Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Dcas]

Jigglypuff is pretty much Wario without the good things that make Wario so good (dem specials).

Anyways I think "unviable" might not be the best name for last tier within 3 tier system. I would say "underwhelming" would describe the tier better.

Sure, the names might not be optimal. Just wanted to offer my insights of less tiers, for example IMO tiers 4-5: sure there are some slightly more versatile characters and better MU but still the difference is not abysmal between lets say dr mario and falco ( both being played at top lvl) .

Mostly because as meta is progressing, theres a lot of counter picking involved so it basically comes to how many bad MU you have, again, implying this is being played at absolutely top lvl and not basing results on really small tourneys or FG ( which seems to be the case of a lot of people in here ).

EDIT: then again if this is community based tier then what i previously said might be not relevant. Since what the average community perceives as underwhelming might not the same in competitive lvl.

 

[Xandercosm]

I wish tierl ists never were based from statements as these above. You can see HUGE potential in Jiggli, doesnt matter unless you prove it with results and solid facts. Hence tier list should be only 3 tiers, not viable , viable and top tier.

Still, is your opinion and obviously you are allowed to state it.

I actually kind of like that idea. This game is so balanced that all we need are 3 tiers. They could separate the characters that are very viable from the pretty much viable from the least viable. It would help people better understand that every character is very viable in this game.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Well, Yoshi DOES have a randomly awkward hurtbox on his nose...

I thought that was fixed in this game?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I thought that was fixed in this game?

Nope

 

[HerpFish]

Oh, so now Loshi's are at fault because they don't have fur. Is there anything else you want to pick on them about? Like their noses?

Not really. I think that they're better without fur anyways.

More on-topic: While I feel that a 3-tier system, like the one from Dcas , could work as this game progresses, for now there are some bigger divides between character viability in what would be the "viable" tier as well as some gray area. Bowser Jr., for instance, has gotten into the top 32 of a national tournament, but really does not have much of a chance at getting first. Being in the top 32 almost makes me think that he would be in the viable tier, but knowing that he will most likely not win a national means that he belongs in the not viable tier. I think that the 5 tier system that @ItsMeBrandon proposed would be better because it further defines characters by the highest level that they can win at, but I'm not sure if this game has any characters that couldn't win a local yet. Just my 2 cents on the topic.

 

[Xandercosm]

Not really. I think that they're better without fur anyways.

More on-topic: While I feel that a 3-tier system, like the one from Dcas , could work as this game progresses, for now there are some bigger divides between character viability in what would be the "viable" tier as well as some gray area. Bowser Jr., for instance, has gotten into the top 32 of a national tournament, but really does not have much of a chance at getting first. Being in the top 32 almost makes me think that he would be in the viable tier, but knowing that he will most likely not win a national means that he belongs in the not viable tier. I think that the 5 tier system that @ItsMeBrandon proposed would be better because it further defines characters by the highest level that they can win at, but I'm not sure if this game has any characters that couldn't win a local yet. Just my 2 cents on the topic.

I think a 5 tier system could work too. Another thing is that there should be no S-tier. I think the current S-tier characters are good but they don't deserve a whole tier to themselves.

 

[Dcas]

Not really. I think that they're better without fur anyways.

More on-topic: While I feel that a 3-tier system, like the one from Dcas , could work as this game progresses, for now there are some bigger divides between character viability in what would be the "viable" tier as well as some gray area. Bowser Jr., for instance, has gotten into the top 32 of a national tournament, but really does not have much of a chance at getting first. Being in the top 32 almost makes me think that he would be in the viable tier, but knowing that he will most likely not win a national means that he belongs in the not viable tier. I think that the 5 tier system that @ItsMeBrandon proposed would be better because it further defines characters by the highest level that they can win at, but I'm not sure if this game has any characters that couldn't win a local yet. Just my 2 cents on the topic.

Yeah well 5 tier sorta work as well, my general idea is reducing the amount of tiers because the already given reasons.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

5 is better

 

[Stick Dude]

+1 Counter-vote

 

[IndigoSSB]

This is really off topic, but I picked up Falco these past few days. I must say, after exploring the character and learning his combos and abilities, I think he has the potential to be higher than he is on this list as of now..

As a Falco main I'll tell you right now, he's probably perfectly fine right where he is. If you're feeling a little nitpicky then perhaps a couple of spots higher, but nothing too drastic.

Falco has a great set of tilts, imo one of the best set of aerials, one of the best bairs in the game, a solid edgeguard game, and one of the characters with the most combo potential (possible outclassed by only Luigi, maybe). However, you start running into problems in tournaments that you wouldn't notice at first glance.

Falco's damage dealing abilities are top class, but like somebody said earlier he lacks an efficient way to get the finishing KO. This usually leads to Falco mains either fishing for Bairs or going for hard reads with smash attacks. Another things that's plagued us for a while is our agonizingly slow speed. With auto-cancel lasers gone, Falco is now built like a CQC specialist. However, Father Sakurai didn't give the bird enough speed to compensate for our new strategy, which means it's easy for Falco to get walled out by certain characters. That's why he'll have relatively even match ups with high tiers, and the have losing match ups with other mid/low tiers.

Don't get me wrong, Falco's now a universally better character than he was pre-buffs. He's now a viable character to main, but I'm just pointing out the issues that are keeping him in mid-tier.

-----------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Oh, btw, I'm not voting this round, I'm alright with all four characters staying at the top tier. Even if Pikachu and Rosalina are not as good as ZSS and Shiek (theoretically), those two are still significantly better than the characters in the tier below them. If anything I'll use them for counter votes later.

On the whole "Pikachu isn't that good, Esam is just that good of a player" charade, lets be honest. I know Nairo has already beaten Zero, but Esam had been just as close as Nairo had been up until that point. You can't dismiss a character just because of the lack of main popularity, Esam has shown us what Pika is capable of when optimized. If you're going to use that argument, then saying Ryu is high tier because Trela's the only Ryu main would be a hypocritical statement. Just because Ryu is difficult for a lot of players to optimize doesn't make him a worse character.

 

[TimG57867]

But the thing is, tier lists aren't just about objective quality and theorizing. You need a large amount results as well (at least that's what Tier Lists SHOULD incorporate) and sadly, Pikachu just doesn't have the level of results in all levels of play in all regions that the other 3 do. Also, I don't think is a good example. It would only be hypocritical if we were trying to argue that Pikachu should drop to Tier 2 while Ryu goes up to Tier 1. What makes the example worse is the fact that Ryu has top level success in Japan as well with 9B while Pikachu has zip there. I think Tier 2 describes characters who are practically on par with Tier 1 but don't have the good combination of theory, strength, and results/rep to justifiy a Tier 1 placement. In Pikachu's case, he's lacking too much in the results in rep/results department. This is the same reason dropped to 3. Just didn't have results to support his theory and strengths that the other tier 2's had. And if we're gonna play the ZeRo card, I might as well say should be Tier 1 because of what Anti was able to do. And the irony is that he'd technically have a better case because Anti was down one game after trying due to Mario having multiple top level reps in Ally, Anti, and Zenyou, etc. It's just not sound reasoning. I don't know if Pikachu will drop or not but I really don't think he'd look too out of place in Tier 2. I think we're just so used to seeing him there. And honestly, if we dropped Yoshi for that reason, giving the pass would be rather hypocritical in its own right. As Shaya put it previously:

"I don't think Pika is a shoe in for top anything if others get nerfed.
I do personally struggle to see him much higher than top ten. There's absolutely no way for me to look at Pikachu minus ESAM results and have anything to go by to rate him. Nearly every other high tier has a large and strong following at multiple levels, while Pika barely gets results at the local level.

If I wanted to be completely anti-Pika extremus while still somewhat fair, I'd put him with the Pits. Obviously a solid character with good strengths, but close to nothing to write home about.
Pika's edge guarding/off stage game? Pretty alright to pretty good.
Pika's grab game? Pretty alright.
Pika's ground game? Pretty good.
Pika's air game? Very average to below average.

Japan, despite anecdotes with ESAM, still doubt themselves putting him in top 20.
Pika comparatively had a lot longer history in Brawl of good results at local, regional and sometime national level and was generally seen as top fifteen. ESAM came in very late to actually give Pika top level representation but the majority of the competitive community were vehement Pikachu wasn't top tier.
In contrast, Pikachu is doing significantly worse in Smash4 as a character, yet a large group of people are willing to put him as top five.
If Pika was top 5 or as good as people like to believe and you can link me a few sets where ESAM doesn't lose to random characters or sub-top level players (or better yet: even when he does lose to ZeRo still) that's great and all but not helpful. Please pick up Pikachu and do well just like every top five character is doing, in the process you may kill your naivety or provide people like me evidence to the contrary of my thoughts.

Pika Aerial Safety is... pathetic for a character we consider good in this game. His ground game while solid is nothing special either.
To me he is a legitimate walking mini-hurtbox gimmick. His future right now vies firmly on Quick Attack's depth and potential, nothing else about him are in people's minds when they think about good moves in Smash4."

"You're the only person in this thread to ever think Sheik goes even with Pika and every time you incite said conversation you ignore what people say and bring up the same completely unaltered opinion at another opportunity.
I've seen Nairo annihilate Pika before as well. ESAM has a significant advantage in match up knowledge compared to his opponent's most of the time, in this case he has the second or third best NA ZSS to practice with heavily.
And yeah, I say gimmicks because only one player can get away with all these supposed strengths, how can he have a solid sets of tools to be a dominant top 5 threat when he has absolutely no dominance whatsoever?*
Pika being a soft counter or slight advantage on characters who don't have moveset-wide low to the ground hitting actions while solidly losing to the rest (of those at a high-tier power level) is why he is a gimmick, if you can understand why I think that and still comprehend a different opinion of your own I'd like to read it.

I think I do understand this character; I've been playing that character for longer than you've been talking or walking or perhaps were even conceived if your age is accurate; I've won things with this character by my side in three games (I've played Pikachu against ZeRo's Sheik in tournament). No, I don't understand him at the same level as ESAM or heavily committed Pikachu mains in Smash4. But everything I can understand, through objective data, my own experiences and the lack of anything tangible to contradict my thoughts (I really would like to see it though) is why I don't think he can claim top five at all. Top ten is zealous in my eyes but possible.

*I see a lot more dominant results from:


Rob and Oli start to push it. But otherwise....
Look beyond ESAM and Pikachu has close to nothing."

http://smashboards.com/threads/viab...ive-impressions.410551/page-221#post-20149212
http://smashboards.com/threads/viab...ive-impressions.410551/page-221#post-20149407


I don't agree with ever little thing he says, but overall he makes a good point. Each tier should be represented by its own respective level of objective quality, theroy, AND rep/results, and honestly Pikachu seems to fit in most with Tier 2. Tier 1 just seems to be pushing it a bit and as we've explained, Pikachu's theory is awesome, but not PERFECT. Not enough to disregard results and rep in my opinion.

 

[Dcas]

The problem with pikachu is that within his tier ( 1) is the character that has higher skill ceiling and sorta unorthodox neutral game compared to others. This is what hinders him from getting more representation meanwhile Mario, Sonic, fox, sheik, etc are more straightforward.

 

[TimG57867]

The problem with pikachu is that within his tier ( 1) is the character that has higher skill ceiling and sorta unorthodox neutral game compared to others. This is what hinders him from getting more representation meanwhile Mario, Sonic, fox, sheik, etc are more straightforward.

I get that, but I think that's too subjective of a reason to keep him in Tier 1. I mean people often regard as the most difficult top tier to use in Melee but he's got rep and results out the wazoo. Maybe further down the line when other Pikachu players start getting a grip on things and start getting good results too we could better justify a Tier 1 spot but until then, it's all the theory and too little substance. Honestly, Tier 2 isn't even a bad spot. He'd still be Top 5 number wise and it's not like the other characters there leagues weaker or anything. I don't know. I just think we're making too many excuses for the lack of results...

 

[Dcas]

I get that, but I think that's too subjective of a reason to keep him in Tier 1. I mean people often regard as the most difficult top tier to use in Melee but he's got rep and results out the wazoo. Maybe further down the line when other Pikachu players start getting a grip on things and start getting good results too we could better justify a Tier 1 spot but until then, it's all the theory and too little substance. Honestly, Tier 2 isn't even a bad spot. He'd still be Top 5 number wise and it's not like the other characters there leagues weaker or anything. I don't know. I just think we're making too many excuses for the lack of results...

True that, but fox didnt start to shine in melee till the game got some months-years on ( as in top lvl) so yeah, you might be right. At time pikachu might T2 solely for the unexplored / unused fact.

 

[Apeirohaon]

What part of Pikachu is so difficult? I don't see how he has a higher skill ceiling than, say, Sheik. His neutral is much less complex than Rosa's, yet Rosa has way better results. Heck, even Ryu has more reps than Pika and Ryu is obviously quite a bit harder to use.

 

[smashphan4]

No changes. These 4 are IMO, the best characters in the game

 

[A10theHero]

What part of Pikachu is so difficult? I don't see how he has a higher skill ceiling than, say, Sheik. His neutral is much less complex than Rosa's, yet Rosa has way better results. Heck, even Ryu has more reps than Pika and Ryu is obviously quite a bit harder to use.

There's a reason why ESAM still SDs from time to time. Quick Attack is more complex than it seems. Add in the ledge cancels, and it's much more difficult to master. And we're just talking about Quick Attack right now.
Regardless of where you think Pikachu belongs, it's important to understand the complexity of this move.

 

[Apeirohaon]

There's a reason why ESAM still SDs from time to time. Quick Attack is more complex than it seems. Add in the ledge cancels, and it's much more difficult to master. And we're just talking about Quick Attack right now.
Regardless of where you think Pikachu belongs, it's important to understand the complexity of this move.

It's a pretty tricky move to be sure, but to me at least it's not that hard to get down. Recovering with it isn't very difficult and in a lot of situations where they're useful ledge cancels are fairly easy (on DL/Lylat, in predefined places under BF platforms, and on moving platforms in T&C/SV)

also, what's there besides QA?

 

[A10theHero]

It's a pretty tricky move to be sure, but to me at least it's not that hard to get down. Recovering with it isn't very difficult and in a lot of situations where they're useful ledge cancels are fairly easy (on DL/Lylat, in predefined places under BF platforms, and on moving platforms in T&C/SV)

If you can do those in the heat of battle, then props to you. Even ESAM sometimes messes up with that.

also, what's there besides QA?

Right now, in the Pika boards, we're trying to get better at using up throw to Thunder when an opponent DIs to get the kill. So there's mastery of the inputs there.
Practicing to get the appropriate followups is important too. Pikachu's bread-and-butter "combos" use the same attacks (up tilt, and pretty much any aerial), but it's not as easily defined as, say, Mario's down throw to up tilt. I put "combos" in quotation marks because it's more of following DI and responding rather than having a guaranteed followup. The actual guaranteed part is somewhat limited.
I believe Sheik shares this similarity, but Pikachu is supposed to be played both offensively and defensively, and that requires knowing when to start rushing your opponent and when to back away and (sometimes) use Thunder Jolt.
You didn't mention it in your post (and I didn't mention it before; apologies), but I want to emphasize Quick Attack's versatility in these scenarios. It can be used to initiate a string of attacks (because the second part of Quick Attack hits an opponent upwards in a favorable position). Also, if spaced properly, Quick Attack can help you get in a smash attack or some other attack that leads to racking up damage (the move itself already can be used to rack up damage too). In addition, it can reset the neutral when necessary. So yeah, Quick Attack mastery is important in these situations as well.

 

[Browny]

UPDATED

That was neck and neck between Pikachu and Rosalina, with Pikachu edging it out by just 2 votes!

The final round is upon us. People are allowed ONE vote one a character to move them up or down, use it on who you think is the most out of place in the entire list.

COUNTER VOTES WILL BE IGNORED.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Since I can't +1, I'll just give a +1 to unless someone(or myself)changes my mind otherwise.

 

[Deleted member]

+

I might change it if I'm the only one.

 

[atreyujames]

-1 . From start to finish, I've stood by the opinion that Robin is worse than all those surrounding her. I believe tier 6 suits her best. Everyone else I've basically settled with now.

 

[Rinku リンク]

+1Honestly she's not the best but she's not the worse either. Nairos clearly shown that in competitive play. Though I doubt anyone else is going to vote her up.

 

[AlphaSSB]

+: I feel that Fox is very underestimated. He's easily a Top 5 contender, and his game is constantly evolving. He may not be as good as , but he's still top tier.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

+: I feel that Fox is very underestimated. He's easily a Top 5 contender, and his game is constantly evolving. He may not be as good as , but he's still top tier.

Now I kinda want Melee Fox's voice on Sm4sh Fox

 

[phire_]

+ I'm not too convinced that the nerfs he recieved are enough to send him this low. Sure, they were relatively big nerfs, but I don't think Luigi's that worse.

 

[lbrasz44]

+1 The potential and versatility that G&W has is too great to be ignored imo. Should be within the middle of tier 4, as he has much better options than those at the bottom of that tier, while still needing to get over the hump and explode in representation and results.

 

[IndigoSSB]

- He ended up at the top of tier 3 because he got voted down from tier 2. I'm using my down vote on him because I think there are a couple of characters in this tier that are better.

 

[TDK]

+1 She isn't the worst character in the game.

-1 he should really be below Peach.

 

[Routa]

+1 She isn't the worst character in the game.

-1 he should really be below Peach.

Wasn't it 1 vote this round?

Anyways Browny what was the Mii size policy again? Guest or all sizes?

*Sees No Counter-votes sign*
*Sees people upvoting Zelda*
Why u do dis?

 

[AlphaSSB]

Now I kinda want Melee Fox's voice on Sm4sh Fox

One day we'll be able to do so... one day....

 

[DarkK]

+ just a little bit higher

I'm curious as to how counter votes are going to be ignored. Say, someone wants to move up while someone else wants him to go down. Wouldn't these votes counter each other?

 

[Scamper52596]

+1 I really don't feel like Zelda is the worst in the game. She takes a lot of dedication to master, but I believe she has what it takes to be just a little higher on the tier list.

 

[Dcas]

+

He got all the tools even his " low killing power" is not that low, better than sheik's. He got results, he got frame data, impressive speed, etc. He deserves to be top 5 material.

 

[Stick Dude]

UPDATED

That was neck and neck between Pikachu and Rosalina, with Pikachu edging it out by just 2 votes!

The final round is upon us. People are allowed ONE vote one a character to move them up or down, use it on who you think is the most out of place in the entire list.

COUNTER VOTES WILL BE IGNORED.

How do you know what's a counter-vote and what's not?

 

[Bowserboy3]

+1 : I think he should be at least where Falco is on this list. It's a shame I can't bump Lucina up a bit in her tier as well, as ideally that is what I would do, but seeing as it is just one vote, I have to go Marth.

This was really, REALLY tough for me to decide between and , who I believe both are misplaced, Samus sorley misplaced, and it saddens me to think that I would probably be the only one voting for Samus to move upwards, where as I could see a few Marth votes maybe... who knows. If I do happen to see some of you beautiful people voting up Samus too, I may change my vote. Either way, I want to see one of these two characters move up a bit.

 

[Bowserboy3]

True that, but fox didnt start to shine in melee

Oh you...

 

[Zerp]

Browny If it doesn't bug you, may I ask why counter votes are going to be ignored, I've always felt like they work since they allow the public to say "No, this is not what we want" when needed? I'm guessing it's to incite movement in the tiers?

+ 1 I'm under the impression that he is very, very powerful in the current meta, make just one mistake and you'll get hit with a dash attack, which then leads into a U-Air string, which then leads into Shuttle-Loop, which may or may not kill you. His punish options are simply phenomenal, he actually has results, has absurd kill power, Mach Tornado is a easy 21%, and he has a absolute plethora of potential true combos, even some zero to deaths.

Spoiler: A few visual examples

 

[Cheap Shot]

+ The guy has one of the best recoveries in the game, awesome combo and edgeguarding game and has some fantastic smashes and aerial moves.