about its kill options (no upb, no downb, good luck hitting those smashes)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You'll have to excuse me if you think that the following list doesn't look right...

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:
Mii:

Again I'm no competitive expert, so this list can be highly debatable. A few of the inputs are based on some things that I've analyzed in the past. As for the Mii tier, that's just a placeholder for the Mii fighters.

 

[lbrasz44]

Yeah reporting a guy over a tier list is so reasonable...

And I was joking about reporting me for my list.

• Why are Bowser, Mewtwo, and Charizard so low?
• Why are Mario and Meta Knight in A instead of A+?
• Why is Jigglypuff not last when she is clearly worse than Zelda?
• Why is Wario so high?
• Why is Pac-Man so low?
• Why is Ike so not in B+?
• Why is Samus so freaking high?! Holy crap!
• Why are Dedede and Mac so incredibly low?
• Why is Lucas in the same tier as Lucina?
• Why is Diddy Kong in 5th?
• Why is Sonic in 4th?
• Why is Villager that high?

These are all the questions I could think of. It's quite easy to tell that your tier list was made at midnight, by the way. Reported.

-Bowser having a great grab game is awesome to have, but aside from that there isn't really anything to write home about. Mewtwo's buffs were also awesome, how awesome they actually are is hard to say because he basically doesn't exist in tourneys. His lightweight and hurtbox are also things to consider and with everything put together, B- is really the safest place I can think of because we haven't seen anything yet. Charizard... you're actually right I did mean to place him in B- as well
-Mario is great all around but nothing that really suffocates the cast. I have a feeling he'll suffer like Melee where he will be figured out and dealt with. A personal hunch you could say. Metaknight I was debating this myself, and really could go either way, so whatever.
-For Jigglypuff, like I said the order isn't as important as the tier I placed them in, but for the sake of argument Jigglypuff is a muchmuch better edgeguarder than Zelda with what I'd personally say are decent aerials.
-Wario I was actually debating between A and A-. same with Ike for A- and B+. For Wario, his presence in the air is pretty damn good along with housing alongside Villager and ZSS the best overall set of specials. Bite is an amazing command grab, Bike is extremely versatile as its great for recovery, punishing, covering ledge options etc. His waft ensures that he is always in a match, and in a 2 stock game that is absolutely huge. Ike drowned at genesis but his recent success in literally the last few tournaments showed he is a threat in some way with a great throw game and overall advantage state.
-For Pacman, he is pretty great but there hasn't really been any performances that showed him to be a legitimate national threat. He has a whole bunch of traps but they could just as easily be reversed on him. His success is really due more player skill, such as 2015 Abadango, and Zage just being insane in general.
-Diddy's having the best neutral in the game and still remaining relevant after no hoo-hah , while Sonic has great tools in literally every aspect of his game. Both have also consistently shown to be tournament threats, especially since Zero still hasn't dropped the former.
-Samus has pretty damn good early percent combos like her suitless counterpart, having the dthrow uairuairauirauirauirauiruairuairuairuair stuff we see in a lot of characters and a tech chase CS is pretty damn good to have too. She isn't really someone I'd say who'd have to fish for kills and I'd say that puts her above from being in the bottom tiers.
-Mac has superarmour and a great ground game but it doesn't take away the fact that he's boned the moment someone can land a grap or a couple of moves that puts him remotely offstage. For DDD, a heavy fast faller with a telegraphed recovery and bad frames all around are not exactly qualities I'd love to have. There really are players that can show what he's capable of, but these issues really do come back to bite them eventually.
-Lucina is really just marth without the tip so she's really just a regular swordswoman. Nothing screams out for her or against her. Lucas is in the same tier because he also doesn't have anything screaming out for him. His nair and fair are pretty decent, zair is good, uair is odd though. He pretty much works with his defensive game and grab game, but like Samus he would need to find ways to actually set them up the grab which I feel he has some trouble with.
-Villager having a great keep away game, with great aerials are pretty good things to have and what I think people still have trouble getting by as there really aren't many great villagers in NA. Ranai has shown him to be a monster, but thats Ranai in general. Nevertheless Villager can be suffocating to play against and is a large threat that demands the opponent to approach and get past his lloids, yet only to be pelted constantly by slingshots and never get a hold on the character

 

[Xandercosm]

And I was joking about reporting me for my list.



-Bowser having a great grab game is awesome to have, but aside from that there isn't really anything to write home about. Mewtwo's buffs were also awesome, how awesome they actually are is hard to say because he basically doesn't exist in tourneys. His lightweight and hurtbox are also things to consider and with everything put together, B- is really the safest place I can think of because we haven't seen anything yet. Charizard... you're actually right I did mean to place him in B- as well
-Mario is great all around but nothing that really suffocates the cast. I have a feeling he'll suffer like Melee where he will be figured out and dealt with. A personal hunch you could say. Metaknight I was debating this myself, and really could go either way, so whatever.
-For Jigglypuff, like I said the order isn't as important as the tier I placed them in, but for the sake of argument Jigglypuff is a muchmuch better edgeguarder than Zelda with what I'd personally say are decent aerials.
-Wario I was actually debating between A and A-. same with Ike for A- and B+. For Wario, his presence in the air is pretty damn good along with housing alongside Villager and ZSS the best overall set of specials. Bite is an amazing command grab, Bike is extremely versatile as its great for recovery, punishing, covering ledge options etc. His waft ensures that he is always in a match, and in a 2 stock game that is absolutely huge. Ike drowned at genesis but his recent success in literally the last few tournaments showed he is a threat in some way with a great throw game and overall advantage state.
-For Pacman, he is pretty great but there hasn't really been any performances that showed him to be a legitimate national threat. He has a whole bunch of traps but they could just as easily be reversed on him. His success is really due more player skill, such as 2015 Abadango, and Zage just being insane in general.
-Diddy's having the best neutral in the game and still remaining relevant after no hoo-hah , while Sonic has great tools in literally every aspect of his game. Both have also consistently shown to be tournament threats, especially since Zero still hasn't dropped the former.
-Samus has pretty damn good early percent combos like her suitless counterpart, having the dthrow uairuairauirauirauirauiruairuairuairuair stuff we see in a lot of characters and a tech chase CS is pretty damn good to have too. She isn't really someone I'd say who'd have to fish for kills and I'd say that puts her above from being in the bottom tiers.
-Mac has superarmour and a great ground game but it doesn't take away the fact that he's boned the moment someone can land a grap or a couple of moves that puts him remotely offstage. For DDD, a heavy fast faller with a telegraphed recovery and bad frames all around are not exactly qualities I'd love to have. There really are players that can show what he's capable of, but these issues really do come back to bite them eventually.
-Lucina is really just marth without the tip so she's really just a regular swordswoman. Nothing screams out for her or against her. Lucas is in the same tier because he also doesn't have anything screaming out for him. His nair and fair are pretty decent, zair is good, uair is odd though. He pretty much works with his defensive game and grab game, but like Samus he would need to find ways to actually set them up the grab which I feel he has some trouble with.
-Villager having a great keep away game, with great aerials are pretty good things to have and what I think people still have trouble getting by as there really aren't many great villagers in NA. Ranai has shown him to be a monster, but thats Ranai in general. Nevertheless Villager can be suffocating to play against and is a large threat that demands the opponent to approach and get past his lloids, yet only to be pelted constantly by slingshots and never get a hold on the character

Thanks for the wall of text. I really can't understand this new "Mario's going to be figured out" thing that people have been talking about of late. It makes literally no sense, especially since he would have already been "figured out" by now if that were the case. I think it's everyone's way of showing their surprise that Mario is high/top tier for once.

 

[lbrasz44]

Thanks for the wall of text. I really can't understand this new "Mario's going to be figured out" thing that people have been talking about of late. It makes literally no sense, especially since he would have already been "figured out" by now if that were the case. I think it's everyone's way of showing their surprise that Mario is high/top tier for once.

No problem buddy. Ehh the thing about Mario is that he really is a great character, don't get me wrong, but recent trends have pointed towards him just cooling of a little bit instead of dominating the top 4 at nationals. Still reliable, and definitely still gonna serve you well, but I'll argue that much like Wario, Ness, and Captain Falcon, the need for a secondary just to cover your bases a bit more and provide the extra insurance a player wants may be needed during nationals if you want to main those guys. Ally is basically the best Mario out there, and his tweets a day or so ago basically inferred this. Still gonna be a presence to take note of course, but a Mario won't instill mindgames in the opponent that, say, a Rosaluma or ZSS brings.

Unless you do cape and fludd shenanigans like a mofo of course

 

[Xandercosm]

]Unless you do cape and fludd shenanigans like mofo of course

Which is what Ally was so good at doing. Mario has ample opportunities to mixup his strategy. I think that people have a misguided stereotype of Mario being too average to be good. You have to realize that simple is good. I mean ZSS is exactly the same. Her gameplay just focuses on starting combos all over the board and then going for: grab > D-throw > U-air > U-air > U-special. I think being simple is often really quite a good thing.

 

[David Viran]

Which is what Ally was so good at doing. Mario has ample opportunities to mixup his strategy. I think that people have a misguided stereotype of Mario being too average to be good. You have to realize that simple is good. I mean ZSS is exactly the same. Her gameplay just focuses on starting combos all over the board and then going for: grab > D-throw > U-air > U-air > U-special. I think being simple is often really quite a good thing.

Sorry to nit pick but zss and Mario do not have the same game plan. Zss is a mid range beast who uses her good range and God tier mobility to to pressure from further away and goes for grabs to discourage shielding or just flat out beat other attacks. Mario is a fighter that wants to be up close in the opponents face due to his short range and good frame data while using grabs as a good means to rack up damage.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Thanks for the wall of text. I really can't understand this new "Mario's going to be figured out" thing that people have been talking about of late. It makes literally no sense, especially since he would have already been "figured out" by now if that were the case. I think it's everyone's way of showing their surprise that Mario is high/top tier for once.

If I remember correctly, mario was top tier for the start of melee in early tier lists, I could be wrong however

 

[Xandercosm]

Sorry to nit pick but zss and Mario do not have the same game plan. Zss is a mid range beast who uses her good range and God tier mobility to to pressure from further away and goes for grabs to discourage shielding or just flat out beat other attacks. Mario is a fighter that wants to be up close in the opponents face due to his short range and good frame data while using grabs as a good means to rack up damage.

I didn't mean that their gameplay's are the same. I meant that they are both similarly simple.

 

[David Viran]

I didn't mean that their gameplay's are the same. I meant that they are both similarly simple.

They are not really similar tho and ZSS isn't really simple. There's a reason why zss doesn't have too much representation in tournaments.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

lol man wtf. Are you actually serious?

It depends...did you take my post seriously? Coming from you, I'd be shocked if ya did.