SWF Brawl Ladder Rankings (updated algorithms on first post)

[JustShyofGenius]

That's exactly what I mean. Have a value for pick-up games that is relatively low, then have a value for tournaments. Then maybe have a higher value for top 4 of the tournament or whatever. Then have even higher value for more important tournaments (if there is any such thing).

 

[Caael]

Just do what Mario Strikers charged does- if you turn off during a match, it counts as a loss. It does it in the campaign mode, not sure about online though.

 

[The Oddity]

Have everyone start at a rating of say, 2500 and have each match worth a set amount of points. It's generally 15 points or so. The person that wins gains points equal to 15*their rating/opponent's rating. The person that loses loses the same amount of points. This is the simplest and most efficient way to do a ratings system.

Wouldn't the equation be something like 15*opponent's ranking/your ranking. The way you have it, you would gain more point with a lower opponent:

You: 3000
Opponent: 2000

Previous way: 15*3000/2000 = 22.5

My way: 15*2000/3000 =10

Of course, you could always put it in terms of the winner and loser.

15*loser/winner.

This way, as above, if the opponent wins, the points are more, because he defeated a higher person. If you won, the points are less, because the opponent had less points.

I think that is quite fair, and is much simpler than what I've read here. Again, you can always change the 15 to something higher for more important matches.

Just a thought...

 

[Caael]

If you quite or turn off, it counts as a loss. Strikers Charged did it.

 

[180OP]

I can code in PHP and use MySQL, know even some javascript and HTML ofcourse. If you want any help, you can give me a shout.

 

[Pip]

I just wanted to add my support to this idea. I think the addition of online play will open the door for a much stronger global Smash community, and ideas like this are a great way to support the development of such. I would also be interested in this personally because it would give me greater incentive to work hard and improve my game.

 

[JustShyofGenius]

Wouldn't the equation be something like 15*opponent's ranking/your ranking. The way you have it, you would gain more point with a lower opponent:

You: 3000
Opponent: 2000

Previous way: 15*3000/2000 = 22.5

My way: 15*2000/3000 =10

Of course, you could always put it in terms of the winner and loser.

15*loser/winner.

This way, as above, if the opponent wins, the points are more, because he defeated a higher person. If you won, the points are less, because the opponent had less points.

I think that is quite fair, and is much simpler than what I've read here. Again, you can always change the 15 to something higher for more important matches.

Just a thought...

Oops. Yeah, mine is wrong and yours is right. I hadn't slept in forever...thanks for correcting it.

 

[h1roshi]

good to see your still working and revising this idea...peace

-hiroshi

 

[Jihnsius]

The problem I see with that is this (which I'm trying to avoid): if rank 1 plays someone towards the bottom and rank 1 wins, the loser will lose a lot more points than if the loser were to lose to someone within their seed. This is highly unfair.

 

[The Oddity]

The problem I see with that is this (which I'm trying to avoid): if rank 1 plays someone towards the bottom and rank 1 wins, the loser will lose a lot more points than if the loser were to lose to someone within their seed. This is highly unfair.

rank 1 : 15000+
rank ? : 2000

Rank 1 win: 15*2000/15000= 2 whole points. That's not even worth the fight for the Rank 1 dude.

Rank 1 wins 2 points, Rank ? loses 2 points. No Biggie...

Rank ? win: 15*15000/2000= 112.5 points. If the rank 1 person loses to another with such a low rank, don't you think they deserve to lose that many points, and the other gain that much?


However, I could see were people would ONLY fight someone way above them because the points lost isn't great, but the potential gain is enormous.

 

[JesterBox]

I don't think we need a ranking system, just let your reputation do the talking. Thats how Mellee worked.

 

[Chi's Finest]

If they have online for Smash, I'm sure Gamebattles and MLG will take care of it. I don't know how it works, but they have it work out that you go up more for defeating a higher ranked team/perosn.

 

[Kashakunaki]

I disagree Jester and Chi. I think the community needs to do something about and that the topic creator, Jihn, is on to something.

Unfortunately, there isn't much I contribute other than my complete support. Great idea.

 

[Caael]

Ranking sucks. It just makes some people look just so uber amazing and some stupidly rubbish and it just seems a bit unfair for those who just want to have fun online for a while, and nobody will play them because they are 'scrubs' or 'noobs'

 

[Oathblivion]

I dunno. Ranking in Melee was done purely by reputation, and that worked just fine. Still, I'd like to be able to see an actual table.

The problems with reputation ranking are readily noticeable. Most obvious of all, you can be one of the best players around, but if you lose important matches then that hurts you quite a bit. With a simple ranking system like what has already been suggested (I think Yahoo! Games uses it too), you run the risk of it not being accurate. Also, people would not play their best.

In the Go community there is a phenomenon known as Online Go Anxiety. People's minds start to rush, their palms get sweaty, and as a result they play well below what they are capable of. Most think this is because of most online servers keeping a strict ranking system. If enough people playing Brawl were to become so afraid of losing their record that they started playing like crap, then the community as a whole would be hurt.

Now, most of what I've jsut typed is merely speculation as to what *could* happen. Odds are that a SWF-wide ranking system would be a pretty good idea. I say go for it, and if it causes problems it's not like it would cost any money, right?

 

[McCloud_Master]

This will be fun. But how will you keep track of the Matchs?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The ranking system is completely optional and experimental.

 

[RPK]

I approve of this :3

 

[Jihnsius]

The ranking system is completely optional and experimental.

Bingo. Keeping track of matches is something we'll work out later once we have a firm understanding of how Brawl online works, there's not too much we can do right now other than theorize, and I think we're coming up with some pretty good ideas so far.

 

[Adi]

Even if there is a ranking system in Brawl reputation will be the main means of recognition. My friend is an avid Halo 2 player and although online he plays on par with some decent MLG peeps because he can't go to tournaments, no one would have any idea who he is. Online for brawl will just be a means of practice, the reputation will develop at the tournament play ^^.

 

[Jihnsius]

We could even go as far as to have tournaments based around the ladder, or use the ladder standings for invitations to local tournaments.

 

[Jihnsius]

However, I could see were people would ONLY fight someone way above them because the points lost isn't great, but the potential gain is enormous.

Using your method we could simply restrict challenges to be able to be made up to so many ranks above said person.

However, user-friendliness is a big deal in things like this, and making people do math to figure out what they'll win/lose depending on who they play wouldn't be good.

Then again, we could always do the math for them and include the win/loss numbers next to the target player's info when a user is logged in.

 

[The Oddity]

I'm not saying my method is fantastic, I really like the way you are doing things. Putting restrictions on players me not be the best option. We could have a set amount for losing/winning plus the calculated value.

For example: if you lose you may lose a set number of points, maybe depending on which "tier" you and the other guy are in. The calculated value could then only be added to the winners score. That way, people are less likely to attack down, and more likely to stay within their own tier. Of course, upper tier folks won't have to accept challenges from lower tiers, if they don't want to.

 

[Jihnsius]

I'm not saying my method is fantastic, I really like the way you are doing things. Putting restrictions on players me not be the best option. We could have a set amount for losing/winning plus the calculated value.

For example: if you lose you may lose a set number of points, maybe depending on which "tier" you and the other guy are in. The calculated value could then only be added to the winners score. That way, people are less likely to attack down, and more likely to stay within their own tier. Of course, upper tier folks won't have to accept challenges from lower tiers, if they don't want to.

I like that. Clever.

 

[monty06]

We could even go as far as to have tournaments based around the ladder, or use the ladder standings for invitations to local tournaments.

nah i dont think thats a good idea i think that might just put people of

 

[SCOTU]

An example of why this would be less exploitable than an online Brawl ladder: If someone has two Wiis, they could keep setting up matches against an idle character and gaining rank. With the SWF ladder, you'd only be able to play semi-respected members of the forum (100+ posts or so?) that have been approved. We could also set it up so that not only is each account unique to the SWF user, but also to their Wii ID# and/or IP address.

The PHP

There are a few things i don't like about this paragraph in particular. First, Post count has nothing to do with skill/ respect.
Second, about Wii ID#/ IP address, what about the possibility of having two players to one Wii? I go to college now, and there are plenty of roommates that play, but only have one system (it'd be stupid to have multiples). For instance, My roommate has a Wii, and i do not yet have one. We both play smash though. Also, what about those players who don't own a Wii, but are still competitive? Two guys in my crew in particular don't have cubes (well, ankoku got his very recently), but they played frequently, due to the convenience of a dorm, and other people having the game.

Also, what tier would people start at?

Actually, I'm kind of agaisnt a ladder based on matches set up like that, i'd prefer a ladder based on points for tournament placings (pts based on prize $, attendance, and people attending). But i'm just pointing out a few things that you could make better about your system.

for the record, i don't see brawl's potential network play being used in the competitive setting for performance reasons.

 

[Jihnsius]

Actually, I'm kind of agaisnt a ladder based on matches set up like that, i'd prefer a ladder based on points for tournament placings (pts based on prize $, attendance, and people attending). But i'm just pointing out a few things that you could make better about your system.

Tournament rankings is exactly what I'm trying to get away from with this idea.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

This is... interesting.

-Interesting idea, it could work.
~But it will be exploited or people would be too lazy to do the rankings, its a lot to keep track of. Going between my computer and Wii or having to write all of it down.
~Also how would all of this be kept organized, is there a program or something thats out there that could keep track of it? I'm sure a few people wouldn't want to sit here and get mass PMs all day and have to record it. Like you said it would be an addon but is there one out right now?

Though I do want a ranking system to see how much someone plays all the time. If there needs to be one, I'll be a beta tester if the addon is being developed

-Onyx

 

[Jihnsius]

~Also how would all of this be kept organized, is there a program or something thats out there that could keep track of it? I'm sure a few people wouldn't want to sit here and get mass PMs all day and have to record it. Like you said it would be an addon but is there one out right now?

Buzz and I are working out ideas for how it'll work, but needless to say everything will be automated. Complaints, however, would have to be handled manually.

 

[SCOTU]

If you've heard of the tia system, that'd be a good place to start...

 

[JustShyofGenius]

I still think some of you are over complicating this and we should just do a basic ELO system.

 

[Andromeda]

But I guess it would be quite boring for us who lives in Europe if Brawl is regioned. I mean, there's obviously more Americans on SWF than Europeans, Asians, Africans or Australians. Even together.

 

[Jihnsius]

I still think some of you are over complicating this and we should just do a basic ELO system.

It's a possibility. This is just brainstorming, after all, as we won't know what to expect until after Brawl's out.

 

[Jihnsius]

Wi-Fi confirmed. No rankings confirmed. Looks like this project has the green light.

Where are you, Buzz?

 

[Percon]

Sounds good! I know it needs a bit of work bit it is most certainly pull-off-able. I wish you luck.

Oh, and we should get everyone on SWF on teamspeak or similar service.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Wi-Fi confirmed. No rankings confirmed. Looks like this project has the green light.

Where are you, Buzz?

I'm right here. Let's do this. ^_^

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I'm right here. Let's do this. ^_^

I like this. Brawl's online is confirmed to have no rankings, and anyway I feel this would work better than in-game rankings. Another purpose of this would be to identify people that you ae about equal in skill with, so you can duel them using friends codes. You have my full support.

 

[raphtmarqui]

A ranking system would be awesome

 

[Dynamism]

I'm sure there will be several rankings systems about. The more the better. The best way would be something like a vote. There's a tourney, and afterwards, you can vote for the players you think stood out. And after a while, the same players from every tourney will end up in the higher ranked tourneys, eventually leading to the top ranks all in one.

That's a long term thing though, just a thought. Either way, "word of mouth travels fast"

 

[Anther]

Yeah, as long as you're limited to playing against the same opponent 2-3 times a day, abuse isn't too big of an issue. Well.. it is, but then you can look at someone's match list, and if they're playing the same opponents over and over again, there's a problem.

How cool would that be if brawl saved replays of matches online, and the files could be temporarily downloaded, so say.. SWF could download the replay and disputes can be verified like that XD.
That way, that even if someone plays against 50 opponents a day, but you go to watch the player's games, and every match just so happens to have a pikachu with a different name suiciding 4 lives in 20 seconds...

It's a cool concept, especially since brawl probably isn't going to be too heavy on stopping cheating or whatever on its own most likely.