Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[MarioMeteor]

It's really disgusting that the Loshi race is treated so horribly. We have to work as a society in the interest of giving Loshis a better existence.

This man gets it.

 

[HerpFish]

No votes for me this round. I would countervote for Pikachu, but I think it might be getting close to being more upvotes than downvotes at this point. I haven't counted, but it seems close.

Side-note: Pikachu is blonde because he has fur, where as a Yellow Yoshi is not due to the lack of fur. In my mind at least, blonde generally refers hair color.

 

[TimG57867]

Yeah, because Pikachu's theory is so bad. He's obviously crap.

Pikachu has like, the 3rd or 4th best theory in the game. He has amazing air attacks, good dash attack, great smashes, great up tilt, great combos, good range, great recovery, great matchups, great neutral, up, and down special, great throws, is really fast, with good frame data in many moves (Though there are some exceptions), and can very easily rack up damage. I'd dare say the only thing he's missing is KOing ability. The fact that he can barely KO complety screws him over. If he had better KOing ability, he would be better than Zero Suit Samus, possibly even better than Sheik. I hate that misconception that Pikachu's theory is terrible.

Do you wanna know what else I hate? The misconception that Pikachu has terrible results!!! The fact that Esam is doing so great with him js enough to make Pikachu has great results. Esam has gotten:

5th at CEO 2015 (Lost aganist ZeRo and Larry Lurr)

7th at EVO 2015 (Lost aganist Abadango and.... Could somebody tell me who else he lost aganist? I missed top 8 at EVO, and I can't find the bracket anyway)

2nd at Super Smash Con (Lost aganist ZeRo twice, got close to beating him at Winner's finals. Note that he beat Nairo twice here)

9th at The Big House 5 (Lost aganist Dabuz and ZeRo. THE 3RD AND 1ST BEST SMASH BROS PLAYERS!!!)

3rd at MLG (Lost aganist ZeRo and Nairo)

That is Top-Level playing. I mean, he got 13th at Paragon, but Dabuz got 9th at Super Smash Con, and that tournament was more low-Level than Paragon (Will, Angel Cortes, and Fatality were in top 8 that tourney). MVD got 9th there as well, along with getting below top 32 at both Big House 5 and MVG, Three of the loses being aganist random players (4th being ZeRo), and yet people still consider MVD the best Diddy (Not counting ZeRo, since he mainly uses Sheik). So how is Pikachu's results crap? With that logic, Diddy Kong has TERRIBLE, ABSOLUTE CRAP results. And it doesn't help at all that many people say Pikachu is worse than Diddy, despite Pikachu having better theory, matchups, AND results than Diddy. So it just doesn't make any sense.

So, Pikachu has the 3rd best theory, 5th or 6th best results (Smashboards doesn't count since all tournaments, even random ones no one knows about, is considered even than tournaments like EVO, and 1st is just as important as top 16 unless you set it top 8 or win), and 3rd best Matchups (Most likely, I don't know everything matchups obvisualy. But he seems to be the 3rd best there).

But that's the problem here: all those results are from ESAM ALONE. People know that Pikachu technically has good national results. The problem is that all those results are coming from ONE person. All the other characters in his tier and below have had at least 2 people or more show up in the highest rankings at tournaments. People who play other characters below Pikachu on this list may not place as high (at least as often) but the fact that multiple people are capable of getting top rankings with the character makes people more confident that the characters are legitimately that good and not that it's just the player that's making them seem godly.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Pikachu should drop (I am still mixed on the issue) but this is not a good argument. The fact that you could only reference ESAM for results is just proving many people's point here: that ESAM's high level placings has more to do with his own skill and advantage in matchup knowledge rather than the character being good. Again, don't get me wrong, I'd be all for a solid argument that Pikachu deserves to Tier 1 but this is not it. As for the other points you made, I think we should consider a post SolidSense made a while ago:

http://smashboards.com/threads/viab...ive-impressions.410551/page-221#post-20149585

"
Pikachu is a counterpick character against Falcon, ZSS, and Rosalina, has one of the best Sheik MUs in the game, and is a hardcore anti-zoner (characters like Pacman, Robin, and Duck Hunt can't play their normal game because of QA and ground mobility). So there are plenty of reason to use him, but I just can't see him as a viable solo main. He loses to Mario, Luigi, Ness, and Fox at least, and then goes even with a bunch of random characters like Ike or Peach. I've seen people claim that he doesn't have weaknesses.Please stop saying this. He does.

• Mediocre initial dash so ground mobility is restricted to running or walking (both of which are good, and he has good options out of both, but initial dashing is a big part of the metagame especially in top tier).
• Air speed is lousy so contesting characters like Mario air to air is difficult
• Landing lag is above average on his aerials so you can't really space air to ground
• His hitlag modifiers for ramming shields is enormous, so if you hit a shield with an electric attack you're toast (people aren't abusing shield vs. Pikachu as much as they could be, just note the difference between when Pikachu uses f-smash and whiffs completely vs. when Pikachu uses f-smash on a shield)
• Lack of reliable KO confirms against shield, poor grab range
• No way to kill an opponent in the air except for Thunder
• Low weight

Now, let's not go overboard and make claims such as that he doesn't have great/top-tier edgeguarding (because he does), or even more that he relies on his small size to win matches. The small size has a little to do with it but isn't the main factor to his niche as a character, which comes from his tremendous disadvantaged state. Great recovery, f3 n-air, f2 up-air with disjoint, QA, b-air as a landing option, Thunder escapes... there are really very few characters I would rather have than Pikachu when it comes to being in disadvantage (actually none, come to think of it). You can get out of so many bad situations with his tools, it's pretty nuts. In neutral, QA holds him together. And of course his advantage is pretty great because of the edgeguarding though he can't kill. But his disadvantage is really the reason to play Pikachu."

Aside from the bit on shield hitlag, everything still stands. I mean we shouldn't forget his all round poor range which means that he'll have issues challenging disjoints and is often forced to get up close a lot. Plus another weakness is that QA has no "priority". As in, if it runs into any hitbox, i'll get snuffed out completely. Character's with lingering hitboxes like Mario and Sheik can exploit this counter QA spam. ESAM even made a video about it. It's definitely one of the best moves in the game, but I think it gets a little too much respect. Plus QA seems to have this bizarre property to which massive increases the size of Pikachu's hurtbox during part of it:

http://imgur.com/qLL55cR

Might not seem like a big deal, but that could very well cause Pikachu to get beaned by a kill move that might otherwise not have hit. Take what happens at 1:32 in this video for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlXQs-Bk0Y8


Pikachu is a marvelous character, no question about it, but he's not THAT infallible both theory and matchup wise. Once again, I am not saying he should drop, but lets not overlook these issues. I think that at the very least, he should be at the bottom of his tier because the other 3 at least have both results, theory, AND rep.

 

[Wintermelon43]

But that's the problem here: all those results are from ESAM ALONE. People know that Pikachu technically has good national results. The problem is that all those results are coming from ONE person. All the other characters in his tier and below have had at least 2 people or more show up in the highest rankings at tournaments. People who play other characters below Pikachu on this list may not place as high (at least as often) but the fact that multiple people are capable of getting top rankings with the character makes people more confident that the characters are legitimately that good and not that it's just the player that's making them seem godly.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Pikachu should drop (I am still mixed on the issue) but this is not a good argument. The fact that you could only reference ESAM for results is just proving many people's point here: that ESAM's high level placings has more to do with his own skill and advantage in matchup knowledge rather than the character being good. Again, don't get me wrong, I'd be all for a solid argument that Pikachu deserves to Tier 1 but this is not it. As for the other points you made, I think we should consider a post SolidSense made a while ago:

http://smashboards.com/threads/viab...ive-impressions.410551/page-221#post-20149585

"
Pikachu is a counterpick character against Falcon, ZSS, and Rosalina, has one of the best Sheik MUs in the game, and is a hardcore anti-zoner (characters like Pacman, Robin, and Duck Hunt can't play their normal game because of QA and ground mobility). So there are plenty of reason to use him, but I just can't see him as a viable solo main. He loses to Mario, Luigi, Ness, and Fox at least, and then goes even with a bunch of random characters like Ike or Peach. I've seen people claim that he doesn't have weaknesses.Please stop saying this. He does.

• Mediocre initial dash so ground mobility is restricted to running or walking (both of which are good, and he has good options out of both, but initial dashing is a big part of the metagame especially in top tier).
• Air speed is lousy so contesting characters like Mario air to air is difficult
• Landing lag is above average on his aerials so you can't really space air to ground
• His hitlag modifiers for ramming shields is enormous, so if you hit a shield with an electric attack you're toast (people aren't abusing shield vs. Pikachu as much as they could be, just note the difference between when Pikachu uses f-smash and whiffs completely vs. when Pikachu uses f-smash on a shield)
• Lack of reliable KO confirms against shield, poor grab range
• No way to kill an opponent in the air except for Thunder
• Low weight

Now, let's not go overboard and make claims such as that he doesn't have great/top-tier edgeguarding (because he does), or even more that he relies on his small size to win matches. The small size has a little to do with it but isn't the main factor to his niche as a character, which comes from his tremendous disadvantaged state. Great recovery, f3 n-air, f2 up-air with disjoint, QA, b-air as a landing option, Thunder escapes... there are really very few characters I would rather have than Pikachu when it comes to being in disadvantage (actually none, come to think of it). You can get out of so many bad situations with his tools, it's pretty nuts. In neutral, QA holds him together. And of course his advantage is pretty great because of the edgeguarding though he can't kill. But his disadvantage is really the reason to play Pikachu."

Aside from the bit on shield hitlag, everything still stands. Plus another weakness is that QA has no "priority". As in, if it runs into any hitbox, i'll get snuffed out completely. Character's with lingering hitboxes like Mario and Sheik can exploit this counter QA spam. ESAM even made a video about it. It's definitely one of the best moves in the game, but I think it gets a little too much respect. Plus QA seems to have this bizarre property to which massive increases the size of Pikachu's hurtbox during part of it:

http://imgur.com/qLL55cR

Might not seem like a big deal, but that could very well cause Pikachu to get beaned by a kill move that might otherwise not have hit. Take what happens at 1:32 in this video for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlXQs-Bk0Y8


Pikachu is a marvelous character, no question about it, but he's not THAT infallible both theory and matchup wise. Once again, I am not saying he should drop, but lets not overlook these issues. I think that at the very least, he should be at the bottom of his tier because the other 3 at least have both results, theory, AND rep.

Jigglypuff in Melee is only played by Hungrybox, and she still is the 5th best character.

 

[TimG57867]

Jigglypuff in Melee is only played by Hungrybox, and she still is the 5th best character.

Famous rep sure. But she gets other people placing in Top rankings in Melee tournaments as well.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I'm still confused on why people downvote Pika. Results? He has plenty of those, flaws very similar to sheiks and AMAZING PROS. Pika has good theory and good results. If there was only 1 sheik player, she would still be 1st.


EDIT: Also, how did Mario get 1st in T2 when there were so many Sonic ones first.

 

[Zerp]

+ 1
+ 1

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I'm still confused on why people downvote Pika. Results? He has plenty of those, flaws very similar to sheiks and AMAZING PROS. Pika has good theory and good results. If there was only 1 sheik player, she would still be 1st.


EDIT: Also, how did Mario get 1st in T2 when there were so many Sonic ones first.

Because he's Mario

 

[TSmasher1000]

- He's really good in theory. Has a lot of the same pros that Sheik has and even some over her (the biggest reason why she would be better is because of those damn needles, her range, tech etc., but he has better kill options; no Sheik's d-throw is not a 50-50 since any time u-air is a kill option you can actually jump out of her d-throw, he also has the best recovery in the game etc.), but the thing is that I feel like he just hasn't had the results to back it up. The only really dominant Pikachu we've seen is ESam. All of the other characters have either more than one dominant player (Rayquaza, Dabuz, Vinnie, ZeRo, etc.) or else in ZSS's case a player that's way dominant. In theory isn't good enough without the statistics and recently ESam's average placing is rarely above top 5, especially in majors. If we were to go off of theory all the time, then in theory pre-patch Villager should have been top 10 because in theory he had a good MU against pre-patch Diddy. He deserves to be in this tier though. Nobody deserves to really be moved down in this tier. Won't put countervotes though, because I think it's pretty close to 0 right now.

+1 - Possibly the character with the best spacing in the game and the best wall in the game. Also I feel like she's going to get a lot of downvotes, but she does deserve to be in this tier.

 

[CyroX]

I believe it should stay as it is, with one extra addition.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I believe it should stay as it is, with one extra addition.

Shaq should be first

 

[CleanOgre]

Alright, Pikachu has ESAM as a rep isn't new, but who else represents and places with Pikachu at a top or high level? I can't see Pikachu as tier 1 when he only has one rep at a top level.

 

[Routa]

Not Sheik lvl theory =/= Crap theory

Like others have said is by no means a bad character, but it seems like people once again forget how important safety is. It is Roy vs Marth/Ike all over again. Anyways let's not start that conversation again...

Every character has their flaws, so there is no reason to ignore them. The thing is that we have to look at both good and bad things about characters. Mario for example has great frame data, over the top theory, unmatchable combo game (well if we don't count Diddy), far from terrible disadvantage state, good advantage state, good neutral, no undoable MUs, 2nd best OoS game (Doc is the OoS King), a lot of results on regionals and national lvl. The thing is that Mario has hard time killing and his recovery isn't top lvl. There are a lot of reasons why people think Mario is in top 5/10. On paper Mario, the character in tier 2, has a lot more going for himself than Pikachu has. You guys see now why I don't think Pikachu doesn't fit to tier 1?

 

[Xandercosm]

Ok, time for my second vote:

-1 For the same reasons that everyone else stated. Honestly, I don't understand how Pika even got to tier 1 so universally. One day he was like low-mid tier, the next he was up there with Sheik on all tier lists. He definitely doesn't deserve it. In fact, I think he should mid tier 2. Below Mario and Sonic.

 

[Bowserboy3]

For the record, I think nobody deserves to move up or down here.

1:

Note: I think ZSS and Pika could go either way

- Sheik is pretty self explanatory, and somebody who I think we can all agree on.
- ZSS ranks at my number 2. Even if it is just the fact that this character was the one to take down ZeRo's Sheik, but it isn't just that. Though reliant on grabs a bit, has great control of the stage with her paralyser and really good recovery, great movement, and the potential to end stocks real early. Though her neutral isn't that great, her conversion for winning neutral is what makes her rewarding.
- Pikachu though really has only one player pushing him, just a look at the character proves that he is better than tier 2. Great combo game, great projectile for gimps and forcing approaches, great multi hit moves (something some characters dislike, Ryu for example), pretty solid KO power, as has moves that can lead into KO's, but arguably the best move in the game for forcing a neutral. If Pikachu is in a tough situation, Quick Attack back to neutral. The best move in the game for just resetting, and Pikachu isn't that bad at winning neutral. If he had a tough time in neutral, maybe this wouldn't be such a strong option, but he has a good neutral too.
- I know a lot about Rosalina, she has been my true main since the game released (#waifu4laifu). I think she is certainly in the top tier, certainly not tier 2, but I think the other characters just edge her out a bit... not by much though. The other three characters have a decent way to deal with Luma. They all have better recoveries (remember, its not just distance, its options and hitboxes). Rosalina has the best distance on her recovery move, but it has no hitbox, and it's her only option, where as the other characters have 2 or 3 options. Rosalina however, has the best keep away and defensive options in the game. She can potentially shut down certain characters, and forces some really polarising matchups (Ness, Lucas Pac-Man for example). She can stop Pika and ZSS's projectiles, which can put them both in a tough spot. And not to be out done, Rosalina has just as good frame data on her moves as the other characters, especially with Luma. Combined, hitboxes last long and are much more active, lots of moves have more range and KO power (and her moves alone have decent kill power anyway, Fsmash especially) has better follow ups etc.

 

[Apeirohaon]

hmm well lets do the same thing with sheik then? most of her "results" are either zero or mr.r or they are at the regional level, the fact that theres a ton of players playing sheik and not even half as many pika players doesnt make this any better at all... u cant just discredit regionals like that unless u basically want to limit any talks about results to ->zero, nairo, dabuz, mr.r, komorikiri and ranai(sorry if ive missed any japanese players, i dont follow the scene that closely) because those are the only players consitently getting results... sure if we then move down to top 8 as results we can add in another ~10 players but really if u want any reliable statistic u need a large amount of values and atm, to get a reasonable "sample size" you would have to include regionals, if ur excluding high level play and only talk about top level play then u are currently mostly restricted to theorycrafting imo... which u can do ofc but talking about results, of one of the least used high tier characters(this includes top tier), and comparing it to other characters, which get many more people using them, is unfair, especially if u then discredit the place where there are results for said character... sorry if this came across as a rant, but i hate the "there are no results so char x is bad" logic, if no one in brawl had used meta knight(hypothetical situation) and therefore had no results would that make mk not the best char in that game?

im not discrediting regionals, i think theyre pretty important. but most of those tournaments are little tiny local with literally nobody notable. there are only 2 top 100 players that use pikachu, and then the next best one is like 3rd on the pr of some weak region.
and your hypothetical situation doesnt really work, since because meta knight is the best, people used him. pikachu is not the best so less people use him.

Yeah, because Pikachu's theory is so bad. He's obviously crap.

Pikachu has like, the 3rd or 4th best theory in the game. He has amazing air attacks, good dash attack, great smashes, great up tilt, great combos, good range, great recovery, great matchups, great neutral, up, and down special, great throws, is really fast, with good frame data in many moves (Though there are some exceptions), and can very easily rack up damage. I'd dare say the only thing he's missing is KOing ability. The fact that he can barely KO complety screws him over. If he had better KOing ability, he would be better than Zero Suit Samus, possibly even better than Sheik. I hate that misconception that Pikachu's theory is terrible.

Do you wanna know what else I hate? The misconception that Pikachu has terrible results!!! The fact that Esam is doing so great with him js enough to make Pikachu has great results. Esam has gotten:

5th at CEO 2015 (Lost aganist ZeRo and Larry Lurr)

7th at EVO 2015 (Lost aganist Abadango and.... Could somebody tell me who else he lost aganist? I missed top 8 at EVO, and I can't find the bracket anyway)

2nd at Super Smash Con (Lost aganist ZeRo twice, got close to beating him at Winner's finals. Note that he beat Nairo twice here)

9th at The Big House 5 (Lost aganist Dabuz and ZeRo. THE 3RD AND 1ST BEST SMASH BROS PLAYERS!!!)

3rd at MLG (Lost aganist ZeRo and Nairo)

That is Top-Level playing. I mean, he got 13th at Paragon, but Dabuz got 9th at Super Smash Con, and that tournament was more low-Level than Paragon (Will, Angel Cortes, and Fatality were in top 8 that tourney). MVD got 9th there as well, along with getting below top 32 at both Big House 5 and MVG, Three of the loses being aganist random players (4th being ZeRo), and yet people still consider MVD the best Diddy (Not counting ZeRo, since he mainly uses Sheik). So how is Pikachu's results crap? With that logic, Diddy Kong has TERRIBLE, ABSOLUTE CRAP results. And it doesn't help at all that many people say Pikachu is worse than Diddy, despite Pikachu having better theory, matchups, AND results than Diddy. So it just doesn't make any sense.

So, Pikachu has the 3rd best theory, 5th or 6th best results (Smashboards doesn't count since all tournaments, even random ones no one knows about, is considered even than tournaments like EVO, and 1st is just as important as top 16 unless you set it top 8 or win), and 3rd best Matchups (Most likely, I don't know everything matchups obvisualy. But he seems to be the 3rd best there).

His theory isn't terrible but it's not 3rd best LOL. sonic, sheik, rosa, zss, ryu, fox, diddy all probably have better theory than him...
your 'summary' of why his theory is good is extremely vague and unhelpful.
He doesn't have amazing aerials, they are overally pretty okay. they all have high landing lag (super high on dair/nair) and little to no disjoint (and very very very little range).
His dash attack is TERRIBLE. go watch an esam match and see how many times he uses dash attack lol. probably once a few times off of fthrow (and even then he often misses)
he has great combos but not the best; sheik/zss/ryu/mk/probably more all do it better. pika's dps is pathetic
he has good specials. cool. so what?
kill power is not the only thing he's missing. i put out a list before but i can list it again:
- kill power
- range/disjoint
- aerial mobility
- good air to air spacing
- good landing aerials

also all those results are by esam. my point with the results is that ESAM IS THE ONLY ONE USING HIM. He used brawl pikachu (who happened to only be borderline top 10) and got the same results he does now! He got the same results with barely-top-ten pikachu as he does with this supposed "top 3 because ESAM" pikachu. YOU NEED MORE THAN ONE PLAYER TO PLAY YOU OR ELSE IT'S OBVIOUSLY THE PLAYER THAT'S GODLIKE, NOT THE CHARACTER.
alright sorry i got a little mad there

also his mu spread definitely isnt 3rd best.

Pikachu deserves to be in this tier. He has great frame data, great edguadring, spacing if needed. Only thing i'd see as a problem is kill power but theres sheik. ^Wintermelon showed results.

- great frame data
ehh. its good but there're at least ~5 (sheik, zss, fox, ryu, mario) characters with better
- great edgeguarding
sure? i think his edgeguarding is overrated but even if it isnt, it's like whatever since edgeguarding as a whole isnt that strong in this game and you aren't going to be edgeguarding sheik/zss/sonic no matter who you are
- spacing if needed
bad aerial mobility, bad landing lag, little to no disjoint on everything but smashes = not that great spacing

I'm still confused on why people downvote Pika. Results? He has plenty of those, flaws very similar to sheiks and AMAZING PROS. Pika has good theory and good results. If there was only 1 sheik player, she would still be 1st.

he doesn't have flaws similar to sheik's... like, at all
he does not have plenty of results unless you're only counting esam WHO COULD DO THE SAME THING HE DOES NOW WITH BRAWL PIKACHU

 

[Onyxical]

+
+
Countervotes
This tier is boring

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Last round Yoshi, this time Pikachu

 

[Onyxical]

ESAM saw this thread and went Yoshi trying to prove something

But ending up getting bodied anyways

 

[TMNTSSB4]

ESAM saw this thread and went Yoshi trying to prove something

But ending up getting bodied anyways

I want this to be true

 

[Onyxical]

I want this to be true

He actually did go Yoshi in doubles at Tipped Off but ZeRo went Sheik and just bodied him and MVD

 

[TMNTSSB4]

He actually did go Yoshi in doubles at Tipped Off but ZeRo went Sheik and just bodied him and MVD

Where can I find this on youtube? As in the channel and stuff like that.

 

[aεrgiα]

im not discrediting regionals, i think theyre pretty important. but most of those tournaments are little tiny local with literally nobody notable. there are only 2 top 100 players that use pikachu, and then the next best one is like 3rd on the pr of some weak region.
and your hypothetical situation doesnt really work, since because meta knight is the best, people used him. pikachu is not the best so less people use him.


His theory isn't terrible but it's not 3rd best LOL. sonic, sheik, rosa, zss, ryu, fox, diddy all probably have better theory than him...
your 'summary' of why his theory is good is extremely vague and unhelpful.
He doesn't have amazing aerials, they are overally pretty okay. they all have high landing lag (super high on dair/nair) and little to no disjoint (and very very very little range).
His dash attack is TERRIBLE. go watch an esam match and see how many times he uses dash attack lol. probably once a few times off of fthrow (and even then he often misses)
he has great combos but not the best; sheik/zss/ryu/mk/probably more all do it better. pika's dps is pathetic
he has good specials. cool. so what?
kill power is not the only thing he's missing. i put out a list before but i can list it again:
- kill power
- range/disjoint
- aerial mobility
- good air to air spacing
- good landing aerials

also all those results are by esam. my point with the results is that ESAM IS THE ONLY ONE USING HIM. He used brawl pikachu (who happened to only be borderline top 10) and got the same results he does now! He got the same results with barely-top-ten pikachu as he does with this supposed "top 3 because ESAM" pikachu. YOU NEED MORE THAN ONE PLAYER TO PLAY YOU OR ELSE IT'S OBVIOUSLY THE PLAYER THAT'S GODLIKE, NOT THE CHARACTER.
alright sorry i got a little mad there

also his mu spread definitely isnt 3rd best.


- great frame data
ehh. its good but there're at least ~5 (sheik, zss, fox, ryu, mario) characters with better
- great edgeguarding
sure? i think his edgeguarding is overrated but even if it isnt, it's like whatever since edgeguarding as a whole isnt that strong in this game and you aren't going to be edgeguarding sheik/zss/sonic no matter who you are
- spacing if needed
bad aerial mobility, bad landing lag, little to no disjoint on everything but smashes = not that great spacing


he doesn't have flaws similar to sheik's... like, at all
he does not have plenty of results unless you're only counting esam WHO COULD DO THE SAME THING HE DOES NOW WITH BRAWL PIKACHU

yes it does work, i dont see whats difficult to understand about my hypothetical situation ? but heres a different, actual, example: jiggs in melee, at the start no one used jiggs(successfully at least), nothing about the character changed, but look at how good the character actually is. talking about melee, IC are another example, just because they didnt have results at the start, does not(and did not) make them bad chars... incase my hypothetical mk situation was too difficult to comprehend(dont see why it would be but according to ur post it was, well meh...)

-pika doesnt have kill confirms yes, but no kill power? really? how? hes got a great usmash, thunder shenanigans, and fsmash... its not the greatest but it defenitiley isnt bad...
-range is defjnitely one of his problems... but i dont see how it matters that much tbh :/ not when he can force approaches with tj and approach with fair and qa...
-i wont argue about his air mobility, just dont forget qa, as for his air to air spacing... what do u mean with this? air to air game? if so fair, tj, nair and uair are all pretty nice moves if u ask me... if not, please tell me what air to air spacing is supposed to be?

-well if its about approaching aerials, afaik fair dair and uair all have their uses and are pretty safe... if u mean as landing options, sure he doesnt have great aerials for that, but who needs those when u can just qa?

-frame data, well his frame data is very good, i wish my chars had top 6 frame data, but hey thats a different matter

-if theres a char thats gonna edgeguard those chars its pika, having a good edgeguard game is very important i dont see how u can claim otherwise? chars having such good recovery options makes being able to stop them even more important, now if they dont get knocked out of the blastzones most chars are coming back, so being able to stop that is amazing...
-his spacing game definitely isnt the greatest, no but he does have tj, and fair, ac dair, qa and cross up uair(i think? i heard someone say this but idk:/ )shouldnt be underestimated.

i think the biggest and only real problem pika faces is killing, thats litterally the one thing he struggles with... :/

 

[aεrgiα]

Where can I find this on youtube? As in the channel and stuff like that.

it happened earlier in tournament(which is still ongoing) streamed on smashstudios on twitch, look at past broadcasts and look for it there, i doubt its already uploaded to youtube, also, his yoshi did work out for him at first(before zero went sheik)

sorry for double post

 

[Bowserboy3]

This is really off topic, but I picked up Falco these past few days. I must say, after exploring the character and learning his combos and abilities, I think he has the potential to be higher than he is on this list as of now.

Speaking of characters being higher, how will this wildcard thing work next time? I really want to see both Marth and Samus at least up into their next tier.

 

[Zerp]

This is really off topic, but I picked up Falco these past few days. I must say, after exploring the character and learning his combos and abilities, I think he has the potential to be higher than he is on this list as of now.

Speaking of characters being higher, how will this wildcard thing work next time? I really want to see both Marth and Samus at least up into their next tier.

If memory is serving me right, I think everyone got to choose one character they'd like to see move, + or -, and the character with the most votes moved, not sure if that's exactly how it was but that's what I remember so I'm guessing it'd be somewhat similar to that.

 

[MarioMeteor]

No votes for me this round. I would countervote for Pikachu, but I think it might be getting close to being more upvotes than downvotes at this point. I haven't counted, but it seems close.

Side-note: Pikachu is blonde because he has fur, where as a Yellow Yoshi is not due to the lack of fur. In my mind at least, blonde generally refers hair color.

Oh, so now Loshi's are at fault because they don't have fur. Is there anything else you want to pick on them about? Like their noses?

This is really off topic, but I picked up Falco these past few days. I must say, after exploring the character and learning his combos and abilities, I think he has the potential to be higher than he is on this list as of now.

Speaking of characters being higher, how will this wildcard thing work next time? I really want to see both Marth and Samus at least up into their next tier.

Falco could be a great character if it didn't take him a lightyear to kill somebody.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

it happened earlier in tournament(which is still ongoing) streamed on smashstudios on twitch, look at past broadcasts and look for it there, i doubt its already uploaded to youtube, also, his yoshi did work out for him at first(before zero went sheik)

sorry for double post

Thanks, hope it's funny

 

[Xandercosm]

Oh, so now Loshi's are at fault because they don't have fur. Is there anything else you want to pick on them about? Like their noses?

I think the next US president should be a Loshi.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Oh, so now Loshi's are at fault because they don't have fur. Is there anything else you want to pick on them about? Like their noses?

Falco could be a great character if it didn't take him a lightyear to kill somebody.

They can't be blonde because they can use their nose for bowling

 

[Zorthax]

- 1
- 1

 

[MarioMeteor]

They can't be blonde because they can use their nose for bowling

Yoshist.

I think the next US president should be a Loshi.

Agreed.

 

[TDK]

Oh, so now Loshi's are at fault because they don't have fur. Is there anything else you want to pick on them about? Like their noses?

Well, Yoshi DOES have a randomly awkward hurtbox on his nose...

 

[Doctor Luigi]

No tier changes

 

[Dagon97]

-1
-1

 

[Dcas]

This is really off topic, but I picked up Falco these past few days. I must say, after exploring the character and learning his combos and abilities, I think he has the potential to be higher than he is on this list as of now.

Speaking of characters being higher, how will this wildcard thing work next time? I really want to see both Marth and Samus at least up into their next tier.

I wish tierl ists never were based from statements as these above. You can see HUGE potential in Jiggli, doesnt matter unless you prove it with results and solid facts. Hence tier list should be only 3 tiers, not viable , viable and top tier.

Still, is your opinion and obviously you are allowed to state it.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I wish tierl ists never were based from statements as these above. You can see HUGE potential in Jiggli, doesnt matter unless you prove it with results and solid facts. Hence tier list should be only 3 tiers, not viable , viable and top tier.

Still, is your opinion and obviously you are allowed to state it.

3 tiers would be weird looking

 

[Routa]

I wish tierl ists never were based from statements as these above. You can see HUGE potential in Jiggli, doesnt matter unless you prove it with results and solid facts. Hence tier list should be only 3 tiers, not viable , viable and top tier.

Still, is your opinion and obviously you are allowed to state it.

Jigglypuff is pretty much Wario without the good things that make Wario so good (dem specials).

Anyways I think "unviable" might not be the best name for last tier within 3 tier system. I would say "underwhelming" would describe the tier better.

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

I've considered it a bit, and I think this is how I'd personally define the tiers of a tier list for this game, at least if I went for a minimal amount of tiers.

Spoiler

Tier 1: Characters can win tournaments of any level as a solo main.

Tier 2: Characters can win national tournaments as a secondary main, regional tournaments as a solo main, and local tournaments as a solo main.

Tier 3: Characters cannot win national tournaments at any capacity, but can win regional tournaments as a secondary main, and local tournaments as a solo main.

Tier 4: Characters cannot win national tournaments at any capacity, and cannot win regional tournaments at any capacity, but can win local tournaments as a secondary main.

Tier 5: Characters cannot win tournaments of any level at any capacity.

(Note: It's assumed that characters that can win tournaments of X type as a solo main can also win tournaments of X type as a secondary main as well.)

Personally I would ideally want a tier list for this game to have around 7 tiers since I think 50+ characters fitting into 5 tiers might not differentiate their capabilities enough, but this is just my own idea for it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Falco could be a great character if it didn't take him a lightyear to kill somebody.

Meh, well I still don't know insanely much about the character yet, only been exploring him for a week or so, but from what I know, Bair is quick and kills really early. Fsmash of course is very powerful, and Dtilt works as a quick close range kill at a bit higher percents. Actually, Up Throw Up Air cannot be DI'd out of at about 90/100%, and on certain characters depending on weight and rage, it can kill. This only works thanks to his high jumps. I just really like Falco's combo game. Still don't think he's super viable, and of course he is virtually unknown in tournament land, but I still think he could be bumped up a couple of spaces.

I still want to see Marth and Samus moving up a bit more though...