Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Fenriraga]

"I can't imagine how Bandana Dee would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him"

Hmmmm... what does this remind me of? Oh yeah, the same type of pre-Smash 4 arguments

"I can't imagine how Rosalina would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add her" - detractors before Rosalina was revealed.

"I can't imagine how Little Mac would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before Little Mac was revealed.

"I can't imagine how Pac-Man would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before Pac-Man was revealed.

"I can't imagine how Shulk would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before Shulk was revealed.

"I can't imagine how the Duck Hunt Dog would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before the Duck Hunt Dog was confirmed.

This. I was against the likes of both Pac Man and Ryu because I didn't see how they could be fun or unique, despite knowing plenty about each character. Then they both roll around and were handled in such creative ways that I no longer doubt Sakurai's ability to make a character unique and interesting.

And it's not like Bandana Dee has to use ONLY the spear. Waddle Dees also use Parasols as does he several times, and he could probably use a variety of weapon-based abilities from Kirby's arsenal, like the beam and mirror rod, yo-yo, etc. Could be the Gilgamesh of Kirby, haha.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Anyone else tired of aimless speculation? I can't wait to actually see the game and then we can talk about the actual game. We can't even talk about the actual game yet! Isn't that crazy?! E3 can't come soon enough :/

EDIT: Woops for not realizing someone else just posted the same sentiment lol

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Alright folks, I'm posting another roster. This one is a little different from ones I've previously posted. This is probably the last one I'm posting pre-E3, and I will update it accordingly once we get the new information, as I think having any sort of information will change expectations everywhere and for everyone.

First, this is different from my previous rosters for a few reasons. Wolf is no longer there, there are placeholder icons for newcomers and 3rd parties. This roster is a mix of expectation and what I'd like to see. What I'd like to see is based on a mix of expectation and gameplay possibilities.

Some notes:

This roster is based on a mindset that this game is being built off of Wii U. Characters have been ported over and updated with visuals, hitboxes, animations, etc. This is based on my mindset I posted yesterday regarding the timetable and the situation Nintendo was in, as well as looking to the future. I'm posting this before I had a link to the comment, but I'm sure you can find it. If you're interested in more about it, I can link you to it.

Other notes:

We know Inklings are in.

With Tropical Freeze happening and a new game potentially around the corner, I think Dixie could very well get added this time. She hasn't appeared as an AT or anything in Smash up to this point, and I think with her establishment as the "3rd Kong" in the series, I think she's got the best shot of anyone from the series. Next in line might be Cranky or Funky. I think K.Rool would be great, but he's been absent for quite awhile. I don't think he'll get into Smash until he actually shows up in mainline DK games.

While I do desire Decidueye, I just think he'd be a great fit. I understand the desire for Incineroar, but personally I think Decidueye gives an opportunity for not only gameplay differences, but visual as well. There's simply something that seems weird to have two of the same type on the roster at this point as far as Pokemon. Mimikyu is another option that could happen, but based on the suggestions I've seen from some fans on a gameplay level, I'm not entirely sure it would work as well as some think. I think there's potential, and I won't rule the little dude out, but I'm sticking to Decidueye.

Not really a newcomer, but I think Ice Climbers are pretty much coming back. I removed Wolf this time, and with him it seems to be a Roy situation with last game. Everyone kinda figured Roy would be brought back because of "fan demand" and it didn't happen on the base roster. I think something similar could happen here. I played a ton of Wolf when I played Brawl all those years ago, so I'd love to see him return. I just have my doubts.

I think Celica would make for a great character in Smash. Something about Fire Emblem makes me think Corrin was an early newcomer as we are heading into this game, with the final DLC being handed out on what seems like yesterday. I think the icon will change to be Female Corrin, but that's effectively negligible.

Takamaru could make for a fun Samurai-like fighter. I've always thought of him using Shurikens like Genji from Overwatch, in that he could throw 3 at a time at a fixed speed. There are other gameplay ideas, but I think he'd be pretty cool. There is the fact that Sakurai seems wary to add Japan exclusive characters, but who knows?

Isabelle. I get the sneaking suspicion that Animal Crossing will get a character in this game, and it's mainly because Animal Crossing has become a titan series for Nintendo. One thing that makes me reconsider is just the fact that she IS a peaceful character, and Villager does use a "kitchen sink" type moveset. But knowing Sakurai, I think he's given her a look and could probably come up with something cool.

Rex & Pyra. When it comes to Xenoblade, I think there are two main options. There's Elma from XCX, and then the dynamic duo of Rex & Pyra. When I consider the development of Smash Switch, and the probable visits Sakurai made to various studios, something makes me think he'd be given the option of Elma or Rex. Xenoblade 2 started development in 2015 and was released just last year. XCX was released in 2015. It is my humble opinion that the smart thing to do, to be especially current, would be to look at Rex & Pyra. This especially fits into the mindset I am following as far as the goals of this game. If it's meant to be more current, I've got a feeling it's Rex & Pyra.

Dillon, while from a minor/niche series, would be epic imo. He's already been in as an AT, and with a mix of spin dashes and Torb Turret use, I think he'd be incredibly fun to play. He's got the gameplay opportunities, but he's probably a dark horse candidate.

Spring Man. This one is a bit tricky because it's been hinted that nobody from ARMS is in Smash. This is simply another pick in the "looking ahead" roster choices. I'm not sure when ARMS began development, but there IS the chance Sakurai could have had the mindset of, "This game will release in 2018, what will be out by then, and what looks interesting/not so interesting". I think Spring Man would be great, and would almost definitely be the inaugural ARMS character, but this is probably my shakiest prediction.

The Smash Bros. icons and Newcomer icons are there because I will not predict further. I will not try to predict which characters will be easiest to clone, or which 3rd parties will be chosen, or what the "off the wall character nobody expected" will be, because frankly there isn't much of a way to do that. What I will say on 3rd parties is that I think Crash and Spyro are out of contention simply based on timing.
---
If there are any questions, I'd love to answer them. If you have any constructive criticism/feedback, I would also like to hear it. Chances are that the day of the reveal, I'll reflect and make another prediction. By no means am I looking to necessarily get things 100% right and seem like a "Smash speculah god".

 

[True Blue Warrior]

People who said that about Shulk never played Xenoblade.

But Connery, Shulk would just be another generic anime swordsman!

 

[Nekoo]

Anyone else tired of aimless speculation? I can't wait to actually see the game and then we can talk about the actual game. We can't even talk about the actual game yet! Isn't that crazy?! E3 can't come soon enough :/

I'm always tired of it. That's why I pass most of my time here joking around, debunking dumb argument or just ****post.
And the game was announed in March.

Imagine if we had like for Smash Wii U people just speculating right after the game was out.
And ultimate ****post thread for 1094 pages....

Oh wait.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Anyone else tired of aimless speculation? I can't wait to actually see the game and then we can talk about the actual game. We can't even talk about the actual game yet! Isn't that crazy?! E3 can't come soon enough :/

That's exactly what I wrote five posts prior to yours lol

 

[Opossum]

Anyone else tired of aimless speculation? I can't wait to actually see the game and then we can talk about the actual game. We can't even talk about the actual game yet! Isn't that crazy?! E3 can't come soon enough :/

When Smash 4 was announced at E3 2011 we had to wait two whole years to even see the thing.

[Cranky Kong] You kids today don't know how good you have it! [/Cranky Kong]

 

[Fenriraga]

Anyone else tired of aimless speculation? I can't wait to actually see the game and then we can talk about the actual game. We can't even talk about the actual game yet! Isn't that crazy?! E3 can't come soon enough :/

I'm always for speculation, but after 2 months without even a proper confirmation of what kind of Smash game this even IS, yeah, it's getting tiresome. Especially when so many conversations keep going in the same roundabout way every time they come up. Like Bandana Dee. :V

Just a month to go.

When Smash 4 was announced at E3 2011 we had to wait two whole years to even see the thing.

[Cranky Kong] You kids today don't know how good you have it! [/Cranky Kong]

Cranky would probably find a way to speedrun the trip to E3 without losing any lives, in under an hour.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

When Smash 4 was announced at E3 2011 we had to wait two whole years to even see the thing.

[Cranky Kong] You kids today don't know how good you have it! [/Cranky Kong]

I honestly didn't remember that and had to go and look it up. What an awful tease that was! How do I not remember that?!

 

[osby]

Anyone else tired of aimless speculation? I can't wait to actually see the game and then we can talk about the actual game. We can't even talk about the actual game yet! Isn't that crazy?! E3 can't come soon enough :/

It doesn't help speculation can be suprisingly negative.

 

[YoshiandToad]

When Smash 4 was announced at E3 2011 we had to wait two whole years to even see the thing.

[Cranky Kong] You kids today don't know how good you have it! [/Cranky Kong]

Also remind me how long we had to wait between Brawl's initial reveal and any more info? I feel like that was a LOOOONG time between knowing about Wario, Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Meta Knight and Snake and any more reveals...

 

[Opossum]

Also remind me how long we had to wait between Brawl's initial reveal and any more info? I feel like that was a LOOOONG time between knowing about Wario, Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Meta Knight and Snake and any more reveals...

It took between six months and a year for the next reveal, which was...


...Fox.

 

[Nekoo]

Also remind me how long we had to wait between Brawl's initial reveal and any more info? I feel like that was a LOOOONG time between knowing about Wario, Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Meta Knight and Snake and any more reveals...

What? You don't think that the wait was worth it? From the announcement loooong time...And BAM! Sakurai surprise us with Fox!
What a great day it was.

I got 'd

 

[BluePikmin11]

"I can't imagine how Bandana Dee would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him"

Hmmmm... what does this remind me of? Oh yeah, the same type of pre-Smash 4 arguments

"I can't imagine how Rosalina would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add her" - detractors before Rosalina was revealed.

"I can't imagine how Little Mac would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before Little Mac was revealed.

"I can't imagine how Pac-Man would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before Pac-Man was revealed.

"I can't imagine how Shulk would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before Shulk was revealed.

"I can't imagine how the Duck Hunt Dog would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before the Duck Hunt Dog was confirmed.

My reasonings for Dee's lack of substantial potential is not just that. You are reading and simplifying my points too much. :/

 

[Bowserlick]

If anything, Little Mac was the character spot that Takamaru would occupy similarly to Pit in Brawl versus R.O.B. in Brawl (an old hero from a dormant game series versus a character created to represent Nintendo's hardware from that era).

Melee: Ice Climbers (Software), Mr. Game & Watch (Hardware)
Brawl: Pit (Software), R.O.B. (Hardware)
Smash 4: Little Mac (Software), Duck Hunt (Hardware)
.

Going forward with this pattern for fun.

Sma5h: Takamaru (Software), Mach Rider (Hardware; there was a toy car)

 

[Fenriraga]

Also, in regards to the Geno conversation from before (I couldn't help myself). Can I see Geno replacing Cloud as the Square rep? Hell no. Cloud is WAY too significant of a character to gaming itself to be replaced, and absolutely belongs as Square's representative. I wouldn't want Cloud gone anyway, I love FF to death.

However, should Square get a second rep like Sega and Capcom did, can I see it being Geno? Absolutely. Yes, there are other candidates that fit the bill too. Chrono, Neku, a DQ rep, etc. But I feel Geno, between getting a Mii costume and Sakurai singing such high praises of him, as well as literally being a Mario character at the end of the day, has a very good shot at being the potential second Square Enix rep. There's plenty of reasons not to sleep on Geno, Relevancy or otherwise. Not saying he's a shoo-in, but his chances are the best they've ever been... But only if Square gets two reps this time. Which is debatable in and of itself, haha.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

As I pointed out though the newcomers added for smash 4 all reflect unique character potential. Robin and Corrin, although also sword users, had something else interesting and unique to them. Lucina was an upgrade costume so she gets a pass.

However, this is all of course assuming we understand what Sakurai considers as unique. Bandana Dee being the only spear fighter in the game might be unique enough for smash.

Hell, I'd argue Lucina could be declone just as much as her cohorts with enough ingenuity. Sure, sounds boring on paper, but a lot of her character stands even in her animations & Skills in Awakening. Not to mention you could use a lot of the dimension-hopping & time travel stuff. Certainly could be more of a variant compared to how Sakurai & HAL has been doing Roy.

For the sake of discussion, I would like to give my full stance on Bandanna Dee.

To quote the article on SG about characters:

"To be blunt, if I think I can do it then I can envision a concrete embodiment of the character, but if I cannot do that the character cannot be made.” This is a big factor. Of course getting permission and understanding from the original creators is necessary, but whether the image of the character in my head is dancing powerfully, or not. This is of the utmost importance."

I have been trying to think this way with Bandanna Dee, and honestly, I do not have strong feelings about Dee's moveset when I envision in Smash gameplay conceptual terms. Dee's move-set is simply not as sparking of an idea as Bayonetta's witch powers or Inklings using of ink. Even if he does fill in an interesting gameplay archetype, when I think of his move-set and his characterization in the Kirby games, it does not spark the immediate imagination. It is just there.

Would Bandanna Dee really be something Sakurai would definitely be strongly intrigued by conceptually, assuming that he lets the Kirby bias aside and actually prioritize this character over other newcomers? I do not think so. I feel there are other characters like Elma, Lycanroc, and Isabelle that would spark more interest, priority, and imagination to Sakurai than Dee. It could be argued that Sakurai could do creative liberties if the spear moveset does not spark some immediate moveset interest, but I feel that would be the case if Sakurai finds an important need to add another Kirby character for representation purposes. And in terms of Kirby representation, I think Sakurai is content enough with Dedede and Meta-Knight to not consider a 4th Kirby character for Smash Switch development. If there were a 4th Kirby character to be considered, I think characters like Marx and even Prince Fluff would spark more interesting moveset ideas for Sakurai than Bandanna Dee.

And I do take character archetype and moveset options into consideration. It is just when I look at Dee and compare him to other spear users like Azura from Fire Emblem Fates that utilize spears and have additional things going for her like being a dancing spear user, I would rather have the latter. How Dee utilizes the spear in combat is fine, but there is not distinct characterization in how he uses it that would make him very attracting of a fighter. Almost every Kirby character utilizes their archetypal/elemental power in a cool way, but Dee doe not use it a way that has distinct personality to it.

Meta-Knight has characterization of him being quick fast-sword user in Kirby whose personality is mysterious and is a daunting ant-hero to Kirby. King Dedede is a heavy hammer user with a mischievous, greedy demeanor. Bandanna Dee personality wise parallels and acts a lot like Kirby that uses a spear, and does not have much to contrast himself beyond the weapon. Then what I am left with is just a potential newcomer who could fill in a spear archetype and utilize those weapons in a cool fashion, but provide nothing additional beyond that.

I guess in general, personality and the given moveset in RtD not easy to dance around with several gameplay ideas is why I think Bandanna Dee is not substantially unique enough of as a fighter and why I do not think he will be in Smash.

Neither of us are Sakurai, so your guess is as good as mine as far as how he conceptualizes B.W. Dee's movement thru dancing. If it counts for anything, I've already imagined plenty of exaggerative & fluid motions utilizing his stubby rig. Its really not too much of a challenge with Kirby & Jigglypuff around, though what makes his expressions special is how his squatty, somewhat oblong stature interact with his spear.

His lightness makes him ideal for pole vault maneuvers, he could breakdance counterclockwise to his spear twirling beneath him, watch him pull off some Neo-from-the-Matrix cyclone twirls with his legs bobbing about, balancing & posing from different stubs atop the blunt end of the implanted spear. Yes, even the pole dance. Perhaps the spear is one big baton, and he twirls it about maybe with a couple juggling throws or rotating the spear around his stubs not unlike Fire Emblem Fates' Spear Master, or any other spear dancer of yore.

Sure, Azura is an easy transition through this particular movement test, and I do not doubt she would provide plenty of potential B.W. Dee can't wag at. But just because she's a dancer in archetype feels lazy & breaching against other characters in her packed franchise, or even non-humanoids.

Sure, B.W. Dee's special moves spell themselves out just by playing Spear Kirby. But this conveniently shoves aside his side appearances and then some. For example, his main weapon is actually an alternative moveset of the Parasol in Kirby Battle Royale. One attack that's only he can do is send out a rippling bubble of water out from the Parasol (after a spinning attack in 3D view too.)

(Compare 3:54-4:04 to 2:00-2:29. Notice a characteristic fidgetiness distinct to his animations too. Its only a generic Waddle Dee aside the Story Mode. Trust me on this.)

I could go on all day about his potential, from giving him the Megaton Punch, to the elemental effects of his spear a la Star Allies, even borrowing Parasol or Beam moves, etc. The Kirby fighters all have in common that they're not cut-and-pastes of Kirby's equivalent Copy Abilities, so why should Bandana Waddle Dee be any different?

I won't get too much into Bandana's personality, since I believe I've given more than enough fodder to distinguish him from a baseline mook or Kirby analogue. But pay close attention to how he acts in Super Star Ultra, Return to Dreamland, & Battle Royale. He's shown to be something of a shy, awkward scaredycat with a perfectionist streak. He knows his weak stature & anticipates it whenever Kirby or whatever other threat is going to interfere with him, going so far as to burst into tears in Revenge of the King. Kirby tends to go with the flow, whilst Bandana Waddle Dee wants to be left alone & will just follows his superiors.

Recall the length I went describing how he could animate. Have him seem wobbly or uncoordinated when he balances on his spear or slipping when he overextends it. Play with his expressions & have his eyes bulge out or blush when he lands a powerful Smash attack, or have him well up or sweat profusely for some taunts, poses, idles. Give him a smug face when he seems content or just appears blank when he dozes off on the job as an idle. There's even potential to give him a voice actor since he can speak at least as eloquent as Meta Knight.

Knowing how Nintendo has given us wonderful nuance to existing characters (Luigi's cowardice hiding a psychotropic dark side, playing w/ Mr. Game & Watch's confusing communication style & amorality, etc.), what can we expect from the Dee? Just imagine how funny & endearing it would be watching him struggle in the shadow of his greaters. Or maybe he's harboring a hidden ferocity that will allow him to kick the entire roster's asses two ways from Sunday? These could make wonderful memetic moments for the reveal trailer!

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Speaking of Pac-Man, I wonder if he'd have an alternate moveset (assuming such things are in the game) based off of Pac-Man World. He had a lot of different moves in those games that could make a good high-mobility moveset.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Sarki Soliloquy Hot dang, with you pointing that one little detail like "Have him seem wobbly or uncoordinated when he balances on his spear or slipping when he overextends it.", that actually sounds interesting enough of a fun play-style.

I guess the only issue I have now with Dee is if such a clumsy, spear-based play-style would impress Sakurai enough on the surface to get past the Kirby bias and try to develop him as a character. Even with me speaking on Dee's potential, how he feels about his own creation of Bandanna Dee gaining more significance in the games is a mystery of its own.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

It still baffles me how Nintendo & Namco did such a bang-up job insulating the Pac from his legacy beyond Pac-Land.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Pokemon Tournament DX is hardly the reason people think the Grass Owl has a good chance. It has more to do with a potential unique moveset than anything else. Character is overstated a bit on likeliness, but few actually talk about Pokken like it's a relevant reason.

Whatever the reason for the Decidueye support, it would feel strange if Rowlet doesn't appear at all in Smash Switch, especially considering its popularity in the 7th generation.

Anyway, on my end, the reason for why I'd like to see a playable Ultra Beast is because of the Beast Boost ability, which is unique to Ultra Beasts. Beast Boost could be utilized as a new fighter mechanic, and I did make a concept on how it could work for Buzzwole in its support thread.

https://smashboards.com/threads/447118/#post-21987965

I know that it's not too likely, but the possibility is there, especially when you look at some of the other unique fighter mechanics, such as Lucario's Aura, Robin's Tome limitations, Bowser Jr.'s damage taken multipliers, and Shulk's Monado Arts.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

It still baffles me how Nintendo & Namco did such a bang-up job insulating the Pac from his legacy beyond Pac-Land.

Only move that got through was his flip kick from World 2.

 

[Fenriraga]

Speaking of Pac-Man, I wonder if he'd have an alternate moveset (assuming such things are in the game) based off of Pac-Man World. He had a lot of different moves in those games that could make a good high-mobility moveset.

It still baffles me how Nintendo & Namco did such a bang-up job insulating the Pac from his legacy beyond Pac-Land.

What exactly was so insulting about it? Pac Man was the poster boy of the arcade days, and his moveset is based entirely around that fact. He's one of the most creative characters in the game, in my own opinion.

Yes, I would have liked some other representation of Pac Man outside of the arcade and Pac Land, but I at least understand the logic behind the Pac Land influence. It was his first side scroller, and Smash Bros is... Well, a side scroller. His personality is also on-point.

What exactly would be accomplished by making his moveset more modern? Rev Roll? You mean Sonic's Spindash? Butt Bounce? Not exactly a "defining" move. Metal Pellet? We have the Metal Box for that. Ghostly Adventures? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I agree that SOME love to his other games outside of Pac Land in terms of music, trophies and stages would have been nice. But Pac Man is an Arcade legend above all else, and I think his moveset perfectly encompasses that. It's not like Sonic has his boost or too many other modern moves. His moveset is mostly based on his classic self because that's what defined him back with his inception. Same goes for Pac Man.

And I mean... His up air is his flipper kick from World 2. That's SOMETHING at least, right?

 

[MBRedboy31]

Only move that got through was his flip kick from World 2.

There’s no way to know if his up air was actually inspired by World 2 or if they just coincidentally decided to give him a flip kick for his up air, given that several other characters in Smash have flip kick up airs that aren’t inspired by anything.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Sarki Soliloquy Hot dang, with you pointing that one little detail like "Have him seem wobbly or uncoordinated when he balances on his spear or slipping when he overextends it.", that actually sounds interesting enough of a fun play-style.

I guess the only issue I have now with Dee is if such a clumsy, spear-based play-style would impress Sakurai enough on the surface to get past the Kirby bias and try to develop him as a character. Even with me speaking on Dee's potential, how he feels about his own creation of Bandanna Dee gaining more significance in the games is a mystery of its own.

I feel special today, I'm humbled I could bring out the Dee's character further than it seems. Embarrass

I personally do not invest in the Sakurai Bias fallacy; its appears to be a widespread case of correlation-against-causation with a dose of confirmation bias. But its prevalence has me curious, does anyone have a public statement on Sakurai's opinions of the Kirby series post-Amazing Mirror? Or his relationship with HAL's directors from Triple Deluxe on? If it was really that bad, we wouldn't even get Trophies, music, etc. of Galacta Knight or Moonstruck Blossom on Dream Land 64.

 

[Fenriraga]

There’s no way to know if his up air was actually inspired by World 2 or if they just coincidentally decided to give him a flip kick for his up air, given that several other characters in Smash have flip kick up airs that aren’t inspired by anything.

I think it's pretty safe to assume Sakurai combs through a character's entire history, even if he doesn't use everything from it. The attack is almost entirely identical in terms of animation. If it wasn't what it was directly based off of, it was at least the foundation for it.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

What exactly was so insulting about it? Pac Man was the poster boy of the arcade days, and his moveset is based entirely around that fact. He's one of the most creative characters in the game, in my own opinion.

Yes, I would have liked some other representation of Pac Man outside of the arcade and Pac Land, but I at least understand the logic behind the Pac Land influence. It was his first side scroller, and Smash Bros is... Well, a side scroller. His personality is also on-point.

What exactly would be accomplished by making his moveset more modern? Rev Roll? You mean Sonic's Spindash? Butt Bounce? Not exactly a "defining" move. Metal Pellet? We have the Metal Box for that. Ghostly Adventures? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I agree that SOME love to his other games outside of Pac Land in terms of music, trophies and stages would have been nice. But Pac Man is an Arcade legend above all else, and I think his moveset perfectly encompasses that. It's not like Sonic has his boost or too many other modern moves. His moveset is mostly based on his classic self because that's what defined him back with his inception.

And I mean... His up air is his flipper kick from World 2. That's SOMETHING at least, right?

I never said it was insulting. It just seemed... awkward? They did a pretty good job with Pac-Man, and I admit it was some of the latter stuff that made me loathe the idea of him during Smash 4 specula. So long as it wasn't Ghostly Adventures Pac-Man. Even Sakurai threatened to cut him if he would've been that.

I just thinks its halfway to them to stop showing just how expansive his games have been by stopping at Pac-Land. This whole "Pac is back!" nonsense was never true to begin with. :B

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Guys you know what this means?

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars launched for the Super NES on this day in 1996. Are you Team Mallow or Team Geno? pic.twitter.com/auvmZWJsfM

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 13, 2018

Mallow confirmed for Smash!

 

[Chandeelure]

Guys you know what this means?

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars launched for the Super NES on this day in 1996. Are you Team Mallow or Team Geno? pic.twitter.com/auvmZWJsfM

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 13, 2018

Mallow confirmed for Smash!

Inb4 Mallow gets in instead.

 

[osby]

I never said it was insulting. It just seemed... awkward? They did a pretty good job with Pac-Man, and I admit it was some of the latter stuff that made me loathe the idea of him during Smash 4 specula. So long as it wasn't Ghostly Adventures Pac-Man. Even Sakurai threatened to cut him if he would've been that.

I just thinks its halfway to them to stop showing just how expansive his games have been by stopping at Pac-Land. This whole "Pac is back!" nonsense was never true to begin with. :B

I guess it makes more sense to stick one or two games when designing a character. I don't know why specifically Pac-Land, though.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

What exactly was so insulting about it? Pac Man was the poster boy of the arcade days, and his moveset is based entirely around that fact. He's one of the most creative characters in the game, in my own opinion.

Yes, I would have liked some other representation of Pac Man outside of the arcade and Pac Land, but I at least understand the logic behind the Pac Land influence. It was his first side scroller, and Smash Bros is... Well, a side scroller. His personality is also on-point.

What exactly would be accomplished by making his moveset more modern? Rev Roll? You mean Sonic's Spindash? Butt Bounce? Not exactly a "defining" move. Metal Pellet? We have the Metal Box for that. Ghostly Adventures? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I agree that SOME love to his other games outside of Pac Land in terms of music, trophies and stages would have been nice. But Pac Man is an Arcade legend above all else, and I think his moveset perfectly encompasses that. It's not like Sonic has his boost or too many other modern moves. His moveset is mostly based on his classic self because that's what defined him back with his inception. Same goes for Pac Man.

And I mean... His up air is his flipper kick from World 2. That's SOMETHING at least, right?

For the record, I like Pac-Man's Smash moveset and think it does a good job capturing both the references and the game feel of the original Pac-Man (i.e. constantly having to plan out your next move) but it still bums me out that the latest game references outside fo the PMW2 flip is Pac-Mania.

I wonder if the Bandai half has banned the Namco half from using anything that Midway ever had a hand in.

 

[Fenriraga]

I never said it was insulting. It just seemed... awkward? They did a pretty good job with Pac-Man, and I admit it was some of the latter stuff that made me loathe the idea of him during Smash 4 specula. So long as it wasn't Ghostly Adventures Pac-Man. Even Sakurai threatened to cut him if he would've been that.

I just thinks its halfway to them to stop showing just how expansive his games have been by stopping at Pac-Land. This whole "Pac is back!" nonsense was never true to begin with. :B

I misread insulating as insulting, my bad, haha.

I mean, I guess I can see where you're coming from, but again, nothing beyond the arcade game was really ground-breaking or historically significant. Fantastic games since then, to be sure, but that's all they are... Fantastic games. Not defining ones.

To go back to Sonic again, moveset wise they didn't really go beyond Sonic the Fighters, which was a 1996 arcade fighting game of all things. His down air is similar to his air attack from Sonic Battle, but like Pac Man's up air, it's kinda debateable if that's its actual inspiration. I guess Megaman pulls from almost all his entries, but that's mostly because one of his most defining characteristics is his vast arsenal of weapons, and he's still primarily based on his most defining game, Mega Man 2.

Pac Land was Pac's first side scroller, and Smash IS a platform fighter. I understand the logic, even if I don't agree with it. Moveset wise it only really effects his down special anyway.

I just don't really see the point of going beyond what they did for Pac Man's moveset. But again, some other love in terms of music and trophies might have been nice.

 

[Roberk]

Guys you know what this means?

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars launched for the Super NES on this day in 1996. Are you Team Mallow or Team Geno? pic.twitter.com/auvmZWJsfM

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 13, 2018

Mallow confirmed for Smash!

Why would they do this? It’s not like it’s a milestone anniversary or it’s on the Switch (Virtual Console is kill, we don’t know how we will get SNES games now). Maybe it’s a Splatfest?

 

[Fenriraga]

Guys you know what this means?

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars launched for the Super NES on this day in 1996. Are you Team Mallow or Team Geno? pic.twitter.com/auvmZWJsfM

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 13, 2018

Mallow confirmed for Smash!

...............

Don't play with me like this Nintendo.

Don't suddenly acknowledge a game you haven't even referenced since 2003.

My heart can't take it. My speculation can't take it. I'm trying to keep my expectations under control and you're not helping.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Why would they do this? It’s not like it’s a milestone anniversary or it’s on the Switch (Virtual Console is kill, we don’t know how we will get SNES games now). Maybe it’s a Splatfest?

Even if so, they'd need Square's permission to use the characters.

Right now, my gut says it's slow news day filler but we'll see where this goes.

 

[Murlough]

Speculation:
My only issue with speculation are the people that make the same arguments over and over despite given actual logic and reasoning as to why their argument makes no sense or is misguided. I actually like debating with people....other than those guys who just frustrate me.

Bandana Dee:
If I'm honest, I almost think a new Kirby character is a guarentee. Sakurai has stated that he didn't put more Kirby characters in due to wanting to avoid favoritism. Then the whole Fire Emblem explosion happened which was met with plenty of criticism. Eventually, Sakurai stated he may have overdone the whole FE thing.

I could easily, after this sequence of events, imagine him thinking "Wait, I put how many FE characters into the game, meanwhile my own series only has three characters because of favoritism? That doesn't make any sense at all!"

And who more likely than the popular fan requested character Bandana Dee that people have stated to be Kirby's player 4.

Dancing in my mind~:
The whole "dancing in my mind" argument is terrible because it is completely subjective and doesn't even apply to many characters already in the game. Did Wii Fit Trainer's moveset potential dance in YOUR mind? Olimar's? What about Meta Knight's? Doesn't Jigglypuffs potential just dance in your mind?

Not every new edition to the roster needs to break the mold of the game. It is ok to just make new fighters without them doing crazy nonsense. The crazy nonsense is cool but it doesn't and shouldn't be the law.

 

[Wyoming]

It took between six months and a year for the next reveal, which was...


...Fox.

That remains the only time someone was revealed but changed entirely in the final product, yes?

That blaster being out at all times was awkward looking. So glad they ditched that.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

That remains the only time someone was revealed but changed entirely in the final product, yes?

That blaster being out at all times was awkward looking. So glad they ditched that.

I wonder if that was intentional or if they just hadn't programmed the model to disappear when not in use.

 

[Fenriraga]

I love how they're going "Team Mallow or Team Geno" as if it's seriously even remotely a competition.

I mean, I love my lil' crying cloud prince, but him holding a candle to Geno's popularity is... Yeah.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

I love how they're going "Team Mallow or Team Geno" as if it's seriously even remotely a competition.

I mean, I love my lil' crying cloud prince, but him holding a candle to Geno's popularity is... Yeah.

Or perhaps... Geno and Mallow tag team for SSB5? :O