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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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kirbstr

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They should do unlockable characters Melee style but have a "hints" option in-game to help people know what they need to do in order to unlock certain characters. Maybe you could even buy the hints with the smash currency that has been pretty useless in past editions of smash.

That way the challenge comes from doing the tasks to unlock the characters, rather than having to mess around in all the modes for hours to figure it out.
 
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Tree Gelbman

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Speaking of Steve and his different art style.

I wonder if that's something they're trying to figure out about Paper Mario.

I mean he's similar to Game & Watch, but not really?
 

Sid-cada

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I hope you don't mind this being posted late, but I don't want to leave you hanging for questions.

1. "What kind of interesting things can you do within the structure of the game?" Is it referring to the character's game or Smash, because I think he already knows Smash's game structure. It makes me think that the second last and last question are basically repeating the same thing.
Basically this is a question of "How can we translate things this character is famous for doing, or interesting things they can do in their home game?" Almost every character has a few moves which they are famous for, like Link's spin-attack or Kirby's inhale, so it's important to consider this stuff when implementing the character.

Game play style of how they play in their own game, too, can come into play. F-Zero has a very fast, high-risk, high-energy game play, and so does Falcon. Much of Marth's game play is tied to certain game play concepts in his own game (counter attacks, being able to attack someone a max of four times, etc.). Kirby games and Kirby himself in smash is geared toward beginners. Things like these help to develop an idea on how a character should play.

Characters embodying concepts from their own games allows them to do things that technically aren't cannon to them, like how Ness can use PSI moves from his other party members because he represents Mother's combat as a whole, or how Robin can use Dark Magic even though he can't in the class he is presented in.

2. Should not "What kind of interesting things can you do within the structure of the game? And then if you were to actually implement that character, how would the end result be, how it works with other elements of the game?” be the next questions asked, with "How do those work together with each other?" being the last question. Finding the character's role with the next step being "How do those work together with each other?" seems way too early.

Comparing the character's role in game play to Smash game play structure as the second step seems kinda off to me. Would it not be less about how they work together, but whether or not the role they have is distinct? What questions are even asked to build up the connection of character role to Smash structure?
To be honest, it could be that Sakurai was just spit balling and not saying any questions in a particular order. It could be juggling several different questions at the same time, and we're over analyzing him yet again...

However, I think we can all agree that a character in Smash should play somewhat like their own games. If a character is given a move set which seem totally at odds with how they are usually portrayed, than something seems off.

For example, we could make a move set for Ridley that has a heavy emphasis on spacing and keeping away from the opponent. He has flight, so it's easier to run away and keep at a distance, and the fire breath and long arms give him great reach.

But that wouldn't be Ridley, would it? You'd expect Ridley to be a fairly aggressive character who is in the thick of fighting. He should have this intimidating presence, charging in. Though Ridley has the tools to be a zoner, that's not a fitting role to him and should be avoided.

Characterization is an important part of translating a character to Smash, and Sakurai tends to keep characters as true as he can to their games.
 

Guybrush20X6

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They should do unlockable characters Melee style but have a "hints" option in-game to help people know what they need to do in order to unlock certain characters. Maybe you could even buy the hints with the smash currency that has been pretty useless in past editions of smash.

That way the challenge comes from doing the tasks to unlock the characters, rather than having to mess around in all the modes for hours to figure it out.
Maybe just have characters on the Challenges board.

It was always odd that they list the conditions to unlock stages but not characters
 

SchAlternate

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To counter people saying that Smash should have every character unlocked from the start... don't you think having 70+ characters available at the start seem a little overwhelming for newcomers? IMO, having unlockables not only serves as a way to be "surprised" at who you might encounter (because, let's face it, the roster is gonna be leaked just a week prior to release, anyway), but it's also a way to ease in new players into not only getting used with a few characters at a time, but also give incentive to unlocking everything.

Also, to stroke my own ego.

SchAlternate said:
I wish character unlocks appeared on the Challenge board. I mean, they're about the only unlockable feature (minus a few menu options) yet to appear there. It'd be cool to have an easy way to know what the unlock criteria for some characters are without having to go to the internet and spoiling who the unlockable character is. Oh, and of course, you can spend hammers to quickly unlock someone without having to meet their unlock criteria.

While we're there, should a player challenge an unlockable fighter, but fail to defeat them, make their space on the challenge board "semi unlocked" (as in, you can see what the requirements are and you're able to open it with a hammer, but isn't actually completed), so you have a reminder on how to unlock the character again. And, maybe, also give the player the choice of re fighting them once they've been challenged, by paying a fee (of Smash coins) instead of going through the same unlock method again. Maybe make said fee increase with each failed attempt.
 

Bowserlick

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Ridley should only be unlocked through the Sma5h tournament at E3.

"A New Challenger Approaches" flashes on the big screen. The winner faces Ridley.

If the tournament winner prevails Ridley is unlocked for the game.
If the champion fails than Sma5h becomes another Smash game without a playable space dragon.
 
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TumblrFamous

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Back in my day, unlockable characters took time and effort to unlock.
Even if we wanted to cheese our way with playing a bunch of VS. Matches over and over, we only got them secret fighters every 100 matches! And by gum, we liked it!

Kids these days get their secret fighters practically spoonfed to them, and now some want everyone unlocked from the start now just for turning the game on?
-angery old man grumbling-
I am practically an angry old man though so this is a pretty solid descriptor.
 

Idon

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To counter people saying that Smash should have every character unlocked from the start... don't you think having 70+ characters available at the start seem a little overwhelming for newcomers? IMO, having unlockables not only serves as a way to be "surprised" at who you might encounter (because, let's face it, the roster is gonna be leaked just a week prior to release, anyway), but it's also a way to ease in new players into not only getting used with a few characters at a time, but also give incentive to unlocking everything.

Also, to stroke my own ego.
Nah, new players generally won't be into serious gameplay involving 1v1s on balanced stages and are more likely to just pick whomever they like to begin with anyway. Plus, putting characters behind a wall still guarantees that the cast number will be huge, just that some characters would be inaccessible from the start.

Unlocking characters in this day and age just serves to be a stupid artificial barrier to getting content you already paid for and as some sort of weird "Smash tradition" which people refuse to shake off.
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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Ridley should only be unlocked through the Sma5h tournament at E3.

"A New Challenger Approaches" flashes on the big screen. The winner faces Ridley.

If the tournament winner prevails Ridley is unlocked for the game.
If the champion fails than Sma5h becomes another Smash game without a playable space dragon.
Except for that last part not to bad of a way to reveal Ridley as playable for the game
 
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Nah, new players generally won't be into serious gameplay involving 1v1s on balanced stages and are more likely to just pick whomever they like to begin with anyway. Plus, putting characters behind a wall still guarantees that the cast number will be huge, just that some characters would be inaccessible from the start.

Unlocking characters in this day and age just serves to be a stupid artificial barrier to getting content you already paid for and as some sort of weird "Smash tradition" which people refuse to shake off.
If everyone was available from the start, then where's the fun in that? This tradition has stuck, because like it or not, if executed well, there is still a huge sense of accomplishment and pride gained from finally getting everyone. That's kind of like getting a platformer game and remarking that it sucks because you don't have every level available to you at the start. It WOULD be better for some, but if there was no challenge involved, then it just becomes far less interesting, IMO. TLDR: Unlockables have been a thing in Smash so that there's a real reward for investing hours into the game, and the feel you get when you manage to get everyone is unmatched (unless it's like Smash 4 and you can unlock everyone in about 2 hours)

Ridley should only be unlocked through the Sma5h tournament at E3.

"A New Challenger Approaches" flashes on the big screen. The winner faces Ridley.

If the tournament winner prevails Ridley is unlocked for the game.
If the champion fails than Sma5h becomes another Smash game without a playable space dragon.
XD if whoever has to face Ridley fails, then the salt levels would be critical....
 
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Imadethistoseealeak

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Ridley should only be unlocked through the Sma5h tournament at E3.

"A New Challenger Approaches" flashes on the big screen. The winner faces Ridley.

If the tournament winner prevails Ridley is unlocked for the game.
If the champion fails than Sma5h becomes another Smash game without a playable space dragon.
That's a good way to get everyone in the smash community to excommunicate a player if they fail...

Speaking of Steve and his different art style.

I wonder if that's something they're trying to figure out about Paper Mario.

I mean he's similar to Game & Watch, but not really?
Game & Watch style makes sense, as in when you tilt the screen in pause he will be 2D. I don't play a lot of paper Mario but I thought they made a joke in the crossover game where Paper Peach could slip through the bars. So yea I think in this crossover her would be a 2D fighter.

EDIT: Are we talking about unlocks again??? Literally it depends on the person, heck for me it even depends on the day because sure unlocking is fun but it isn't when I've gathered all my friends on launch day. Just needs an unlock all code, but that won't happen.
 
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T-Hell

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As others said, I love the concept of unlocking characters; getting that "A new challenger approaches" with the silouette and the alarm sound, and then having to defeat the character to get it, it's just too much of an epic feeling to get rid of.
 

Pakky

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That alarm goes off as a new challenger's silhouette is a staple of Smash. Along with conditions and little intro confirmations( like when Luigi jumps off of Mario in Melle) were always super fun to me as a youngster. Taking that away isn't a big deal (I guess) but it just cheapens the experience overall.
 

ColietheGoalie

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Definitely in favour of unlockables. I’m fact, I’d even be cool with only the original 12 being available from the start, but judging by the people complaining about having to take a couple hours to unlock some clones and vets in Smash 4, I doubt this would ever fly :laugh:

Maybe a free bit of DLC that would unlock all characters/stages? That way tournament organizers/impatient people can get everything at the start while others that enjoy a challenge can still have their unlockables.
 

Guybrush20X6

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Is Steve Minecraft related to Sans Undertale? :V
That's his literal name, at least according to Super Meat Boy. Or to say it in full: Mr. Steve(?) Minecraft.
 
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MamaLuigi123456

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You know how Smash 4 had you push certain buttons before the game loads for you to erase data? Why not have something similar, but it unlocks all characters, stages, etc.? Heck have it open a window so you can pick and choose what you want to get at the start. ARMS has already done something similar (albeit it's tournament-oriented and locks off certain elements), so it's not entirely out of the question either.

Those who like unlocking characters can still unlock them and those who find it a chore have the option to not deal with them. Plus, it makes things a lot more convenient for when you have friends over or for setting up tournaments.

Everyone wins.
 
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RouffWestie

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Not really seeing what's so epic or exciting about unlocking characters like Lucina, when she was already revealed in a big trailer during the game's development. I'm also never going to feel the same surprise of seeing Ness, Falco, and Game & Watch, since I've already learned who they are by now and they're obviously always going to be in. I'm happy with how limited the unlockables were in the Wii U version, and I'm even happier many of the previously unlockable characters were made starters in the Wii U version. If there were just as many or less than Smash for Wii U, it'd be perfect.

That's kind of like getting a platformer game and remarking that it sucks because you don't have every level available to you at the start.
Platformers are designed differently than fighting games. They're usually designed as a series of linear levels with individual challenges meant to get progressively harder as you move ahead. More often than not, having a huge amount of different playable characters isn't nearly as much as a selling point for a platformer as it is for Smash Bros. If someone saw Smash 4's boxart and got excited to play as all those characters, only to turn it on and only have 8 of them available from the start, I'd think there would be much more upsetting for more consumers. Hence why I feel the Wii U version handled unlockables in the best way it possibly could, and I hope this is one thing they don't change in the new game.
 

Knight Dude

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Hey, guys, prepare for me to ask another pointless question.

Lets talk unlockable characters and ****. I was pretty disappointing by just how easy it was to unlock everyone (may have well have just made them starters), and I've browsed these forums a couple of times, so I know I wasn't the only one. One thing I do kinda hope happens with Switch is that there are much more unlockable characters (and some other characters return to unlockable status, like all 4 members of the original 12 that were unlockable in Smash 64), and that there are much more challenging methods/much more VS battles required to get them, so it takes you more than a week, and, well, feels like an actual accomplishment. What are your stances on unlockable characters for this new Smash?
Well, the 3DS version of the game had some more of the roster that had to be unlocked. If I remember correctly Ganondorf and Ness were among them.

As for your main question, that's a bit of a tough one. Nowadays, many modern fighting games practically do away with the concept of unlockable characters, with DLC acting as a way to add more post-development. I certainly have a nostalgia for earning characters, so I do get the satisfaction of putting in the work. Personally, I think Smash offers enough unlockable content outside of just the characters that not having unlockables/easy unlockable characters is fine.

Tekken, for example, stopped having traditional unlockable characters starting with Tekken 6 I think. I know for a fact that this is the case with T7 and TTT2. Dragon Ball FighterZ only has 3 unlocks, MKX and Injustice 2 only have the boss characters as unlocks, and the last MvC game to have any unlockable fighters was Vanilla Marvel 3.

This primarily done for 2 reasons I feel.

1. We're in the Internet age, every bit of info is easily shared with everyone, at least if its something people care about, like a popular game or show. When trying to have hidden unlockable content in your game it sort of gets spoiled the mintue someone gets their hands on the game. Back in the day, it took months for something like the Hadouken in Mega Man X to be found, now it can be shown before the game even comes out on store shelves.

2. Fighting games are competitive and rely on their fighters, not many in that group are gonna feel like playing someone else before they get their main. Sames goes for Tourney Organizers.

Sorry for the long ass post.
 

True Blue Warrior

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1. We're in the Internet age, every bit of info is easily shared with everyone, at least if its something people care about, like a popular game or show. When trying to have hidden unlockable content in your game it sort of gets spoiled the mintue someone gets their hands on the game. Back in the day, it took months for something like the Hadouken in Mega Man X to be found, now it can be shown before the game even comes out on store shelves.
The problem with that argument is that the grand majority of the +5 million people who buy games like Smash wouldn't be the ones who follow Smash news and leaks online. There is larger audience beyond the internet fanbase and people forget that.
 

Nielicus

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I hope Smash switch has better original themes than Smash Wii U/3DS. It wasn't bad, but definitely had some weak moments.
 

MopedOfJustice

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What about individual endings for each character when you beat classic mode?
Is that not already a thing?
Or did you mean something other than clips and screenshots? Like "and then Mario makes it to the castle (something something another castle meme)."
 

Zeox

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Is that not already a thing?
Or did you mean something other than clips and screenshots? Like "and then Mario makes it to the castle (something something another castle meme)."
More of like Tekken endings, dumb short videos of what they did after defeating the final boss, usually more of a dumb joke than anything serious.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I foolishly went through the harder path with and without customs as Bowser just because I wanted to complete a challenge and gain Bowser Jr at the same time...also because they had trophies I wanted (and Master Core almost made me lose on my first try, which I was not gonna allow for Pimp Daddy :4bowser:)
For me, it was all up to Rosalina; :rosalina:. I forgot to mention who I used on my previous post.
 

Arcadenik

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still holding out on that one leak that had Crash and Spyro in it from early in the month. I don't even play their games, but I'd be so hype.
I hope that leak is true mainly because I want Captain Toad.

I also want that Simon Belmont leak to be true. Why can't I have both?
 

Nu~

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Honestly, if this leak were true, and we ended up with this, then I would not be upset at all. I think I could digg it.

https://imgur.com/a/2TgR5bw
I’m probably in the minority here but this roster looks soooooo boooriingg lmao.

Perhaps that’s what happens when you’ve never played castlevania or kingdom hearts, AND grew up with very few of the classic Nintendo games.

Like, the only Nintendo games I followed as a child up until now were Kirby, Pokémon, and Smash (and fire emblem, but that was later on).


The only newcomers that are even remotely exciting for me here are Medusa (because I loved uprising) and Wolf (because I mained him in brawl). Maaaaaaybe K. rool because I DID manage to play DKC when I was younger... but I never finished it/got to K.Rool anyway :sick:
 
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WaddleMatt

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I am not believing the imgur leak for one second. Almost anyone could put that together in less than 5 minutes.

Also where is Bandana Dee
 

Zeox

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I’m probably in the minority here but this roster looks soooooo boooriingg lmao.

Perhaps that’s what happens when you’ve never played castlevania or kingdom hearts, AND grew up with very few of the classic Nintendo games.

Like, the only Nintendo games I followed as a child up until now were Kirby and Pokémon (and fire emblem, but that was later on).


Like, the only newcomers that are even remotely exciting for me here are Medusa because I loved uprising and Wolf because I mained him in brawl. Maaaaaaybe K. rool because I DID manage to play DKC when I was younger... but I never finished it/got to K.Rool anyway :sick:
That's why you have to play more nintendo games, to expand your roster and get more excited about this kind of stuff, like one of the reasons why I played for the first time metroid and earthbound was just for that, and I don't regret it, now I love both franchises.
 

Gameboi834

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I have no basis in saying this other than being around for Smash 4 speculation, but none of these leaks are real. Some of them will inevitably get a couple characters right by pure luck, but none of them are real.
 
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