Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Vapo]

+1 Counter vote, while Pikachu is the worst out of the top tiers he is still top tier. I don't believe anybody in this tier deserves to go down, as all of them are pretty clearly better than the Tier 2 kids (+Ryu and Fox who aren't classified as kids lol). Pikachu's Quick Attack is great recovery and extremely difficult to gimp, Pikachu has no trouble racking up damage and little trouble killing, unlike Sheik. While ESAM is kind of the only really well known Pikachu, the only ZSS I can recall from the top of my head is Nairo and people aren't voting ZSS down as much as Pikachu.

Also, Pikachu is blonde. Instant S-Tier (unless your name is Peach, Shulk, Lucas or Toon Link).

 

[Routa]

Fair enough.

Sheik for example is in Tier 1 thanks to her moves being extremely safe, fast and able to combo. ZSS is in Tier 1 thanks to her amazing advantage state, amazing combo game and raw kill power. Rosa in my eyes is between tiers 1 and 2. She has extremely good advantage state, raw kill power and Luma bs. But why between tiers 1 and 2 ? Not as good disadvantage state and she is very light.

Anyways back to Pikachu. I would compare him to Mario when it comes to frame data and theory. Both have amazing frame data, good approach tools (Mario does have better approach kit overall due to his extremely safe and powerful Bair), combo game (Mario does have more variation within his combos and he does have KO combos)...

I would like to put a disclaimer here... By no means I think Pikachu is bad, but he isn't tier 1 good.

Anyways there are characters that do some things just better than Pikachu. For example Mario has superior combo game, safety and has easier time killing. And Mario is usually considered not to be in top 5. What Pikachu has over other top 5 is edgeguarding game, which is still worse than Swordfighter's. But seriously Pikachu is a good character. The thing is that there are characters that out do him in the areas where things matter.

 

[TDK]

No votes up or down for now.

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

- Lol, someone pls tell me why this character was ever top tier to begin with.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

No up or down votes

 

[TDK]

No votes up or down for now.

Okay, I'm going to use one of my votes.

+1 Counter-vote, all of these characters deserve to stay here.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

+1 An improved Ice Climbers. Luma is actually more powerful than Rosa with certain moves, and Luma respawns, making Rosalina not at a big disadvantage on her own. This is mostly a countervote because I'm predicting that many people will vote her down, but she is definitely top tier.
-1 Relies mostly on grab combos, and even so, up B can only be comboed into at lower percentages. Only with down B or combos from high platforms does she reliably kill.

Improved? Ice Climbers in Brawl had amazing desyncs and an infinite chaingrab, also being a tier above the rest of the top tiers (but below MK by a tier) and you're saying Rosa is a better Ice Climbers? Please stop with this non-sense.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Improved? Ice Climbers in Brawl had amazing desyncs and an infinite chaingrab, also being a tier above the rest of the top tiers (but below MK by a tier) and you're saying Rosa is a better Ice Climbers? Please stop with this non-sense.

And here comes the flame war where everyone disagrees with what I say for some reason...

Alright, maybe she isn't better than Icies, but the sheer fact that Luma respawns and Rosalina isn't garbage without it is enough to say that she is on par with them, and deserves a place in the top tier, because she has a better disadvantage state than them, albeit a slightly worse advantage state.

 

[Nessimator]

I think people are forgetting that we're not supposed to countervote. Remember...during this phase characters could and still only move up or down 1 tier at a time, so there's no reason for this anymore.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I think people are forgetting that we're not supposed to countervote. Remember...during this phase characters could and still only move up or down 1 tier at a time, so there's no reason for this anymore.

Keeping in mind that we are now ordering within tiers, there's still all the reason to countervote if you want a character to stay in the tier.

 

[Nessimator]

At this rate I wouldn't be surprised if countervotes put Pikachu above Sheik.

 

[Nessimator]

Keeping in mind that we are now ordering within tiers, there's still all the reason to countervote if you want a character to stay in the tier.

But think about how catastrophic too many could be.
I want Pika to stay in top tier, but I certainly do not want him above Sheik!

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

And here comes the flame war where everyone disagrees with what I say for some reason...

Alright, maybe she isn't better than Icies, but the sheer fact that Luma respawns and Rosalina isn't garbage without it is enough to say that she is on par with them, and deserves a place in the top tier, because she has a better disadvantage state than them, albeit a slightly worse advantage state.

Well deserved flame. Nana lived a lot longer, and when she was around did a lot more to make ICs good. Rosa isn't on par with a character with amazing desync combos and an infinite chaingrab.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

But think about how catastrophic too many could be.
I want Pika to stay in top tier, but I certainly do not want him above Sheik!

That's why it's a countervote, to counteract the downvotes: not trying to move them up, but keeping them from moving down.

 

[Nessimator]

That's why it's a countervote, to counteract the downvotes: not trying to move them up, but keeping them from moving down.

but we can never truly know how much is too much, so countervoting is dangerous.

 

[Deleted member]

-

 

[Equin0x]

-1
-1
I'm not the kind of person to call someone top tier over 1 person playing them (ESAM and Nairo, with an occasional Officer Jenny...ovassionally)

1. Even if one person succeeds with a character, that's STILL proof that the character has the ability to succeed. Just HAVING the ability to compete with Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Ryu, etc, and destroy ZSS at the HIGHEST of levels should be plenty of evidence for keeping in the highest tier.
2. Even ignoring results, Pikachu has the theory of a top tier. His neutral isn't as good as Sheik's (Is anyone's?), but it's still fantastic. He can force approaches with Thunderjolt, travel anywhere he pleases AND start comboes with the same move, poke with aerials that autocancel out of SH (or land with the shortest hurtbox in the game), combo on a level that can only be compared to Sheik, ZSS, Mario, etc, gimp with the best of the cast (Sheik, Rosalina, MK, etc), and kill without too much trouble.
3. If the only high-level ZSS you can think of Officer Jenny, you obviously haven't done your homework.

but we can never truly know how much is too much, so countervoting is dangerous.

We can always just count the votes towards the end of the round.

[EDIT] 1:
[EDIT 2] +
+
Both countervotes

 

[Nessimator]

1. Even if one person succeeds with a character, that's STILL proof that the character has the ability to succeed. Just HAVING the ability to compete with Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Ryu, etc, and destroy ZSS at the HIGHEST of levels should be plenty of evidence for keeping in the highest tier.
2. Even ignoring results, Pikachu has the theory of a top tier. His neutral isn't as good as Sheik's (Is anyone's?), but it's still fantastic. He can force approaches with Thunderjolt, travel anywhere he pleases AND start comboes with the same move, poke with aerials that autocancel out of SH (or land with the shortest hurtbox in the game), combo on a level that can only be compared to Sheik, ZSS, Mario, etc, gimp with the best of the cast (Sheik, Rosalina, MK, etc), and kill without too much trouble.
3. If the only high-level ZSS you can think of Officer Jenny, you obviously haven't done your homework.


We can always just count the votes towards the end of the round.

[EDIT] 1:

Well then if that's the case then many people are countervoting way too early. Based on what you said, people should wait, but they aren't, so it's still kind of a threat.

 

[phire_]

+ (I may be exaggerating, but she should be placed in her own tier cuz of how good she is)

 

[TDK]

- Lol, someone pls tell me why this character was ever top tier to begin with.

I don't think you understand what a practiced Rosalina can do. On top of an amazing defensive game and near immunity to projectiles if played right, you've got an up air that kills off the top at 80-90%, a neutral air with hitboxes pretty much everywhere, and Luma, which can extend combos, gimp, kill, shield her from projectiles, and go and fight on the other side of the stage while she stays safe.

 

[Apeirohaon]

- 1
+ 1 (counter vote, just in case)

Guys. Pikachu is not that good.
Obviously in the results department, he sucks. like barely top 8 at best. so let's move on to his theory...

That's funny, I haven't really heard any "reasons" for downvoting him either, other than "m-m-muh results!!!" Anyway, I can't really think of any bad moves Pika has (not counting customs), other than... D-smash, maybe? I guess you could say he has some trouble ending the stock, but hey, look at Sheik. Besides, it's not like Pika has any trouble tacking on damage anyway. I can't really see how a character with such a viable kit all around can be considered not S-tier. As if that's not enough, the shield changes pretty much cemented him in top tier.
I, for one, would like to know where all this overnight Pika hate came from...

It doesn't really matter if you don't have any "bad moves". that's pretty irrelevant.
He has much more trouble ending a stuck than Sheik. Sheik doesn't even have much trouble killing, she has completely safe 50/50s from down throw + bouncing fish off stage lol.

He doesn't have any notably disjointed aerials or tilts. He has bad range. His air mobility is poor, so he can't space air to air very well (especially with that range). He has trouble killing. He has pretty bad landing lag, so he can't space air to ground very well.
You can say QA is hard to gimp, but so are like 40% of the recoveries in this game.

Nairo isn't even close to the only ZSS, unlike Pikachu. Choco is top 5 (well actually #3) in Japan; Nick Riddle is top 5 in Florida and probably top 40 US. She has tons of regional rep (dakpo, v115, bengal, others i'm forgetting)

1. Even if one person succeeds with a character, that's STILL proof that the character has the ability to succeed. Just HAVING the ability to compete with Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Ryu, etc, and destroy ZSS at the HIGHEST of levels should be plenty of evidence for keeping in the highest tier.

By this logic Diddy is top 3 - Zero has beaten the top Sheiks and the top ZSS with him. Do you think Diddy is top 5, even? I didn't think so.
I think that any top 10 character could take a tournament.

Additionally, even if you're basing it all off ESAM, he's gone very close with/lost to people he 'should' be beating. Went to game 5 with Nick Riddle's ZSS, lost to SlayerZ's Peach, lost to Dabuz's Rosa, etc.

alternatively, read this, this, and this


also

little trouble killing, unlike Sheik

did you just say pika can kill easier than sheik??

 

[Freakykid99]

EDIT: +1
+1
Just to be safe.
Just a question: If we countervote a character too much in this tier, there's still no chance that character will move to a higher tier, right? Even if pikachu got, say, +100 votes, would he still only be placed where people ranked him within the tier (which looks like 3rd or 4th)?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

1. Even if one person succeeds with a character, that's STILL proof that the character has the ability to succeed. Just HAVING the ability to compete with Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Ryu, etc, and destroy ZSS at the HIGHEST of levels should be plenty of evidence for keeping in the highest tier.
2. Even ignoring results, Pikachu has the theory of a top tier. His neutral isn't as good as Sheik's (Is anyone's?), but it's still fantastic. He can force approaches with Thunderjolt, travel anywhere he pleases AND start comboes with the same move, poke with aerials that autocancel out of SH (or land with the shortest hurtbox in the game), combo on a level that can only be compared to Sheik, ZSS, Mario, etc, gimp with the best of the cast (Sheik, Rosalina, MK, etc), and kill without too much trouble.
3. If the only high-level ZSS you can think of Officer Jenny, you obviously haven't done your homework.


We can always just count the votes towards the end of the round.

[EDIT] 1:
[EDIT 2] +
+
Both countervotes

1. You do know that can pretty much be said about a majority of the cast right?
2. If you're trying to impress me with Pikachu's stuff, it's not working, and it's called an opinion.
3. Where did my comment say Officer Jenny was the only high level ZSS player? Answer is nowhere btw, read to the fullest.
4. Still gonna leave my votes how they are

 

[Equin0x]

1. You do know that can pretty much be said about a majority of the cast right?
2. If you're trying to impress me with Pikachu's stuff, it's not working, and it's called an opinion.
3. Where did my comment say Officer Jenny was the only high level ZSS player? Answer is nowhere btw, read to the fullest.
4. Still gonna leave my votes how they are

1. Yeah, everybody except for anybody that doesn't play Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, Rosalina, Diddy, Mario, Sonic, Ness, Fox, Meta Knight, Captain Falcon, or Villager. Those are the characters mained by players that are commonly seen in top 8s at majors (with the occasional PAC from Abadango), but none of them place as high as regularly as ZeRo's Sheik/Diddy, Nairo's ZSS, ESAM's Pikachu, or Dabuz' Rosalina.
[EDIT: Forgot Ryu]
2. I understand it's called an opinion. I'm giving my reasons for disagreeing, and it wasn't directed at you directly, but everyone who made a similar point to yours.
3.

I'm not the kind of person to call someone top tier over 1 person playing them (ESAM and Nairo, with an occasional Officer Jenny...ovassionally)

"over 1 person playing them" implies that they are the only players of those characters that you acknowledge.
"with an occasional Officer Jenny" implies that Officer Jenny is the only other player one that you do acknowledge, which shouldn't be true with Nick Riddle and V115's results. Hell, even if you're going off of Xanadu, vABengal regularly outplaces her.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

1. Yeah, everybody except for anybody that doesn't play Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, Rosalina, Diddy, Mario, Sonic, Ness, Fox, Meta Knight, Captain Falcon, or Villager. Those are the characters mained by players that are commonly seen in top 8s at majors (with the occasional PAC from Abadango), but none of them place as high as regularly as ZeRo's Sheik/Diddy, Nairo's ZSS, ESAM's Pikachu, or Dabuz' Rosalina.
2. I undertsnad it's called an opinion. I'm giving my reasons for disagreeing, and it wasn't directed at you directly, but everyone who made a similar point to yours.
3.


"over 1 person playing them" implies that they are the only players of those characters that you acknowledge.
"with an occasional Officer Jenny" implies that Officer Jenny is the only other player one that you do acknowledge, which shouldn't be true with Nick Riddle and V115's results. Hell, even if you're going off of Xanadu, vABengal regularly outplaces her.

1. Ryu has been placing just as much as those characters(even though he might not count), same as Mario and Sonic(if used by Ally, Anti, or 6WX)
2. It seemed like you were talking about just me(I already have to deal with that with WWE fans, I don't need anymore with Smash)
3. I menat 1 as in just Nairo and ESAM, Officer Jenny was just another name that's used because she's not as big as those two are, same with vABengal.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

1. Ryu has been placing just as much as those characters(even though he might not count), same as Mario and Sonic(if used by Ally, Anti, or 6WX)
2. It seemed like you were talking about just me(I already have to deal with that with WWE fans, I don't need anymore with Smash)
3. I menat 1 as in just Nairo and ESAM, Officer Jenny was just another name that's used because she's not as big as those two are, same with vABengal.

Officer Jenny isn't a big Zero Suit Samus player. One of my online friends went 3rd game last stock with her aand this online friend aint even good. Bad example, but shes not good enough to be considered a top ZSS.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Officer Jenny isn't a big Zero Suit Samus player. One of my online friends went 3rd game last stock with her aand this online friend aint even good. Bad example, but shes not good enough to be considered a top ZSS.

That's the point, she's not as big as them, but still good enough to be noticable by some people.

 

[aεrgiα]

well before we get into the fun stuff lets get my vote out of the way;
,, ,
countervote +1
keeping my second countervote for later(if needed).

lets get some simple things out of the way first:

Well then if that's the case then many people are countervoting way too early. Based on what you said, people should wait, but they aren't, so it's still kind of a threat.

please, just look at the votes... look at them!!! theres already around 10/15 pika downvotes, sure i can wait until there are 40 pika downvotes...or i can vote now, doesnt really matter much does it? i can already see a clear trend, and if the table flips later on? well if that happens then i can REMOVE my pika countervote again...

1. You do know that can pretty much be said about a majority of the cast right?
2. If you're trying to impress me with Pikachu's stuff, it's not working, and it's called an opinion.
3. Where did my comment say Officer Jenny was the only high level ZSS player? Answer is nowhere btw, read to the fullest.
4. Still gonna leave my votes how they are

1) wow so ur saying my d3 can compete with sheik, sonic and ryu... and destroty zss!?!?! o.O please tell me what im missing!!!

u cant just claim that most of the cast can compete with the top tiers... theyre TOP TIERS for a reason :/

2) well just this single statement made ur whole post lose credibility in my books... having an opinion is fine, using it as an argument is not!

3) u didnt straight out say it no, u only implied it very strongly('nairo with an occasional officer jenny... ocassionally')<- if that isnt implying that theres only nairo and officer jenny i dont know what is :/

4)well thats fine, ur votes, ur opinion, no one told u to change ur vote... there was an attempt at arguing your points but nothing more...

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

No changes for the top tier.

Lol at Mario's placement.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

well before we get into the fun stuff lets get my vote out of the way;
,, ,
countervote +1
keeping my second countervote for later(if needed).

lets get some simple things out of the way first:
please, just look at the votes... look at them!!! theres already around 10/15 pika downvotes, sure i can wait until there are 40 pika downvotes...or i can vote now, doesnt really matter much does it? i can already see a clear trend, and if the table flips later on? well if that happens then i can REMOVE my pika countervote again...



1) wow so ur saying my d3 can compete with sheik, sonic and ryu... and destroty zss!?!?! o.O please tell me what im missing!!!

u cant just claim that most of the cast can compete with the top tiers... theyre TOP TIERS for a reason :/

2) well just this single statement made ur whole post lose credibility in my books... having an opinion is fine, using it as an argument is not!

3) u didnt straight out say it no, u only implied it very strongly('nairo with an occasional officer jenny... ocassionally')<- if that isnt implying that theres only nairo and officer jenny i dont know what is :/

4)well thats fine, ur votes, ur opinion, no one told u to change ur vote... there was an attempt at arguing your points but nothing more...

1. A majority doesn't mean all, but I've seen a D3 go up against a good Shiek(not sure if they won, but they still used whatever he is), so you're missing something.
2. People use opinions all the time, and it works out for alot of them(especially in business), and my opinion wasn't much of an argument, more of a...comment
3. I already explained it a comment ago
4. Thank You(I think)

 

[aεrgiα]

1. A majority doesn't mean all, but I've seen a D3 go up against a good Shiek(not sure if they won, but they still used whatever he is), so you're missing something.
2. People use opinions all the time, and it works out for alot of them(especially in business), and my opinion wasn't much of an argument, more of a...comment
3. I already explained it a comment ago
4. Thank You(I think)

1) no it doesnt mean all, but to me a majority is more than half, so around 28 characters(?), id say that statement is true for maybe top15(optimistically) or top10(realistically/pessimistically-> whatever category i fall into). and sheik is one of d3s better match up among the top tiers... doesnt change the fact that its not close to even, sure u can compete... by outplaying ur opponent, but thats true for every character and if ur gonna use: its the player(esam) and not the character(pika) in an argument against pika, u cant suddenly use the exact same argument to support the rest of the cast...

2) people do use opinions to argue all the time, true, but that doesnt really make it any better of an argument and it sure isnt going to convince anyone. usually ur meant to use arguments to back up ur opinion...
and that you used ur opinion to argue against his points, thats an argument imo :/

3) well making a mistake in wording is fine and all, but making a smartass/condescending(thats what "Where did my comment say Officer Jenny was the only high level ZSS player? Answer is nowhere btw, read to the fullest.") comes across as to me) comment about someone who takes u up on it is not!

4)yeah, there was nothing negative in that statement, u have ur opinion, ur entitled to it and thats a good thing! (i dont claim to have the only valid opinion(because i dont) i do like to argue about differences in opinion though, who knows, maybe ill learn something )

 

[Wintermelon43]

Who's Officer Jenny?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

1) no it doesnt mean all, but to me a majority is more than half, so around 28 characters(?), id say that statement is true for maybe top15(optimistically) or top10(realistically/pessimistically-> whatever category i fall into). and sheik is one of d3s better match up among the top tiers... doesnt change the fact that its not close to even, sure u can compete... by outplaying ur opponent, but thats true for every character and if ur gonna use: its the player(esam) and not the character(pika) in an argument against pika, u cant suddenly use the exact same argument to support the rest of the cast...

2) people do use opinions to argue all the time, true, but that doesnt really make it any better of an argument and it sure isnt going to convince anyone. usually ur meant to use arguments to back up ur opinion...
and that you used ur opinion to argue against his points, thats an argument imo :/

3) well making a mistake in wording is fine and all, but making a smartass/condescending(thats what "Where did my comment say Officer Jenny was the only high level ZSS player? Answer is nowhere btw, read to the fullest.") comes across as to me) comment about someone who takes u up on it is not!

4)yeah, there was nothing negative in that statement, u have ur opinion, ur entitled to it and thats a good thing! (i dont claim to have the only valid opinion(because i dont) i do like to argue about differences in opinion though, who knows, maybe ill learn something )

1. On a daily basis no, in the right hands yeah
2. Then they have pure luck(mostly in sports that is)
3. That comment waseat to sound like a smartass, the other not so much
4. The internet=argument city

 

[Equin0x]

Who's Officer Jenny?

Exactly.

(She's a ZSS that appears at Xanadus occasionally and gets bopped.)

TMNTSSB4 forgot Ryu my b

 

[Deleted member]

-1

 

[TDK]

Exactly.

(She's a ZSS that appears at Xanadus occasionally and gets bopped.)

TMNTSSB4 forgot Ryu my b

I haven't actually seen a match where she loses the set.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I haven't actually seen a match where she loses the set.

There's some

 

[Stick Dude]

1:

+1

 

[TDK]

The only ZSS players I can name off the top of my head are Nairo, VaBengal, and Officer Jenny.
The only Pikachu player I can name off the top of my head is ESAM.

 

[TDK]

Also, Pikachu is blonde. Instant S-Tier (unless your name is Peach, Shulk, Lucas or Toon Link).

Peach'll get there eventually.