Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[TMNTSSB4]

It's debatable. IMO, though Jiggs recovery isn't interesting or anything like that, its a combination of air speed, six jumps, and good aerials that makes her recovery good. Unlike other characters who have multiple jumps, all of Jiggs jumps go full speed and height, so she can weave in and out, air dodge almost as much as she wants, and even if she gets hit, she can make it back usually. Though gimmicky up bs like G&W and Pika are better overall.

TMNTSSB4 I'm pretty sure Sheik's up-b is only vincible for one frame. If you mess up, it can kill you, and the windbox when she reappears makes her so hard to punish. I mean, Sheik's up b is relatively safe on stage, let alone off. The thing is, you probably won't be in any position to punish her up b at startup because she will have knocked you away or forced an air dodge with the ridiculous range and disjoint on one of her aerials like fair. Also wall jump and bouncing fish help a lot. She can pretty much recover from almost anywhere at any angle.

What sets apart many of the best recoveries is their nonlinear-ness. Their are exceptions, like Zelda and G&W, but you aren't going to intercept any of those within reason and the risk is too great. Pikachu, MK, Sheik, ZSS can do pretty much whatever they want off stage and recover anyway they want. They are very nearly ungimpable.

Ryu's recovery is linear for sure, but invincibility and the risk of edge guarding may make his recovery top 10-15. For now though, it isn't the same level of Pikachu/MK/Sheik/Greninja/etc.

Never noticed invincibility frames in her recovery. Guess I throw out Pit's dair quicker than Sheik can recover.

 

[Zeth444]

Rosalina says otherwise

Greninja's isn't top 5. Side-b is good but used improperly to recover and you will get heavily punished, and up-b doesnt have a hitbox anywhere so it auto makes it not top 5. Not having a hitbox = huge potential to die when you're offstage.

Direction flexibility > Hitbox
Ask Pikachu, Rosalina, Greninja, ZSS, Shiek, etc

 

[hiramsthoughts]

-Diddy
+Luigi
+Donkey

 

[IndigoSSB]

+ At this rate it's going to end up in its own tier at the bottom. Just no, I feel like people don't appreciate its spacing tools because of its lack of exposure.
+ I want to eradicate that bottom tier.
+ Up

 

[TMNTSSB4]

+ At this rate she's going to end up in her own tier at the bottom. Just no, I feel like people don't appreciate her spacing tools because of her lack of exposure.
+ I want to eradicate that bottom tier.
+ Up

Miis have no gender, no matter the situation.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Miis have no gender, no matter the situation.

Ok. I'll edit it if it bother you.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Ok. I'll edit it if it bother you.

Lol, you missed one.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Ok. I'll edit it if it bother you.

Not really bothered, just bored right now.

 

[Bowserboy3]

+1
Honestly doesn't get enough representation and credit for what he's capable of.

+1
Not sure how she's an entire tier down from Marth considering the range she has is only slightly shorter.
-1
Over rated inferior Mario clone.

Regarding Lucina, I think the reason people consider her a tier down from Marth is the fact that her moves are totally not safe on shield, where as Marth's are a bit safer on shield (still not like 100% safe, but safer than Lucina) due to a hitlag modifier that Lucina doesn't have. Also, last patch made attacks with a hitlag modifier of 1.0 or more (for example, Marth's tipper), essentially even safer on shield, as the attacker will receive less hitlag than before. Lucina doesn't have this at all. However, I do think she's still an ok character. Definetly not on Marth's level the same way Pit and Pitoo are similar, but still good. Like regarding people above her, I think Lucina has the tools to beat Doc, Puff, Jr, and Falco easily. This would put her more in line with Marth. But in turn, I still think Marth has the potential to beat all the characters above him in his tier, bar maybe Toon Link, who I also think is underrated. The sheer fact Marth has his tipper means he's always going to be quite a bit above her. I have a friend who uses Lucina, where as I opt to play Marth. Generally, I win most of our "clone matches", but Lucina is still usable, which people seem to gloss over.

Also, is it actually confirmed in hard evidence that Lucina has less range? I swear Lucina hits me when her sword never touches me... Is it possible that her sword has a bigger hitbox to match the range of Marth's? Probably not, but I swear she hits me when she clearly doesnt'...

 

[TheEpicHer0]

Link +1
Luigi +1
Diddy -1

 

[Routa]

+1
-1
-1

 

[Rinku リンク]

Regarding Lucina, I think the reason people consider her a tier down from Marth is the fact that her moves are totally not safe on shield, where as Marth's are a bit safer on shield (still not like 100% safe, but safer than Lucina) due to a hitlag modifier that Lucina doesn't have. Also, last patch made attacks with a hitlag modifier of 1.0 or more (for example, Marth's tipper), essentially even safer on shield, as the attacker will receive less hitlag than before. Lucina doesn't have this at all. However, I do think she's still an ok character. Definetly not on Marth's level the same way Pit and Pitoo are similar, but still good. Like regarding people above her, I think Lucina has the tools to beat Doc, Puff, Jr, and Falco easily. This would put her more in line with Marth. But in turn, I still think Marth has the potential to beat all the characters above him in his tier, bar maybe Toon Link, who I also think is underrated. The sheer fact Marth has his tipper means he's always going to be quite a bit above her. I have a friend who uses Lucina, where as I opt to play Marth. Generally, I win most of our "clone matches", but Lucina is still usable, which people seem to gloss over.

Also, is it actually confirmed in hard evidence that Lucina has less range? I swear Lucina hits me when her sword never touches me... Is it possible that her sword has a bigger hitbox to match the range of Marth's? Probably not, but I swear she hits me when she clearly doesnt'...

I had no idea about the hit lag modifier thanks for the info.

I play the Marth vs. Lucina match up as well with a friend who mains Lucina. I agree the tipper factor does give quite a bit of an advantage.

However, like you said I also believe she's still a decent character who should be given a bit more credit.

As for the range factor it's because she's slightly shorter than Marth. My source is from a video I've provided below.

 

[Izayoi]

I play the Marth vs. Lucina match up as well with a friend who mains Lucina. I agree the tipper factor does give quite a bit of an advantage.

You called?
Anyway... Honestly, it doesn't really matter where Lucina or Marth place in a tier list; it's pretty clear that both of them need more buffs. Roy doesn't deserve to be better!


+1
+1
-1

 

[Deleted member]

+1
Honestly doesn't get enough representation and credit for what he's capable of.

+1
Not sure how she's an entire tier down from Marth considering the range she has is only slightly shorter.
-1
Over rated inferior Mario clone.

>upvotes Lucina
>downvotes Dr. Mario despite even if he is a worse character, he has the tools to hold up on his own and has a hell of a lot of attributes that differentiates him from Mario unlike Lucina to Marth

I do not understand the logic for votes in this thread sometimes, seriously. The reason Lucina is down from Marth is because her having no sweetspot in her sword completely removes the importance of playing Marth due to his tipper: spacing. Considering Marth's already meh range in this game as is, it hurts her further.

 

[mayday_29]

+1 Villager
+1 DHD
+1 Peach

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

+1 Villager
+1 DHD
+1 Peach
+1 Mega Man

Only three votes per phase. You should remove one of your votes.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

+1
+1
-1

 

[[Deuce]]

+1
-1
-1

^

 

[Rinku リンク]

>upvotes Lucina
>downvotes Dr. Mario despite even if he is a worse character, he has the tools to hold up on his own and has a hell of a lot of attributes that differentiates him from Mario unlike Lucina to Marth

I could argue the same exact thing with Lucina honestly.

Don't get me wrong I agree Marth's better than Lucina but the gap between them is far too big in my opinion.

I honestly believe you're over estimating how much better Marth is than Lucina.

 

[Deleted member]

I could argue the same exact thing with Lucina honestly.

Don't get me wrong I agree Marth's better than Lucina but the gap between them is far too big in my opinion.

I honestly believe you're over estimating how much better Marth is than Lucina.

The thing is, Lucina is literally Marth with no tipper. If you're trying to argue she's anything beyond then more power to you. Doc at least has different tidbits in his moveset compared to Mario compared to him carrying over his Melee moveset, and that he has to play a more careful, defensive playstyle due to him having lower speed, traction and jumps and worse offstage game than Mario.

 

[Izayoi]

The thing is, Lucina is literally Marth with no tipper. If you're trying to argue she's anything beyond then more power to you. Doc at least has different tidbits in his moveset compared to Mario compared to him carrying over his Melee moveset, and that he has to play a more careful, defensive playstyle due to him having lower speed, traction and jumps and worse offstage game than Mario.

So, basically.. You're agreeing with his downvote on Dr. Mario. Alright, case closed.

 

[Lukingordex]

+1 (he's better than that)
-1(he has a lot of problems, he doesn't deserve that spot, specially being above greninja which has waaaay better match ups than him)
+1 (I agree people tend to overrate him but I think he's too low in this list)

 

[Paxadin]

I honestly believe you're over estimating how much better Marth is than Lucina.

At casual level? Sure.
At top level, though? A Marth can do things while a Lucina will get laughed at. The difference is massive too.
With a Marth that knows how to space properly, he can EASILY kill you at 60%+, and all while being safe on shield.

Now, if you can't space the tipper with Marth, then go for Lucina, where a randomly placed smash attack will surely kill earlier.
All it takes is knowing your spacing.

 

[Rinku リンク]

At casual level? Sure.
At top level, though? A Marth can do things while a Lucina will get laughed at. The difference is massive too.
With a Marth that knows how to space properly, he can EASILY kill you at 60%+, and all while being safe on shield.

Now, if you can't space the tipper with Marth, then go for Lucina, where a randomly placed smash attack will surely kill earlier.
All it takes is knowing your spacing.

I agree with your statement entirely.

I just believe Lucina deserves a bit more credit is all.

 

[NickRiddle]

-
+
+

 

[Deleted member]

So, basically.. You're agreeing with his downvote on Dr. Mario. Alright, case closed.

How about you don't put words in my mouth? I'm saying Dr. Mario of course does have flaws, but he has a ton more going for him than Lucina will dream of having. Him having the KO power he has with Mario's great frame data can be absolutely deadly in the right hands. Exhibit A: Smash G0D.

 

[Izayoi]

How about you don't put words in my mouth? I'm saying Dr. Mario of course does have flaws, but he has a ton more going for him than Lucina will dream of having. Him having the KO power he has with Mario's great frame data can be absolutely deadly in the right hands. Exhibit A: Smash G0D.

So basically your entire argument now is that Dr. Mario is better than Lucina, and that Twilightlink421 is wrong to upvote Lucina and downvote Dr. Mario because of it... Despite this entire tier list being built upon opinions?

 

[Rinku リンク]

How about you don't put words in my mouth? I'm saying Dr. Mario of course does have flaws, but he has a ton more going for him than Lucina will dream of having. Him having the KO power he has with Mario's great frame data can be absolutely deadly in the right hands. Exhibit A: Smash G0D.

I could say the same about Ryo's Lucina.

Dr.Mario may have the tools to be have great potential but his glaring problem is his recovery.

Lucina lacks a tipper but at least her recovery is at least decent so she doesn't get flat out destroyed once she's off stage.

In my opinion, that makes her more viable than Dr.Mario in competitive play.

 

[Deleted member]

So basically your entire argument now is that Dr. Mario is better than Lucina, and that Twilightlink421 is wrong to upvote Lucina and downvote Dr. Mario because of it... Despite this entire tier list being built upon opinions?

Again, it's her opinion. I'm just saying the logic of her saying Dr. Mario is a "dumb, overrated Mario clone" was kinda boggling, but at least she stated her reasoning afterwards. But whatever, I don't want this to become a pages-long argument so I'll drop it.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

The thing is, Lucina is literally Marth with no tipper. If you're trying to argue she's anything beyond then more power to you. Doc at least has different tidbits in his moveset compared to Mario compared to him carrying over his Melee moveset, and that he has to play a more careful, defensive playstyle due to him having lower speed, traction and jumps and worse offstage game than Mario.

But that isn't true, see...
The thing that Lucina has over Marth is that she's easier to consistently kill with. You don't need to space perfectly with her in order to do stuff, because her power is throughout her sword, rather than in one specific spot. Remember, Marth only really has his tipper. It's not like he's powerful throughout and then REALLY powerful at the tip...

Anyway, Lucina's basically for people who love the way Marth moves, but just can't get the spacing down. She's honestly barely worse than Marth, IMO she's a spot or two behind him in my own personal tier list.

 

[Paxadin]

But that isn't true, see...
The thing that Lucina has over Marth is that she's easier to consistently kill with. You don't need to space perfectly with her in order to do stuff, because her power is throughout her sword, rather than in one specific spot. Remember, Marth only really has his tipper. It's not like he's powerful throughout and then REALLY powerful at the tip...

Anyway, Lucina's basically for people who love the way Marth moves, but just can't get the spacing down. She's honestly barely worse than Marth, IMO she's a spot or two behind him in my own personal tier list.

Minor difference?
I'm sorry, but dying at 60% from an uncharged smash attack when you're a heavy character compared to 100-120% is a MAJOR difference.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Anyway... Honestly, it doesn't really matter where Lucina or Marth place in a tier list; it's pretty clear that both of them need more buffs.

This is correct. I had to go back to Brawl the other day, as I was installing Riivolution on the Wii U Wii Mode, and you need Brawl to do it. So while the files were all downloading, I thought I would go have a few games on Brawl, choosing my old faithful main, Marth (before I go on, can I just say thank god random tripping is gone). I can't believe how much I enjoyed using him. Now Smash 4 Marth has had a few changes for the better, such as a generally more powerful tipper and a bit more reach in some attacks (mainly Utilt, Ftilt, Nair etc). However, after playing Brawl Marth again, I think I pinpointed what was missing for me. Double Fair, and his old Fthrow, that launches opponents just in front of him, not further like in Smash 4. I mean I would love Smash 4 Marth to have a bit more range on Fsmash, or have a better Dthrow, or make Dancing Blade even more reliable etc, but I think I would be satisfied if he got the 2 things I mentioned back. Marth can keep his slightly increased landing lag on Fair. I mean, maybe that would make Short Hop Double Fair less "OP" (I know it's not really OP, but I couldn't find the right word to express me opinion). Please Sakurai, give him these options back... please...

 

[Dcas]

+ 1 ( dear god, the most underrated character in the tier list)
+1
+1

Top 28 looks very good, problem starts with tier 5.

 

[Browny]

Minor difference?
I'm sorry, but dying at 60% from an uncharged smash attack when you're a heavy character compared to 100-120% is a MAJOR difference.

And people once again conveniently forgetting the part where lucinas smashes are actually a lot more powerful than marths non-tipper. her fsmash kills 26% earlier than marths non-tipper. Thats really not something to ignore, since marth isnt always going to be landing a tipper fsmash (which is his only move that has a lot more KO power). in almost every other situation lucina overall does KO earlier.

 

[Paxadin]

And people once again conveniently forgetting the part where lucinas smashes are actually a lot more powerful than marths non-tipper. her fsmash kills 26% earlier than marths non-tipper. Thats really not something to ignore, since marth isnt always going to be landing a tipper fsmash (which is his only move that has a lot more KO power). in almost every other situation lucina overall does KO earlier.

Which is exactly the point, a good Marth will almost ALWAYS get tipper. You'd be surprised but a local Marth player here is amazing at tippers and gets them rather consistently.

A little off-topic but, nothing more heart breaking than having your shield broken at 20% and getting sent beyond blast zones that early from near mid-stage when you're top 5 heavy weights...
I've been killed at 80% by a properly placed up-dancing blade.

It's like if I said that Roy is only slightly better than Lucina because the tip of his blade is not as consistent as Lucina's entire blade.

 

[Browny]

Which is exactly the point, a good Marth will almost ALWAYS get tipper. You'd be surprised but a local Marth player here is amazing at tippers and gets them rather consistently.

A good Mewtwo will always get the disable, high tier obv.

Marth has nothing that combos into fsmash and it doesnt hit in front of him until around frame 12 so its not exactly fast enough to be easy to hit with whenever you want. He is never guaranteed to get an fsmash tipper. For comparison, mewtwos disable is 16, so its not too much of a stretch to suggest that almost every time marths gets a tipper, mewtwo couldnt land a disable.

Marths dont always get the tipper, thats such a poor argument because I can say that about any character with a non guaranteed powerful kill move. Please, show me some good youtube videos of marths winning a match and/or reliably getting a tipper. The only marth footage I ever see is of marth/lucina non-serious matches, or him losing.

I'd love to see some pro marth player killing everyone at mid % but I have never seen it. All i see are them losing and then switching to other characters.

 

[Deleted member]

A good Mewtwo will always get the disable, high tier obv.

Marth has nothing that combos into fsmash and it doesnt hit in front of him until around frame 12 so its not exactly fast enough to be easy to hit with whenever you want. He is never guaranteed to get an fsmash tipper. For comparison, mewtwos disable is 16, so its not too much of a stretch to suggest that almost every time marths gets a tipper, mewtwo couldnt land a disable.

Marths dont always get the tipper, thats such a poor argument because I can say that about any character with a non guaranteed powerful kill move. Please, show me some good youtube videos of marths winning a match and/or reliably getting a tipper. The only marth footage I ever see is of marth/lucina non-serious matches, or him losing.

I'd love to see some pro marth player killing everyone at mid % but I have never seen it. All i see are them losing and then switching to other characters.

Pretty sure jab goes into fsmash, but idk what specific percents.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

+1
-1
-1

 

[HerpFish]

+ 1 ( dear god, the most underrated character in the tier list)

I've been advocating that Jr. is underrated here for a while, but can you share your reasoning for why he should move out of his current tier? He has things going for him like aerial combos out of side-b and eventually up-b hammer, but he also has a weak hitbox on his head that gets hit far more often than his strong hitbox, especially when it comes to getting KO'ed. I'm not trying to be rude, but I need some good justification before I can see him moving up, because I love this character and want him to be accurately placed.

 

[Bowserboy3]

+ 1 ( dear god, the most underrated character in the tier list)
+1
+1

Top 28 looks very good, problem starts with tier 5.

Personally, I'd say that Samus is the most underrated character in this list, BUUUT you did also give her an up vote. Kudos to you!