Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Wintermelon43]

+
-
- jesus christ this character is garbage how are you people so blind

jesus christ this character is lower-mid how are you people so blind

 

[TMNTSSB4]

jesus christ this character is lower-mid how are you people so blind

This character is a pokémon how are you people so blind to not give Mewtwo attention instead?

Show him some respect to

 

[CleanOgre]

jesus christ this character is lower-mid how are you people so blind

Using this button makes fighting Jigglypuff a lot easier.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Using this button makes fighting Jigglypuff a lot easier.

What if you don't have that button?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

What if you don't have that button?

Then use the button you have mapped to shield.

 

[Rinku リンク]

higher tier than .
Didn't realize this was the melee tier list.

 

[dashgg]

-1 Luigi
+1 Diddy

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

What if you don't have that button?

Then get off ur booty and buy a real controller m9

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Then get off ur booty and buy a real controller m9

Who says it's my controller I'm using?

 

[Zionaze]

Such unnecessary bickering

 

[Browny]

2nd time TMNTSSB4 .

This is your second warning. If you arent making votes or discussing character placements (and not attacking other peoples votes) dont post. I will ignore all of your votes in the future if you dont stop posting off-topic comments and derailing the thread.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Last time I checked Browny

Using this button makes fighting Jigglypuff a lot easier.

Then use the button you have mapped to shield.

Then get off ur booty and buy a real controller m9

all relates to Jigglypuff, so...

 

[Browny]

Yeah and your three posts in a row on the matter were all pointless.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Yeah and your three posts in a row on the matter were all pointless.

Yet all of those 7 pointless comments still talked about Jiggs either way...even if it's just rolling...


Anyways, I'm done. This'll go on for 50 years in the end no matter what.

 

[Routa]

Well what can Roy do better than Marth?

Approaching? Roy's only somewhat safe approach tool is shorthop Nair. Sadly Marth's Nair is also good approach tool due to tipper bonus. Also Fair is pretty safeish.

Killing? Roy's Fsmash is laggy and has a sweetspot at a very bad place (being the hilt) and add to that how laggy the move is... Marth's Fsmash has sweetspot at the tip which makes it a bit easier to kill with. Also add to that how much faster the move is overall.

Throw game? Both lack good combo game so 50:50.

Edgeguarding? Due to Marth's better Up-b (recovery wise) he is to able to go off-stage and recover back safely. Also adf to that Marth is one of the few characters (along with Shulk) that are able to edgeguard Wario.

Overall Marth has more things going for himself than Roy. There was a lot talking about this some time ago on http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-ratings-v2-competitive-impressions.410551/page-248 and conclusion was that Marth is more viable than Roy. Only places where I see people saying that Roy is better are Reddit and Eventhubs (yeah...).

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Throw game? Both lack good combo game so 50:50.

When I read this I immediately discredited your opinion.

But seriously wtf? Have you even played Roy? D-throw combos into jab-f-tilt, u-tilt, and u-air. F-throw can combo into a chain of n-alrs. His f-air chains into itself. Roy has a good combo game, and when you said his is comparable to Marth's, I couldn't read your post anymore. Sorry.

 

[Routa]

Combo throw =/= good combo game. Even Wario has a combo throw, but that doesn't mean he has a good combo game. Roy has combos (or rather strings), but that doesn't mean he has good combo game. He has as "good" combo game as Marth when you compare them to real combo character like Mario. Roy has good punish game tho, but so has Marth (maybe overall better tho).

And yes I have played as Roy and I have been playing against relatively good Roy player. He personally prefers Roy over Marth due to speed, but even he thinks that Marth is overall a bit better. Atm both Roy and Marth lack results, but when it comes to theorycraft and MU spread... Well Roy only beats Marth framedata wise.

Also ignoring someone's argument argument because you disagree is just plain rude. I am willing to change my opinion about Roy if you can prove my points wrong about Roy.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Having strings is definitely better than having almost no combos like Marth. His combo throw makes him have a better combo game than Marth, and he can string more moves together.

Roy has a worse recovery but he is harder to edge-guard because of hitboxes, so yeah.

Tipper doesn't make Marth immediately better, but Roy's f-smash hilt is an insane kill move (which is just as laggy as Marth's btw).

Marth has a better neitral no doubt, but that's not the only thing that matters. Roy has a better advantage state, he has better kill moves, and he is more feared at higher percents.

I can't see a reason why Marth would be placed above Roy (and yes, I have always had this opinion, ZeRo didn't change it)

 

[Wintermelon43]

Roy is better than Marth, end of dicussion.

 

[Rinku リンク]

Well what can Roy do better than Marth?.

I play both characters so let me share my insight on them.

The main thing Roy has over Marth is that he can take the initiative and play aggressively more effectively than Marth. Yes he has a tipper and better spacing tools but this is not melee or brawl, This is Smash 4.

Marth's way different now than he was then. Trying to be aggressive and be cool with ken comboz isn't a thing anymore. His play style revolves heavily on people's mistakes and taking advantage of them.

Roy on the other hand can take things into his own hands. Rather than waiting for something to happen, he can make something happen.

This doesn't only apply to this subject but to almost any other game out there. In war, those who make the first move tend to have a better chance than those who just sit and wait to see what happens.

 

[Routa]

Having a tipper does not make Marth better than Roy, but when you compare is to something like hilt, well tipper is safer due to its location from characters hurtbox. Roy's Hilt Fsmash is far harder to land than Marth's tippered Fsmash (Roy has to be very close to his foe which makes it rather unsafe option). Oh and Marth's Fsmash comes on frame 10-13 when Roy's comes on frame 14-15.
Roy does have better advantage state, but he also has worse disadvantage state. Roy is a fastfaller and he is heavy. You know what that means? Combo food. Just like Ike, Roy has no way to escape from being comboed. His Uair comes out on frame 5 and Nair on frame 6. Fast indeed, but the hitboxes won't interrupt the combo. Marth in the other hand can escape comboes with Up-b which comes out on frame 4-5 and has small hitbox under him which is large enough to interrupt the combo.

I hear people saying that this aint Melee or Brawl which is true. Current Roy would be better IN Melee or Brawl than current Marth, but this ain't Melee or Brawl. Characters that deal damage safely and have overall safe moves on shield are the current Meta (along with combo moves). Also what? You know why Germany lost 2nd world war? They were too hasty. They had technology and strategy to win the war, but they got impatient... And you can read the rest from history book. Even Finland won USSR in winter war. Why? Strategy and defensive play. And Finland lost the following war. Why? They were so full of themselves and attacked USSR. First to attack =/= Winner.

 

[Izayoi]

The war comparison was a little bit overboard: A good tactician is 3 steps ahead and they are sometimes the last to make a move.

The fundamentals of Marth even tell us that good defensive play can reward him. However, that isn't to say I agree that Roy is THAT bad to the point he should be a tier below Marth.

Marth's combo game is very iffy and only a few moves can combo and that is without taking DI into account. Roy has combo strings and a plethora of kill moves that can give him a potential faster victory than Marth... While still retaining some of Marth's defensive play.
Yes, his tipper-sourspots is painful to use but I'm pretty sure with the low knockback they have they actually give even more combo opportunities. Roy can still hold a good defensive game thanks to his moveset being fundamentally Marth's...and the fact he simply has a sword. Let's not even talk about Flare Blade (NB-move)'s low cooldown for spacing.**

Surely, if we compare the actual Marth vs. Roy matchup, we'd get a stalemate, as Marth can outspace Roy, who struggles to get into Marth's defensive spacing. But once he gets in...it's pain time for Marth.
But in general, against the entire roster, I firmly believe Roy has the upper hand in matchup numbers. He can actually hold out his own better than Marth.

**= Ah, yes, by the way. Roy's tippered nearly full charge Flare Blade has seemingly higher knockback than a full charge non-tippered Flare Blade... somehow. I tested this in Home-Run Contest and I got consistent results. I don't know how often this applies in battle...but if we're talking about Flare Blades facing away from the blast zone it could be better to space it with a near full charge...granted your opponent even lets you charge it that long.

 

[Routa]

You are correct indeed. I also want to remind that combos don't make a character better (look at Wario he has barely any combos). If Roy gets in he will pretty much destroy you. Yeah I said "IF". Roy's safest approach tool is Nair, which is still rather lacking at the safety part. Marth's stalling fall speed allows to pone his foes with Fair and Nair safely. Well I started to repeat myself, but it seems like people tend to forget that kinda have to have safe approach tools on shield if you want to approach.

Roy might have more favourable MUs, but as far as I know he doesn't really Counter (bad pun) anyone (or any top tier) like Marth (destroys Wario). Marth is greatish counterpick character when Roy is okish as a solo main. Also I don't think Roy is Samus bad, but he has more flaws than Marth atm. Ofc both are completely different characters and should be played differently. Also both characters lack the results atm so our "opinions" are mostly based on theorycrafting. Atm Marth has the theory advantage over Roy, but the situation might be different in the future.

Also it seems like I was watching the outdated list. Yeah so no - for Roy. Gotta edit my older vote post.

Edit: also

Roy is better than Marth, end of dicussion.

this is not how you argue with someone. This makes you look/sound like a angry fanboy who cannot handle his favourite character no being in top tier.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

You are correct indeed. I also want to remind that combos don't make a character better (look at Wario he has barely any combos). If Roy gets in he will pretty much destroy you. Yeah I said "IF". Roy's safest approach tool is Nair, which is still rather lacking at the safety part. Marth's stalling fall speed allows to pone his foes with Fair and Nair safely. Well I started to repeat myself, but it seems like people tend to forget that kinda have to have safe approach tools on shield if you want to approach.

Roy might have more favourable MUs, but as far as I know he doesn't really Counter (bad pun) anyone (or any top tier) like Marth (destroys Wario). Marth is greatish counterpick character when Roy is okish as a solo main. Also I don't think Roy is Samus bad, but he has more flaws than Marth atm. Ofc both are completely different characters and should be played differently. Also both characters lack the results atm so our "opinions" are mostly based on theorycrafting. Atm Marth has the theory advantage over Roy, but the situation might be different in the future.

Also it seems like I was watching the outdated list. Yeah so no - for Roy. Gotta edit my older vote post.

Edit: also this is not how you argue with someone. This makes you look/sound like a angry fanboy who cannot handle his favourite character no being in top tier.

You don't need to counter any top tiers to be good. ot only matters how well you fare against them in general. Having 50:50 with all top tiers is better than countering 3 and getting countered by 3 for example. Marth bodies one high tier and goes even with a couple, but as it looks RN Roy fares better against the high tiers (and the rest of the cast).

 

[Qwibbles]

+1
+1
+1

 

[Routa]

Very true, but sadly Roy has worse MUs against combo characters (and top tier is full of them) than Marth. But you are correct about character able to be good even tho getting rekt by top tier. For example Faptain has very poor MUs against top tiers, but he does very well against low and mid tier characters. But for example countering one top tier is far more important than countering two worst characters in game.

Anyways I don't deny Roy for being in same tier as Marth, BUT both being in the same tier as Ike? For me Ike should be in the top part of tier 4 while Marth being in the last character in tier 4 and Roy being at the top of tier 5. When talking about characters you must always compare it to other characters in order to find its correct place within tier list. For example Doc is bottom tier when you only compare him to Mario, but when you add other characters in to the function... Well look at his current placing.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Anyways I don't deny Roy for being in same tier as Marth, BUT both being in the same tier as Ike? For me Ike should be in the top part of tier 4 while Marth being in the last character in tier 4 and Roy being at the top of tier 5. When talking about characters you must always compare it to other characters in order to find its correct place within tier list. For example Doc is bottom tier when you only compare him to Mario, but when you add other characters in to the function... Well look at his current placing.

Ike being better than both Marth and Roy? Sorry, but am I missing something here? Roy and Marth both have faster moves that can be either as powerful if you use the sweet spot or set up things if you use the sour spot. I would say Marth is slightly higher than Roy (less gimpable recovery), with Ike being the worst, but please explain to me why you think Ike is the best of the three.

 

[Routa]

Ike being better than both Marth and Roy? Sorry, but am I missing something here? Roy and Marth both have faster moves that can be either as powerful if you use the sweet spot or set up things if you use the sour spot. I would say Marth is slightly higher than Roy (less gimpable recovery), with Ike being the worst, but please explain to me why you think Ike is the best of the three.

This has been discussed in Viability Rating thread a lot so I feel like I don't need to post everything that has been said there. So I will link you the thread and you my search it yourself: http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-ratings-v2-competitive-impressions.410551/

I suggest also other to check out that thread and maybe move discussion about character there and leave the voting here. It is kinda pointless to write everything again and again and again on every random thread where someone disagrees with you.

But few things what Ike has going for himself that I will point out are: one of the best edgeguarding game, a lot of kill moves, throw game, can kill early and great spacing game. Even tho he might not be as fast as Marth or Roy (Roy's Bair come on frame 8-9 and Jab on frame 5-7 when Marth's Bair comes on frame 7-11 and Jab come on frame 5-7. Ike's Bair come out on frame 7-9 and Jab on frame 4-5... Yeah so slow /s).

Edit: some Ike play:
http://youtu.be/vilH65oT9aQ
http://youtu.be/ckuFDntjDnk
http://youtu.be/oz9eYqP5J8M

 

[Vyrnx]

People upset about Luigi's tier placement at "#4", remember characters aren't ordered within tiers. His current placement in the list is the same as Ryu. The character is top 10, please don't down vote him to tier 3 again, or we will have to up vote him to tier 2 again, which is currently the main theme of this thread.

Personally I want to wait until the (possible) balance patch to make votes.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Its not Zeros opinion, its because marths above him.

So Marth's above him, and what is everyone doing? Down voting Marth. At this rate he will end up in the bottom tier, which he clearly isn't. This is why Luigi was always moving about constantly, because nobody look what others have posted, and thus, everyone votes for the same thing and it becomes far too drastic. This is why Roy is now below Marth and why Marth is heading back down towards the bottom tier.

Honestly, Marth and Roy are both good. Roy is better than Marth in general, but they are both very similar and I think deserve to be in the same tier.

 

[IndigoSSB]

I just scrolled through a lot of text with little votes, and I'll admit that I didn't read it. I got the gist of it though, the usual Marth vs. Roy (which is funny, they don't really play alike yet we keep comparing them). I won't say much except this: in a game ruled by powerful defensive options in the form of shields, Marth is better at attacking it safely than Roy.

+ Doesn't deserve her own tier. I said this last voting round, but I'm intent on eradicating that last tier.
+ Tipper matters. It doesn't two-tier matter though.

This list is getting close to my ideal tier list in my head (without making drastic changes in the number of tiers) so I'll hold off on my last vote for now.

 

[Deleted member]

-1
-1
+1

 

[Galgatha]

+1
-1
-1

Honestly i feel like Falco belongs in teir 4, middle/bottom but still in tier 4, he may not have alot of speed on the ground, but his killing potential and aerial game outrank Fox by far so how can he be so far below him i do not know. Ryu i cannot see being up in tier 2 at all, he is good but not THAT good, same with Mario. How in the hell is mario in tier 2? His recovery is aweful, crap for a range game, i personally just dont understand how Mario is so high up, especially without customs.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

+1 Captain Falcon
+1 Ryu
-1 DK

 

[RMF]

-1
-1
+1

 

[Seige]

Wow so much anti rn.

+1
+1
+1
Last vote was between the pits, mewtwo rise, or gunner oppression. I swear what is with 's rank. I forgot to look for him last time, but there is no way he's that low.
... If recovery was the only argument, then there isn't a reason to move him down lol. I mean we all know has suuuuuch a good recovery. too(half sarcastic).
Even with the defensive metagame, the pits can weasel through openings with their moves and I'm pretty sure another tier higher would be fine

(P.S. Free and oppress )

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

+ 1 K seriously people?
+1 Why is he so low now???
Come on give him a chance people +1

 

[Kasai]

-1
+1
+1

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Wow so much anti rn.

+1
+1
+1
Last vote was between the pits, mewtwo rise, or gunner oppression. I swear what is with 's rank. I forgot to look for him last time, but there is no way he's that low.
... If recovery was the only argument, then there isn't a reason to move him down lol. I mean we all know has suuuuuch a good recovery. too(half sarcastic).
Even with the defensive metagame, the pits can weasel through openings with their moves and I'm pretty sure another tier higher would be fine

(P.S. Free and oppress )

The Pit Boys should really be high tier, and Mario definitely shouldn't be hated(that can go to Luigi).

 

[Greek Greninja]

I thought I saw a - Peach so:
+1