Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Nessimator]

well before we get into the fun stuff lets get my vote out of the way;
,, ,
countervote +1
keeping my second countervote for later(if needed).

lets get some simple things out of the way first:
please, just look at the votes... look at them!!! theres already around 10/15 pika downvotes, sure i can wait until there are 40 pika downvotes...or i can vote now, doesnt really matter much does it? i can already see a clear trend, and if the table flips later on? well if that happens then i can REMOVE my pika countervote again...

I don't think removing the vote is a reliable answer bc we don't know if they are all counted at the end or if the person who runs this tallies the votes during the process. If he/she tallied them during the voting process then he/she likely won't look back to see what everyone has changed since then. However, if they only tally the votes at the last moment then what you're saying could work so...
I guess countervoting isn't that bad, but we still need to be careful.

 

[Equin0x]

The only ZSS players I can name off the top of my head are Nairo, VaBengal, and Officer Jenny.

Nick Riddle, V115, Choco, Dakpo, Salem, the Midwest (my scene) has three ZSS mains being myself, XYZ, and Nicole.

The only Pikachu player I can name off the top of my head is ESAM.

Nakat. Unfortunately that's the only other one I can name.

 

[David Viran]

,,,

+( There has been about 5 down votes for zss and only 1 up vote so counter vote)

There is no actual evidence that pika destorys zss at a high level. "but esam destroyed nairo," both sets went to game 5 and esam has significantly more experience in the MU. Nick Riddle also took esam to game 5 when both are well versed with each other and the MU while esam is considered the better player.

 

[Routa]

Nick Riddle, V115, Choco, Dakpo, Salem, the Midwest (my scene) has three ZSS mains being myself, XYZ, and Nicole.

Finland also has 1 note able ZSS player called Trifroze.

 

[lbrasz44]

-1 If I said the same thing for yoshi for having the theory but lacking the results, then by right I should apply this to pikachu just to not be hypocritical. Put him right in front of tier 2, as there actually is someone playing him and placing somewhat high, but not until a pikachu wins a tourney and gets more rep that he should be at the very top. Still a great character, but tier 1 is for the best of the best of the best, with not only the tools but accolades that back them up as well.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yellow = Blonde in my book.

What's stopping you from picking Yellow Yoshi then? Or as I like to call him, Loshi.


It's honestly perfect. No need to change anything. Except for one thing: is definitely the best character in the game.

 

[TDK]

What's stopping you from picking Yellow Yoshi then? Or as I like to call him, Loshi.

I think he means natural blondes.

 

[Dcas]

+1 Just to counter vote.

This tier deserves to stay this way. Pikachu and ZSS deservers optimal playstyle to get results, hence not many top placement with these chars.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think he means natural blondes.

There are Yoshis that are inherently a different color from birth. Green seems to be the dominant color, but Loshis are very common.

 

[TDK]

There are Yoshis that are inherently a different color from birth. Green seems to be the dominant color, but Loshis are very common.

Well, I think he was referring to character's whose "default" colour is Blonde/Yellow.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Well, I think he was referring to character's whose "default" colour is Blonde/Yellow.

That's racist.

 

[Apeirohaon]

what does pika even have that warrants his place in tier 1? his air game is meh. his ground game is meh. quick attack is cool but cant totally make a character. his edgeguarding is good but not the best. his recovery is good but so is most top tiers'. his combos are good but not as good as sheik/zss/ryu/mk/etc. his mu spread against the top 3 is one of the best but after that it's not all that great.

 

[TDK]

That's racist.

How is it racist? In fact, why are we even having this discussion in the first place?

 

[MarioMeteor]

How is it racist? In fact, why are we even having this discussion in the first place?

You're being discriminant against non-natural Loshis.

 

[DMWN]

+
+(Counter-vote)

 

[TimG57867]

-

 

[Evello]

-1 Pika is certainly good, but ESAM is still the only player to do anything notable with the little mouse. At this point I feel like Pika's good results are at least partially just due to ESAM's skill. Sure, Pika has to be good enough to not slow ESAM down, but not any more so than say Mario allows Ally to leverage his individual talent to win. I think Pika fits better with Mario, Sonic, Fox, and the other top tiers than in this tier. Sheik, ZSS, and Rosa have all had showings by multiple players at the national level and also have strong regional representatives.

 

[atreyujames]

+ (I may be exaggerating, but she should be placed in her own tier cuz of how good she is)

Just a question: If we countervote a character too much in this tier, there's still no chance that character will move to a higher tier, right? Even if pikachu got, say, +100 votes, would he still only be placed where people ranked him within the tier (which looks like 3rd or 4th)?

As an answer to your question and a mention to your vote, when we started this phase we voted for how many tiers would be on the list. Just as we couldn't move characters down a tier when voting for tier 7, we can't move characters into a higher tier in this round

 

[Dakpo]

,,,

+( There has been about 5 down votes for zss and only 1 up vote so counter vote)

There is no actual evidence that pika destorys zss at a high level. "but esam destroyed nairo," both sets went to game 5 and esam has significantly more experience in the MU. Nick Riddle also took esam to game 5 when both are well versed with each other and the MU while esam is considered the better player.

The match up is really difficult. Pikachu is almost everything that zss hates. Being so short, we cant use jab and up tilt as much. I would say it is definitely -1. It could be a little worse but I would stand by -1

 

[A10theHero]

+ (This makes the net vote on Pikachu -1)
If you don't think Pikachu gets much results, please refer to this and this.
Granted, it's somewhat limited (11th most used overall). Nonetheless, he does have results, but it's likely his high skill ceiling (ie. mastering Quick Attack ) limits this

 

[David Viran]

The match up is really difficult. Pikachu is almost everything that zss hates. Being so short, we cant use jab and up tilt as much. I would say it is definitely -1. It could be a little worse but I would stand by -1

Never argued against pika winning. Just said that because people talk about the MU like it's a hard counter.

 

[Dakpo]

Never argued against pika winning. Just said that because people talk about the MU like it's a hard counter.

Yea I know, I was just trying to help out. You said that there was no hard evidence about it so I thought my 2 cents would help that. What evidence would you like? The best thing I think I can do is shed some light over it. I've lost to pika, nairo loses to pika. Riddle has lost quite a few time to pika. Its one of the reasons I dont drop luigi

 

[Apeirohaon]

+ (This makes the net vote on Pikachu -1)
If you don't think Pikachu gets much results, please refer to this and this.
Granted, it's somewhat limited (11th most used overall). Nonetheless, he does have results, but it's likely his high skill ceiling (ie. mastering Quick Attack ) limits this

those are 90% locals and 95% of the players aren't notable at all

also being #11 is not something to be proud of lol

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

+1
+1

It is my humble opinion that all four of these characters are much better than the current tier 2. However, with Pikachu's incredible difficulty and Rosa's exploitable weaknesses, Sheik and ZSS simply outclass them. I think the best course of action would be to create a new tier. I don't really want this to be the case-- there's enough tiers already-- but it feels necessary.

 

[Stick Dude]

those are 90% locals and 95% of the players aren't notable at all

also being #11 is not something to be proud of lol

ZSS is 12th though.

 

[Dcas]

+1
+1

It is my humble opinion that all four of these characters are much better than the current tier 2. However, with Pikachu's incredible difficulty and Rosa's exploitable weaknesses, Sheik and ZSS simply outclass them. I think the best course of action would be to create a new tier. I don't really want this to be the case-- there's enough tiers already-- but it feels necessary.

Not at all, theres no need. Sure they might " be better " , but not for another whole new tier.

 

[Apeirohaon]

ZSS is 12th though.

even more evidence that those rankings don't mean much, then

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Not at all, theres no need. Sure they might " be better " , but not for another whole new tier.

It is my humble opinion

 

[atreyujames]

It is my humble opinion that all four of these characters are much better than the current tier 2. However, with Pikachu's incredible difficulty and Rosa's exploitable weaknesses, Sheik and ZSS simply outclass them. I think the best course of action would be to create a new tier. I don't really want this to be the case-- there's enough tiers already-- but it feels necessary.

when we started this phase we voted for how many tiers would be on the list. Just as we couldn't move characters down a tier when voting for tier 7, we can't move characters into a higher tier in this round

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

you quoted yourself

I know that-- I was one of the supporters for 7 tiers-- but I now just don't loke keeping them in the same tier. Whether it's on official record or not, I just wanted to throw it out there. I still have my current vote above.

 

[atreyujames]

Hey man, as long as you know, then do what you want



Pretty sure you also quoted yourself

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Hey man, as long as you know, then do what you want



Pretty sure you also quoted yourself

I did that on purpose tho

 

[atreyujames]

I did that on purpose tho

I did that on purpose tho... too

 

[Routa]

*looks at Pikachu counter votes*

It is Brawl all over again...

 

[DarkK]

1.

+1 He deserves to be tier 1 in my opinion. Honestly, second place can go to either or in my eyes, but Pikachu isn't getting enough representation, so I'll place him 3rd.

 

[Xandercosm]

You're being discriminant against non-natural Loshis.

It's really disgusting that the Loshi race is treated so horribly. We have to work as a society in the interest of giving Loshis a better existence.

 

[aεrgiα]

those are 90% locals and 95% of the players aren't notable at all

also being #11 is not something to be proud of lol

hmm well lets do the same thing with sheik then? most of her "results" are either zero or mr.r or they are at the regional level, the fact that theres a ton of players playing sheik and not even half as many pika players doesnt make this any better at all... u cant just discredit regionals like that unless u basically want to limit any talks about results to ->zero, nairo, dabuz, mr.r, komorikiri and ranai(sorry if ive missed any japanese players, i dont follow the scene that closely) because those are the only players consitently getting results... sure if we then move down to top 8 as results we can add in another ~10 players but really if u want any reliable statistic u need a large amount of values and atm, to get a reasonable "sample size" you would have to include regionals, if ur excluding high level play and only talk about top level play then u are currently mostly restricted to theorycrafting imo... which u can do ofc but talking about results, of one of the least used high tier characters(this includes top tier), and comparing it to other characters, which get many more people using them, is unfair, especially if u then discredit the place where there are results for said character... sorry if this came across as a rant, but i hate the "there are no results so char x is bad" logic, if no one in brawl had used meta knight(hypothetical situation) and therefore had no results would that make mk not the best char in that game?

 

[Routa]

The thing is that even if Pikachu had results he would still lack in theory. Everyone knows that Sheik is the best when you look at her theory. She also has the results to back it up.

Pikachu is indeed a regional threat but that does not mean he is in tier 1. For example Ike is a regional threat, but on national lvl he is not that big of a threat as Ryu or Sonic.

I want to point out again that Pikachu is basically everyway slighty worse than Mario (if we don't count edgeguarding).

 

[Wintermelon43]

Yeah, because Pikachu's theory is so bad. He's obviously crap.

Pikachu has like, the 3rd or 4th best theory in the game. He has amazing air attacks, good dash attack, great smashes, great up tilt, great combos, good range, great recovery, great matchups, great neutral, up, and down special, great throws, is really fast, with good frame data in many moves (Though there are some exceptions), and can very easily rack up damage. I'd dare say the only thing he's missing is KOing ability. The fact that he can barely KO complety screws him over. If he had better KOing ability, he would be better than Zero Suit Samus, possibly even better than Sheik. I hate that misconception that Pikachu's theory is terrible.

Do you wanna know what else I hate? The misconception that Pikachu has terrible results!!! The fact that Esam is doing so great with him js enough to make Pikachu has great results. Esam has gotten:

5th at CEO 2015 (Lost aganist ZeRo and Larry Lurr)

7th at EVO 2015 (Lost aganist Abadango and.... Could somebody tell me who else he lost aganist? I missed top 8 at EVO, and I can't find the bracket anyway)

2nd at Super Smash Con (Lost aganist ZeRo twice, got close to beating him at Winner's finals. Note that he beat Nairo twice here)

9th at The Big House 5 (Lost aganist Dabuz and ZeRo. THE 3RD AND 1ST BEST SMASH BROS PLAYERS!!!)

3rd at MLG (Lost aganist ZeRo and Nairo)

That is Top-Level playing. I mean, he got 13th at Paragon, but Dabuz got 9th at Super Smash Con, and that tournament was more low-Level than Paragon (Will, Angel Cortes, and Fatality were in top 8 that tourney). MVD got 9th there as well, along with getting below top 32 at both Big House 5 and MVG, Three of the loses being aganist random players (4th being ZeRo), and yet people still consider MVD the best Diddy (Not counting ZeRo, since he mainly uses Sheik). So how is Pikachu's results crap? With that logic, Diddy Kong has TERRIBLE, ABSOLUTE CRAP results. And it doesn't help at all that many people say Pikachu is worse than Diddy, despite Pikachu having better theory, matchups, AND results than Diddy. So it just doesn't make any sense.

So, Pikachu has the 3rd best theory, 5th or 6th best results (Smashboards doesn't count since all tournaments, even random ones no one knows about, is considered even than tournaments like EVO, and 1st is just as important as top 16 unless you set it top 8 or win), and 3rd best Matchups (Most likely, I don't know everything matchups obvisualy. But he seems to be the 3rd best there).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

+1 (Counter Vote) Pikachu deserves to be in this tier. He has great frame data, great edguadring, spacing if needed. Only thing i'd see as a problem is kill power but theres sheik. ^Wintermelon showed results.

+1 (Now I know Rosa will get downvotes, and she deserves this tier. Just dont down vote her.)

I would have used that vote on , but I saw people doing that already.


EDIT: THE ROSA VOTE WAS A COUNTER VOTE