Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Jubileus57]

An Epic Yarn stage was planned for the last game so it's not like he purposefully avoids newer games.

An epic yarn stage (which I REAAAAAAALLY wanted since it is one of my favourite Wii games) that he scrapped as soon as he could for a stage based on the unreleased Yoshi's Woolly World ^^'

And instead of the awaited RTD or even a Rainbow Curse stage we got the unplayable monstrosity that is The Great Cave Offensive. And in the 3DS? Where were the Triple Deluxe or the Mass Attack stage?

This is way too much omissions IMO

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Pretty sure Bayonetta was the most feasible Ballot choice in the 1st place? Sakurai or Nintendo could've easily kicked her to the curb.

I feel so vindicated for vouching against her detractors in the old RTC thread. She ended up pretty close to how I was explaining her.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You mean at most one time after Pac-Man was revealed? With Cloud, he never mentioned his icon status as much as his popularity in terms of fan demand. Sakurai also considered and wanted Geno despite by you own argument being a character that "didn't carry gaming history". Whilst being iconic is an advantage, it's clearly not an important factor for Sakurai if he didn't think Geno was inappropriate (and hd never mentioned Geno's lack of icon status)

Geno being another exception doesn't change the point at all. He has a right to use his rules as guidelines after all. Not like guidelines he makes is beyond hardset in every case. The only one that's likely to never change for many reasons nor gain exceptions is the "must originate in a video game for 3rd parties", and that's pretty much it.

And he has spoken about other beyond Pac-Man anyway. He's looking for gaming icons by default, and really, pretending "gaming history" just means "has a few games" is seriously grasping at straws. It's very clear what he means. Bayonetta is no gaming icon, nor had any major gaming history that changed the way people view games. Let's stop pretending that applies to her. I love the character and all and am glad to see a woman who represents her sexuality in a meaningful and tasteful way. Instead of just being sexualized for fanservice. But that didn't make her less than niche, just popular among the gaming crowd. She is nowhere near known outside of actual gamers, something every 3rd party actually is overall, bar Geno(who was considered, but is not playable, which means he's not really a proper example of the fact that Bayonetta is the only non-gaming icon playable in Smash among the 3rd parties).

 

[DNeon]

Not so sure about Yarn Yoshi, Kamek, and Galacta Knight though.

To be fair 2 of those are guesses at clones.

So I made my prediction roster. I'm not 100% sold on it. No intentional cuts. Wario and Miis would NOT be there, I just forgot them the first time around and didn't want to move around most of the roster. White means unlockable.
View attachment 144053

Spoiler: Reasonings

Captian Toad: Constant appearances, his own side-game, a unique gimmick. He has a lot going for him.

Kamek: A bit of a risky pick, but I think he has a chance. We have yet to have a fully magic based fighter, and he's had constant roles in both the Mario and Yoshi series. While not a shoe-in, people don't give him enough credit.

Yarn Yoshi: A clone of Yoshi. Featherweight, but very speedy and fast.

Bandana Dee: A shoe in, the most likely Kirby character.

Galacta Knight: A Meta Knight clone. He's only missed one Kirby game since his debut, and has high popularity.

Isabelle: NOT a Villager clone. Uses stuff from AC that weren't represented, like Public Works Projects and Fishing.

Decidueye: A Grass Archer, two things that haven't been given full focus in Smash. I'm not 100% confident in him being who we get, but I think he's quite likely.

? Pokémon: I think Decidueye wont be the only additional Pokémon Rep. It could be a returning vet, another Gen 7 Pokémon, or even revisiting an older Pokémon from an old generation, but regardless I think we'll be getting 2 newcomers.

Celica: We've always gotten a new FE character. If that pattern were to change, It'd be in this game, but I don't think so. Basically "Pichu, but good". Uses Echoes design, not NES

Rex/Pyra: Unique Gimmick.

Takamaru: Token retro

Spring-Man: Unique Gimmick. I can imagine Nintendo would request him to represent the then upcoming ARMS

Octolings: Inkling Clones. Use unique versions of Inkling's moves. For instance, a Splat Bomb would be replaced by a fast but weak Burst Bomb, Roller with a multihit Inkbrush,etc.

Arcade Rabbit: The surprise character. He uses stuff from his game, such as the badges, his extreme personality, and various badge catchers.

Rayman: Ubisoft and Nintendo have had good relations, so it's quite possible.

Shovel Knight: Shovel Knight was published by Nintendo in Japan and has 4 amiibo. Decent indie rep.

Let me know how I did, please give constructive criticism. And for the ideal roster you could swap out Charizard for Marx and it's about right.

Aside from the guesses at clones I don't see anything too egregious. Kamek's getting a bit less prestigous so he's a bit of a long shot. Also the 'WTF' character in the Arcade Bunny is weird but that's the point I guess. I suppose he'd work to represent 'hardware' in the DS line.

I just hope to god that there are 2 pokemon reps and the second is a Johto/Kanto pokemon. Also gimme a bug type.

I do firmly believe we'll see more Zelda reps this game, especially looking at a roster like that and seeing such a hallmark of gaming so outnumbered.

 

[PeridotGX]

Some interesting choices but not to much I'm against. I view Celcia the same way and I'm glad you thought about clones when making this.

However I have to point out that if this is a prediction roster, Kamek has no place on it. There's no reason to think Kamek is likely at all. If your reasoning is a magic user, Ashley is a way more likely and requested character who has been represented pretty well in smash already. Speaking of Wario why is he all the way down there lol.

Kamek may be a little less popular then Ashley, but he seems to be more relevant to each game that he's in compared to Ashley (Main/Secondary antagonist to Minigame host). Plus, while WarioWare been sorta dormant recently, Yoshi's gotten 2 new games, with a 3rd on the way. While he's not a shoe in, Kamek could happen.

Also, I forgot Wario the first time around. When I went to double-check it I realized I forgot him, but I didn't want to move around half the roster, so I stuch him at the bottom (Same with Miis.). If this was an actual roster, it wouldn't happen.

...I know people say the number of reps doesn't matter, but geez! Seeing FE get seven characters when Zelda is still essentially stuck with the same core characters since Melee just doesn't sit well with me at all. There has to be SOMETHING from Zelda Sakurai sees Smash material in, right!?

Sorry. Overall, I'd say the roster is pretty good. It has a nice mix of newcomers spreading across various franchises.

Not so sure about Yarn Yoshi, Kamek, and Galacta Knight though.

Yeah, I don't know enough about Zelda to confidently add another, plus being a prediction roster means I have to try to pick up on Sakurai's... bad trends too.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

As far as 3rd parties being icons, there’s an old saying that goes with this sort of thing.

Actions speak louder than words.

It literally does NOT even matter what Sakurai says about Pac-Man, but not Cloud. Both characters are extremely...EXTREMELY iconic. Sakurai not stating Cloud is an icon is irrelevant, because Cloud IS a gaming icon regardless of what Sakurai says. Bayonetta is not on that same level, but she is funded by Nintendo at this point.

To be putting Geno up there is crazy. He may be a popular character, and yes Sakurai mentioned his popularity. But he’s not in Smash as a playable character. Actions speak louder than words.

Also, if we are going to use Sakurai’s quotes, let’s talk about “game history” and then the one saying “I won’t add them willy nilly”.

You know who is a 3rd party with little gaming history besides the 1 SNES game he appeared in, which gave him a ton of popularity among Nintendo fans? Geno.

You know who is arguably the most iconic RPG character of all time, is in a movie, and whose game redefined the genre for the rest of gaming history? Cloud.

Bayonetta isn’t exactly the same thing as any other situation with a 3rd party, therefore I don’t know that it’s comparable.

I think the logical fallacy here is that all 3rd parties are equal. They most certainly are not. Certainly rules can change, and maybe down the road there may be additions that aren’t on the level of the ones we’ve gotten. But I don’t think Sakurai needs to specify every little thing for us to figure it out. Especially when it comes to characters that draw people other than Nintendo fans, or cost mega bucks to get.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm not even bothering trying to predict what third-parties we'll get this time. There's literally no consistency with how Sakurai chooses them, so I'm just gonna sit back in the sidelines and listen to what other people predict.

I do firmly believe we'll see more Zelda reps this game, especially looking at a roster like that and seeing such a hallmark of gaming so outnumbered.

I'm probably repeating something I've already said a thousand times, but if Breath of the Freaking Wild isn't enough to convince Sakurai that Zelda needs a newcomer, then I don't know what will. Revamping a few characters from the series isn't gonna cut it for me.

 

[Nekoo]

Are we really discussing or even comparing Geno to Cloud now?
Really?

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Meanwhile, I'm just twiddling my toes over Hyde in your siggy.

Muuuuuh how come we can't have UNIEL in Smash but Cloud instead?

 

[Nekoo]

Meanwhile, I'm just twiddling my toes over Hyde in your siggy.

Muuuuuh how come we can't have UNIEL in Smash but Cloud instead?

Too many anime swordman my man

 

[YoshiandToad]

I get that some people want him out as its a matter of personal tastes but some arguments out there are really off. Another one would be "but its a generic waddle dee with a bandana" while pushing for Captain Toad. Like, really? (besides, unlike Toads Waddles Dees are LIKEABLE)

Literally not an argument I've ever seen a single Captain Toad fan spout.

Not sure where this "People pushing for Captain Toad use Generic enemy with hat to describe Bandana Dee to keep him out" argument has come from.
I've seen it brought up twice now by people defending Dee but I have no idea why this is a thing as it's literally not a hypocritical argument I've ever seen a Toad fan saying, not least because Dee has a far more vocal fanbase on these boards.

Generic species is a weird argument anyway.

I mean Yoshi is a generic Yoshi in Smash, and indeed the Yoshi Island Games of which he's based off. Yoshi's Island DS points out THE Yoshi(Mario's pal) is born AFTER Baby Mario's adventure, meaning the green Yoshi you play in Island isn't considered Mario's buddy. Melee's opening has him and a whole heap of other green Yoshi in a stampede. The Adventure mode throws several green Yoshi's against the player as a mini boss round...Yoshi isn't treated as a singular in Smash, so why the hell is 'generic' even used as an argument against either Bandana Dee or Captain Toad who at least have unique outfits to seperate them from their kin?

Can we put an end to this dumbass generic argument when we have Game and Watch and ROB being members of their own races in SSE, Yoshi and the Pokemon(bar Mewtwo) being generic reps from their species and people without a singular sense of irony state Captain Toad and Bandana Dee are generic as if that's an excuse to stay out.

 

[osby]

Literally not an argument I've ever seen a single Captain Toad fan spout.

Not sure where this "People pushing for Captain Toad use Generic enemy with hat to describe Bandana Dee to keep him out" argument has come from.
I've seen it brought up twice now by people defending Dee but I have no idea why this is a thing as it's literally not a hypocritical argument I've ever seen a Toad fan saying, not least because Dee has a far more vocal fanbase on these boards.

Generic species is a weird argument anyway.

I mean Yoshi is a generic Yoshi in Smash, and indeed the Yoshi Island Games of which he's based off. Yoshi's Island DS points out THE Yoshi(Mario's pal) is born AFTER Baby Mario's adventure, meaning the green Yoshi you play in Island isn't considered Mario's buddy. Melee's opening has him and a whole heap of other green Yoshi in a stampede. The Adventure mode throws several green Yoshi's against the player as a mini boss round...Yoshi isn't treated as a singular in Smash, so why the hell is 'generic' even used as an argument against either Bandana Dee or Captain Toad who at least have unique outfits to seperate them from their kin?

Can we put an end to this ******* generic argument when we have Game and Watch and ROB being members of their own races in SSE, Yoshi and the Pokemon(bar Mewtwo) being generic reps from their species and people without a singular sense of irony state Captain Toad and Bandana Dee are generic as if that's an excuse to stay out.

Multiple Mr. Game & Watches were fake copies of him but apart from it agreed.

 

[Jubileus57]

Literally not an argument I've ever seen a single Captain Toad fan spout.

Not sure where this "People pushing for Captain Toad use Generic enemy with hat to describe Bandana Dee to keep him out" argument has come from.
I've seen it brought up twice now by people defending Dee but I have no idea why this is a thing as it's literally not a hypocritical argument I've ever seen a Toad fan saying, not least because Dee has a far more vocal fanbase on these boards.

Generic species is a weird argument anyway.

I mean Yoshi is a generic Yoshi in Smash, and indeed the Yoshi Island Games of which he's based off. Yoshi's Island DS points out THE Yoshi(Mario's pal) is born AFTER Baby Mario's adventure, meaning the green Yoshi you play in Island isn't considered Mario's buddy. Melee's opening has him and a whole heap of other green Yoshi in a stampede. The Adventure mode throws several green Yoshi's against the player as a mini boss round...Yoshi isn't treated as a singular in Smash, so why the hell is 'generic' even used as an argument against either Bandana Dee or Captain Toad who at least have unique outfits to seperate them from their kin?

Can we put an end to this ******* generic argument when we have Game and Watch and ROB being members of their own races in SSE, Yoshi and the Pokemon(bar Mewtwo) being generic reps from their species and people without a singular sense of irony state Captain Toad and Bandana Dee are generic as if that's an excuse to stay out.

In the end of the day, I wholeheartedly agree: this argument has to end.

Maybe my memory is falling out, whoknows but I could have sworn I had seen some people with that argument against BWD with a Captain Toad in their sig. I can entirely be wrong though.

However the main thing stays: even if a character is from a species called "generic" it can entirely be a well-defined character that deserves a spot.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Too many anime swordman my man

Nah man, they're gonna cut like half of them. But you know how Ganondorf is lame & Mewtwo reps Psychic-type? How about... we bring in Hyde for all his dark energy!? And he's also another swords user!?

No wait, its UNIEL! Duuuh, we can even get French Bread to go for Melty Blood! They would want to represent their earliest work, right? It put them on the map! So you know, let's just have Eltnium come in, but she can like, get in via UNIEL. Baaaam, Smash is now part of the Nasuverse!

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! We don't have a visual novel rep in Smash yet! And we have all of Type-Moon in the fold now, so I mean, its sorta-kinda-not-really a vidya gaem we can get? Visual novels are pretty damn important to rEp! Doesn't count that its on the PC or predominantly anime, we got Cloud w/ Fire Emblem & Pokémon aNd ClOuD eVeN HaS aN aDvEnT cHiLdReN aLt!

So why not bring along one of the best? That means...

SAIBA CONFIRMED!

 

[Nekoo]

Honestly- while I have no opinion on Bandana Dee, or Captain Toad.
I believe the argument of people thinking of them as "generic species" comes mostly that...Well-
You have a roster with Sonic, Mario, Link, Zelda, Samus... You can argue that the pokemons are generic species, but when people see Pikachu, they think of Ash's one, Same of Charizard or Jiggllypuff, Lucario is totally based from the movie, same for Mewtwo. Only Greninja could be applied to the "generic species" and even then, now that the Pokémon XYZ anime is over, people will link him to Ash. Same as Yoshi, as people directly link it as THE buddy of Mario from all the games/Spin-off

However, if in the middle of the roster, there a Toad with a backpack- or "just" a Waddle dee with bandana and a spear.
They can't really link it to anyone "famous" in the pop-culture, even f Bandana dee is the "fourth player" in Kirby, a lot of people maybe only did the Kirby games alone-
And as for Captain Toad, people maybe link it as THE toad that Peach already use?

I'm not defending their point, I'm just looking at their reasoning. While not very true, there still a bit of logic behind it-
Those characters will lack the "appeal" that other "generic" species characters we have had.

 

[Cosmic77]

Honestly- while I have no opinion on Bandana Dee, or Captain Toad.
I believe the argument of people thinking of them as "generic species" comes mostly that...Well-
You have a roster with Sonic, Mario, Link, Zelda, Samus... You can argue that the pokemons are generic species, but when people see Pikachu, they think of Ash's one, Same of Charizard or Jiggllypuff, Lucario is totally based from the movie, same for Mewtwo. Only Greninja could be applied to the "generic species" and even then, now that the Pokémon XYZ anime is over, people will link him to Ash. Same as Yoshi, as people directly link it as THE buddy of Mario from all the games/Spin-off

However, if in the middle of the roster, there a Toad with a backpack- or "just" a Waddle dee with bandana and a spear.
They can't really link it to anyone "famous" in the pop-culture, even f Bandana dee is the "fourth player" in Kirby, a lot of people maybe only did the Kirby games alone-
And as for Captain Toad, people maybe link it as THE toad that Peach already use?

I'm not defending their point, I'm just looking at their reasoning. While not very true, there still a bit of logic behind it-
Those characters will lack the "appeal" that other "generic" species characters we have

It shouldn't really matter how people initially interpret the character. Captain Toad is not Toad and Bandana Dee is not a generic Waddle Dee. If people can't see that, then hopefully a playable appearance in Smash will give them more independence and help people distinguish the two from their generic counterparts.

Either way, I don't think it's fair for Sakurai to write these guys off just because of the way they look. His focus should be moveset potential, not the appearance.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly I think people hoping for Lyn OR Celica are setting themselves up for disappointment.

~Sad expression from Opossum.~
I want Lyn, but I do not expect her. Guaranteed assist trophy if she does not make it in though, so that is one thing. She was an assist trophy in Brawl and Smash 4.

Fire Emblem should get another Assist Trophy.

Good point, but I have a better idea.
A FE boss!
I am residing to this guy.

His name is the Black Knight.
The Black Knight even got his own theme I think in the Fire Emblem stage in Smash 4.
Also I mean this looks like a good design for a boss in Smash 4. When he dies, his mask breaks off, revealing Zelgius. Then the boss flees and that is it.

 

[Megadoomer]

I feel like, if Black Knight was added into Smash, I wouldn't possibly be able to take him seriously because of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Honestly- while I have no opinion on Bandana Dee, or Captain Toad.
I believe the argument of people thinking of them as "generic species" comes mostly that...Well-
You have a roster with Sonic, Mario, Link, Zelda, Samus... You can argue that the pokemons are generic species, but when people see Pikachu, they think of Ash's one, Same of Charizard or Jiggllypuff, Lucario is totally based from the movie, same for Mewtwo. Only Greninja could be applied to the "generic species" and even then, now that the Pokémon XYZ anime is over, people will link him to Ash. Same as Yoshi, as people directly link it as THE buddy of Mario from all the games/Spin-off

However, if in the middle of the roster, there a Toad with a backpack- or "just" a Waddle dee with bandana and a spear.
They can't really link it to anyone "famous" in the pop-culture, even f Bandana dee is the "fourth player" in Kirby, a lot of people maybe only did the Kirby games alone-
And as for Captain Toad, people maybe link it as THE toad that Peach already use?

I'm not defending their point, I'm just looking at their reasoning. While not very true, there still a bit of logic behind it-
Those characters will lack the "appeal" that other "generic" species characters we have had.

I can get that but...

Even if Toad and Captain Toad/Waddle Dee and Bandana Waddle Dee were the same guy, neither are currently playable...

MEANWHILE:

both co-exist on the roster together so clearly it's a non issue unless we're going to call Mario generic too now. Technically whilst different people and are also reincarnations of the same soul too.

 

[Nekoo]

It shouldn't really matter how people initially interpret the character.

This is a half truth. Half wrong- because, it's thanks to how people initially interpret the characters that you can jauge who's an icon or not. When people see Mario, Link and Sonic directly. They think of Nintendo, Zelda, Sega, Videogame, proving their Power as Gaming Icon-

However as you says here.

Either way, I don't think it's fair for Sakurai to write these guys off just because of the way they look. His focus should be moveset potential, not the appearance.

This is also truth- however, appearance is actually EXTREMELY important in a Fighting games, one of the most golden rules being that, a design should tell you the basic information about a characters, because it will probably be the first things you see in the roster. Street Fighter and Tekken are good exemple for that. You can guess how characters will fight only thanks to their appearance- but you're also dragged to them BECAUSE they looks cool.


In my opinion it should be a 50/50 balance. Appearance and Moveset potential. The casual should be able to be dragged on the Characters just by looking at it, while the fan will be blessed by how fidele and how great his fan character turned out in moveset.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

I feel like, if Black Knight was added into Smash, I wouldn't possibly be able to take him seriously because of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Neither does his impression in Fate/Zero help.

Spoiler

 

[Nekoo]

both co-exist on the roster together so clearly it's a non issue unless we're going to call Mario generic too now. Technically whilst different people and are also reincarnations of the same soul too.

Using a last minute Clone isn't probably the smartest things to do. And Toon Link get the Zelda recognition.

I'm not defending their point. But I'm just saying that both side should admit that some of their argument aren't good.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I'm pretty sure the same people who dismiss Captain Toad and Bandana Dee as "generic" are also the same type who would dismiss Shulk and Isaac as "generic anime swordsmen".

 

[Nekoo]

I'm pretty sure the same people who dismiss Captain Toad and Bandana Dee as "generic" are also the same type who would dismiss Shulk and Isaac as "generic anime swordsmen".

Imagine if the Choosen One or Solaire get added in Smash
"Generic Western Swordman." argument will now exist in smash.

And what will be great about it is that Dark Souls is a Japanese Game.

 

[BluePikmin11]

For the sake of discussion, I would like to give my full stance on Bandanna Dee.

To quote the article on SG about characters:

"To be blunt, if I think I can do it then I can envision a concrete embodiment of the character, but if I cannot do that the character cannot be made.” This is a big factor. Of course getting permission and understanding from the original creators is necessary, but whether the image of the character in my head is dancing powerfully, or not. This is of the utmost importance."

I have been trying to think this way with Bandanna Dee, and honestly, I do not have strong feelings about Dee's moveset when I envision in Smash gameplay conceptual terms. Dee's move-set is simply not as sparking of an idea as Bayonetta's witch powers or Inklings using of ink. Even if he does fill in an interesting gameplay archetype, when I think of his move-set and his characterization in the Kirby games, it does not spark the immediate imagination. It is just there.

Would Bandanna Dee really be something Sakurai would definitely be strongly intrigued by conceptually, assuming that he lets the Kirby bias aside and actually prioritize this character over other newcomers? I do not think so. I feel there are other characters like Elma, Lycanroc, and Isabelle that would spark more interest, priority, and imagination to Sakurai than Dee. It could be argued that Sakurai could do creative liberties if the spear moveset does not spark some immediate moveset interest, but I feel that would be the case if Sakurai finds an important need to add another Kirby character for representation purposes. And in terms of Kirby representation, I think Sakurai is content enough with Dedede and Meta-Knight to not consider a 4th Kirby character for Smash Switch development. If there were a 4th Kirby character to be considered, I think characters like Marx and even Prince Fluff would spark more interesting moveset ideas for Sakurai than Bandanna Dee.

And I do take character archetype and moveset options into consideration. It is just when I look at Dee and compare him to other spear users like Azura from Fire Emblem Fates that utilize spears and have additional things going for her like being a dancing spear user, I would rather have the latter. How Dee utilizes the spear in combat is fine, but there is not distinct characterization in how he uses it that would make him very attracting of a fighter. Almost every Kirby character utilizes their archetypal/elemental power in a cool way, but Dee doe not use it a way that has distinct personality to it.

Meta-Knight has characterization of him being quick fast-sword user in Kirby whose personality is mysterious and is a daunting ant-hero to Kirby. King Dedede is a heavy hammer user with a mischievous, greedy demeanor. Bandanna Dee personality wise parallels and acts a lot like Kirby that uses a spear, and does not have much to contrast himself beyond the weapon. Then what I am left with is just a potential newcomer who could fill in a spear archetype and utilize those weapons in a cool fashion, but provide nothing additional beyond that.

I guess in general, personality and the given moveset in RtD not easy to dance around with several gameplay ideas is why I think Bandanna Dee is not substantially unique enough of as a fighter and why I do not think he will be in Smash.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

For the sake of discussion, I would like to give my full stance on Bandanna Dee.

To quote the article on SG about characters:

"To be blunt, if I think I can do it then I can envision a concrete embodiment of the character, but if I cannot do that the character cannot be made.” This is a big factor. Of course getting permission and understanding from the original creators is necessary, but whether the image of the character in my head is dancing powerfully, or not. This is of the utmost importance."

I have been trying to think this way with Bandanna Dee, and honestly, I do not have strong feelings about Dee's moveset when I envision in Smash gameplay conceptual terms. Dee's move-set is simply not as sparking of an idea as Bayonetta's witch powers or Inklings using of ink. Even if he does fill in an interesting gameplay archetype, when I think of his move-set and his characterization in the Kirby games, it does not spark the immediate imagination. It is just there.

Would Bandanna Dee really be something Sakurai would definitely be strongly intrigued by conceptually, assuming that he lets the Kirby bias aside and actually prioritize this character over other newcomers? I do not think so. I feel there are other characters like Elma, Lycanroc, and Isabelle that would spark more interest, priority, and imagination to Sakurai than Dee. It could be argued that Sakurai could do creative liberties if the spear moveset does not spark some immediate moveset interest, but I feel that would be the case if Sakurai finds an important need to add another Kirby character for representation purposes. And in terms of Kirby representation, I think Sakurai is content enough with Dedede and Meta-Knight to not consider a 4th Kirby character for Smash Switch development. If there were a 4th Kirby character to be considered, I think characters like Marx and even Prince Fluff would spark more interesting moveset ideas for Sakurai than Bandanna Dee.

And I do take character archetype and moveset options into consideration. It is just when I look at Dee and compare him to other spear users like Azura from Fire Emblem Fates that utilize spears and have additional things going for her like being a dancing spear user, I would rather have the latter. How Dee utilizes the spear in combat is fine, but there is not distinct characterization in how he uses it that would make him very attracting of a fighter. Almost every Kirby character utilizes their archetypal/elemental power in a cool way, but Dee doe not use it a way that has distinct personality to it.

Meta-Knight has characterization of him being quick fast-sword user in Kirby whose personality is mysterious and is a daunting ant-hero to Kirby. King Dedede is a heavy hammer user with a mischievous, greedy demeanor. Bandanna Dee personality wise parallels and acts a lot like Kirby that uses a spear, and does not have much to contrast himself beyond the weapon. Then what I am left with is just a potential newcomer who could fill in a spear archetype and utilize those weapons in a cool fashion, but provide nothing additional beyond that.

I guess in general, personality and the given moveset in RtD not easy to dance around with several gameplay ideas is why I think Bandanna Dee is not substantially unique enough of as a fighter and why I do not think he will be in Smash.

Isabelle doesn't dance in my mind, there, I did it, Isabelle will never be in Smash. Good day sir.

 

[Fenriraga]

Your roster is pretty average and solid. I'm personally on board with you for a BOTW champion rep, game was too big of a deal not to get a rep and it's now or never for Zelda. I think Mipha instead but eh.

I do have to point out something that makes no sense. You cut the clone trio, which people have already argued back and forth about forever so whatever that's your opinnion. But then you added 3 more clones??? What's the logic behind Sakurai getting rid of the clone trio because they're "expendable" and then adding three new clones?

Wait, we don't need three Marths but three Foxes is necessary?

Yeah I... Kinda started thinking about that a bit after I posted.
I find clones expendable, yes. We lost Doc, Pichu, Young Link, Roy etc. On the transition from Melee to Brawl, but gained Lucas, Wolf, and (Until DLC) We lost Lucas and Wolf in 4. We lose clones and gain clones every entry, I feel pretty confident that's going to happen in the new game because of this.

As for why I have some previous clones, I have two catagories of clones: clones that have the exact same moveset as their counter parts but with different attributes (Melee Doc and Young Link, Lucina and Dark Pit) and clones that, while definitely using the foundation of their original character, at least have some different attacks to separate themselves from them, even if it's just standard attacks and not specials (Brawl Falco and Wolf, Lucas, Ganondorf Toon Link). So far, we have yet to see any pure clone return in the base roster, except for Doc, but that's only because Mario gained new attacks. That's why they stay and others go. I suppose Roy KINDA falls into that catagory now... But he's still extremely similar in a lot of ways, and again, fat cut for FE since it had two clones of the same character, but still has plenty of original characters to balance that out, something Star Fox doesn't have. That's my logic for my roster, anyway. Definitely not saying I'm right, haha.

 

[Nekoo]

Isabelle doesn't dance in my mind, there, I did it, Isabelle will never be in Smash. Good day sir.

Oh hey Sakurai. Do you think Pink gold Peach dance in your mind? Will Ridley finally be playable?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Oh hey Sakurai. Do you think Pink gold Peach dance in your mind? Will Ridley finally be playable?

Pink Gold Peach definitely dances in my mind. Since her first appearance is in Mario Kart, she could use various items, like the joke, and throw it over your head.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

For the sake of discussion, I would like to give my full stance on Bandanna Dee.

To quote the article on SG about characters:

"To be blunt, if I think I can do it then I can envision a concrete embodiment of the character, but if I cannot do that the character cannot be made.” This is a big factor. Of course getting permission and understanding from the original creators is necessary, but whether the image of the character in my head is dancing powerfully, or not. This is of the utmost importance."

I have been trying to think this way with Bandanna Dee, and honestly, I do not have strong feelings about Dee's moveset when I envision in Smash gameplay conceptual terms. Dee's move-set is simply not as sparking of an idea as Bayonetta's witch powers or Inklings using of ink. Even if he does fill in an interesting gameplay archetype, when I think of his move-set and his characterization in the Kirby games, it does not spark the immediate imagination. It is just there.

Would Bandanna Dee really be something Sakurai would definitely be strongly intrigued by conceptually, assuming that he lets the Kirby bias aside and actually prioritize this character over other newcomers? I do not think so. I feel there are other characters like Elma, Lycanroc, and Isabelle that would spark more interest, priority, and imagination to Sakurai than Dee. It could be argued that Sakurai could do creative liberties if the spear moveset does not spark some immediate moveset interest, but I feel that would be the case if Sakurai finds an important need to add another Kirby character for representation purposes. And in terms of Kirby representation, I think Sakurai is content enough with Dedede and Meta-Knight to not consider a 4th Kirby character for Smash Switch development. If there were a 4th Kirby character to be considered, I think characters like Marx and even Prince Fluff would spark more interesting moveset ideas for Sakurai than Bandanna Dee.

And I do take character archetype and moveset options into consideration. It is just when I look at Dee and compare him to other spear users like Azura from Fire Emblem Fates that utilize spears and have additional things going for her like being a dancing spear user, I would rather have the latter. How Dee utilizes the spear in combat is fine, but there is not distinct characterization in how he uses it that would make him very attracting of a fighter. Almost every Kirby character utilizes their archetypal/elemental power in a cool way, but Dee doe not use it a way that has distinct personality to it.

Meta-Knight has characterization of him being quick fast-sword user in Kirby whose personality is mysterious and is a daunting ant-hero to Kirby. King Dedede is a heavy hammer user with a mischievous, greedy demeanor. Bandanna Dee personality wise parallels and acts a lot like Kirby that uses a spear, and does not have much to contrast himself beyond the weapon. Then what I am left with is just a potential newcomer who could fill in a spear archetype and utilize those weapons in a cool fashion, but provide nothing additional beyond that.

I guess in general, personality and the given moveset in RtD not easy to dance around with several gameplay ideas is why I think Bandanna Dee is not substantially unique enough of as a fighter and why I do not think he will be in Smash.

One thing I always think about when making a prediction roster is if I'm just adding characters for the sake of new reps. This comes across specifically with Zelda and Kirby. And , at least according to smash4, is not at all how Sakurai picks characters (well except Pokemon but I think that's a big difference).

However Kirby is a highly requested series, especially in Japan, and Bandana Dee is very popular. So still gunna predict him lol. But I totally see where you are coming from and I think that will be a fault in a lot of our rosters, thinking of new characters in the form of needed representation opposed to character potential.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Oh hey Sakurai. Do you think Pink gold Peach dance in your mind? Will Ridley finally be playable?

I believe you've missed the point.

The point is Blue is trying to imagine who will dance in Sakurai's mind but there's no guarantee Isabelle has an obvious moveset.

Sakurai's mind is an enigma anyway. He looked at Rosalina who treats the lumas as her precious children and went "ya know what? She's going to send them out to fight for her and shield her from damage" who knows what he'll imagine.

 

[Nekoo]

I believe you've missed the point.

The point is Blue is trying to imagine who will dance in Sakurai's mind but there's no guarantee Isabelle has an obvious moveset.

Sakurai's mind is an enigma anyway. He looked at Rosalina who treats the lumas as her precious children and went "ya know what? She's going to send them out to fight for her and shield her from damage" who knows what he'll imagine.

And me I was just playing along with that fact.

 

[Cosmic77]

For the sake of discussion, I would like to give my full stance on Bandanna Dee.

To quote the article on SG about characters:

"To be blunt, if I think I can do it then I can envision a concrete embodiment of the character, but if I cannot do that the character cannot be made.” This is a big factor. Of course getting permission and understanding from the original creators is necessary, but whether the image of the character in my head is dancing powerfully, or not. This is of the utmost importance."

I have been trying to think this way with Bandanna Dee, and honestly, I do not have strong feelings about Dee's moveset when I envision in Smash gameplay conceptual terms. Dee's move-set is simply not as sparking of an idea as Bayonetta's witch powers or Inklings using of ink. Even if he does fill in an interesting gameplay archetype, when I think of his move-set and his characterization in the Kirby games, it does not spark the immediate imagination. It is just there.

Would Bandanna Dee really be something Sakurai would definitely be strongly intrigued by conceptually, assuming that he lets the Kirby bias aside and actually prioritize this character over other newcomers? I do not think so. I feel there are other characters like Elma, Lycanroc, and Isabelle that would spark more interest, priority, and imagination to Sakurai than Dee. It could be argued that Sakurai could do creative liberties if the spear moveset does not spark some immediate moveset interest, but I feel that would be the case if Sakurai finds an important need to add another Kirby character for representation purposes. And in terms of Kirby representation, I think Sakurai is content enough with Dedede and Meta-Knight to not consider a 4th Kirby character for Smash Switch development. If there were a 4th Kirby character to be considered, I think characters like Marx and even Prince Fluff would spark more interesting moveset ideas for Sakurai than Bandanna Dee.

And I do take character archetype and moveset options into consideration. It is just when I look at Dee and compare him to other spear users like Azura from Fire Emblem Fates that utilize spears and have additional things going for her like being a dancing spear user, I would rather have the latter. How Dee utilizes the spear in combat is fine, but there is not distinct characterization in how he uses it that would make him very attracting of a fighter. Almost every Kirby character utilizes their archetypal/elemental power in a cool way, but Dee doe not use it a way that has distinct personality to it.

Meta-Knight has characterization of him being quick fast-sword user in Kirby whose personality is mysterious and is a daunting ant-hero to Kirby. King Dedede is a heavy hammer user with a mischievous, greedy demeanor. Bandanna Dee personality wise parallels and acts a lot like Kirby that uses a spear, and does not have much to contrast himself beyond the weapon. Then what I am left with is just a potential newcomer who could fill in a spear archetype and utilize those weapons in a cool fashion, but provide nothing additional beyond that.

I guess in general, personality and the given moveset in RtD not easy to dance around with several gameplay ideas is why I think Bandanna Dee is not substantially unique enough of as a fighter and why I do not think he will be in Smash.

To be fair, look how far FE got with just sword characters. Not saying that characters like Robin or Corrin aren't unique, but I don't think much of the FE cast has moves that's exclusive to only them. Truthfully, many characters with a sword could utilize their attacks without it seeming weird or out of place.

Bandana Dee and his spear might not stand out as much as characters like Bayo or Rosalina, but I do think he has enough potential to be unique, even if others characters could do the exact same thing. Then there's also his popularity, which is something that gives him a leg up over many more unique options.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Are you kiddin' me? B.W. Dee's pole dance routine is an enrapturing sight to behold! It took him years to perfect it without joints!

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

To be fair, look how far FE got with just sword characters. Not saying that characters like Robin or Corrin aren't unique, but I don't think much of the FE cast has moves that's exclusive to only them. Truthfully, many characters with a sword could utilize their attacks without it seeming weird or out of place.

Bandana Dee and his spear might not stand out as much as characters like Bayo or Rosalina, but I do think he has enough potential to be unique, even if others characters could do the exact same thing. Then there's also his popularity, which is something that gives him a leg up over many more unique options.

As I pointed out though the newcomers added for smash 4 all reflect unique character potential. Robin and Corrin, although also sword users, had something else interesting and unique to them. Lucina was an upgrade costume so she gets a pass.

However, this is all of course assuming we understand what Sakurai considers as unique. Bandana Dee being the only spear fighter in the game might be unique enough for smash.

 

[The Original Robot boy]

I feel like, if Black Knight was added into Smash, I wouldn't possibly be able to take him seriously because of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

I know what you mean

 

[True Blue Warrior]

"I can't imagine how Bandana Dee would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him"

Hmmmm... what does this remind me of? Oh yeah, the same type of pre-Smash 4 arguments

"I can't imagine how Rosalina would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add her" - detractors before Rosalina was revealed.

"I can't imagine how Little Mac would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before Little Mac was revealed.

"I can't imagine how Pac-Man would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before Pac-Man was revealed.

"I can't imagine how Shulk would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before Shulk was revealed.

"I can't imagine how the Duck Hunt Dog would be interesting, therefore Sakurai won't add him" - detractors before the Duck Hunt Dog was confirmed.

 

[Fenriraga]

Pink Gold Peach definitely dances in my mind. Since her first appearance is in Mario Kart, she could use various items, like the joke, and throw it over your head.

Kudos, that's literally the funniest post I've read in awhile. In the good kind of way, of course.

Are you kiddin' me? B.W. Dee's pole dance routine is an enrapturing sight to behold! It took him years to perfect it without joints!

That's a very close second.

 

[Wyoming]

People who said that about Shulk never played Xenoblade.

Rosalina is only in hindsight as nobody would have put her as a puppeteer that uses Luma - since she doesn't actually do that nor do I think it fits her character at all.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

I give up on trying to predict anything until E3.
We have no information on what games he could rely upon to choose his characters. Normally he should choose from the Wii U era, but with the low amount of new contents it brought, it's difficult to say.
We also have the ballot that could completely change what we will get depending on what the silent majority voted.
For all we know we could get a smaller roster, or 15 newcomers, no cuts or ten cuts.
I'll disappear for now. No idea on characters. The only one I'm sure will remain is Mari-