Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[Chrono.]

http://personacentral.com/genei-ibun-roku-fe-debuts-with-poor-sales-in-japan/

Hoooly yikes.

 

[ChikoLad]

On the clone situation, the biggest thing about it that people tend to forget that as of now:


Is still a clone?

Because his whole moveset changed since 64 and he isn't even a clone anymore aside from 3-4 moves. He's separated from Mario so much that he isn't even a clone


aren't what they were in Melee especially with Ganondorf's command grab, Up-Tilt (which been there since Melee), down smash, forward tilt, forward air and ***. Falco is the same from ALL of his normals aside from 2 moves.

And then , he doesn't even look like Marth anymore and doesn't even nothing similar with normals due to how much he's been changed up.


doesn't even count anymore since he isn't less of a Link clone due to multiple things like his aerials tilts, animation and size.


The only true clones are just because they were upgraded alts and has atleast 2 major differences that makes him unique

Roy and Toon Link still classify as semi-clones to me.

Specials are still similar to the source and their normals still either have some similar effects or similar animations.

Like yeah they changed some of Roy's moves but he still has a lot of similarities to Marth. For example, while his F-air animation is a little different this time, looking more rough than Marth's, it's still just him swinging his sword in front of him while in the air. The hitbox and all is a bit different but it's hardly some hugely different move.

Roy does at least have the difference in how his sword works overall. But at the end of the day, I do not feel like going from Marth to Roy/Link to Toon Link, or vice versa, is really a massive jump. It does take some adaptation, so it's not like Lucina and Dark Pit who take next to no adaptation from the source, but it's hardly like the jump from playing Mario to playing Shulk or something.

Not that I really mind semi-clones. In this game, I prefer both Toon Link and Roy to their original counterparts.

 

[Pazzo.]

For those who are interested in my disorganized opinions of Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS, a summary of my thoughts and feelings toward the two games are beyond the enclosed spoiler.

Spoiler: Enjoy.

Three years is a long time to wait for a game. Three years of guessing and theorizing, plotting and laughing, learning and unlearning.

So how does it all measure up now that the final DLC has been announced?

Super Smash Bros. has always been a special series to me. It's introduced me to most of my favorite gaming experiences, whether through character inclusion or discussing games with people on Smashboards. Masahiro Sakurai has undertook four herculean tasks, to bring us a fighting game with 12+ franchises represented. Of course, Sakurai is no demi-god, and therefore will make mistakes. Not as many franchises get represented, time and money constrain him, and his own vision can occasionally collide with his creation's fanbase. Not to mention a competitive scene growing in ize and influence around the globe.

But responsibilities aside, how do I think SSB4 fares?

In short, pretty darn well.

Any Smash Bros. fan will tell you what we all look forward to the most; people want to see character get to duke it out against the likes of Mario, Samus, Link, and Pikachu. With this in mind, I can confidently say SSB4 is beyond a good game. It's a game we'll never forget. Sonic, PAC-MAN, Ryu, Cloud, Robin, Little Mac, Greninja, Lucas, Mewtwo, Mega Man, the newcomer list goes on and on. Sakurai said he wanted to deliver the best character fighting game, and that's where most of his focus went.

Unfortunately other game modes, whether due to split development or lack of time, don't quite measure up to the rest of the series. Break the Targets and Traditional Classic Mode are gone, and their replacements feel not as well crafted.

Is it disappointing? Sure. Do I understand why it's that way? Absolutely!

We're playing what may be the greatest crossover that gaming's ever seen. Maybe in the past, Sakurai's tried to balance original content and fighter content, but SSB4 goes full throttle with characters. If this was Full Metal Alchemist, we'd have to give something to get something else in return (equivalent exchange). I feel that Sakurai had to "sacrifice" more of his own content that originates in his creation for a result that pleases more fans, and I'll applaud him for it.

Considering how much time we spend discussing characters, and how bitter or joyous our responses can be, I think ol' Sakurai's hit the nail on the head this time. We asked for a crossover game where we could fight with characters we love through experience, nostalgia, and empathy... And we got that and beyond.

I, for one, would be a different person if not for gaming and its fanbase. In some alternate reality where Young!MaskO' never picked up that N64 controller, I would not be on this site, typing my mind to complete strangers who share a hobby. I shudder to image such a world.

I'm looking forward, along with the rest of you, to February. Thanks for helping to make these past years some of the craziest and fun I've ever had!

 

[Oasis Dealer]

So, after seeing some discussion on the topic, it just came to me how bad it's going to be a FE fan next Smash game (whenever that happens).

You'll have people saying Lucina should be cut because "she's a clone, can"t change her, demote to an alt". You'll have people hoping that Roy makes his return (Guy has it hard enough). People will discuss if Robin or Corrin will be "replaced". And the worse part is if you so much as even discuss a new FE character.

I'm expecting possibly one other FE game to come out before the next Smash game. If one so happens to come out, there will most likely be a character from that game that people will want (Possibly because of love for the character or what they could bring to the table). However, because of the 6 FE characters we have, people will shoot the idea down because we already have too much. Which then begs the question: If Smash continues on for years to come, and new FE games come out, should we not add anymore characters from the series simply because we "already have enough"? I understand adding characters from other series (Even Sakurai showed his thoughts on adding yet another FE character), but if the character is well received and wanted, then I don't see no reason to add them.

I also hope Greninja fans don't go through the same problem Lucario went through. Guessing a gen 7 (Somehow even a gen 8) is pretty likely, but you know there's going to be people who will bring up how they should replace Greninja.

 

[Strofirko]

http://personacentral.com/genei-ibun-roku-fe-debuts-with-poor-sales-in-japan/

Hoooly yikes.

That article tries too hard.

 

[Shroob]

http://personacentral.com/genei-ibun-roku-fe-debuts-with-poor-sales-in-japan/

Hoooly yikes.

Did no one see this coming? It's soo weeb that not even Japan wants it.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

http://personacentral.com/genei-ibun-roku-fe-debuts-with-poor-sales-in-japan/

Hoooly yikes.

Welp, that was expected lol...

I kind of do want this game to do decently well though tbh, but not even Japan seems to like it in terms of sale ssooo... rip this game.

 

[Chrono.]

That article tries too hard.

Doesn't really change how #FE sold like crap, which is the point of it.

...I mean it sold less than Minecraft Vita like come on.

 

[Delzethin]

So, after seeing some discussion on the topic, it just came to me how bad it's going to be a FE fan next Smash game (whenever that happens).

You'll have people saying Lucina should be cut because "she's a clone, can"t change her, demote to an alt". You'll have people hoping that Roy makes his return (Guy has it hard enough). People will discuss if Robin or Corrin will be "replaced". And the worse part is if you so much as even discuss a new FE character.

I'm expecting possibly one other FE game to come out before the next Smash game. If one so happens to come out, there will most likely be a character from that game that people will want (Possibly because of love for the character or what they could bring to the table). However, because of the 6 FE characters we have, people will shoot the idea down because we already have too much. Which then begs the question: If Smash continues on for years to come, and new FE games come out, should we not add anymore characters from the series simply because we "already have enough"? I understand adding characters from other series (Even Sakurai showed his thoughts on adding yet another FE character), but if the character is well received and wanted, then I don't see no reason to add them.

I also hope Greninja fans don't go through the same problem Lucario went through. Guessing a gen 7 (Somehow even a gen 8) is pretty likely, but you know there's going to be people who will bring up how they should replace Greninja.

As a Fire Emblem fan, I'll be surprised if Roy or Lucina get into the next game. They're by far the most expendable of the FE characters, as the only two whose movesets aren't fully unique. Lucina could end up as a Marth alt like their initial plan for her was for this game, but at this point, I think Fire Emblem's characters in Smash 5 will be Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, and a newcomer.

And as a Pokémon fan, I doubt Greninja has to worry. This guy's by far the most popular Water starter now, and when his moveset is fully unique and he hails from a series that isn't falling out of relevance any time soon, I doubt he'll miss the cut. I do think we'll lose a Gen 1 mon, though--they're made more expendable with how many of them there are in a series that continues to move forward, and Sakurai has shown he wants to give more modern characters an equal chance. I think either Jigglypuff or Mewtwo will miss out, with a small chance of both being cut, and there'll be one or two newcomers from Gen 7 or 8 (whichever is the newest at the time).

 

[Chandeelure]

The Wii U is mediocre and that game looks really lame, so yeah.

 

[BandanaWaddleDee]

Code Name Steam
A game so American even the Americans didn't want it

Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem
A game so Japanese even the Japanese didn't want it

 

[Champ Gold]

Doesn't really change how #FE sold like crap, which is the point of it.

...I mean it sold less than Minecraft Vita like come on.

That's not fair to Minecraft Vita.

Minecraft Vita sold like that because no one has, likes or even cares about the Vita

Spoiler

But me....

 

[Strofirko]

Doesn't really change how #FE sold like crap, which is the point of it.

...I mean it sold less than Minecraft Vita like come on.

That article constantly bashes on my head that an entire new IP exclusive to a poorly userbase consol,sold worse than a stablished IP on a system with more than 50 million active users,that's fine.

 

[Shroob]

As a Fire Emblem fan, I'll be surprised if Roy or Lucina get into the next game. They're by far the most expendable of the FE characters, as the only two whose movesets aren't fully unique. Lucina could end up as a Marth alt like their initial plan for her was for this game, but at this point, I think Fire Emblem's characters in Smash 5 will be Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, and a newcomer.

And as a Pokémon fan, I doubt Greninja has to worry. This guy's by far the most popular Water starter now, and when his moveset is fully unique and he hails from a series that isn't falling out of relevance any time soon, I doubt he'll miss the cut. I do think we'll lose a Gen 1 mon, though--they're made more expendable with how many of them there are in a series that continues to move forward, and Sakurai has shown he wants to give more modern characters an equal chance. I think either Jigglypuff or Mewtwo will miss out, with a small chance of both being cut, and there'll be one or two newcomers from Gen 7 or 8 (whichever is the newest at the time).

I have a hard time seeing Mewtwo or Jiggs cut. Jiggs has a perfect attendance record, and she's arguably more a Smash character now than Pokemon.

Mewtwo I can't see being cut either. Sakurai knows the fan demand for Mewtwo, which is why he was the first DLC character.

 

[Delzethin]

I have a hard time seeing Mewtwo or Jiggs cut. Jiggs has a perfect attendance record, and she's arguably more a Smash character now than Pokemon.

Mewtwo I can't see being cut either. Sakurai knows the fan demand for Mewtwo, which is why he was the first DLC character.

And yet Sakurai himself has said Jiggs barely got into Brawl, and considering she's the last unlockable in Smash 4, she probably barely got into this one as well. I wouldn't even be surprised if it came down to her or Mewtwo.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

http://personacentral.com/genei-ibun-roku-fe-debuts-with-poor-sales-in-japan/

Hoooly yikes.

I thought it'd at least do okay over there....

I mean wow.

Didn't it get good reviews?

 

[Chrono.]

I have a hard time seeing Mewtwo or Jiggs cut. Jiggs has a perfect attendance record, and she's arguably more a Smash character now than Pokemon.

Mewtwo I can't see being cut either. Sakurai knows the fan demand for Mewtwo, which is why he was the first DLC character.

Jiggs has been on chopping block before (you could even say she was cut from Brawl, Sonic being added saved her).

Mewtwo (and the other veteran DLC for that matter) are harder to predict, considering their popularity brought them back in the first place it's kinda hard to picture any of them getting cut again (but time constraints are a *****).

 

[Shroob]

And yet Sakurai himself has said Jiggs barely got into Brawl, and considering she's the last unlockable in Smash 4, she probably barely got into this one as well. I wouldn't even be surprised if it came down to her or Mewtwo.

She's only the last unlockable on the 3DS. She's available from the start on WiiU.

 

[Delzethin]

She's only the last unlockable on the 3DS. She's available from the start on WiiU.

Hm. I wonder which is more indicative of the truth...

 

[BandanaWaddleDee]

Jiggs has been on chopping block before (you could even say she was cut from Brawl, Sonic being added saved her).

Mewtwo (and the other veteran DLC for that matter) are harder to predict, considering their popularity brought them back in the first place it's kinda hard to picture any of them getting cut again (but time constraints are a *****).

Wait, so Sonic technically saved Jigglypuff? Huh... Cool. Score one for the blue man

Spoiler

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hm. I wonder which is more indicative of the truth...

Considering Jigglypuff got a graphical revamp, I don't think she was last minute.

 

[Z25]

I don't think Jiggs is ever getting cut. We may say the fan rules are all BS, but I am positive the original 12 will never be cut rule, will always stay true. Let's think about it, anytime there has been debate over the original 12, they have always prevailed. Ness was almost cut twice if Gematsu is an indicator, and yet he stayed over Lucas( even if he came back through DLC). This shows he is more important. Jiggs is always saved last because she can be easily made from kirby. They've done it 4 times already. It's second nature to Sakurai at this point. Jiggs is easy so they save her for last, it's that simple imo.

 

[Shroob]

I have a feeling that if Jiggs were ever cut, there'd be such a huge outcry that they'd add her back in as DLC.

 

[ChikoLad]

In terms of what I think of Smash 4 overall:

-The character/stage roster is legendary, as is the collection of trophies. They cannot top this without flat out adding to the exact same line up. I also think this is the best line-up of newcomers just due to the fact they all feel so distinct and stand out so much other than Dark Pit and Lucina, and for me personally, this line-up of newcomers had more characters I cared about than any of the others.

-Mechanically, I think the game is mostly the best Smash game, especially with all of the different play styles characters have. Customisation only further adds to that.

-However, while it's better than other Smash games in this regard, it still has bad balance issues of it's own, mostly in terms of lower tier characters who generally just have blatant problems that I can't fathom why they let them by.

-The Online while better than Brawl, still is not up to the standard it should be. Tournament Mode is just flat out bad too.

-The DLC seems fairly priced individually though altogether it's not really justified especially if you want all of the DLC on both versions. By the time the final wave comes out, you're already talking over the price of the Wii U version to buy all of the DLC for both versions, and around the price of the 3DS version to buy all of the DLC for one version. I don't mind the price of the fighters so much but I think the Mii costumes should be cheaper. It's especially stingy for them to charge separately for suits and hats from the SAME outfit.

-The single player experience is decent enough on 3DS (it would be terrible like on Wii U but Smash Run and the better Classic Mode save it), terrible on Wii U. And yes, that is a legitimate complaint since past Smash games, as well as many other fighting games, did it much better. I ultimately think most of the modes on offer are frivolous and don't add much to the experience (if not outright detract from it if you are a completionist). It just felt like a real step down to me, even forgetting the lack of even an attempt at a story/adventure mode.

-This is mostly a personal thing, but while I was much more aware and involved in the online community for Smash 4 (for better or for worse), it did nothing for me locally. I didn't really have many friends locally who I could talk to about my hype for the game, and I don't have anyone to play with locally 99% of the time. Brawl and even Melee to a degree (got it after Brawl but some people still played it with me), were the complete opposite for me. It's just due to life circumstances that I don't have anyone to play with but from 2008-2010, I ALWAYS had someone to play with, and when I didn't, I had the great single-player experience. I also had people to talk to and hype for Brawl with back before it was released. As a result, Smash 4's multiplayer, while superior to Brawl's in most respects (except co-op, nothing co-op in this game tops co-op Subspace), is something I can't personally reap the benefits from which hampers my long term enjoyment of the game.

-It contributed to me letting my "love" (don't take that the wrong way) for Rosalina go from a guilty, closet pleasure that nobody would have realised, to one of the things people remember me for, so...thanks?

-It gave birth to Amiibo which I both love Nintendo and hate Nintendo for. :V

-------------------------------

I don't think Jiggs' unlock condition means anything in terms of when she was added.

I mean, her main unlock condition is actually "Beat Classic on 7.0 or higher", which is something a lot of people do really early on.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the thing we need to come to the realization of is that Jigglypuff isn't in Smash these days because she is a "Pokemon", she continues to be in the game because she is an iconic Smash Bros. character and will always be relevant in the sense she's relevant to Smash Bros. history.

1. She's always the first character one would normally unlock and it's kind of, from a gameplay perspective, iconic to the series to unlock her that way. The history will always be there.
2. She, like Captain Falcon, got really fleshed out in ways never before like with the move Rest and her low defense and immense aerial combat, making her the only real glass-cannon character.
3. She also is the only other true flyer outside of Kirby, and I know Pit can fly, but not anywhere near like Kirby and Jiggs can and he lacks the aerodynamic capabilities they have, she is is needed in that sense as well.

 

[epicmartin7]

I know the Salt for and has relatively died down, but I wanted to address my opinions of the future of the two (although its mostly about .)

Spoiler

At this point, I do believe will most likely be a staple in the Super Smash Bros. franchise for years to come. Why you may ask? Well, she's practically a Nintendo character at this point and most of the Nintendo characters in the game are from niche series anyways (like Xenoblade and Earthbound.)

I do realize intellectually her franchise and character are owned by Sega and developed by Platinum Games, but the second game in the franchise was funded by Nintendo and exclusive to Wii U. At the time when the Wii U wasn't getting that many third-party games, she stuck out like a sore thumb and got tons of press from the Nintendo fanbase. It's almost as if found a new home.

I feel this has caused a really good relationship between Platinum Games and Nintendo which makes me think the franchise will most likely stay exclusive to Nintendo platforms making her a somewhat a staple Nintendo character or at least similar to how Crash was to the PlayStation. Not to mention, Sega does tend to willingly give out their IPs like they did with Shenmue III and Yu Sazuki.

Other than that, this makes me think she will be in the Super Smash Bros. franchise for years to come.

As for , well just have to wait and see...

So, what do you guys think? Do you guys agree or disagree with my opinion?

 

[Khoru]

3. She also is the only other true flyer outside of Kirby, and I know Pit can fly, but not anywhere near like Kirby and Jiggs can and he lacks the aerodynamic capabilities they have, she is is needed in that sense as well.

why the hell can't charizard fly

 

[DoodleDuck97]

Jiggs has been on chopping block before (you could even say she was cut from Brawl, Sonic being added saved her).

Mewtwo (and the other veteran DLC for that matter) are harder to predict, considering their popularity brought them back in the first place it's kinda hard to picture any of them getting cut again (but time constraints are a *****).

If Jiggs had gotten cut.
I have no doubt she would of been brought back this game.
Then we could have had a vet from each game
64:
Melee:
Brawl:

 

[Deleted member]

why the hell can't charizard fly

They designed him with Smash gameplay in mind, I'm sure. If Charizard could fly like Jiggs and Kirby he'd be pretty OP.

 

[epicmartin7]

Well thanks Keyboard Warrior .

This truly means a lot to me .

 

[Firus]

I don't think Jiggs' unlock condition means anything in terms of when she was added.

I mean, her main unlock condition is actually "Beat Classic on 7.0 or higher", which is something a lot of people do really early on.

I have to second this. I thought the time of unlock was only indicative of anything in Brawl because the last-minute additions couldn't be added into the main SSE storyline.

 

[Deleted member]

And to follow up my claim even further, I think the reason they kept her "hidden" in Smash 4 is that they wanted to honor her history of being the first unlockable character you get throughout the series. It's proof she's relevant to the series in her own Smash Bros. way.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

Lucina could end up as a Marth alt like their initial plan for her was for this game

I really don't understand why people keep saying this.

Sakurai deliberately noted that part of the reason Dr. Mario came back as a full fighter and not a costume was to not disappoint fans of the character from Melee. I'm not 100% on Lucina making it to the next game, but if she does, I'm fully confident that it will be in her own slot and not as a Marth alt. Same goes for Dark Pit. And, naturally, Dr. Mario.

 

[Fenriraga]

I remember how everyone was saying Jigglypuff probably wasn't going to return. I recall some people citing the ERSB Leak as fake with Jiggs coming back as an example of it.

Honestly, if she hadn't been cut 3 games down the road, she's not going anywhere.

 

[Wario Bros.]

Well, I just beaten Bayonetta 1. While a blast to play, it was pretty hard even on Normal difficulty.

And I'm not surprised that the post game reward is even more fan service.

Now for the sequel!

 

[Pazzo.]

I remember how everyone was saying Jigglypuff probably wasn't going to return. I recall some people citing the ERSB Leak as fake with Jiggs coming back as an example of it.

Honestly, if she hadn't been cut 3 games down the road, she's not going anywhere.

I doubt Jiggs is going anywhere as well.

However, being almost cut twice should also be a indicator for some caution. We don't know what SSB5 will prioritize.

 

[ChikoLad]

It's kinda funny how Jiggs was nearly cut twice when she is literally one of the easiest characters in the game to develop.

She's just a ball with little stubs sticking out and it's not like she has any complicated copy ability like Kirby to make up for it.

 

[Oasis Dealer]

Jigglypuff being an easy to make character is what saves her honestly. Most likely shes' gotten lower priority as time goes on, but they've made the effort to bring her back each time. Tbh, i'm glad they do, considering how Jigglypuff's moveset is unique in her being a character who focuses on mobility in the air. If she were to ever be cut, I could definitely see her being brought back from mass fan cry.

 

[Delzethin]

I really don't understand why people keep saying this.

Sakurai deliberately noted that part of the reason Dr. Mario came back as a full fighter and not a costume was to not disappoint fans of the character from Melee. I'm not 100% on Lucina making it to the next game, but if she does, I'm fully confident that it will be in her own slot and not as a Marth alt. Same goes for Dark Pit. And, naturally, Dr. Mario.

But there was also a statement that outright said Lucina, Doc, and Pittoo were originally intended to be alts of their source characters, and they were changed to clones because the dev team had a little extra time to work with (but not enough to create a fully distinct character). The way Sakurai said it, it sounds like Lucina was moved from alt to clone because it made sense for her to not have a tipper as her fighting style is less polished than Marth's, Dark Pit followed suit because it didn't make much sense to have him using the Three Sacred Treasures, and Doc became a clone because his fans from Melee would've been disappointed/annoyed if these other former alts became clones and Doc didn't.

That's what I've gathered, anyway.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Honestly with the amount of characters in SSB4, I can't predict what cuts will be made, how will DLC characters be handled? Will they be in the base game of Smash 5? Too many questions to ask.