Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[Guybrush20X6]

Well Team Fortress updated and every weapon tier list was thrown for a loop and thanks to there being a crafting space for a Holiday 2015 badge we know there's the Holiday Sales on Steam soon. Between this and the Smash Direct looks like the pre holiday lull is officially over.

 

[Luigi The President]

Pretty much what Opossum said right above you.

Fire Emblem has 6 characters. This is the big problem. It's not arguable characters are seen as more important then any other representation.

 

[Chrono.]

So thanks to a lengthy Twitter convo I just witnessed...

Do you guys think Cloud feels like an afterthought/uninspired?

 

[Z25]

yea i was hoping that was the case. burb kept saying it was a suggestion box, but it wasn't. now that just makes me angry. just wish king k rool and wolf made it in too...

I have stated this befoe, but I actually thnk that Wolf and K rool were more vocal then actual support in the ballot. Everyone was like let's vote K rool in the ballot! This died down after two months roughly imo. After this, it was anyone's game. In this case, Bayonneta. During this time Some meme character and Snake pop up( or someone unreasonable) Wolf support starts much later. To late for Sakurai to notice, especially since he was deadset on uniqueness. So wolf is shot down. At this point K rool support has declined and since K rool has no future, Sakurai eventually goes for Bayonneta.

While it's just a theory, I think from viewing all these polls it makes a lot of sense. You also have to considered online users being apart of the different big medias that voted on the online polls. One user being apart of reddit or smashboards, or wahtever else, can invalidate votes, if it happens often, which it probably did.

Also as PushDustIn stressed, all the fan polls would not be truly accurate or reflective of the real thing. There are to many things that get in the way, such as outside voters who don't vote on online polls. This probably contributed to a large number of votes, and led to "popular" characters being looked over as they lost support.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I've accepted the fact that K.Rool, Dixie, and Inkling aren't playable.

Not Wolf though.

Wolf not being in is BS.

 

[Opossum]

Fire Emblem has 6 characters. This is the big problem. It's not arguable characters are seen as more important then any other representation.

Just because something's "seen as" something doesn't mean it's objectively the case.

Zelda has all the characters it needs. The three parts of the Triforce are basically the driving force of the series. Fire Emblem has a cyclical cast, so more characters than any other means of representation is warranted.

 

[Retroend]

Characters aren't the only thing that goes into representation. People don't seem to get this.

The Legend of Zelda has five characters, five stages on Wii U, countless trophies, multiple Assist Trophies, tons of items, and Smash Run enemies out the wazoo. And a ton of music, too. This is also a series where the main characters stay consistent throughout the series.

Fire Emblem has six characters, two stages, the bare minimum trophies (playable cast+Chrom+Lyn), one Assist Trophy, no items, nothing in Smash Run. The series also has a different cast in each game.

I'd argue that Zelda's more fully represented.

i'd say most people would take characters over stages any day.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So thanks to a lengthy Twitter convo I just witnessed...

Do you guys think Cloud feels like an afterthought/uninspired?

Afterthought? Yes, as I doubt that outside of Lucas, any of the DLC characters were going to be in the base game at one point. Uninspired? Not really. Sure, being an Ike main made me play better with him, but he's certainly unique, the Limit Break aura being on Cloud is something exciting, as the opponent is always slightly intimidated, while in some cases, the Cloud players get cocky. It's certainly a fresh and new character

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I just realized how much influence Smash has for game sales, and that, from a financial stand-point, it makes A LOT more sense for Sakurai to put in more modern characters than resurrecting older ones that haven't had a game in a while.

My family is very fortunate financially. If there's a game coming out that I want, or an older one I want to try out, I can simply take some of my own money I've accumulated over birthdays or Christmas, and go out and buy it. My mom also bought most of the amiibo I have (I have a full collection minus the AC ones, Mewtwo, and Dark Pit) are just given to me by my mom for no apparent reason, even though I feel guilty and ask her to stop and let me spend my own money, but I digress. Anyway, I'm in a situation where I can go and buy a game simply because I want to.

When I started speculating Smash, a while before I joined the boards, I would look up random wish lists and watch Pizzadudemanguy's wish roster videos, along with a few others.

Later on, February 2013, I saw stuff about Fire Emblem Awakening in a Nintendo Direct, which I only started watching that January when I heard about WWHD. I've heard some stuff about that game from SSB4 speculation, something about some guy named Chrom, so I bought it and checked it out.

Later on that Spring, I believe, I got Punch-Out!! for Wii, because I kept hearing about this Little Mac guy, especially from Pizzadudeman. Then a bit later, I bought Mega Man 2 and Mega Man X on my iPhone, from hearing about Mega Man.

- June 2013 - Hype Train launched. Villager announced. I decide to check out Animal Crossing New Leaf. I also ask for Kid Icarus Uprising for my birthday, since I keep hearing stuff about Palutena, and I know of Pit from Brawl.
-February 2014 - Little Mac. I go back and start playing Punch-Out again, since I never finished it and kinda forgot about. My friends and I beat it at a birthday party.
- June 2014 - I ask for Xenoblade for my birthday, since I heard a lot about some Shulk character
- July 2014 - Robin and Lucina. I start playing Fire Emblem again, as I never finished it, and I was reminded how cool it is.

Now not much happen between Robin and Lucina and just last month for me in terms of this, mainly because I was already aquatinted with Bowser Jr., I never got around to buying Duck Hunt, I already played Pokémon, Mother 3 isn't in America, I still had Awakening to finish before I got Roy's game, and I tried and failed miserably at Street Fighter 2.

However, when Cloud was announced, I considered getting FFVII for my dad's old PS1, but did not mainly due to the fact that I'm already going to have a giant RPG (Xenoblade X) to play at Christmas time, and I have a tightly packed schedule.

I was already planning on buying FE Fates, but when Bayonetta was announced, I started to consider buying her double-package game for the Wii U. I don't think I would have ever considered getting Bayonetta. It just wouldn't have crossed my mind. But now I'm actually considering buying it.


TL,DR: Sakurai indirectly tells people to buy games and we do it. There's a big Nintendo Illuminati conspiracy or something.

 

[Z25]

So here is something interesting.

@StarForce noticed a discrepancy in terms of the trophy count mentioned on the presentation and in the game.

Here is the thread link: http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...-dlc-trophy-or-miscount.426228/#post-20617285

Something to note is that OP added a second FS trophy for Ryu on the list. Since he doesn't have one on the Wii U version, removing this gives a consistent discrepancy on trophy count of one between both versions, potentially meaning there will be at least another trophy added at some point in the future before, during or after the Corrin and Bayonetta update, assuming they drop at the same time.

Thoughts?

Actually I saw this debunked. The other four relate to Corrin and Bayonnetta's classic, all star, and alt trophys I believe.

So thanks to a lengthy Twitter convo I just witnessed...

Do you guys think Cloud feels like an afterthought/uninspired?

Wait what? Link or explanation?

 

[Spazzy_D]

So thanks to a lengthy Twitter convo I just witnessed...

Do you guys think Cloud feels like an afterthought/uninspired?

His move set and gimmick are great, but the lack of English voice and music makes him feel a bit incomplete.

 

[Curious Villager]

Fire Emblem has 6 characters. This is the big problem. It's not arguable characters are seen as more important then any other representation.

And yet, people always feel the need to bring up the items, Smash Run enemies and 3DS version trophies when talking about Kid Icarus representation.

Outside of characters (Which more or less remained the same since Melee with just Toon Link taking over Young Link's role and Zelda & Sheik getting separated) there's been a lot of new content included between both games for the Zelda series.

 

[Opossum]

i'd say most people would take characters over stages any day.

And stages are still integral to the game, as are the other forms of representation. Like I said, it doesn't matter that most people seem to think only the characters matter: it's simply not the case.

 

[Shroob]

So here is something interesting.

@StarForce noticed a discrepancy in terms of the trophy count mentioned on the presentation and in the game.

Here is the thread link: http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...-dlc-trophy-or-miscount.426228/#post-20617285

Something to note is that OP added a second FS trophy for Ryu on the list. Since he doesn't have one on the Wii U version, removing this gives a consistent discrepancy on trophy count of one between both versions, potentially meaning there will be at least another trophy added at some point in the future before, during or after the Corrin and Bayonetta update, assuming they drop at the same time.

Thoughts on what it could be? Maybe just a counting error?

Already mentioned Bayonetta gets 6 trophies. He only accounted for 5.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Like I've said many times before, Fire Emblem, Pokemon and to a lesser extend Earthbound, are fluid cast sereis which change who the main character is each time. But I can see where some of the contention is coming from. Marth and Ike are featured in multiple games and the star of the first and first 3D games respectivly so they got their dues. Robin was the main character of the best selling game and Lucina was an upgraded alt costume.

Roy and Corrin both have the stigma of being promotional. Roy isn't highly thought of in the FE fandom as he's one of the weaker lords and Fates has a lot of "GODAMNIT JAPAN" moments in it that the translation team will remove and replace with horribly dated memes. (It'd be like if every NES game got an NPC's dialogue replaced with quotes from an 80's sticom) That said Roy came back due to how well he was received in Smash and Corrin has a unique and interesting moveset.

 

[Schnee117]

So thanks to a lengthy Twitter convo I just witnessed...

Do you guys think Cloud feels like an afterthought/uninspired?

No English voice?
A distinct lack of Final Fantasy music?
Not even an extra trophy for Sephiroth or Aerith or Tifa?

Either that or SE were really tight.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just realized how much influence Smash has for game sales, and that, from a financial stand-point, it makes A LOT more sense for Sakurai to put in more modern characters than resurrecting older ones that haven't had a game in a while.

My family is very fortunate financially. If there's a game coming out that I want, or an older one I want to try out, I can simply take some of my own money I've accumulated over birthdays or Christmas, and go out and buy it. My mom also bought most of the amiibo I have (I have a full collection minus the AC ones, Mewtwo, and Dark Pit) are just given to me by my mom for no apparent reason, even though I feel guilty and ask her to stop and let me spend my own money, but I digress. Anyway, I'm in a situation where I can go and buy a game simply because I want to.

When I started speculating Smash, a while before I joined the boards, I would look up random wish lists and watch Pizzadudemanguy's wish roster videos, along with a few others.

Later on, February 2013, I saw stuff about Fire Emblem Awakening in a Nintendo Direct, which I only started watching that January when I heard about WWHD. I've heard some stuff about that game from SSB4 speculation, something about some guy named Chrom, so I bought it and checked it out.

Later on that Spring, I believe, I got Punch-Out!! for Wii, because I kept hearing about this Little Mac guy, especially from Pizzadudeman. Then a bit later, I bought Mega Man 2 and Mega Man X on my iPhone, from hearing about Mega Man.

- June 2013 - Hype Train launched. Villager announced. I decide to check out Animal Crossing New Leaf. I also ask for Kid Icarus Uprising for my birthday, since I keep hearing stuff about Palutena, and I know of Pit from Brawl.
-February 2014 - Little Mac. I go back and start playing Punch-Out again, since I never finished it and kinda forgot about. My friends and I beat it at a birthday party.
- June 2014 - I ask for Xenoblade for my birthday, since I heard a lot about some Shulk character
- July 2014 - Robin and Lucina. I start playing Fire Emblem again, as I never finished it, and I was reminded how cool it is.

Now not much happen between Robin and Lucina and just last month for me in terms of this, mainly because I was already aquatinted with Bowser Jr., I never got around to buying Duck Hunt, I already played Pokémon, Mother 3 isn't in America, I still had Awakening to finish before I got Roy's game, and I tried and failed miserably at Street Fighter 2.

However, when Cloud was announced, I considered getting FFVII for my dad's old PS1, but did not mainly due to the fact that I'm already going to have a giant RPG (Xenoblade X) to play at Christmas time, and I have a tightly packed schedule.

I was already planning on buying FE Fates, but when Bayonetta was announced, I started to consider buying her double-package game for the Wii U. I don't think I would have ever considered getting Bayonetta. It just wouldn't have crossed my mind. But now I'm actually considering buying it.


TL,DR: Sakurai indirectly tells people to buy games and we do it. There's a big Nintendo Illuminati conspiracy or something.

Smash is one giant advertisement, the fact that we get characters from obscure or relatively niche games is more than enough prove, Corrin's got an interesting moveset that's very appealing to the people who don't whine 'muh 6 fe' and Fates hasn't released outside Japan yet. It's most likely going to help boost Fates

 

[Retroend]

And stages are still integral to the game, as are the other forms of representation. Like I said, it doesn't matter that most people seem to think only the characters matter: it's simply not the case.

its not, but if they were given a choice they would go for characters.

 

[Kenith]

I think it's kinda funny that Fire Emblem "needs" 6 characters while Zelda only "needs" 3.
I mean, I like the Fire Emblem cast, but I really don't think a couple more stages or Assist Trophies is comparable to a couple more characters.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Like I've said many times before, Fire Emblem, Pokemon and to a lesser extend Earthbound, are fluid cast sereis which change who the main character is each time. But I can see where some of the contention is coming from. Marth and Ike are featured in multiple games and the star of the first and first 3D games respectivly so they got their dues. Robin was the main character of the best selling game and Lucina was an upgraded alt costume.

Roy and Corrin both have the stigma of being promotional. Roy isn't highly thought of in the FE fandom as he's one of the weaker lords and Fates has a lot of "GODAMNIT JAPAN" moments in it that the translation team will remove and replace with horribly dated memes. (It'd be like if every NES game got an NPC's dialogue replaced with quotes from an 80's sticom) That said Roy came back due to how well he was received in Smash and Corrin has a unique and interesting moveset.

Actually, some people noticed that Elise, the animoo pigtail girl in Corrin's trailer, behaves differently in the English trailer, making people believe that Fates is getting a few character traits mixed up to make it less 'GDI JAPAN'. If Soleil doesn't get rewording I'll be pretty ashamed though

 

[Opossum]

its not, but if they were given a choice they would go for characters.

And that matters...why?

Fans having a shifted view of things doesn't equate to "The Legend of Zelda is so inadequately represented." It's just altering reality to suit one's viewpoint.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

No English voice?
A distinct lack of Final Fantasy music?
Not even an extra trophy for Sephiroth or Aerith or Tifa?

Either that or SE were really tight.

From all the little touches they got like the Ribbon it seems like Nintendo WANTED to do more but SE was hard to work with. I wonder how long it took them to negotiate the Geno costume.

 

[Roaring Salsa]

Isabelle would be that character who doesn't truly want to hurt anyone but her clumsyness ends up doing just that. Plus she would be instant SSS tier because no one would want to hurt her

 

[Chrono.]

I just did some math and fun fact: Zelda, Mario, Megaman and Fire Emblem are tied for most amount of Smash DLC, clocking in at 4 items for each of the 4 franchises (2 stages and 2 costumes for Zelda and Mario, 2 costumes and 2 characters for Fire Emblem and 4 costumes for Megaman).

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I think one of the biggest disappointments about the DLC is that the ONLY Nintendo newcomer to get added was yet another FE character. One that not many people were even asking for.

 

[PushDustIn]

From all the little touches they got like the Ribbon it seems like Nintendo WANTED to do more but SE was hard to work with. I wonder how long it took them to negotiate the Geno costume.

Yeah I think Sakurai wanted to do more but just couldn't. Even when compared to Ryu, Cloud feels shortchanged. Let's not even talk about Bayonetta vs Cloud... So it's 100% not a timing issue.

 

[Shroob]

Yeah I think Sakurai wanted to do more but just couldn't. Even when compared to Ryu, Cloud feels shortchanged. Let's not even talk about Bayonetta vs Cloud... So it's 100% not a timing issue.

Think it's possibly due to FF7 Remake?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just did some math and fun fact: Zelda, Mario, Megaman and Fire Emblem are tied for most amount of Smash DLC, clocking in at 4 items for each of the 4 franchises (2 stages and 2 costumes for Zelda and Mario, 2 costumes and 2 characters for Fire Emblem and 4 costumes for Megaman).

I think trophies and new songs included in DLC should count too tbh

 

[A Distant Demon]

And this my friends is why i stopped caring for "reps" ages ago and now just look at whether or not i like the content.

Hint: for most of it i do.

 

[Z25]

Isabelle would be that character who doesn't truly want to hurt anyone but her clumsyness ends up doing just that. Plus she would be instant SSS tier because no one would want to hurt her

Imagine though if her entire moveset was accident based? Like she trips and sends papers flying from her side smash, her down smash launches either Bee hives or fruit randomly, she could have the pocket, etc...

 

[Strofirko]

I think one of the biggest disappointments about the DLC is that the ONLY Nintendo newcomer to get added was yet another FE character.

Not wanting to be rude,but I would recommend changing that recorder.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So thanks to a lengthy Twitter convo I just witnessed...

Do you guys think Cloud feels like an afterthought/uninspired?

Link to the convo?

And this my friends is why i stopped caring for "reps" ages ago and now just look at whether or not i like the content.

Hint: for most of it i do.

Except for the lack of Wonderful 101 content?

 

[Das Koopa]

Final Fantasy's lack of content is probably because Square had a very limited contract. We've seen that different third party character franchises have different "levels" of content and this just has to do with how that company wants their franchise represented. This is probably why Cloud isn't dubbed, why the FF music is limited, and why Cloud's alts don't have much color variation. I doubt Sakurai had the final say.

We've seen the same thing with Street Fighter's music and Pac-Man's embarrassingly bad color set. No Mrs. Pac-Man? Probably because Bamco would've charged a ton of extra money to represent her.

SEGA, unsurprisingly, seems the most lenient in this regard since they have the closest relationship to Nintendo.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Looking at Bayonetta again, she's got so much love and detail put to her. Her guns even have the separate names! This is Mark of Naga levels of detail, and it's on everything! I'm willing to bet that had Bayonetta been in Smash but without winning the ballot, this much detail wouldn't have happened

 

[Shroob]

Looking at Bayonetta again, she's got so much love and detail put to her. Her guns even have the separate names! This is Mark of Naga levels of detail, and it's on everything! I'm willing to bet that had Bayonetta been in Smash but without winning the ballot, this much detail wouldn't have happened

You kinda contradict yourself. A clone got a huge level of detail, but a 3rd party representative wouldn't?

 

[A Distant Demon]

Except for the lack of Wonderful 101 content?

Low blow man. . .low blow

 

[Curious Villager]

Oh, I've been pranked?
.....
I guess somebody out there loves me. c:

Square certainly seemed the hardest to negotiate with though if the more limited content is anything to go by...

 

[Chrono.]

I think trophies and new songs included in DLC should count too tbh

Well in that case lolfirememblemwins.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Not wanting to be rude,but I would recommend changing that recorder.

I haven't really seen anyone point out that Corrin was the only Nintendo newcomer, I didn't even really take notice of that myself until just recently.

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

Alright, who pranked me?