Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[aεrgiα]

'Ey guys, I want your input. Just a general consensus really.

Where do you all think is right now in the metagame? I've voiced my opinion about her several times, but I wanna hear what you all stand.

imo second worst in the game(as ive said before, 1111 brawler is easily worst imo), some qualities, but the negatives just outweigh them. no way to deal with shields, very few reliable kill moves, so struggles killing, her strength, aka edgeguarding, is a lot worse in this game than it was in any previous game due to the amazing recoveries most of the cast have, her recovery isnt what it used to be in comparison to the rest of the cast and considering off stage is supposed to be her domain, shes surprisingly easy to gimp. rest is randomly punishable "on kill" and jiggs being the lightest character does not make this any better, she has one of the worst sets of specials in the game, and her normals dont really make up for this jiggs hates trades, sadly it is very easy to just throw out hitboxes to trade with her, something pretty much any character is willing to do since jiggs is one of the lightest characters and also one of the floatiest, her ground game is abysmal, and sadly her air game does not make up for this

overall, while i could potentially see jiggs a bit better than second last(mainly due to some dedicated players putting in work with her), i dont see her anywhere outside of bottom 15

 

[Zerp]

'Ey guys, I want your input. Just a general consensus really.

Where do you all think is right now in the metagame? I've voiced my opinion about her several times, but I wanna hear what you all stand.

I feel she's just slightly above the bottom tier, despite the constant power creep going against her every patch, I still feel like her best traits, Rest, her aerial momentum, and Wall of Pain, are more valuable than 1111 and 's good traits and her bad traits are only on par with Zelda's and Brawler's, so I put her a rank higher than them. Not that it's much better to be a slot above the worst, she's still in a pretty terrible place right now in my opinion.

Honestly though, I feel like Jigglypuff was originally somewhat viable this game and she had a chance to be a reasonable influence in the metagame, it's just that her surroundings consistently got stronger over the months and she just kept on getting ignored. Jigglypuff's main problem this game is neglect. ;-;

 

[Wintermelon43]

I feel she's just slightly above the bottom tier, despite the constant power creep going against her every patch, I still feel like her best traits, Rest, her aerial momentum, and Wall of Pain, are more valuable than 1111 and 's good traits and her bad traits are only on par with Zelda's and Brawler's, so I put her a rank higher than them. Not that it's much better to be a slot above the worst, she's still in a pretty terrible place right now in my opinion.

Honestly though, I feel like Jigglypuff was originally somewhat viable this game and she had a chance to be a reasonable influence in the metagame, it's just that her surroundings consistently got stronger over the months and she just kept on getting ignored. Jigglypuff's main problem this game is neglect. ;-;

If she and King Dedede isn't buffed the next patch, the rebellion is starting. and I vote you to be the mockingpuff

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What really hurts Rest's viability is the fact that Star KOs are random occurrences now. Even if Jigglypuff KOs with Rest, if the target isn't Star KO'd, then that pretty much leaves Jigglypuff wide open for a potential revenge KO. Of course, this dilemma only happens if the opponent has two or more lives left.

 

[Dusk Pit]

'Ey guys, I want your input. Just a general consensus really.

Where do you all think is right now in the metagame? I've voiced my opinion about her several times, but I wanna hear what you all stand.

I think she is the worst one really. Puff lacks in many departments compared to other characters. She is fun to play as, though.

Might as well name my "top 5 worst" list:
1. Puff
2. Duck Hunt
3. Ganon
4. Zelda
5. Lucina

Oh, and I know nothing about miis

 

[Zerp]

If she and King Dedede isn't buffed the next patch, the rebellion is starting.

Yeah, if Jigglypuff or His Majesty Dedede don't get buffs eventually, you can bet that there will be more than a little backlash, and especially so if either of the new characters ends up being broken, that would certainly agitate a lot of people.

and I vote you to be the mockingpuff

What's a mockingpuff though? A Jigglypuff that laughs and mocks people endlessly until they side with us?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Yeah, if Jigglypuff or His Majesty Dedede don't get buffs eventually, you can bet that there will be more than a little backlash, and especially so if either of the new characters ends up being broken, that would certainly agitate a lot of people.

What's a mockingpuff though? A Jigglypuff that laughs and mocks people endlessly until they side with us?

A pun on the mockingjay in the hunger games. So the face of the rebellion

 

[Xandercosm]

'Ey guys, I want your input. Just a general consensus really.

Where do you all think is right now in the metagame? I've voiced my opinion about her several times, but I wanna hear what you all stand.

****ing DEAD. LAST.

 

[Furret24]

I think she is the worst one really. Puff lacks in many departments compared to other characters. She is fun to play as, though.

Might as well name my "top 5 worst" list:
1. Puff
2. Duck Hunt
3. Ganon
4. Zelda
5. Lucina

Oh, and I know nothing about miis

Is really that bad?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Is really that bad?

No.

Some people just play a bad Duck Hunt and assume he's bottom five afterward

 

[Deleted member]

Is really that bad?

He kinda is. His projectiles are laggy, his smashes consistently whiff especially at high percents (or with rage factored in), laughable recovery and not to mention pretty bad survivability. His complete lack of results here in the West is also something to be considered. I don't think there's a character unpopular as Duck Hunt in competitive play besides .

 

[Wintermelon43]

He kinda is. His projectiles are laggy, his smashes consistently whiff especially at high percents (or with rage factored in), laughable recovery and not to mention pretty bad survivability. His complete lack of results here in the West is also something to be considered. I don't think there's a character unpopular as Duck Hunt in competitive play besides .

Zelda. Mewtwo. Mii Gunner. Mii Swordfighter since CEO. Possibly Shulk

That's it though

 

[Furret24]

He kinda is. His projectiles are laggy, his smashes consistently whiff especially at high percents (or with rage factored in), laughable recovery and not to mention pretty bad survivability. His complete lack of results here in the West is also something to be considered. I don't think there's a character unpopular as Duck Hunt in competitive play besides .

A real shame. Atleast he has good mobility.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda. Mewtwo. Mii Gunner. Mii Swordfighter since CEO. Possibly Shulk

That's it though

Zelda at the very least has a player that's power-ranked, and he's gonna be going to Genesis 3. Abadango's using Mewtwo at Genesis too, so maybe we'll see a turn of events.

And the Miis are a weird case of being screwed over by set and weight restrictions, or some tournaments banning them outright.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Zelda at the very least has a player that's power-ranked, and he's gonna be going to Genesis 3. Abadango's using Mewtwo at Genesis too, so maybe we'll see a turn of events.

And the Miis are a weird case of being screwed over by set and weight restrictions, or some tournaments banning them outright.

Abadango hasn't played Mewtwo YET though, so it doesn't count. If he really does though, that could change.

And who's the Zelda player you're talking about? I don't remember there being a Zelda main

 

[Deleted member]

Abadango hasn't played Mewtwo YET though, so it doesn't count. If he really does though, that could change.

And who's the Zelda player you're talking about? I don't remember there being a Zelda main

@|ven|

This guy.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

He kinda is. His projectiles are laggy, his smashes consistently whiff especially at high percents (or with rage factored in), laughable recovery and not to mention pretty bad survivability. His complete lack of results here in the West is also something to be considered. I don't think there's a character unpopular as Duck Hunt in competitive play besides .

Duck Hunt's viability is hindered even further by the fact that the duo's offensive game is quite lackluster, and for a fighter who specializes on stage control, having laggy projectiles really hinders the duo's stage control game. And lastly, Duck Hunt heavily struggles to make quick KOs, since the duo's strongest attacks are not very reliable, and the attacks that can make KOs do require you to time their hitboxes properly to get the best possible results; even then, it's usually not until the opponent's current damage hits 150% that Duck Hunt even has a chance to make a KO. Even Shulk has an easier time KOing things sooner than Duck Hunt, and yet he's plagued by laggy aerial attacks.

 

[TDK]

I don't think Jigglypuff's dead last, but she'd definitely bottom 10.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Zelda. Mewtwo. Mii Gunner. Mii Swordfighter since CEO. Possibly Shulk

That's it though

At least Zelda HAD Nairo and Mewtwo has Mew^2. Mii Gunner has Chibo and Shulk has ZeRo love.

But I have yet, to this day, seen anyone pro or semipro player seriously use or at least endorse Jiggles.

Which sucks. Because Jiggles is spectacular.

 

[Deleted member]

At least Zelda HAD Nairo and Mewtwo has Mew^2. Mii Gunner has Chibo and Shulk has ZeRo love.

But I have yet, to this day, seen anyone pro or semipro player seriously use or at least endorse Jiggles.

Which sucks. Because Jiggles is spectacular.

ZeRo dropped Shulk like a rock though, lol

Well, Hungrybox gave Jiggs a chance in the early 3DS days (until he dropped her for Wario, then stopped paying much attention to Smash 4 altogether) and we still have Serynder (Poyo's younger brother) still playing her. There's also BrianYDG, who got 17th at Super Smash Con using Jiggs but he's been inactive mostly since then.

 

[Furret24]

But I have yet, to this day, seen anyone pro or semipro player seriously use or at least endorse Jiggles.

What about Serynder?

Which sucks. Because Jiggles is spectacular.

?

 

[TDK]

But I have yet, to this day, seen anyone pro or semipro player seriously use or at least endorse Jiggles.

Did you forget Serynder?

 

[atreyujames]

3 people saying the same thing in a row is 2 too many

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Did you forget Serynder?

No because I've never heard of him lol

My b, I don't watch that many vods anyways. But I've discussed this with people in my community and his name has never come up soooo.

3 people saying the same thing in a row is 2 too many

This guy gets it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Is really that bad?

No, the same as how also really isn't that bad.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My opinion on ... Certainly among the bottom 3 IMO. Unless she gets buffed, I see no way how she can even be considered viable. Usable, yes, but viable? Nope.

My opinions are always changing, but my bottom 5 at this moment include , , , and .

I'd also have been tempted to put a bit lower down. But my opinions on Dedede have been less harsh lately. Though I do think that he is much more viable than the five mentioned above, I can't see him out of bottom tier, especially when characters like and have been buffed. To be fair to Dedede, he does have a above average combo throw, and immense suitability, and does still have a few matchups that are supposedly slightly in his favour. I also know a pretty good Dedede player... you know who you are.


Also, food for thought on Bowser...

 

[Wintermelon43]

I think I'm the only one that sees potenial in Jigglypuff

 

[Deleted member]

No, the same as how also really isn't that bad.



My opinion on ... Certainly among the bottom 3 IMO. Unless she gets buffed, I see no way how she can even be considered viable. Usable, yes, but viable? Nope.

My opinions are always changing, but my bottom 5 at this moment include , , , and .

Default Pally is really bad. Godawful frame data especially for somebody so fragile as her, no kill confirms (and generally has trouble KOimg because her kill moves besides up air are all very laggy) and she has a very predictable gameplan that relies mostly on down throw. I can't ever see her being viable in the future unless she gets serious buffs, even though IceNinja won a Canadian national with her somehow but I'm willing to bet it was more due to a lack of MU experience with the character.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I think I'm the only one that sees potenial in Jigglypuff

It's a shame, but she really is just underwhelming in Smash 4. She isn't bad so to speak, but is a mixture of being just very "meh", and other characters having far better options than her. Again, it's a shame, considering how fun she was to play in Melee. I was really hoping she'd be at least be considered decent again.

 

[Deleted member]

It's a shame, but she really is just underwhelming in Smash 4. She isn't bad so to speak, but is a mixture of being just very "meh", and other characters having far better options than her. Again, it's a shame, considering how fun she was to play in Melee. I was really hoping she'd be at least be considered decent again.

I could literally write an essay as to how Jigglypuff is just an outright bad character even without taking other characters into account. Literally everything about her design serves as a counter to itself. Another issue is the game engine screwing her over. No edgehogging removes a huge amount of her edgeguarding potency in previous games, and infinite airdodges and faster rolls aren't fun to hear to deal with or attempt to punish either. Hell, she's even vulnerable to air release kill confirms by a good amount of characters, I'll be sharing a list of that soon.

 

[Wintermelon43]

It's a shame, but she really is just underwhelming in Smash 4. She isn't bad so to speak, but is a mixture of being just very "meh", and other characters having far better options than her. Again, it's a shame, considering how fun she was to play in Melee. I was really hoping she'd be at least be considered decent again.

This is all because she doesn't have somebody good representatling her. I mean, Seryender is good, but not good enough to do good outwide of Xanadu

I could literally write an essay as to how Jigglypuff is just an outright bad character even without taking other characters into account. Literally everything about her design serves as a counter to itself. Another issue is the game engine screwing her over. No edgehogging removes a huge amount of her edgeguarding potency in previous games, and infinite airdodges and faster rolls aren't fun to hear to deal with or attempt to punish either. Hell, she's even vulnerable to air release kill confirms by a good amount of characters, I'll be sharing a list of that soon.

Are you still in school? If you are, do this for your topic. Then send it to me, and I'll remove the lies, rumors, wrong info, etc. I'm sure your teacher will be okay with only one paragraph of information.

 

[Deleted member]

This is all because she doesn't have somebody good representatling her. I mean, Seryender is good, but not good enough to do good outwide of Xanadu

Nobody wants to play her because her general gameplan is risky and her design is so polarized that it ends up having little appeal to top players, especially when her weaknesses far outweigh her strengths. She has such little reward for somebody so light. At least Little Mac has actual results and multiple players.

To answer your thing though, BrianYDG got 17th at Super Smash Con with Jiggs so that's something. I dunno where he is these days.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Are you still in school? If you are, do this for your topic. Then send it to me, and I'll remove the lies, rumors, wrong info, etc. I'm sure your teacher will be okay with only one paragraph of information.

No need to be getting sarcastic xD

But @Feelicks made a few good points that never even occurred to me before. You can't deny that she can't edge hog effectively any more, and yeah, the air dodge system can prevent her from making any real plays. Add in the abundance of shield breaks, generally more powerful moves, and Jigglypuff is just in an environment that seems so against her. If she had a way to true combo into Rest at around kill percent, say 70ish, I could see her being taken more seriously. Or even if Up Tilt could actually hit in front of her, so she could start up an aerial juggle more easily. She just doesn't have that much going for her.

Just imagine if she had Kirby's Dair... that into Rest would be pretty sweet! At least then we would really have something to fear about Jigglypuff, similar to Bowser's Up Throw, DK's Cargo Throw etc.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

So my notifications didn't remind me about the activity that exploded on this thread, but the character impression thread on the competitive forum was talking about shulk's near even MU with Rosa. A lot of people were saying he can win the neutral, but loses offstage. This is without customs on(if customs, then it would be 100-0 rosa favor lol). I personally think that whoever has the momentum in the MU could win it.

Too bad Ally got bodied by Rosa playing as shulk though.

About jigglypuff, I think that she is bottom 5 with all the miis and Zelda rounding out the list. At least pound is a good move.

 

[Wintermelon43]

No need to be getting sarcastic xD

But @Feelicks made a few good points that never even occurred to me before. You can't deny that she can't edge hog effectively any more, and yeah, the air dodge system can prevent her from making any real plays. Add in the abundance of shield breaks, generally more powerful moves, and Jigglypuff is just in an environment that seems so against her. If she had a way to true combo into Rest at around kill percent, say 70ish, I could see her being taken more seriously. Just imagine if she had Kirby's Dair... that into Rest would be pertty sweet!

I could be wrong, since I never actually read or watched them, but I think @Jiggly found aome combos comboing into rest. Not sure what percent they work in though

No need to be getting sarcastic xD

But @Feelicks made a few good points that never even occurred to me before. You can't deny that she can't edge hog effectively any more, and yeah, the air dodge system can prevent her from making any real plays. Add in the abundance of shield breaks, generally more powerful moves, and Jigglypuff is just in an environment that seems so against her. If she had a way to true combo into Rest at around kill percent, say 70ish, I could see her being taken more seriously. Or even if Up Tilt could actually hit in front of her, so she could start up an aerial juggle more easily. She just doesn't have that much going for her.

Just imagine if she had Kirby's Dair... that into Rest would be pretty sweet! At least then we would really have something to fear about Jigglypuff, similar to Bowser's Up Throw, DK's Cargo Throw etc.

Don't give Sakurai that idea, He'll just take Kirby's down air and replace it with Jigglypuf's instead, without giving Jigglypuff Kirby's down air

"Here you go. APRIL FOOLS! Oh wait, it isn't april fools? Guess you have to keep it then"

-Masahiro Sakurai, Febuary 30th, 2016

 

[Zerp]

Gotta say, isn't it kind of odd that Zelda and Jigglypuff are commonly seen as bottom tier in both Brawl and Smash 4? You'd think that after Brawl, they'd get some sort of priority when balancing the game, like Meta Knight did, but apparently they didn't, lol.

Just imagine if she had Kirby's Dair... that into Rest would be pretty sweet! At least then we would really have something to fear about Jigglypuff, similar to Bowser's Up Throw, DK's Cargo Throw etc.

You make many fair points and I agree Puff is in a bad environment but, as a Jigglypuff main, I must point out that D-air to rest is actually a thing.

It's not too hard to pull off in a serious match either, it's a pretty nifty trick.

 

[Bowserboy3]

So my notifications didn't remind me about the activity that exploded on this thread, but the character impression thread on the competitive forum was talking about shulk's near even MU with Rosa. A lot of people were saying he can win the neutral, but loses offstage. This is without customs on(if customs, then it would be 100-0 rosa favor lol). I personally think that whoever has the momentum in the MU could win it.

Too bad Ally got bodied by Rosa playing as shulk though.

About jigglypuff, I think that she is bottom 5 with all the miis and Zelda rounding out the list. At least pound is a good move.

I can say that I do believe that most characters with a disjoint can handle Rosalina pretty well, whether they win, or bring the matchup closer to 50/50. I have been struggling a lot more against Shulk with Rosalina after his recent landing lag buffs. His aerials are long ranged, and though it's easy to bait and predict them, its a lot harder to get in and punish them now. Still, it doesn't change the fact that when Rosalina does get in, he's got a combination of perfect weight and fall speed to string Up Airs together. He does indeed get best off stage by Rosalina, assuming Luma is out and about.

If I am not using Rosalina myself, out of the other 3 characters I focus on, I feel most confident playing as Marth against Rosalina. In fact, I might even go as far to say that he's who I'd feel I have the best shot at beating her with. His disjoint helps him safely chip away at Luma, and since both the characters can excel in a "come to me" aspect, Marth can get rid of Luma in many ways by just being patient. Dash Attack is great at the ledge as it always gets rid of Luma. Dancing Blade also gets a mention too. On stages where you can go underneath, like Battlefield, Smashville and FD, it is actually pretty easy to Bair Rosalina's recovery (it's much harder on stages like Omega Kalos, Omega Pac Land etc due to the walls) as you hit her from just underneath the ledge. She can't recover straight upwards and think she's safe, as the walls on some Omega Stages can keep her a bit safer. If tipped, due to her light weight, it can kill as early as 70ish percent.

As always, I am not saying Marth is a counter to her, but I do feel he can go toe to toe with Rosalina when played correctly.

 

[Routa]

I wouldn't say that Palutena has bad frame data (if you only looks the moves that she uses mostly in her gameplan.., her tilts are slow as **** tbh). Unlike rest of the bottom tier she at least has a good gameplan and above average moves (dash attack and bair). Well why is she bad? Lack of mobility. It is the same reason why guest sized Miis are at/near bottom tier. Mobility is very important in a game like Sm4sh.

Also my opinion about Mii Gunner has changed. Think about fighting a Sonic. Annoying as **** right? Well fighting Gunner is like that but 10x more annoying. He/she/it can pretty much create a wall just with Fairs. Gunner has top lvl neutral game (maybe the best with correct size and set). But... Just like Swordfighter he has hard time killing compared to rest of the cast. Also his recovery is very very VERY bad. But that sweet neutral...

I'm atm at work so I will reply to other posts later...

Also I think DDD might be in bottom 5.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I wouldn't say that Palutena has bad frame data (if you only looks the moves that she uses mostly in her gameplan.., her tilts are slow as **** tbh). Unlike rest of the bottom tier she at least has a good gameplan and above average moves (dash attack and bair). Well why is she bad? Lack of mobility. It is the same reason why guest sized Miis are at/near bottom tier. Mobility is very important in a game like Sm4sh.

Also my opinion about Mii Gunner has changed. Think about fighting a Sonic. Annoying as **** right? Well fighting Gunner is like that but 10x more annoying. He/she/it can pretty much create a wall just with Fairs. Gunner has top lvl neutral game (maybe the best with correct size and set). But... Just like Swordfighter he has hard time killing compared to rest of the cast. Also his recovery is very very VERY bad. But that sweet neutral...

I'm atm at work so I will reply to other posts later...

Also I think DDD might be in bottom 5.

Play @Feelicks. You might not be as harsh on Dedede then.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I wouldn't say that Palutena has bad frame data (if you only looks the moves that she uses mostly in her gameplan.., her tilts are slow as **** tbh). Unlike rest of the bottom tier she at least has a good gameplan and above average moves (dash attack and bair). Well why is she bad? Lack of mobility. It is the same reason why guest sized Miis are at/near bottom tier. Mobility is very important in a game like Sm4sh.

Also my opinion about Mii Gunner has changed. Think about fighting a Sonic. Annoying as **** right? Well fighting Gunner is like that but 10x more annoying. He/she/it can pretty much create a wall just with Fairs. Gunner has top lvl neutral game (maybe the best with correct size and set). But... Just like Swordfighter he has hard time killing compared to rest of the cast. Also his recovery is very very VERY bad. But that sweet neutral...

I'm atm at work so I will reply to other posts later...

Also I think DDD might be in bottom 5.

Sorry, but this isn't June 2015. Please take your time traveling device and bring it to where you wanted it to go.

Thank you.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

No, the same as how also really isn't that bad.

Yeah I could never really understand why people state that Lucina is worse than Marth. Yes, her balanced attacks pack less power than Marth's tipped hits, but you don't have to worry about sourspots at all with Lucina's attacks. Lucina is simply less risky to use than Marth, since no spacing is needed to get the best possible results with her attacks, and from what I'm understanding, Lucina actually has some better match-ups than Marth.