Super Smash Bros Uprising = good or bad?

[Lolzormatic]

doesn't matter if yoshi has his own little egg symbol his only solo games have him carrying around baby mario

What about Yoshi's story, Safari, Woolly World and Touch and Go? No Mario in those games.

 

[GunGunW]

what about Yoshi's story, Safari, Woolly World and Touch and Go? No Mario in those games.

Yoshi's most prominent appearance tend to be in Mario games, though: like Super Mario World, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and Super Mario Galaxy 2.

 

[StarLight42]

mario has 7 characters with wario (i assume) and yoshi, doesn't matter if yoshi has his own little egg symbol his only solo games have him carrying around baby mario fighting mario enemies, I think it's ridiculous the way people try to pretend he's his own franchise.


tbh I don't care about representation unless, you know, characters I want aren't included because kid icarus needed medusa or whatever haha.

It is ridiculous, but it is no doubt true that Wario and Yoshi do not count for the Mario series. If they did, I wouldn't even want them in the game.

 

[BKupa666]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I'll address some points that are inevitably nestled within it somewhere due to how stale and hackneyed they are.

"Uprising was Such A Good Game, therefore the series deserves representation on par with Mario/Zelda/Pokemon."

This is a joke, right? There are dozens and dozens of Good Games out there, new and old, some of which have received nothing thus far in Smash, some from entire series that have received nothing in Smash. Uprising should not be a special snowflake because it is arbitrarily singled out as having the Good Game label.

"Sakurai thought about Smash while designing Uprising, therefore any and all content from it is justified."

And? Smash running through his mind during development equals a blank check for him to flood Smash with content from one game in a three game series? Literally every other series under the sun has content that can be considered "made for Smash" if one only stops drooling over their own work long enough to look for it.

"He could just port stuff from Uprising, and be comfortably working with it because it's his stuff."

He could also port stuff from literally any other game on any other platform from which porting is possible. Also, really? It's a crossover game where working with stuff from a whole collection of other people is mandatory, and on top of that, how much familiarity does one really need to toss in an item or two, or a few more Smash Run enemy mooks?

"Stop complaining! Complaining is bad! Sakurai is go(o)d!"

No, you stop trying to squash dissent and write allegations of bias off as the product of some lunatic contingent. It's frustrating that one game from one series is arbitrarily getting more content than roughly a dozen bigger, more successful and more popular series, just because the individual who directed it also just so happens to be directing Smash. In another reality, it could be another game from another series he developed and subsequently favored, there could be another developer, period, who would arbitrarily favor another series, or maybe even (gasp) actually try to represent the franchises based on their standing within Nintendo. We're stuck with this reality, and a lot of us don't like it.

It's grating for DK and Metroid fans when their series has had such unenthusiastic and repetitive representation (jungles and lava/rotating stages, much?) for over a decade despite there being a treasure trove of unexplored content from them. It's frustrating for series like Pikmin and Punch-Out!! that are roughly the same size as Kid Icarus (albeit more iconic by far), yet have next to nothing in the game. That being said, I think the Star Fox fans got the rawest deal here: they were within sniffing distance of having a new game instead of Uprising, and thus receiving a revamped veteran moveset, a newcomer chosen and given twelve unique specials BEFORE her fanbase existed, six new items, as many Smash Run enemies as Mario, two Assist Trophies, a uniquely-voiced costume/clone/boss, a ****load of attention on the website, both covers, and in trailers, and best of all, a fanbase who, by and large, will defend all of this as if their lives depended on it. So close, and yet so far away, and now having to settle for yet another Great Fox stage and MAYBE a new Final Smash or two if they're lucky.

I think that about covers things.

 

[κomıc]

I like the abundance in representation for Kid Icarus Uprising (personal GOTY 2012).

But to be honest, I'd like to see more content for the Earthbound series.

 

[CodeBlue_]

It's grating for DK and Metroid fans when their series has had such unenthusiastic and repetitive representation (jungles and lava/rotating stages, much?) for over a decade despite there being a treasure trove of unexplored content from them. It's frustrating for series like Pikmin and Punch-Out!! that are roughly the same size as Kid Icarus (albeit more iconic by far), yet have next to nothing in the game. That being said, I think the Star Fox fans got the rawest deal here: they were within sniffing distance of having a new game instead of Uprising, and thus receiving a revamped veteran moveset, a newcomer chosen and given twelve unique specials BEFORE her fanbase existed, six new items, as many Smash Run enemies as Mario, two Assist Trophies, a uniquely-voiced costume/clone/boss, a ****load of attention on the website, both covers, and in trailers, and best of all, a fanbase who, by and large, will defend all of this as if their lives depended on it. So close, and yet so far away, and now having to settle for yet another Great Fox stage and MAYBE a new Final Smash or two if they're lucky.

I think that about covers things.

Ok we need to step back on not let our appreciation of a series get in the way. Sakurai implements the things that he is aware of. If he hasn't played a game, he won't know the nuances of it. You cannot put something into your game that you do not even know about.

Let's think about something for a second, are these five franchise on Sakurai's radar? Has Metroid, DK, Pikmin, Punch-Out!!, and Star Fox gotten his eye to an extent that Sakurai would outright play their games and look at what they have to offer outside of a general concept?

Calling this an injustice is very foolish and is based on two interpretations of the game. If there is a player that has played a series and has become a fan of the series and someone simply researching it who do you think would know more about the series and the depth it has? Do you think Sakurai went out and played every single Metroid and Donkey Kong game? Do you think he even touched more than three of them?

I think a series that he CREATED would have more precedence over them. I think it is more logical as a game developer to implement something out understand then risk something that isn't as popular then say Mario, Zelda or Pokemon. The Donkey Kong series sells noticeably worse in Japan than it does in the U.S. Just look at these numbers:

Donkey Kong Country Returns: U.S.-3.06 million/Japan-1.03 million
Donkey Kong 64: U.S.-3.33 million/Japan-1.09 million

Compare this to the original Kid Icarus:
Kid Icarus: U.S- 530,000/Japan-1.09 million

This also applies for Star Fox:

Star Fox 64: U.S. 2.78 million/Japan-640,000
Star Fox Adventures: U.S. 960,000/Japan 300,000

source: vgchartz

The original Kid icarus outsold both Donkey Kong Country Returns and Star Fox 64 in Japan.

Uprising's sales do worry me. I think it was due to rather poor advertising, the 3DS negative reputation, and the weird design. A third-person shooter on a Nintendo handheld from a series that is fairly obscure probably won't sell well, will it?

If this is about being fair, don't make Kid Icarus the target of your frustrations against how your series is being treated. That is a separate issue. I know Smashboards loves playing the victim in order to attack a series that really has no one to defend it (the Kid Icarus fanbase is filled with a bunch of idiots, I have to admit). But, is Sakurai doing the logical, if not safe, route bad?

We also have to consider the fact that the game isn't fully released yet. They could add more material for these franchises (although I have doubts about Pikmin and Punch-Out!!) later in development. Sakurai could change the movesets of Falco and Wolf or possibly add a newcomer. Sakurai could give us a recognizable Donkey Kong stage from DKCR (which is likely due to the fact that Rocketbarrel Theme is returning). Who knows what could happen.

But regardless, while your plea is justified, it has nothing to do with Sakurai's choices with the Kid Icarus series as a whole.

If you wish to make a specific concern for how an individual series is mistreated or how Palutena's moveset is intolerable, please do so without attacking a fanbase or playing the victim.

 

[BKupa666]

@ CodeBlue_ For starters, none of what I'm saying is intended as an attack on Uprising's fans, although I do think the people, fans or not, who go out of their way to shout down even the slightest suggestion that favoritism might exist are either ignorant or lying.

Anyhow, it's not even Kid Icarus as a whole getting an unnecessary boatload of content, it's just Uprising. Here are the vgchartz sales for Uprising, and you'll notice it's less than all of those DK sales and most of the Star Fox ones as well. I don't advocate strictly adhering to sales with regard to series content, lest we end up with multiple Wii Fit characters, but still, there's such a thing as overkill with regard to a niche revival of an obscure retro game. I understand that it's easier for Sakurai to just throw in his own babies instead of looking into other series for anything more than just superficial 'token' content, but don't you think, as the director of Nintendo's crossover extravaganza series, he should make the effort to do so?

I found a good quote on GameFAQs that accurately sums up my thoughts on the matter:

It's likely that Uprising will get more attention than the entirety of the Metroid Prime Trilogy, the whole Pikmin series, and both the Mario Party and Mario RPG games combined. Smash Bros should be about celebrating the variety of Nintendo's various series and how far they have developed. So much content coming from one game from an only recently revived series devalues that.

 

[staindgrey]

Also, I remember all Kid Icarus had in Brawl was Skyworld, Pit for characters, 4 trophies (Pit, Palutena, Palutena Bow, and Pit's Final Smash), and a few stickers. DK and Metroid had much more than KI back then.

Not to be argumentative-- I don't particularly care about this issue enough to argue about it-- but prior to Brawl, Kid Icarus as a franchise had two games, both of which had been made over a decade and a half prior to Brawl's release. There was next to zero fan demand for a Kid Icarus appearance prior to Pit's surprise reveal, and KI:U's development didn't even start until after Brawl's completion.

If one were to argue "exposure=representation", then Kid Icarus, as a franchise, is certainly being over-represented. But I'm not sure that that's an argument worth making.

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

I'd like to add on to my previous comment that I don't want it to seem that I have some bias. I do think there is a limit, and adding a 3rd character and the Smash Run enemies is that limit. DK and Metroid do deserve more content, even if I'm not a fan of the latter.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm reading the thread and basically most of the posts are just "KI:U is over-represented because it is the case under my arbitrary and superficial restrictions that I made up in my head!!!!".

And it's not fun. :I

 

[TerminalMontage]

This is to unclutter the discussion in the Miiverse Thread.
Everyone I'm sur eis now adhere of the KI Uprising upheaval this game is getting.

Lets quote some statistics:
ZeldaMaster said:

• Kid Icarus:
• 15 Smash Run Enemies
• 6 items
• 2 characters
• 2 stages
• 2 Assist Trophies
• Possible Dark Pit Reveal

Donkey Kong:

• 2 characters
• Let that sink in. Just let it sink in.

Thoughts?

I see it more like:

Kid Icarus:

• 2 characters

Donkey Kong:

• 2 characters

Items, enemies, etc:

• Who cares?

So I say it is fair.

 

[CodeBlue_]

@ CodeBlue_ For starters, none of what I'm saying is intended as an attack on Uprising's fans, although I do think the people, fans or not, who go out of their way to shout down even the slightest suggestion that favoritism might exist are either ignorant or lying.

Anyhow, it's not even Kid Icarus as a whole getting an unnecessary boatload of content, it's just Uprising. Here are the vgchartz sales for Uprising, and you'll notice it's less than all of those DK sales and most of the Star Fox ones as well. I don't advocate strictly adhering to sales with regard to series content, lest we end up with multiple Wii Fit characters, but still, there's such a thing as overkill with regard to a niche revival of an obscure retro game. I understand that it's easier for Sakurai to just throw in his own babies instead of looking into other series for anything more than just superficial 'token' content, but don't you think, as the director of Nintendo's crossover extravaganza series, he should make the effort to do so?

I found a good quote on GameFAQs that accurately sums up my thoughts on the matter:

I agree that there is favoritism. But I can't agree with you that this is overkill.

For Smash Run enemies...really? It's Smash Run. When it comes to enemies, I think putting in enemies from your previous games is ok. Some of them, I agree are stupid, but they all feel like SSE enemies to me. I think people are freaking out over the large number they have. The mode is overall insignificant when representing a series as a whole.

For items...ok I can see why you would be upset. The Killer Eye and Back Shield were completely unnecessary, the X-bomb and Daybreak were questionable at best. But there are only six items represented. That's not as terrible as you would think. Compare this to Zelda's eight and Mario's fifteen. Is it a lot? It's debatable. But is it overkill, not so much.

I'm not going to discuss Palutena too long. Using her to show to potential and advertise custom moves at E3 is a 100% ok thing to do. She was a newcomer that was made to show off a new concept; where have we seen this before? ? ?

Anyone who thinks two Kid Icarus reps is overkill is foolish. anyone?

I know your point that this is just Uprising getting the attention, but Uprising is the only game that Sakurai made, and if that wasn't made, Kid Icarus would be put with the obscurities such as as Ice Climbers and Pikmin, with little to no content given to them. We wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

Overall, while there is Sakurai bias, I don't think it is overkill and I can't stand all the Palutena hate that has gone around because of it. A famitsu scan has just came out and people are already complaining about her having twelve special moves again.

EDIT: I don't think this statement is a direct reply to you but rather my thoughts on the bias hysteria. You are 100% welcome to be concerned about other series not getting enough love, but that has nothing to do with the Kid Icarus series. It's kinda how Lucario being put into Brawl didn't directly cause Mewtwo to be thrown under the bus as a mere trophy.

 

[BKupa666]

@ CodeBlue_ Fair enough. It is worth noting that there's a limited amount of development time for all content, so, while Kid Icarus flooding may not be directly responsible for any other series not getting as much content, it's not helping. There are juicier targets for that sort of talk, though, namely customizable movesets.

Since it's now the focus of the thread, of course characters are far and away the biggest form of series representation, but that doesn't mean series content can't be explored through other mediums as well. Smash Run in particular looks to be maybe the most interesting new mode to date in the series, I'd hate for its potential to be hindered via it becoming just another chapter of Uprising. I mean, DK and Metroid get the short end of the stick in general, but at least they have two enemies in Smash Run each(?); other series don't have a single enemy yet. That's gotta suck for them.

 

[DraginHikari]

I guess this kind of thing doesn't really bother me much, I've never particularly care how much representation one series has over another outside of a slight degree with playable characters and even that is not particularly strong. Whatever bias Sakurai has for Uprising content, it's not enough to make me concerned in general.

 

[Snagrio]

I saw this on reddit. It's a good visual representation and should stimulate discussion.
http://imgur.com/a/OCfbk

Disgusting. There better be more then this come launch.

 

[josh bones]

Also, the OP is incorrect as we have a stage for, 3 enemies and japes.

 

[BKupa666]

Also, the image is incorrect, The Banana is a Mario Kart item.

The Green and Blue Kritters, as far as I can tell, are also identical.

 

[josh bones]

Also, the image is incorrect, The Banana is a Mario Kart item.

It's down b, so wouldn't it be a dk item?

 

[κomıc]

I don't see the issue with Kid Icarus Uprising getting the representation it is receiving. It was a critical success comparable to other Nintendo top tier franchises. Unfortunately, F-Zero, Earthbound and to a lesser extent Metroid are not. With the recent launch of Fire Emblem Awakening and how successful that game was we now have 4 playable characters.

As for DK, I'm positive we'll get more content from that series but really, it is a sub-series of Mario.

I am hoping with the success of Smash 4 there will be a big outcry for a new Metroid, F Zero and Star Fox. And please, speak with your wallets when it happens. I know I will.

As for Earthbound, I hope with Mr. Itoi's comments on republishing the series will encourage him to write up a new Mother game. Shame it'll take years for that to come out if he ever does start work on it.

The reason we see lots of items from KIU is because of how influential the Kirby and Smash series were to that game and how those items would fit spot on in the world of Smash. Plus, Sakurai is someone who takes pride in his work so this isn't a surprise. I'm not trying to justify it but giving my thoughts based on observation.

 

[BKupa666]

It's down b, so wouldn't it be a dk item?

On the Brawl website, it's listed as a generic Smash item, and in Brawl, it's listed as a Mario item. It was only ever given to Diddy after the Kong Duo mechanic thankfully failed, so it has no ties to the DK franchise, even though it probably should.

 

[DonkaFjord]

I think it is silly how people mention that they want stuff from the previous Kid Icarus games instead of just the last installment when smash for the most part takes things from the last/latest few installments of the series with throwbacks being the exception, not the rule. So of course the later and newer installments are getting the spotlight for smash 4 (One major exception is Skyward Sword, but even it is getting a stage and items, etc. and probably has to do with them being too different from their previous "Iconic" incarnations in Smash and not wanting to redesign Sheik yet again as well as Ganondorf.)

 

[ShrekItRalph]

I feel like most complaints of "Series getting over represented" break down to "this series that I don't like is getting more stuff from this one I do like". Funny thing is people say that we lack D.K content at the moment but as soon another character is announced there will be complaints about how there are too many Mario characters. People called out Sakurai for giving Fire Emblem 4 characters when the franchise has 13 games since 1990.

So in conclusion, opinions. ( although I do agree in this current state the amount of KI: U enemies in Smash run are over kill but hopefully they will be balanced out in the final game.)

 

[Hitzel]

It kinda annoys me that the poll splits up the "yes" answer to make the "no" answer look like it's winning, when it's actually not.

 

[ihskeyp]

In pretty sure Sakurai designed a lot of things in Kid Icarus JUST so they could be cool items/enemies in smash. Smash is his series, so he can put however many items from a franchise that he wants. To be honest, all the kid icarus items so far look really cool and unique, and I think that matters more than what series they are from.

 

[MBakhsh]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I'll address some points that are inevitably nestled within it somewhere due to how stale and hackneyed they are.

Okay, so first off, you've constructed a litany of terrible, terrible arguments and basically assumed that people who think that the KI content isn't overkill are so stupid that instead of discussing legitimate points, they are throwing these around. This is analogous to me asserting that SmashBoards wants K. Rool in because "K. Rool is a king, we need more monarchs represented in Smash," "K. Rool was in a game that came out once, he should be in!," "K. Rool should be in or 87 people might not buy the game and Nintendo would thus lose THOUSANDS of dollars" and proceeding to call everybody stupid for wanting K. Rool in. Why not address some of the more valid discussion instead of assuming that this is the case?

Kid Icarus is in very much in a similar boat to Mother in Brawl, having two characters and an oddly high amount of focus in the story mode. Nobody complained about that. But it just so happened to be there. Why? Maybe because Sakurai simply thought that this content made the game more interesting, and not everything will be exactly proportional to importance/sales in the end, even if you are actively trying. Content won't be shoehorned in nor will content be overlooked just to create a perfect balance anyway.

There's also the crushing problem that some franchises are not very easy to incorporate some kinds of content into, so they may not get as much as they should. "Game & Watch hardly ever gets any music in these games, SAKURAI HATES GAME AND WATCH!" Likewise, for Metroid characters, sure you can add Ridley who in all fairness is not too unlikely at this point, but after that who the hell is there? Do you really want Adam Malkovich running around telling the other characters that they aren't authorized to use their specials? We have Dark Samus, Ridley, Mother Brain, Metroids, and likely Kraid in some form in this game, all with significant roles. Now I'm not very knowledgeable on the series, but I've hardly ever heard any other names dropped. Uhh...Sylux? Yeah, that's all I got. Conversely, as you've seen, Kid Icarus clearly has a lot of viable content. Hell, it's even still got plenty of viable characters! People have been screaming about Hades, Medusa, and Dark Pit. You can also compare it to Mother, which could potentially have Ninten, Jeff, Paula, Poo, Giygas, Porky, and Claus. Will any of these characters be added? Almost certainly not. But does Ridley, a character Sakurai didn't even consider during Brawl's development, have a chance? Definitely.

Most importantly...WE HAVEN'T SEEN EVERYTHING YET! There is likely a large amount of DK/Metroid content we haven't seen, and while it still might be a little underwhelming as in past games, it's likely going to be much more than what we've seen so far. For all we know, we've may have seen almost every piece of KI content (minus trophies) in the game, so there's no reason to go ballistic right now. Other series may still have more enemies in Smash Run, and even if they don't...why does it matter? Saying there's KI favoritism because KI has too many enemies is like saying that Brawl had Metroid favoritism because Metroid had two of the five series bosses in the SSE. "Welp, why no Zelda boss??? Zelda is way bigger and more significant than Metroid!"

Oh, and you wrote off the people asking you to please stop complaining as essentially being yes-men to Sakurai. As somebody who is highly unsatisfied with the overall set of newcomers so far and has not played five seconds of a KI game, I will say this:
Please stop complaining. I don't think I've seen you do anything but around here, and Sakurai is not a worthless **** if he doesn't make K. Rool and Ridley playable, no matter how much you insist that that's not actually your opinion.

 

[BKupa666]

Okay, so first off, you've constructed a litany of terrible, terrible arguments and basically assumed that people who think that the KI content isn't overkill are so stupid that instead of discussing legitimate points, they are throwing these around. This is analogous to me asserting that SmashBoards wants K. Rool in because "K. Rool is a king, we need more monarchs represented in Smash," "K. Rool was in a game that came out once, he should be in!," "K. Rool should be in or 87 people might not buy the game and Nintendo would thus lose THOUSANDS of dollars" and proceeding to call everybody stupid for wanting K. Rool in. Why not address some of the more valid discussion instead of assuming that this is the case?

Kid Icarus is in very much in a similar boat to Mother in Brawl, having two characters and an oddly high amount of focus in the story mode. Nobody complained about that. But it just so happened to be there. Why? Maybe because Sakurai simply thought that this content made the game more interesting, and not everything will be exactly proportional to importance/sales in the end, even if you are actively trying. Content won't be shoehorned in nor will content be overlooked just to create a perfect balance anyway.

There's also the crushing problem that some franchises are not very easy to incorporate some kinds of content into, so they may not get as much as they should. "Game & Watch hardly ever gets any music in these games, SAKURAI HATES GAME AND WATCH!" Likewise, for Metroid characters, sure you can add Ridley who in all fairness is not too unlikely at this point, but after that who the hell is there? Do you really want Adam Malkovich running around telling the other characters that they aren't authorized to use their specials? We have Dark Samus, Ridley, Mother Brain, Metroids, and likely Kraid in some form in this game, all with significant roles. Now I'm not very knowledgeable on the series, but I've hardly ever heard any other names dropped. Uhh...Sylux? Yeah, that's all I got. Conversely, as you've seen, Kid Icarus clearly has a lot of viable content. Hell, it's even still got plenty of viable characters! People have been screaming about Hades, Medusa, and Dark Pit. You can also compare it to Mother, which could potentially have Ninten, Jeff, Paula, Poo, Giygas, Porky, and Claus. Will any of these characters be added? Almost certainly not. But does Ridley, a character Sakurai didn't even consider during Brawl's development, have a chance? Definitely.

Most importantly...WE HAVEN'T SEEN EVERYTHING YET! There is likely a large amount of DK/Metroid content we haven't seen, and while it still might be a little underwhelming as in past games, it's likely going to be much more than what we've seen so far. For all we know, we've may have seen almost every piece of KI content (minus trophies) in the game, so there's no reason to go ballistic right now. Other series may still have more enemies in Smash Run, and even if they don't...why does it matter? Saying there's KI favoritism because KI has too many enemies is like saying that Brawl had Metroid favoritism because Metroid had two of the five series bosses in the SSE. "Welp, why no Zelda boss??? Zelda is way bigger and more significant than Metroid!"

Oh, and you wrote off the people asking you to please stop complaining as essentially being yes-men to Sakurai. As somebody who is highly unsatisfied with the overall set of newcomers so far and has not played five seconds of a KI game, I will say this:
Please stop complaining. I don't think I've seen you do anything but around here, and Sakurai is not a worthless **** if he doesn't make K. Rool and Ridley playable, no matter how much you insist that that's not actually your opinion.

Addressing in bulletpoints:

--I addressed points I saw or knew existed, not claiming to comprehensively cover every single stance of every single person okay with this much Uprising content. I will say that I see the bad ones way more often than the good ones, but apologies if you think I've misrepresented the. . ."pro-all of this Uprising content" group(?).
--Mother got a new character, a boss, and a new item, which you could argue as pushing it for a three game franchise, but it's far less egregious. Also, the story focus complaints largely went to Kirby, Sakurai's original baby.
--Series content is one big package, so that's where you see series with few viable/important characters (Metroid) getting multiple ATs, or retro series like G&W getting little to none. Some series that can boast great all-around content, like DK, barely get a chance to shine, while others, mostly those that Sakurai either has developed for (Kirby, Uprising) or that he especially likes (Fire Emblem) do. That understandably upsets DK fans, among others.
--Fair enough. People are conditioned to not expect much new content from those series after Brawl, but fingers crossed everyone will be proven wrong this time.
--Ridley being 1/5 of the SSE bosses was likely okay by most because, one, it's Ridley, and two, there were so few actual Nintendo enemies in the mode to begin with.
--Not all "OMG COMPLAINTS ARE BAD" people are Sakurai sycophants, but a LOT of Sakurai sycophants are "OMG COMPLAINTS ARE BAD" people. The mindset as a whole is toxic, stifling legitimate discussion in an attempt to create this 'happy happy happy' community where everything we get is literally the bestest thing we could have gotten, and to dare suggest anything different is sacrilegious. I do do everything I can to push back against this mindset by pointing out areas I could see improvements being made, rather than piling on one more 'OMG SO GOOD' comment on top of hundreds of others.
--Heh, how rich of you to tell me I'm misrepresenting the stances of people when you throw in that doozy at the end there about my views on K. Rool and Ridley. I think it would be a stupid mistake for Sakurai to leave either off of the roster, but their absence by no means invalidates the positive things he's done for these games, makes him whatever insult you censored above, makes him incompetent, or anything of that sort.

If you hate everything that Sakurai is doing with the game that HE is developing, don't buy it. Simple as that. Complaining won't get you anywhere, it's pointless.
Sakurai may be biased, but guess what!? Sakurai is spending around an entire 2 years if his life to produce this video game for Nintendo fans. He can put what he wants in.

You're strawmanning even worse than he did. Some complaints certainly did get the community somewhere. . .why do you think we don't have tripping anymore? Why do you think the game is being designed as a middleground between Melee and Brawl? "He can put what he wants in," and people who don't like what he puts in can let it be known that they'd prefer he put something else in. Wa wa friggin' wee wa.

I have nothing new to add on this matter, and pretty much anything else I'd post in this thread would be responses to off-topic personal allegations, so if anyone wishes to continue those, take it to my PM box.

 

[ihskeyp]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I'll address some points that are inevitably nestled within it somewhere due to how stale and hackneyed they are.

"Uprising was Such A Good Game, therefore the series deserves representation on par with Mario/Zelda/Pokemon."

This is a joke, right? There are dozens and dozens of Good Games out there, new and old, some of which have received nothing thus far in Smash, some from entire series that have received nothing in Smash. Uprising should not be a special snowflake because it is arbitrarily singled out as having the Good Game label.

"Sakurai thought about Smash while designing Uprising, therefore any and all content from it is justified."

And? Smash running through his mind during development equals a blank check for him to flood Smash with content from one game in a three game series? Literally every other series under the sun has content that can be considered "made for Smash" if one only stops drooling over their own work long enough to look for it.

"He could just port stuff from Uprising, and be comfortably working with it because it's his stuff."

He could also port stuff from literally any other game on any other platform from which porting is possible. Also, really? It's a crossover game where working with stuff from a whole collection of other people is mandatory, and on top of that, how much familiarity does one really need to toss in an item or two, or a few more Smash Run enemy mooks?

"Stop complaining! Complaining is bad! Sakurai is go(o)d!"

No, you stop trying to squash dissent and write allegations of bias off as the product of some lunatic contingent. It's frustrating that one game from one series is arbitrarily getting more content than roughly a dozen bigger, more successful and more popular series, just because the individual who directed it also just so happens to be directing Smash. In another reality, it could be another game from another series he developed and subsequently favored, there could be another developer, period, who would arbitrarily favor another series, or maybe even (gasp) actually try to represent the franchises based on their standing within Nintendo. We're stuck with this reality, and a lot of us don't like it.

It's grating for DK and Metroid fans when their series has had such unenthusiastic and repetitive representation (jungles and lava/rotating stages, much?) for over a decade despite there being a treasure trove of unexplored content from them. It's frustrating for series like Pikmin and Punch-Out!! that are roughly the same size as Kid Icarus (albeit more iconic by far), yet have next to nothing in the game. That being said, I think the Star Fox fans got the rawest deal here: they were within sniffing distance of having a new game instead of Uprising, and thus receiving a revamped veteran moveset, a newcomer chosen and given twelve unique specials BEFORE her fanbase existed, six new items, as many Smash Run enemies as Mario, two Assist Trophies, a uniquely-voiced costume/clone/boss, a ****load of attention on the website, both covers, and in trailers, and best of all, a fanbase who, by and large, will defend all of this as if their lives depended on it. So close, and yet so far away, and now having to settle for yet another Great Fox stage and MAYBE a new Final Smash or two if they're lucky.

I think that about covers things.

If you hate everything that Sakurai is doing with the game that HE is developing, don't buy it. Simple as that. Complaining won't get you anywhere, it's pointless.
Sakurai may be biased, but guess what!? Sakurai is spending around an entire 2 years if his life to produce this video game for Nintendo fans. He can put what he wants in.

 

[ihskeyp]

You're strawmanning even worse than he did. Some complaints certainly did get the community somewhere. . .why do you think we don't have tripping anymore? Why do you think the game is being designed as a middleground between Melee and Brawl? "He can put what he wants in," and people who don't like what he puts in can let it be known that they'd prefer he put something else in. Wa wa friggin' wee wa.

I have nothing new to add on this matter, and pretty much anything else I'd post in this thread would be responses to off-topic personal allegations, so if anyone wishes to continue those, take it to my PM box.

I'm not 'strawmanning' I'm saying that you complaining about 'too many kid Icarus representation!' won't do anything. Do you REALLY think that this is nearly as big of a problem as tripping? Tripping was a HUGE factor in competitive play... Kid Icarus items and enemies won't be. Do you think sakurai will see people complaining about kid Icarus items and enemies and just remove them from the game? Because he won't, and you know it. This is a WAY different scenario than tripping was, comparing the two is laughable. Tripping was an actual problem, that affected the game in a negative way. Some extra kid Icarus items won't ruin the game for anyone.

 

[BKupa666]

I'm not 'strawmanning' I'm saying that you complaining about 'too many kid Icarus representation!' won't do anything. Do you REALLY think that this is nearly as big of a problem as tripping? Tripping was a HUGE factor in competitive play... Kid Icarus items and enemies won't be. Do you think sakurai will see people complaining about kid Icarus items and enemies and just remove them from the game? Because he won't, and you know it. This is a WAY different scenario than tripping was, comparing the two is laughable. Tripping was an actual problem, that affected the game in a negative way. Some extra kid Icarus items won't ruin the game for anyone.

Strawman definition.

Strawman examples:
--"You hate Sakurai You hate what Sakurai is doing because you say there's an inordinate amount of Uprising content!"
--"You're comparing tripping to said inordinate amount of Uprising content because you give examples why complaining isn't always pointless!"

Hope this is informative.

 

[ihskeyp]

Strawman definition.

Strawman examples:
--"You hate Sakurai because you say there's an inordinate amount of Uprising content!"
--"You're comparing tripping to said inordinate amount of Uprising content because you give examples why complaining isn't always pointless!"

Hope this is informative.

I clearly said 'if you hate what sakurai is doing' not 'if you hate sakurai'. I never accused you of hating him. And, I didn't misunderstand you about tripping. I know you used it to say that complaining isn't always pointless, however complaining about a mechanic that affects the game entirely and complaining about not liking some items and enemies that sakurai put in the game is not even nearly the same thing.

 

[josh bones]

Strawman definition.

Strawman examples:
--"You hate Sakurai because you say there's an inordinate amount of Uprising content!"
--"You're comparing tripping to said inordinate amount of Uprising content because you give examples why complaining isn't always pointless!"

Hope this is informative.

Tripping is a thing everyone hates, comparing it to uprising content is dumb as nobody will care as we play fighting game to fight, not stare at the select screen

 

[LancerStaff]

And I'm guessing you're just going to ignore that KIU is FFA-only. Even in Light vs. Dark, there's no communication with the other teammates, so it's still functionally FFA.

Competitive LvD and random LvD are two totally different things. Competitive LvD works like competitive Mario Kart clans, people have skype running in the background. You've said yourself that the in-game Pokemon tournaments are trash, remember? I didn't even bother with comparing them to random LvD. Random LvD is better anyway.

 

[MBakhsh]

Addressing in bulletpoints:

--I addressed points I saw or knew existed, not claiming to comprehensively cover every single stance of every single person okay with this much Uprising content. I will say that I see the bad ones way more often than the good ones, but apologies if you think I've misrepresented the. . ."pro-all of this Uprising content" group(?).

Okay.

--Mother got a new character, a boss, and a new item, which you could argue as pushing it for a three game franchise, but it's far less egregious. Also, the story focus complaints largely went to Kirby, Sakurai's original baby.

...How is is far less egregious when, in a game that aims to be even more expansive and thorough than Brawl, has comparable content (assuming a boss is about equal to a few menial enemies) plus a few items and an AT?

--Series content is one big package, so that's where you see series with few viable/important characters (Metroid) getting multiple ATs, or retro series like G&W getting little to none. Some series that can boast great all-around content, like DK, barely get a chance to shine, while others, mostly those that Sakurai either has developed for (Kirby, Uprising) or that he especially likes (Fire Emblem) do. That understandably upsets DK fans, among others.

Again. We haven't seen close to everything yet. K. Rool is one of the big hype-inducers and so his reveal is much more likely to be closer to release. Having four DK characters by adding Dixie, possibly even as a fully unique character, is far from unlikely. And Fire Emblem has three characters, the fourth essentially being a glorified alt with a couple of tweaks, and an AT and two stages so far which seems justified for a 13-game series. I'm not saying that favoritism and bias aren't in play here (the game is being directed by a human) but it's certainly not as pronounced as you're saying.

--Ridley being 1/5 of the SSE bosses was likely okay by most because, one, it's Ridley, and two, there were so few actual Nintendo enemies in the mode to begin with.

The lack of Nintendo characters only makes Ridley's prominence much less diluted. And contrary to Smashboardian belief, Ridley doesn't magically make everything in the world good just because he's Ridley.

--Not all "OMG COMPLAINTS ARE BAD" people are Sakurai sycophants, but a LOT of Sakurai sycophants are "OMG COMPLAINTS ARE BAD" people. The mindset as a whole is toxic, stifling legitimate discussion in an attempt to create this 'happy happy happy' community where everything we get is literally the bestest thing we could have gotten, and to dare suggest anything different is sacrilegious. I do do everything I can to push back against this mindset by pointing out areas I could see improvements being made, rather than piling on one more 'OMG SO GOOD' comment on top of hundreds of others.

You don't have to think everything is great; I certainly don't. Over half (well, as I mentioned I refuse to count Lucina so exactly half) of the newcomers are a complete waste in my eyes. But with a game with so much imagination, so many options, so many possibilities, not a single person is going to get everything they want, or even all of the things that they want most. Oh? Then why do people treat the word of Sakurai like gospel? Perhaps because they appreciate the things that he DOES do, even if he doesn't pay a second thought to what they'd really like most. This time around, Nintendo is going to great lengths to make as many people happy as possible this time, but even still nobody is going to view the game as perfect, so nitpicking at every little detail is just silly. If people are happy, let them be happy. I don't see why you need to try to convince people that they're entitled to more than what they're getting when they're already getting so much.

--Heh, how rich of you to tell me I'm misrepresenting the stances of people when you throw in that doozy at the end there about my views on K. Rool and Ridley. I think it would be a stupid mistake for Sakurai to leave either off of the roster, but their absence by no means invalidates the positive things he's done for these games, makes him whatever insult you censored above, makes him incompetent, or anything of that sort.

From what I've seen from you I would have thought otherwise. But if that's the case, then I completely fail to see why you're upset.

 

[Petrichor]

I'm torn when it comes to characters. I don't really want a third KI character (I don't have a problem with two, but three would be pushing it), but at the same time I would love to have Hades in Smash. Personally I would have preferred him to Palutena, but that's just my opinion.

Items don't bother me too much because we can't be sure how many of either we've seen. We've seen about 75 items though, so I'm personally not holding out hope for many more. Plus, the KI items all look pretty interesting, and when it comes to items, function trumps series in my book (that said, I don't think we really needed Daybreak).

It's the enemies part that kind of irks me. Enemies should have been a great opportunity to showcase series without many viable characters like Metroid or Pikmin. Instead we get a whole load of KI enemies, most of whom aren't really that unique or interesting. Personally I think KI could have done with just the Clubberskull, Reaper, Mimicutie, Orne and maybe the Souflee. The rest could have been represented by similar enemies from other franchises. That would have spread the representation around a bit more evenly. Chozo Ghosts instead of Flage, for example. Granted, we could end up with upwards of 100 enemies (we currently have about 70), which would be awesome, but it's hard to say how many enemies we'll get. There isn't really a precedent for it.

On the whole I'm happy with the game. I've liked all of the newcomers so far (apart from Palutena, who frankly does nothing for me) and most of the stages look cool too. I'm just hoping we'll get at least a more diverse cast of enemies in Smash Run.

 

[PlTe]

My pov on this whole "third KI rep" I've been hearing about: I'm a HUUUGE Uprising fan, it's one of my favorite games. There will NOT be a third KI rep. Though if there was one, I wouldn't complain.

 

[D-idara]

I'm finding it amusing to entertain a hypothetical future in which Sakurai reboots F-Zero and/or Ice Climbers, thereby flooding the next Smash Bros game with content from said reboots. Hey, maybe we'll finally get an F-Zero item. Or five. Or ten.

Then people will jump on the 'F-Zero being overrepresented' bandwagon...

There are several factors that I'll examine to show why all the KI:U attention is, at current standing, overkill.
#1 Kid Icarus is a lesser franchise. People harp on the fact that Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon get the most stuff, but here's the thing: they are the biggest names of Nintendo and gaming as a whole so it's perfectly natural that those three franchises would get the lion's share of Smash representation. But Kid Icarus is more on par with the likes of Pikmin or Star Fox if not lower, yet its got more representation then both series (with most of the contents originating from one game to boot).

#2 Sakurai's favoritism. Now, he's shown to be humble before when it comes to his own franchises in Smash, after all it wasn't until the third installment that we got more then Kirby. But in this case its a franchise that he didn't even create, but rebooted. There's being proud of previous work, and then there's showboating. Given that in the first trailer Pit was presented as if he was one of the original eight (essentially stealing Yoshi's spot), as well of all the extra love he's gotten despite his series being of a lower status I say this situation is of the latter.

There's a thing, though...Kid Icarus: Uprising was an AMAZING game, and when I say amazing, I mean OMGHOLYCRAP****STORMAMAZING. It's easily become one of the most loved Nintendo games (Aside from people who can't learn how to use intuitive, new control schemes), and many people want an Uprising sequel, so it's certainly a popular series that's on people's radars right now. Most of the content originates from one game because when you look at it, they could've easily split Kid Icarus' Uprising story into two or three games, the game's that grand and spectacular, it deserves all the praise it can get, just like Super Mario Galaxy warranted a rep because it's one of (if not THE BEST) the best games on the Mario series.

Also, Hades is one of the most loved Nintendo characters, so his inclusion wouldn't hurt, Kirby got a hero and a villain on Brawl, didn't it?

 

[josh bones]

Then people will jump on the 'F-Zero being overrepresented' bandwagon...



Also, Hades is one of the most loved Nintendo characters, so his inclusion wouldn't hurt, Kirby got a hero and a villain on Brawl, didn't it?

FIrst off aint a villian, kirby's more evil then him. Second of all, it took 3 games for us to get and , and was worse then the joke character, not the same situation.

 

[TheTuninator]

I have absolutely no sympathy for anybody complaining about "under-representation" of a series that already has characters and stages in Smash. DK fans and Metroid fans are sad that you only have two characters and a few stages? Try being an Advance Wars fan, or a fan of any of the other myriad unrepresented series such as Golden Sun or Murasame.

Don't really see the problem with KI getting some love. KI needed another rep more than Donkey Kong. DK and Diddy represent DK very well as the main protagonist and his sidekick, but KI only had the main protagonist.

It's grating for DK and Metroid fans when their series has had such unenthusiastic and repetitive representation (jungles and lava/rotating stages, much?) for over a decade despite there being a treasure trove of unexplored content from them. It's frustrating for series like Pikmin and Punch-Out!! that are roughly the same size as Kid Icarus (albeit more iconic by far), yet have next to nothing in the game. That being said, I think the Star Fox fans got the rawest deal here: they were within sniffing distance of having a new game instead of Uprising, and thus receiving a revamped veteran moveset, a newcomer chosen and given twelve unique specials BEFORE her fanbase existed, six new items, as many Smash Run enemies as Mario, two Assist Trophies, a uniquely-voiced costume/clone/boss, a ****load of attention on the website, both covers, and in trailers, and best of all, a fanbase who, by and large, will defend all of this as if their lives depended on it. So close, and yet so far away, and now having to settle for yet another Great Fox stage and MAYBE a new Final Smash or two if they're lucky.

I think that about covers things.

Yes, all those poor fans of series with playable character reps. My heart bleeds for them. Especially Star Fox fans. Only three playable characters in Brawl! Those poor souls.

 

[BravadoMan_13]

To answer the original question, I believe the representation for Kid Icarus in Smash 4 is fine except they are overdoing it a tad bit in terms of Smash Run enemies. KI getting a newcomer is a good move IMO. I don't think KI will get a third rep plus I don't see Dark Pit getting his own slot. He'll be an alt costume for Pit I think. Still hoping to see more content revealed from other series, especially DK.

Still gotta try out KI: Uprising sometime.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Lemme give my two cents. If Kid Icarus gets this much representation, then I'm hopeful other series will as well. Because as the game stands right now, we seriously need more representation.
If Sakurai neglects these series IN FAVOR of Kid Icarus then I'll be mad. But for now I try to remain optimistic