Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Djmarcus44]

I wouldn't say that Palutena has bad frame data (if you only looks the moves that she uses mostly in her gameplan.., her tilts are slow as **** tbh). Unlike rest of the bottom tier she at least has a good gameplan and above average moves (dash attack and bair). Well why is she bad? Lack of mobility. It is the same reason why guest sized Miis are at/near bottom tier. Mobility is very important in a game like Sm4sh.

Also my opinion about Mii Gunner has changed. Think about fighting a Sonic. Annoying as **** right? Well fighting Gunner is like that but 10x more annoying. He/she/it can pretty much create a wall just with Fairs. Gunner has top lvl neutral game (maybe the best with correct size and set). But... Just like Swordfighter he has hard time killing compared to rest of the cast. Also his recovery is very very VERY bad. But that sweet neutral...

I'm atm at work so I will reply to other posts later...

Also I think DDD might be in bottom 5.

While mobility is important, the lack of results for guest size miis are a larger factor in their placement than mobility. In fact, mobility isn't much of an issue for the miis. Mii Brawler has top 20 ground speed and top 10 aerial speed. Mii Gunner has a foxtrot with a speed of 1.6, which is average speed for a character. When combined with top 25 airspeed, top 16 aerial acceleration, a gundash that has the speed of a falcon kick without any landing lag, and the ability to use the reflector to change directions in the air to gundash more often, Mii Gunner's mobility is actually decent when played optimally. While Mii Swordfighter does have substandard groundspeed and airspeed which hurt the character's neutral, it isn't the number one reason why Swordfighter isn't higher on tier lists.

While Mii Gunner's recovery is substandard relative to the rest of the cast due to the lack of a hitbox above gunner, it is not bad (there are at least 10 characters with a recovery worse than Gunner). Lunar Launch allows Gunner to make it from just about anywhere off the stage. Gunner can also use the reflector to change directions in the air and gundash back to the stage. Although Gunner has to wait a little in order to make the recovery sweetspot the ledge, Gunner can cover his/her recovery with flame pillar or charge blast. Also Mii Gunner's disadvantage state as a whole is decent due to his/her good survivability, variety of landing mixups (gundashing, reflector, flame pillar, and lunar launch), situational combo breaker in reflector (it comes out on frame 3), and the difficulty in jab locking Gunner.

i dont get what youre trying to say with this... at all?
his points i can all agree on, except for the mobility aspect.
she has a great set of aerial, with good frame data, and its no surprise that thats basically her gameplan; fair comes out frame 9 and i believe its safe on shield, bair comes out frame 8 and is invincible from frames 3-10, uair comes out frame 8 and is disjointed, and is good at killing. nair comes out frame 5, and her dair comes out frame 10, being the worst of her aerials. in fact, i would even go as far as saying palutena has better aerials than jiggs does, and jiggs' air game is supposed to be her "gimmick".
the thing i think holds palutena back is imo her throw game, sure, if the opponent doesnt know what theyre doing its deadly, but anyone who knows what they are doing will just di away, yet to me it seems like grabs are supposed to be one of her best traits :/

if u disagree with gunner, well i cant help you with that, ive said a few times in this thread i think gunners underestimated way too much, its great to see someone agreeing with me fair is an amazing move, its arguable the best fair in the game, only other contenders imo being ryu and sheik. it comboes, its a spacing tool and a movement/recovery option.gunners recovery really isnt that bad, i mean its not great but i wouldnt label it as one of his weak points, if at all its killing, as he has no kill confirms with the 1111 set, although uair outlasting airdodges(and therefore being avery potent tool after dthrow and uthrow) means you only have to stay below them for the whole duration and it will hit, utilt comes out frame 6 and kills if sweetspotted, dsmash is dsmash comes out frame 9 and kills, its only problem being that the two hits dont always connect and that its techable(seriously who the f* thought that was a good idea?!?),bair is also a killing option and fair offstage is decent :/

also, someone mentioned palu not having a kill confirm, actually she does, jab to utilt combos and kills at around 150% i believe, not that it makes a world of difference, just thought id point it out ;p

1111 Gunner also has a good variety of killing mixups that are not very easy to avoid. For example, jab can be followed up with any smash, tilt or charge blast to get the kill. While flame pillar to charge blast is only a kill confirm when an opponent walks, runs, or rolls into flame pillar, it is still not easy to avoid even when these conditions are not met. Up tilt is frame 5, and it can be used to set up for an up air. There are more kill setups in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread.

I also don't know why they would make Gunner's down smash techable, but they also thought it was a good idea to make Cloud's down smash techable.

 

[Routa]

While mobility is important, the lack of results for guest size miis are a larger factor in their placement than mobility. In fact, mobility isn't much of an issue for the miis. Mii Brawler has top 20 ground speed and top 10 aerial speed. Mii Gunner has a foxtrot with a speed of 1.6, which is average speed for a character. When combined with top 25 airspeed, top 16 aerial acceleration, a gundash that has the speed of a falcon kick without any landing lag, and the ability to use the reflector to change directions in the air to gundash more often, Mii Gunner's mobility is actually decent when played optimally. While Mii Swordfighter does have substandard groundspeed and airspeed which hurt the character's neutral, it isn't the number one reason why Swordfighter isn't higher on tier lists.

The thing is that even tho they have "good" mobility... their moves don't flow well with the mobility. For example FF Fair into D-tilt/Grab/Jab doesn't link as well on Guest size Swordfighter as on 50:0 or 0:0 size. For a Swordfighter the poor mobility, which Guest size gives to him, hurts him a lot. This also implies on Brawler (but not as much as on Swordfighter). Size isn't as important for Gunner as it is for Swordfighter due to how strong his neutral is. I would compare the importance of size for Swordfighter to Mario and Doc. Swordfighter is like Doc in Guest size, but without the heavy damage to balance the lack of mobility. When given 0:0 size he transforms into Mario.

Also his recovery isn't bad IF he is launched high. He has really hard time recovering if he is hit near the middle of the side blast zone. His recovery is pretty much as good as Ike (can recover from high rather safely, but everything els is rather risky). He does have worst recovery out of the Miis (well Brawler has worse if limited to Guest 1111).

And yeah lack of results puts him low, but the reason for that is very few Mii mains use Guest 1111 due to many prefer using their "own" sets (for example I won't go to a tournament if the rules force me to use Guest 1111 instead of the set which I use (50:0 1233/1223)).

 

[Djmarcus44]

The thing is that even tho they have "good" mobility... their moves don't flow well with the mobility. For example FF Fair into D-tilt/Grab/Jab doesn't link as well on Guest size Swordfighter as on 50:0 or 0:0 size. For a Swordfighter the poor mobility, which Guest size gives to him, hurts him a lot. This also implies on Brawler (but not as much as on Swordfighter). Size isn't as important for Gunner as it is for Swordfighter due to how strong his neutral is. I would compare the importance of size for Swordfighter to Mario and Doc. Swordfighter is like Doc in Guest size, but without the heavy damage to balance the lack of mobility. When given 0:0 size he transforms into Mario.

Also his recovery isn't bad IF he is launched high. He has really hard time recovering if he is hit near the middle of the side blast zone. His recovery is pretty much as good as Ike (can recover from high rather safely, but everything els is rather risky). He does have worst recovery out of the Miis (well Brawler has worse if limited to Guest 1111).

And yeah lack of results puts him low, but the reason for that is very few Mii mains use Guest 1111 due to many prefer using their "own" sets (for example I won't go to a tournament if the rules force me to use Guest 1111 instead of the set which I use (50:0 1233/1223)).

I agree that Miis would be much better at a smaller size, but guest size mobility isn't bad enough to be considered a weakness for brawler and gunner. While they do lose combos when forced into guest size, the gameplan of mii brawler and gunner are not significantly affected (mii brawler can still down throw to fair to hk, and gunner isn't too reliant on combos). The flow of the movesets of brawler and gunner is not severely impacted by being forced into guest size. As I said, previously I agree that guest size isn't the best for miis, but it isn't the biggest weakness for the miis (I agree that it is a pretty big issue for Swordfighter though).

Mii Gunner is good at recovering low safely. While Gunner sometimes has to wait a little before recovering in order to grab the ledge immediately when using Lunar Launch, Gunner can still mix it up with reflector stalling and the use of aerials, specials and a wall jump depending on the stage. Mii Gunner's recovery in 1111 is better than 1111 Swordfighter as well as brawler because Swordfighter can't recover well diagonally, and his side b doesn't grab the ledge very quickly (it is also very punishable when it is used for a high recovery due to its high endlag). This is also agreed upon by the Recovery rankings thread. While Mii Gunner's recovery is worse than Brawler and Swordfighter when all of them are allowed to use their best movesets, Mii Gunner's recovery is better than Brawler's and Swordfighter 's when all of them are forced to use 1111.

The miis have a lack of tournament representation due to the reasons you stated and the fact that they are not allowed to be used everywhere.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I am really liking buffed Mewtwo. His major flaws still stand, such as his huge size and light weight, but he actually does feel more like a glass cannon now, rather than just glass.

I either read or heard this somewhere regarding 1.1.3 Mewtwo... "Mewtwo's weight is only a problem in the hands of a bad player". It took me some time to understand this, but it's absolutely true. He has a lot of mobility to weave in and out of the battle, and thanks to this, his huge size isn't nearly as much of a problem as it used to be. He has a lot of great defensive options, and the fact that Shadow Ball's size was increased helps this more. Mewtwo can control the battle pretty easily thanks to his speed and defensive options. He has relatively quick ground options that he can always get a follow up off (Jab 1, Dtilt). He even now has both a vertical kill move (Uair) along with the horizontal Fair. He has decent combos and great frame traps, thanks to the landing lag buffs, and even has a move that is safe on shield when used correctly now (Fair), so aside from having a great defensive options and abilities, they can form pressuring situations upon hit, something that never really happened before.

By no means top tier at all, but I think the buffs he received are VERY relevant to his playstyle, and I can't wait for players to show exactly what he is capable of. Isn't Abadango supposed to be using him soon?

 

[Deleted member]

I am really liking buffed Mewtwo. His major flaws still stand, such as his huge size and light weight, but he actually does feel more like a glass cannon now, rather than just glass.

I either read or heard this somewhere regarding 1.1.3 Mewtwo... "Mewtwo's weight is only a problem in the hands of a bad player". It took me some time to understand this, but it's absolutely true. He has a lot of mobility to weave in and out of the battle, and thanks to this, his huge size isn't nearly as much of a problem as it used to be. He has a lot of great defensive options, and the fact that Shadow Ball's size was increased helps this more. Mewtwo can control the battle pretty easily thanks to his speed and defensive options. He has relatively quick ground options that he can always get a follow up off (Jab 1, Dtilt). He even now has both a vertical kill move (Uair) along with the horizontal Fair. He has decent combos and great frame traps, thanks to the landing lag buffs, and even has a move that is safe on shield when used correctly now (Fair), so aside from having a great defensive options and abilities, they can form pressuring situations upon hit, something that never really happened before.

By no means top tier at all, but I think the buffs he received are VERY relevant to his playstyle, and I can't wait for players to show exactly what he is capable of. Isn't Abadango supposed to be using him soon?

Yeah, Abadango is using him.at Genesis. Correct me if I'm wrong but Blue and Mewsquared will be using him as well.

I agree with everything you said. Even though I've **** on Mewtwo for several months and even considered him one of the worst characters in the game like most people, I've come to realize how fun, unusual, and actually very well designed character he is. of a character he is.

People have a kneejerk negative reaction to what they don't understand, and that used to be me with Mewtwo. Now I'm really glad I have him as a secondary, he's crazy fun. I want to make people fear this character and realize how much of a threat he is, no matter how long that takes.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Yeah, Abadango is using him.at Genesis. Correct me if I'm wrong but Blue and Mewsquared will be using him as well.

I agree with everything you said. Even though I've **** on Mewtwo for several months and even considered him one of the worst characters in the game like mostly people, I've come to realize how fun and unusual of a character he is.

People have a kneejerk negative reaction to what they don't understand, and that used to be me with Mewtwo. Now I'm really glad I have him as a secondary, he's crazy fun. I want to make people fear this character and realize how much of a threat he is, no matter how long that takes.

I initially thought Mewtwo was pretty trash. Then I learned some more things such as his follow ups and abilities, and even some advanced techniques such as that instant Shadow Ball/Disable ledge getup. That made me think better of him, but not by much. Now though, he does feel a lot more solid, and actually has a lot more options and tools at his disposal. It could be a bit early to say, but I could see him near the top of the lower tiers now, somewhere near Robin or Kirby (using our community list as an example).

I know that feeling bruh, representing a lesser used character...

 

[LRodC]

I don't want to be one of those guys that thought he wasn't that bad, but I never thought he was that bad. I thought he always had an excellent recovery, excellent punishing, good combos, good aerials, and a good grab game, even before he got buffed. I was one of the very few that actually dedicated the time to the character and tried to push him to his highest potential. However, he was very wonky in some areas like hitboxes and it felt like he was still pretty under tuned compared to his attributes. I thought he was low tier, but not bottom tier trash. I wouldn't have felt that confident using him at a tournament at that time.

The patch, however, fixed most of that. They buffed him in a ton of very relevant ways, and now I would seriously consider using him for the majority of a tournament if I went to one. I feel that he's a solid mid tier character now that has good tools for most of the cast (I think the only top tier that wrecks him is ZSS. Sheik's poor but manageable IMO). Where he goes from here will be up to the players that represent him in tournaments doing well. Glad Mewtwo is finally establishing a player base now.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I don't want to be one of those guys that thought he wasn't that bad, but I never thought he was that bad. I thought he always had an excellent recovery, excellent punishing, good combos, good aerials, and a good grab game, even before he got buffed. I was one of the very few that actually dedicated the time to the character and tried to push him to his highest potential. However, he was very wonky in some areas like hitboxes and it felt like he was still pretty under tuned compared to his attributes. I thought he was low tier, but not bottom tier trash. I wouldn't have felt that confident using him at a tournament at that time.

The patch, however, fixed most of that. They buffed him in a ton of very relevant ways, and now I would seriously consider using him for the majority of a tournament if I went to one. I feel that he's a solid mid tier character now that has good tools for most of the cast (I think the only top tier that wrecks him is ZSS. Sheik's poor but manageable IMO). Where he goes from here will be up to the players that represent him in tournaments doing well. Glad Mewtwo is finally establishing a player base now.

I mean, I never thought he was bad, a-la Melee Kirby bad, but I thought he was bad, sort of Brawl Falcon bad, having things that should work but never did correctly. Very underwhelming in a term. I would argue that his punish game wasn't fantastic before the patch, but that was before the patch. Right now, it's clear that it has improved to a respectable level regardless of how it was before. His grab game is above average at best, as at least he does have powerful damage dealing throws. He can't get many true follow ups out of them, but they are powerful.

Also, care to explain your insight into why you think ZSS is worse than Sheik for him? Personally, i'd say that they are pretty much both as bad. ZSS could always kill him really early, but then again Sheik can combo and rack up damage on him easier than ZSS can. And Needles. But yeah, I'm not saying you are wrong, I just want to find out!

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Mewtwos buffs might make him a mid tier character, but I just want it to be Genesis time now to see the buffs in action in tournament play.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'd also like to point out how strong of a fighter Mewtwo could actually be with more weight (by more weight, I mean his Melee weight of 85). At this moment in time, he's got good mobility, good defensive options, good combos, a few kill confirms, good get off me options and good pressuring and frame trapping skills. It's already quite risky to approach Mewtwo as it is. I find his light weight more a reward for the opponent, as getting in on him can result in good things. If he had more weight (disregarding the fact he could be combo'd at a bit higher percents than now), he's be much harder to KO, and the way I see it, it could create an imbalance in his playstyle. The opponent would still have to be careful approaching him, but would get less reward from actually doing so, even though Mewtwo has powerful defensive and punishing options. If they were to increase his weight, I'd say they'd do it by a marginal amount, from 72 to maybe 75 or 77. This is also part of the reason I feel that Shadow Ball has no charging hitboxes, as it leaves him vulnerable from above and behind also while charging it. It gives the opponent more options to try and get in to break the glass cannon. And like mentioned before, the light weight shouldn't be too much of a huge problem if you play him correctly (not super aggro for example). Realistically, I still feel 72 is excessively light, and even though 75 wouldn't feel right canonically, it would still be a fair enough weight for him to feel a bit more balanced IMO.

 

[Dinoman96]

Unfortunately the chances of them increasing Mewtwo's weight is about as likely as them giving Little Mac decent aerials and recovery.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Unfortunately the chances of them increasing Mewtwo's weight is about as likely as them giving Little Mac decent aerials and recovery.

Sadly, that alone pretty much seals Mewtwo's fate.

On another subject, does anyone have the impression that Corrin could become a dominating force? He does have those large disjointed attacks, which could result in him having large advantages against most of the low-ranked cast.

 

[aεrgiα]

Sadly, that alone pretty much seals Mewtwo's fate.

On another subject, does anyone have the impression that Corrin could become a dominating force? He does have those large disjointed attacks, which could result in him having large advantages against most of the low-ranked cast.

it depends on what they do with his frame data and the moves we havnt seen, good reach alone doesnt make a good character, just ask shulk or dedede but from what weve seen so far, corrins moveset looks pretty good and really fun, the questions which imo could make or break the character are: will he have a good "get off me" move(assuming hes meant to play more of a zoning playstyle, which i assume looking at what weve seen), will he have a fast/invincible/superarmour aerial option to get out of combos, will he have ways to reliably get the kill and lastly, and most importantly, will he have a way to deal with shields, as in a good combo throw(potentially even with a hoo hah), a good kill throw or a move that can deal with shields, whether that be a shield breaker-esque move or a command grab like move

 

[Bowserboy3]

Unfortunately the chances of them increasing Mewtwo's weight is about as likely as them giving Little Mac decent aerials and recovery.

Yeah I agree with you, but like I mentioned in the post above, a weight increase of 3 points or so would still make him tied 2nd lightest character. He would still be light.

On another subject, does anyone have the impression that Corrin could become a dominating force? He does have those large disjointed attacks, which could result in him having large advantages against most of the low-ranked cast.

My impressions of Corrin are that he will be a solid character, similar to my first impressions on Cloud. He looks like a solid, well rounded fighter. Just looking at Corrin, it doesn't look like he will have fantastic ground movement. To me, it looks somewhere similar to Rosalina's running speed.

EDIT: In fact, if we take the end of the trailer where he is running away from Super Pac Man, we can assume that his running speed will be the same as the Super Pac Man, which is just slower than Mr Game and Watch. This would put him as faster than Shulk, but slower than G&W, which would make him 32nd fastest runner (for a comparison sake, Ike is currently 35 and Marth is 18th for example, meaning in terms of FE characters, he'd have an average run speed).

It also looks like he has been taking lessons from Marth, as his Fair and even more so his Uair, look very similar. He does look like he has a few combos, which is a good sign. Something I hope though is that his high commitment high range moves do have lots of cooldown to compensate for such high range. If not, he could make virtually all the other FE characters (maybe barring Robin) irrelevant.

Speaking of which, I will say this though. If Corrin stays as he looks in the trailer, I feel all Marth, Lucina and Roy will all need a few buffs or changes to either differentiate from him, or mainly to allow them to compete with him. He looks to have more range, combos, and attacking speed than them. Whether or not he achieves Ike success is unclear.

One thing is for certain though, the male Corrin is going to get overshadowed by the female variety as per normal, as all the pre-pubescent teenage boys don't realise that you can't actually marry them like in game... Is it just me who prefers male Robin and Corrin?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've only really used male Robin myself.

 

[TDK]

I used Female Robin and Wii Fit when I used them.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I've only really used male Robin myself.

I can only use Red and Pink/Pink and Red(for the nitpicky)Robin...all because of Etika and Nairo

 

[Wintermelon43]

Don't show TMNTSSB4 any glitch videos.

Or he'll show it to Etika

And Etika will go nuts over it and make a video about it.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Don't show TMNTSSB4 any glitch videos.

Or he'll show it to Etika

And Etika will go nuts over it and make a video about it.

I'm not that kind of fan(I'll watch them...but not link them)...though watching Etika go nuts is funny to see(kinda similar to Dashie in that department).

Also, why not just tag me?!?!?!?

 

[aεrgiα]

i always play the female version if there is one, with the exception of wendy, bc im childish and think "s our boy" is funny, before was announced i always went wendy. no good reason to it really, just that theres already "enough" male characters in comparison to the females imo i guess :/ (and i have the habit of playing female characters for no good reason, for eg. in games with multiple options i always try out the females first, then the males, guess im just a pervert ey)

also funny how we're talking about how mewtwo would need something like a weight increase, and then u look at abadangos and shus tier lists... mind blown dont get me wrong, i never thought mewtwo was as bad as people made him out to be, but that good? also lucina in last place(or tied bottom 2 on abadangos) in both lmao, but then again there were a lot of questionable placements on those 2 lists imo

 

[Bowserboy3]

i always play the female version if there is one, with the exception of wendy, bc im childish and think "s our boy" is funny, before was announced i always went wendy. no good reason to it really, just that theres already "enough" male characters in comparison to the females imo i guess :/ (and i have the habit of playing female characters for no good reason, for eg. in games with multiple options i always try out the females first, then the males, guess im just a pervert ey)

also funny how we're talking about how mewtwo would need something like a weight increase, and then u look at abadangos and shus tier lists... mind blown dont get me wrong, i never thought mewtwo was as bad as people made him out to be, but that good? also lucina in last place(or tied bottom 2 on abadangos) in both lmao, but then again there were a lot of questionable placements on those 2 lists imo

I actually just saw the most recent Japanese tier list. I also found it funny how Samus and Lucina were the bottom two. In Japan, I don't think they have a notable Samus player at all, nor a notable Lucina/Marth player, but hopefully Sakurai will see the list buff them, and people will take them more seriously (in a similar vein to what happened with 1.1.3 Mewtwo).

In fact, I think nearly every character in the C range in the most recent Japanese tier list could do with a few buffs/changes/fixes in a few areas. Not to say they are all bad (for example, I still think Marth is on the cusp of being mid tier, but he still needs a few fixes in a few areas), because they aren't (aside from maybe Puff).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

After seeing the updated list at the Mewtwo social thread, I heavily questioned the placements of some of the characters...

Abadango just posted a new tier list. Thoughts on Mewtwo's position or any others? Rows are not ordered.

Personally, I think that's about right for Mewtwo at the moment with a possible rise in the future. Still pretty early to tell. Way better than how people used to think of him.

I question his other positions though. I think Ike, DK, Link, Falco, Kirby, and WFT are too low. Jiggs is too high and should also be in E tier I think. DH is pretty high. I'm very surprised that Cloud is as high as he is right now, but he could potentially justify that with more time. I think he's very powerful.

The list is giving Meta Knight, Cloud, Sonic, and Rosalina too much credit, while Lucina is heavily underestimated.

Cloud is clearly being overestimated, since his recovery is a very situational one; without Limit Break, his recovery hardly offers any horizontal movement, and there's no way that anyone can ever be A+ material if they have a poor recovery.

Similarly, Sonic doesn't have any projectile attacks by his side, which does give him problems against the long-ranged attackers.

 

[Deleted member]

After seeing the updated list at the Mewtwo social thread, I heavily questioned the placements of some of the characters...



The list is giving Meta Knight, Cloud, Sonic, and Rosalina too much credit, while Lucina is heavily underestimated.

Cloud is clearly being overestimated, since his recovery is a very situational one; without Limit Break, his recovery hardly offers any horizontal movement, and there's no way that anyone can ever be A+ material if they have a poor recovery.

Similarly, Sonic doesn't have any projectile attacks by his side, which does give him problems against the long-ranged attackers.

and had laughable recoveries yet he was still one of the best characters in both Melee and Brawl. Recovery isn't absolutely everything, especially since Cloud has such a dominating force onstage both on the ground and in the air.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

and had laughable recoveries yet he was still one of the best characters in both Melee and Brawl. Recovery isn't absolutely everything, especially since Cloud has such a dominating force onstage both on the ground and in the air.

Still, A+ seems way too high. I can understand putting Cloud in the A-tier though, since that would basically mean that while Cloud is viable, he does have a flaw that keeps him from being A+ material; in this case, the major problems with his recovery.

 

[aεrgiα]

I actually just saw the most recent Japanese tier list. I also found it funny how Samus and Lucina were the bottom two. In Japan, I don't think they have a notable Samus player at all, nor a notable Lucina/Marth player, but hopefully Sakurai will see the list buff them, and people will take them more seriously (in a similar vein to what happened with 1.1.3 Mewtwo).

In fact, I think nearly every character in the C range in the most recent Japanese tier list could do with a few buffs/changes/fixes in a few areas. Not to say they are all bad (for example, I still think Marth is on the cusp of being mid tier, but he still needs a few fixes in a few areas), because they aren't (aside from maybe Puff).

i dont know which tier list you are looking at(i dont mean this in a negative way, is it abadangos or shus or was there a list i havnt seen yet like shi-g?) but abadango actually puts ike and dk in his c tier and i dont think they need buffs tbh :/ also roy in the bottom 2 tiers is amusing to me regardless though, i dont think a lack of representation is a reason to put characters that low, especially when they put bowser and robin above them but yeah, i do think most of the chars around that area of the tier list could do with some buffs, but looking at the patches up until now the patches seem to favour certain character despite others being in a much worse situation

also about cloud, while his recovery doesnt make him bad, it definitely holds him back, and while falco in brawl and melee didnt have a good recovery either, relative to the cast, it really wasnt as bad as clouds is in relation to smash 4s cast, also, brawl and melee falco had extremely "oppressive" traits to make up for it, cloud doesnt. dont get me wrong, i think hes better than what i initially put him at, and hes looking to be a staying force in the meta, i wouldnt put him at the same level as sheik and zss though, its not solely because of his recovery, but the fact that hes so gimpable instantly puts him at least a tier below those two imo,and its because those two have a better combo game, better safety on shield, they can threaten shields(have a throw game) while still being amazing at recovering. his bad recovery gives cloud an easily exploitable weakness which, imo, in this game isnt good enough for a top tier, i would probably place him top 15 in this game and i could potentially see top 10, but i think his weakness is just too much of an issue for top 5 :/

also, as a reference here are shu and abadangos tier lists

Spoiler

abadango:

Shu:

 

[Bowserboy3]

After seeing the updated list at the Mewtwo social thread, I heavily questioned the placements of some of the characters...



The list is giving Meta Knight, Cloud, Sonic, and Rosalina too much credit, while Lucina is heavily underestimated.

Cloud is clearly being overestimated, since his recovery is a very situational one; without Limit Break, his recovery hardly offers any horizontal movement, and there's no way that anyone can ever be A+ material if they have a poor recovery.

Similarly, Sonic doesn't have any projectile attacks by his side, which does give him problems against the long-ranged attackers.

That list... it feels like a mixture of "I can't use this character so it's bad" and "I suck against this character so it's good" to me.

There are a few placements that I feel are spot on. Bowser, Doc, Link, Diddy are a few. My main gripe with this list are the bottom tiers and more notoriously, the higher tiers.

Lucina is certainly not the worst character in the game, at all. Not even in the bottom tier by my views. I feel both her and Marth should be at least at the top of C. Ike should be higher up. I can't complain about Samus, her placement is fair. G&W seems a little over estimated, as does Mewtwo (but bear in mind that the Japanese use him a lot more than us). Duck Hunt seems rather high up. Maybe the Japanese use him more? Falco is also very low (again, do they even have a Keitaro esque player?)

Now onto the real offenders... How even is Roy the 4th worst character in the game? If we go by my standards again, if Marth and Lucina could be top of C, I could see Roy somewhere in the lower echelons of B. Ness is also extremely low. With all of his abilities, and how much he was buffed from Brawl, no way is he that low. Next up, I can see Meta Knight is good, but is he really 3rd best in the game? I can see he holds his own against the top tiers pretty well, but he doesn't have the best/most versatile combo game, not neutral. I'd say somehwere like 7th best, not 3rd best. And finally Cloud... it seems Abadango can't handle the Cloud scrubs online... Being serious, Cloud has great abilities, but he is also easily exploitable, and lots of his moves are very punishable. As a Rosalina main, I do think her placement is fine, but not S tier. Put her top of A tier.

There are other placements that look odd, but these are what stood out most to me.

 

[TDK]

After seeing the updated list at the Mewtwo social thread, I heavily questioned the placements of some of the characters...



The list is giving Meta Knight, Cloud, Sonic, and Rosalina too much credit, while Lucina is heavily underestimated.

Cloud is clearly being overestimated, since his recovery is a very situational one; without Limit Break, his recovery hardly offers any horizontal movement, and there's no way that anyone can ever be A+ material if they have a poor recovery.

Similarly, Sonic doesn't have any projectile attacks by his side, which does give him problems against the long-ranged attackers.

Wait, Pits above Fox, Peach, Falcon, Luigi, and Ness? And why is Ness so low? And MK/Cloud so high?

 

[Deleted member]

Y'all have to take into account that the Japanese have a far different metagame than we do, so that's probably why his list is coming off as so odd to most of you. I know Abadango goes to American tournaments, but still.

 

[aεrgiα]

That list... it feels like a mixture of "I can't use this character so it's bad" and "I suck against this character so it's good" to me.

There are a few placements that I feel are spot on. Bowser, Doc, Link, Diddy are a few. My main gripe with this list are the bottom tiers and more notoriously, the higher tiers.

Lucina is certainly not the worst character in the game, at all. Not even in the bottom tier by my views. I feel both her and Marth should be at least at the top of C. Ike should be higher up. I can't complain about Samus, her placement is fair. G&W seems a little over estimated, as does Mewtwo (but bear in mind that the Japanese use him a lot more than us). Duck Hunt seems rather high up. Maybe the Japanese use him more? Falco is also very low (again, do they even have a Keitaro esque player?)

Now onto the real offenders... How even is Roy the 4th worst character in the game? If we go by my standards again, if Marth and Lucina could be top of C, I could see Roy somewhere in the lower echelons of B. Ness is also extremely low. With all of his abilities, and how much he was buffed from Brawl, no way is he that low. Next up, I can see Meta Knight is good, but is he really 3rd best in the game? I can see he holds his own against the top tiers pretty well, but he doesn't have the best/most versatile combo game, not neutral. I'd say somehwere like 7th best, not 3rd best. And finally Cloud... it seems Abadango can't handle the Cloud scrubs online... Being serious, Cloud has great abilities, but he is also easily exploitable, and lots of his moves are very punishable. As a Rosalina main, I do think her placement is fine, but not S tier. Put her top of A tier.

There are other placements that look odd, but these are what stood out most to me.

i agree up until mewtwo, the japanese dont really use mewtwo either :/ at least not in tournament, i mean there was this "rumour going around that someone who got top 8 used mewtwo at an umebura, fun fact is, while thats true, he went mewtwo one game or set(i can remember which) and he lost it... ;p
duck hunt does have more/better rep in japan, brood and yusan(i believe thats the other one) are both very good dhd mains they dont have a good falco as far as im aware.

keep in mind that this tier list is NOT ordered within tiers, which in this case actually makes it worse imo, bc theres no way cloud and mk along with, taking your word for it here, rosa, are on the same level as zss and sheik.
the fact that cloud is so highly valued over there is due to his success in multiple tournaments, with komorikiri picking him up, and i believe rain too, i could be confusing that with someone else though :/

 

[Wintermelon43]

Abadango's list isn't in order

 

[IndigoSSB]

I sometimes wonder how abysmal the Falco representation is in Japan, because every tier list that spawns from there has him at the very bottom. Just look at the U.S., the representation isn't exactly good either, with Keitaro being one of the only players known outside of the regional level, but we still have him in a decent position in most tier lists.

They're really jumping the gun with Cloud too. Top 5 when he hasn't even been out a month? He has the potential with all of the kill setups people are finding, but they're literally working with flimsy data.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Can somebody PLEASE link me to a good cloud video so I can properely rate him and understand him? I can only find S@X cloud only tournaments -_-

 

[aεrgiα]

Can somebody PLEASE link me to a good cloud video so I can properely rate him and understand him? I can only find S@X cloud only tournaments -_-

ok, im sure theres more but this is all i found without spending too much time, heres two vids of the players that arguably make japan value cloud so highly

komorikiri:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ5HiRFTZ0Y

Rain:
https://youtu.be/EO_PISJ2upI?t=2m29s

 

[Bowserboy3]

i dont know which tier list you are looking at(i dont mean this in a negative way, is it abadangos or shus or was there a list i havnt seen yet like shi-g?) but abadango actually puts ike and dk in his c tier and i dont think they need buffs tbh :/ also roy in the bottom 2 tiers is amusing to me regardless though, i dont think a lack of representation is a reason to put characters that low, especially when they put bowser and robin above them but yeah, i do think most of the chars around that area of the tier list could do with some buffs, but looking at the patches up until now the patches seem to favour certain character despite others being in a much worse situation

also about cloud, while his recovery doesnt make him bad, it definitely holds him back, and while falco in brawl and melee didnt have a good recovery either, relative to the cast, it really wasnt as bad as clouds is in relation to smash 4s cast, also, brawl and melee falco had extremely "oppressive" traits to make up for it, cloud doesnt. dont get me wrong, i think hes better than what i initially put him at, and hes looking to be a staying force in the meta, i wouldnt put him at the same level as sheik and zss though, its not solely because of his recovery, but the fact that hes so gimpable instantly puts him at least a tier below those two imo,and its because those two have a better combo game, better safety on shield, they can threaten shields(have a throw game) while still being amazing at recovering. his bad recovery gives cloud an easily exploitable weakness which, imo, in this game isnt good enough for a top tier, i would probably place him top 15 in this game and i could potentially see top 10, but i think his weakness is just too much of an issue for top 5 :/

also, as a reference here are shu and abadangos tier lists

Spoiler

abadango:

Shu:

By the way, this is the list I was referring to in the post. It's the most recent Japanese tier list...

Spoiler: Most Recent Japanese Tier List

Like, some of the placements are out of place still by my standards, but I have no real problem in saying that all the characters ranked in the C range could do with a few buffs or a few fixes (also add to that list Gunner and DHD. Even though they get more rep in Japan clearly, they still have a couple of things that need fixing).

 

[aεrgiα]

By the way, this is the list I was referring to in the post. It's the most recent Japanese tier list...

Spoiler: Most Recent Japanese Tier List

View attachment 92181

Like, some of the placements are out of place still by my standards, but I have no real problem in saying that all the characters ranked in the C range could do with a few buffs or a few fixes (also add to that list Gunner and DHD. Even though they get more rep in Japan clearly, they still have a couple of things that need fixing).

thanks for that, i hadnt seen that list before and i can agree with that c tier all getting buffs, although roy needs them the least out of those chars, personally i would also add shulk to that list though, and maybe link :/

also for anyone who hasnt seen it (like me, f* timezones TT_TT ) theres some really good matches in the replays(im watching it rn, and damn ixis vs stark was a great set, ive seen ixis play before but that was really good, i can even say i enjoyed watching sonic for once o.O) and its getting me even more hype for genesis apparently there was also some good gunner play and komorikiri apparently went cloud, though im only 30 mins in so idk :/ heres the channel: http://www.twitch.tv/smashatscu/profile

 

[Bowserboy3]

thanks for that, i hadnt seen that list before and i can agree with that c tier all getting buffs, although roy needs them the least out of those chars, personally i would also add shulk to that list though, and maybe link :/

also for anyone who hasnt seen it (like me, f* timezones TT_TT ) theres some really good matches in the replays(im watching it rn, and damn ixis vs stark was a great set, ive seen ixis play before but that was really good, i can even say i enjoyed watching sonic for once o.O) and its getting me even more hype for genesis apparently there was also some good gunner play and komorikiri apparently went cloud, though im only 30 mins in so idk :/ heres the channel: http://www.twitch.tv/smashatscu/profile

Oh I actually just watched the most recent stream. The japanese invasion begins now!

 

[LRodC]

Also, care to explain your insight into why you think ZSS is worse than Sheik for him? Personally, i'd say that they are pretty much both as bad. ZSS could always kill him really early, but then again Sheik can combo and rack up damage on him easier than ZSS can. And Needles. But yeah, I'm not saying you are wrong, I just want to find out!

The reason why I say that is because ZSS has an insane punish game. She can punish you with one mistake at say 30% and KO you way quicker than Sheik ever can. Her neutral isn't as good as Sheik's but you pretty much have to be perfect or else you're extremely behind very quickly. Mewtwo gets KOed early and ZSS' combos are usually way more dangerous for him even if they're not as free as Sheik's.

Sheik isn't comfortable either by any means, but she just has an oppressive neutral. She isn't going to be killing you that early most of the time and she doesn't do anything horrific to Mewtwo that she doesn't do to anyone else. You have a good recovery and can fight her off stage, so gimps aren't as much of an issue compared to a lot of others she shuts down in that way. The stuff that makes ZSS good is more dangerous to Mewtwo than the stuff that makes Sheik good. That's why I think ZSS is worse. Both are poor MUs though so it's pretty arbitrary. ZSS 65:35, Sheik 60:40 IMO.

Also on another note, Mewtwo is usually not as tall as people like to say all the time. He's certainly not short, but people make him out to be one of the tallest in the game, which is not the case. He does not have Bowser or DK level hurtboxes, and Rosalina has a bigger one than he does. He's about 14-15th in height. Around Zelda height, I think. There's a picture of his hurtbox flying around on the Mewtwo boards somewhere, I'll have to see if I can find it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

The reason why I say that is because ZSS has an insane punish game. She can punish you with one mistake at say 30% and KO you way quicker than Sheik ever can. Her neutral isn't as good as Sheik's but you pretty much have to be perfect or else you're extremely behind very quickly. Mewtwo gets KOed early and ZSS' combos are usually way more dangerous for him even if they're not as free as Sheik's.

Sheik isn't comfortable either by any means, but she just has an oppressive neutral. She isn't going to be killing you that early most of the time and she doesn't do anything horrific to Mewtwo that she doesn't do to anyone else. You have a good recovery and can fight her off stage, so gimps aren't as much of an issue compared to a lot of others she shuts down in that way. The stuff that makes ZSS good is more dangerous to Mewtwo than the stuff that makes Sheik good. That's why I think ZSS is worse. Both are poor MUs though so it's pretty arbitrary. ZSS 65:35, Sheik 60:40 IMO.

Also on another note, Mewtwo is usually not as tall as people like to say all the time. He's certainly not short, but people make him out to be one of the tallest in the game, which is not the case. He does not have Bowser or DK level hurtboxes, and Rosalina has a bigger one than he does. He's about 14-15th in height. Around Zelda height, I think. There's a picture of his hurtbox flying around on the Mewtwo boards somewhere, I'll have to see if I can find it.

Yeah I'd be interested in seeing that image of his hurtbox if you can find it please.

And thanks for the insight!

 

[LRodC]

Yeah I'd be interested in seeing that image of his hurtbox if you can find it please.

And thanks for the insight!

Browny made a well-researched topic on his hurtbox here. Has lots of pictures and proves it's not as bad as people say it is. The only thing that extends it is some attacks like back air.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-misconceptions-about-mewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127

To be honest I think a lot of the talk about him having an actually bad hurtbox came from his Melee days when his tail was included in it and his shield did not cover him fully.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Browny made a well-researched topic on his hurtbox here. Has lots of pictures and proves it's not as bad as people say it is. The only thing that extends it is some attacks like back air.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-misconceptions-about-mewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127

To be honest I think a lot of the talk about him having an actually bad hurtbox came from his Melee days when his tail was included in it and his shield did not cover him fully.

Ahh, yes I remember seeing this a while back. It is good that his whole tail cannot be hit. That would have lead to a even harder time when in the air.