Super Smash Bros. Brawl versus Halo 3

[Red Exodus]

I've played Halo 2 offline [actuallyI've never played it online] with system link. It's a hassle but it's fun, the most people I've played with was 9 including myself and boy was it insane. With just 4 people Halo 2 would probably get old faster than it should.

 

[Johnknight1]

I've played Halo 2 offline [actuallyI've never played it online] with system link. It's a hassle but it's fun, the most people I've played with was 9 including myself and boy was it insane. With just 4 people Halo 2 would probably get old faster than it should.

Exactly! I have a monthly Halo 2 LAN party I go to, it has no lag watsoever. None! If you can do that with the Xbox & 360, why not Wii? 16 people, ascention, tower of power, 2 teams, four couches, four TVs, one room, lots of pizza, plus me and the people on my couch/screen owning all...good times! Me with shotgun, in a shotgun only=no enemy survivors!

This point could translate into SSBB, but there is more functions (Ex: special melee, time, stock, time stock, bonus, coin, etc.) that could make combat better. Plus team fighting (2 vs. 2's and 3 vs. 1's, 2 vs. 1 vs. 1, etc) can make a smaller # of combatants more fun. Plus a tourny feature would be nice.

Also, Halo 2 doesn't have that much lag issues, unless facing people far away & bad connections. So why can't SSBB have the same thing? (Red, I highly suggest playing Halo 2, or GoW online=fun) If it doesn't have lag like most Halo 2 games, why not?

Look at Metroid Prime: Hunters on the DS. That game owns online (probably best online handheld game), and generally (though my opponenets usually are close) doesn't lag much, if it lags at all.

Still Halo 3 will sell better most likely, unless the Wii is more available for the consumer. Nintendo's path to success is making some games for the usual non-gamers (Wii Sports, for example), and focusing on the average gamer.

Also variety works good, which is why the PSx and PS2 succeeded and beat the competition (only two systems to sell over 100 million units). Still, even if SSBB sells more than Halo 3, expect there to be a GoW 2, and probably a GoW 3 to back it up (how come there is no 2nd person shooters=?).

Halo will win in sales, but for which game will be played the longest, I dunno. Depends on the online function, playablity, and the possible DS SSB game. I seriously doubt this, but I wonder if there will be a limit above 4 players, even though I give it next to chance.

Also a tourney (much like tournament melee in SSBM) as a online function would be nice. Plus if Halo 2 has more than a 16 person limit, it could do more damage.

Considering I have a Wii and plan on buying a 360 (srry Sony, PS3=no, Oblivion is all you got, plus MGS 4 and Devil May Cry 4 soon, but nothing else), and actually I want to get both games, and I assume neither will dissapoint.

The Smash Champ has a good point, Halo 1 sold less than SSBM, and Halo 2 only really sold more because of the heavily anticipated Xbox Live, which is what SSB needs. It will keep you drilled, not playing CPU's when your friends aren't there, and you can be lazy, and just face them and random people online! Good times are ahead, o ya!

Heck, The Smash Champs has a better point saying more people talk about SSBB than the much awaited Halo 3. My friend, who loves Gow, Halo 1 & 2, Rainbow Six: Vegas, pretty much only Xbox & 360 games wants to play SSBB when it comes out, and I convinced him to come to my house to play the LOZ TP (after I told him "the guy in green isn't Zelda, that's Link!") . Considering all the anit-GC stuff he said, he hates classic games (NES is awsome), and he hates Nintendo, it was really wierd....


Two of my other friends played Twilight Princess for like 10 hours straight (njk, I had to get both of them hooked on GoW to hide my Wii). Plus I've seen a lot more of my other friends stop by my house (usually I go to their houses), who want to play Wii Sports, convince to play TP, and I got them hooked. Either game any of my friends play, they are hooked!

 

[Metaknight Alpha]

I say Halo3 and here's why,


1. Which has had more success: Xbox 360 or the Wii

2. The Halo series is more popular than the Super Smash Bros series

3. BETTER GRAPHICS. PERIOD.:bigthumbu

4. and lastly: The online capability is overall better...you know it.

 

[Sensai]

This is going to make me sound like a fanboy, but...

1. The Wii also hasn't had a year and a half, but I'd say it's doing very well. The 360's sales are looking like they're slowing, while Nintendo still hasn't caught up with demand. Given, that may be them doing it purposely...

2. No arguement, unless of course more people do get drawn into the Wii then the 360. I doubt it, but if it happens...

3. BUT LAWL THE WII HAS T3H BET3TR GRAXIF!111 No, no contest. I concede to your point, Halo 3 will be visually superior. Given, I don't agree that that makes it better, but to some (if not most), it'll be the first thing everyone notices and probably be a good selling point.

4. You're probably going to be right about this, too. But you don't know how Brawl's online will be. Nor do all of the optimists, either, so...it's a complete variable.

 

[Johnknight1]

I say Halo3 and here's why,


1. Which has had more success: Xbox 360 or the Wii

2. The Halo series is more popular than the Super Smash Bros series

3. BETTER GRAPHICS. PERIOD.:bigthumbu

4. and lastly: The online capability is overall better...you know it.

The Wii has been out about or less than half the time of the 360. Also the Wii is gaining massive 3rd party support, which it needs to grow in. This 3rd party support is surprising other than Capcom, video game designers for movie games, etc. who are loyal and appreciate Nintendo. That is where Nintendo was destroyed in the past with! Plus, Wii sales are at as much as 4.5 million units, 360 sales are as high as 10.5 million.

Halo isn't exactly more popular. Mario series characters are in it, and Mario wayyy more popular or reconizable than any other series in history will ever be, period. LOZ is also more reconizable, and same with DK, Pokemon, maybe Yoshi, etc. Fact is Halo onlhy has 2 games out, and has Halo 3 and Halo Wars coming out. That's 4 games. All there sales combine will never be as high as Super Mario Bros sales (40 million units), ever.

Halo's master chief is easily less reconizable as Pickachu, DK, Peach, Bowser, Luigi, Toad, Wario, Link, and esecially Mario. One alone is more popular, and each series has a game that has sold more units than Halo 2 (Mario has a ton, LOZ has OOT, Wario, well lets count him as Mario,DK=Donkey Kong 1-3, or DKC even).

Graphics are nooby to me. I want better graphics, but then again I got a mad self quote (not saying anyone in particular, just disproving you):

Would you rather play a decent game with exellent graphics, or a exellent game with decent graphics?

The graphics is all the 360 abnd PS3 fans got on insulting Nintendo, plus those Wii jokes (which I make funnier ones, by far!) Also the childish games=LOZ, Metroid, MGS 2, Manhunt sequal (one of the bloodiest games ever), and Resident Evil. Reaalll childish, smart one idiots! Plus SSBB has Snake.

the online capability can be disproven, again looking at the DS. It's new online technology with Wi-Fi connection on the things I've seen of people playing games across the world, facing each other on a handheld system is amazing.

I expect the Wii online to be just as good if not better, without the hastle that the DS has. Especially if Nintnedo works on the online console expericence, and in SSBB. Nintendo could have a major success if they look at what they did right with the DS online, and changing what they did wrong, and add some cool new stuff to the online system.

Plus I still wonder if they'll have more downloadable content, especially with SSBB and other top selling and highly played online games. If they do have downloadable content, I wonder if SSBB will add new characters, items, features, modes (ex: stamina, coins, giant melee), and maybe even characters=? I really wonder about this question, & i dunno about weather it will be a yes or a no. I dunno which way the downloadable content could go=???

 

[Shai Hulud]

Exactly! I have a monthly Halo 2 LAN party I go to, it has no lag watsoever. None! If you can do that with the Xbox & 360, why not Wii? 16 people, ascention, tower of power, 2 teams, four couches, four TVs, one room, lots of pizza, plus me and the people on my couch/screen owning all...good times! Me with shotgun, in a shotgun only=no enemy survivors!

Actually there is still a noticable amount of lag. Competitive players are very aware of whose box is host because that player's shots are more accurate than everyone else's. You probably wouldn't notice it if you're playing tower of power, but then again you probably wouldn't notice much of anything because you'd have to be a ****ing idiot to play that in the first place.

On LAN at best you're going to have a latency of 15 - 20 ms. To see why that's significant in a fighter, I'll copy and paste something I wrote in another thread.

No offense, but if you think < 5 frames lag is insignificant, you probably suck at this game. Have you ever played on a non-CRT HDTV? Many of them have 1 - 2 frames of lag, and trust me, you notice. For instance, I was trying to play Ice Climbers on an HDTV yesterday, and suddenly all my dash => wd backwards attempts were resulting in pivoted jumps instead.

Pivoting is a 1-frame tech. Powershielding is a 1-frame tech. Samus' SHFFMC requires frame-perfect timing. Marth's 2x SH FAIR has only a few frames of forgiveness. You have a 1-frame window to do multiple JC shines, or one JC shine from shield. Jump-cancelled grabs have a window of about 3 - 5 frames, depending on the character. I could go on and on. Hell, wavedashing has a window of 3 - 5 frames. The point is, in a fighter, even 1 frame of lag is enough to keep you from doing many techs.

And there's no possible way Brawl online will be lagless. A 1-frame lag at 60 fps means a latency of ~16.5 ms, which is a latency you might experience on LAN. No possible way you would get a latency that good online. If you have a T3 and your next-door neighbor has a T3, maybe you'd experience only 2 frames of lag. But that is the absolute best case scenario.

And that's the best case scenario. Realistic online latencies, good ones even, are more like 60 - 80 ms, which means at 60 fps you're lagging 4 - 5 frames, which would render most or all of the advanced techniques useless.

 

[Sculelos]

And that's the best case scenario. Realistic online latencies, good ones even, are more like 60 - 80 ms, which means at 60 fps you're lagging 4 - 5 frames, which would render most or all of the advanced techniques useless.

Probably one of the reasons why Brawl is going to be a slower game then melee, I just hope online will still be fun, and if it is thats all that really matters to me.

 

[NilliX]

I say Halo3 and here's why,


1. Which has had more success: Xbox 360 or the Wii

2. The Halo series is more popular than the Super Smash Bros series

3. BETTER GRAPHICS. PERIOD.:bigthumbu

4. and lastly: The online capability is overall better...you know it.

1. 360. Know why? It's been out for more that a year previous to the Wii. But according to nexgenwars, the market share for Wii is rising drastically, and they are in fact catching up with 360 effectively.

2. Nothing to say. It is.

3. Since when did we care about graphical power? I just want some awesome gameplay, is all.

4. I agree with this. The fact that Nintendo are putting different friend codes on ALL of their online games sucks much.

 

[h1roshi]

yea...u cant even compare the two new games..and i agree with mcfox...brawl is coming out in late november early december...peace

-hiroshi

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

3. BETTER GRAPHICS. PERIOD.:bigthumbu

Oh, you're one of those I pity you.

Turtles in time kicks your butt.

Also, Shai's 100% on the money. Im hoping that Brawl will work online but you have to realize that even 1 frame of lag will make the game unplayable.

 

[Infil]

Oh, you're one of those I pity you.

Turtles in time kicks your butt.

Also, Shai's 100% on the money. Im hoping that Brawl will work online but you have to realize that even 1 frame of lag will make the game unplayable.

Heh, well then, every single game ever released online for any platform, ever, has been unplayable.

Online Smash will be no substitute for live Smash, but to say it'll be unplayable is just ridiculous. You'll notice a bit of lag, and you probably won't be able to play your most technical, highest game, but it will still be fun. Remember; lag doesn't affect what you do. It only will affect how your opponent sees you, and how you see him. C'mon, though... 1 frame makes the game unplayable? You just have way too high expectations for the online mode, I guess.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Heh, well then, every single game ever released online for any platform, ever, has been unplayable.

Online Smash will be no substitute for live Smash, but to say it'll be unplayable is just ridiculous. You'll notice a bit of lag, and you probably won't be able to play your most technical, highest game, but it will still be fun. Remember; lag doesn't affect what you do. It only will affect how your opponent sees you, and how you see him. C'mon, though... 1 frame makes the game unplayable? You just have way too high expectations for the online mode, I guess.

good point. I was overreacting.... I kind of just thing it wont be good for serious games. Itll be MAD fun though!

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

So, according to ign, Halo 3 will be coming out some time in September. (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/772/772950p1.html)

Now. This isn't in the Light House. What does Halo 3's release date have to do with Super Smash Bros. Brawl? Well, it is significant in light of a hypothesis I have; being that Brawl could be a Halo Killer.

Hear me out. What makes Halo so addictive and popular? I believe it is the combination of two things.

A. The Balance that Halo strikes between sheer pick-up-and-playability and competitive depth. Any morons can pick up an XBox paddle and begin blowing the heck out each other. IT's fun, it's simple it's stupid. But put that same paddle in the hands of a skilled professional, and Halo becomes a very exact test of speed, instinct and strategy. Much the same way, Super Smash Bros. spans a huge range between simple stupid play and deep strategic play.

B. How great the multiplayer experience is. There are few things to beat it: you and three of your friends, laughing over Smash Bros. So many unexpected things can happen in the game, it makes endless material to laugh over and enjoy. Halo is much the same way. I suck at both games, but I love them for their amazing ability as a social event.

Now, in 2007, we have the third installment in two of the great multiplayer franchises is Gaming history. So, the crux of the issue becomes this. Do you think Nintendo will shy away from the enourmous competition that Halo would provide for Brawl and steer clear of December, or will they have the Balls to pit Brawl against modern gaming's giant and try and take a hujnk out of it's playbase.

Well, then. Discuss. Is Brawl a Halo-Killer, and will it come out at the same time as Halo, or as far away as possible?

Long Story short people who have both systems will get both cause whats 100$ months from now if your systems together add up to 550$ minimum.... if you save 1$ a day starting now your set.

FYI:Halo 3 and Brawl will both have lag is a givin...but millions will continue to play both online....so If you cant put up with some lag here and there, your at a big disadvantage simply because you'll be playing those near you which at max is how many a day....? 1...2 mabey... when the rest of us can play around 100 different people a day of different skill levels...and simply different mind games = more skill.

 

[Sensai]

Oh, you're one of those I pity you.

My boy, you know I <3 you: this is the funniest rude thing you've ever said, 'cause I agree with you 100%. Seriously. Best thing you've ever said.

I expect the Wii online to be just as good if not better, without the hastle that the DS has. Especially if Nintnedo works on the online console expericence, and in SSBB. Nintendo could have a major success if they look at what they did right with the DS online, and changing what they did wrong, and add some cool new stuff to the online system.

I'm going to assume you're new to Nintendo, or you're just ignoring facts on purpose.

When has Nintendo EVER changed something without absolutely needing to? C'mon, seriously. Out of the 3 console producers, I agree: they're the most 'honorable' (look Dylan! Honor! Heh. :-D), but they're still a company. They want the most money with the least work necessary.

Plus I still wonder if they'll have more downloadable content, especially with SSBB and other top selling and highly played online games. If they do have downloadable content, I wonder if SSBB will add new characters, items, features, modes (ex: stamina, coins, giant melee), and maybe even characters=? I really wonder about this question, & i dunno about weather it will be a yes or a no. I dunno which way the downloadable content could go=???

I would be very surprised. If they do, however, add some extra content in, expect a fee....

Given, all of us would download it in a second, but jeah.

The thing I'm more interested, and worried about, is patching of the game. If they realize that Metaknight is BROKEN, will they try to 'fix' him by releasing a patch? Or worse yet, if a new technique of wavedash importance was discovered, would they attempt to fix it?

 

[Red Exodus]

1 Frame of lag WILL mess up your game, Fox's shine comes out in 1 frame, most techniques give you less than a 10 frame window. This has been dicussed already, there's no need to bring it up.

 

[Johnknight1]

Dylan_Tnga;2255822]Oh, you're one of those I pity you.

Best quote ever! LMAO! Agree 100%, as should everyone. Again the whole good game with bad graphics vs. bad game with good graphics is what it really comes down to. And a good game is always better than a bad game! Good games don't need graphics, they just need to be awsome (ex: SSBM), period!

When has Nintendo EVER changed something without absolutely needing to? C'mon, seriously. Out of the 3 console producers, I agree: they're the most 'honorable' (look Dylan! Honor! Heh. :-D), but they're still a company. They want the most money with the least work necessary

Sensai I agree, they probably won't do something without absolutely needing to. They are the most honorable and caring towards fans of the three console making companies, and yes they are a company.

I doubt they will change, but the online could be a good bussiness move to attract more people to the Wii, and Nintendo in general. The Wii online multiplayer probably will be very similar to the DS online function, and that looks exellent. If Wii online multiplayer is just a little better, at least we have it! That means no more getting bored of CPUs=o ya!

For the downloadable content, if they have it (I am doubting it), I expect that really only courses, items, features, etc. will be downloadable. Characters I don't expect even if they have it, and patches, well not really. The exception to patches is online patches. Plus yes, porbably for a fee, much like the Virtual Console setup, but o well new courses=more fun!

Actually there is still a noticable amount of lag. Competitive players are very aware of whose box is host because that player's shots are more accurate than everyone else's. You probably wouldn't notice it if you're playing tower of power, but then again you probably wouldn't notice much of anything because you'd have to be a ****ing idiot to play that in the first place.

On LAN at best you're going to have a latency of 15 - 20 ms. To see why that's significant in a fighter, I'll copy and paste something I wrote in another thread.

Good points in your post, but I think I might have figured something out. Also Halo 2 is a great game, and is fun. But personally I still prefer SSBM, but both are exellent games!

Now for online, I think this is where the so-called "controlled speed" kicks in. SSBB will probably be slower than SSBM, but hopefully not by much (fingers crossed). That means less lag, easier play, as well as smoother online play. I really wonder if the possible online is why possibly SSBB might be slower than SSBM=?

Hopefully LAN will have less latency, because I'll probably use that more. Hopefully Nintendo has been working on the online stuff for a while (you know the GC actually had a few games oline?), and has been attempting to master it.

GoW has quite a bit less lag than Halo 2, and Halo 3 will have a lot less than that. Hopefully SSBB can get it done right. Hopefully Nintendo gets the memo, and also they could use the possible (but probably unlikely) downloadable content online patching to possibly help with game speeds and online playability.

Online Smash will be no substitute for live Smash, but to say it'll be unplayable is just ridiculous. You'll notice a bit of lag, and you probably won't be able to play your most technical, highest game, but it will still be fun. Remember; lag doesn't affect what you do. It only will affect how your opponent sees you, and how you see him.

Sure the online there will be lag, but hey it is still the same SSB we have all know to love! I think this quote from Infil sums it all up! Live SSB is still prefered, but I think I'll play LAN and online with people within close distance online or live more. Hopefully online owns like no other!

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

Know what would be messed up....if the second trailer we all saw turned out to be online the whole time....think of the Irony...

 

[Flying @ Wii Level]

Well, well. What to say. As a prodigious fan of both Halo and SSB...this topic attracted me right away. I believe that Halo will win it overall due to the Xbox Live Experience; it's so well maintained and designed. Unless Wii can build their online games up a little more instead of having SSBB as a 4th or 5th online title...

 

[Sensai]

Johnknight1, I just read your post, haha. Took me forever, 'cause I couldn't remember if I had read it earlier.

It's not confirmed that the Wii can LAN. It makes sense that it would be able to, but it hasn't be confirmed. The whole thing started after IGN said something about seeing BWii using it WLAN, and then BAM.

And Nintendo's been doing online since the original NES. The Famicom had some kind of online service in Japan.

 

[Shai Hulud]

GOW has worse lag than Halo 2.

I don't know where you kids get your information but it's almost always wrong.

 

[Sensai]

I don't think I've been wrong...but then again, I don't think you were refferring to me.

HA! All you other guys just got owned!

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

Unless we see more SSBB gameplay we shouldnt make any assumptions. Once we can tell how fast the game will be going and how smooth the online will be, then we can say something. In the end we really dont know what will happen...

 

[Johnknight1]

Johnknight1, I just read your post, haha. Took me forever, 'cause I couldn't remember if I had read it earlier.

It's not confirmed that the Wii can LAN. It makes sense that it would be able to, but it hasn't be confirmed. The whole thing started after IGN said something about seeing BWii using it WLAN, and then BAM.

And Nintendo's been doing online since the original NES. The Famicom had some kind of online service in Japan.

I think the Wii will have LAN, considering it has 2 USB ports. Also future games on the Wii are scheduled, with possiblities of online.

[GOW has worse lag than Halo 2.

I don't know where you kids get your information but it's almost always wrong./QUOTE]

Ya, I played GoW and Halo 2 online (today and yesterday in fact), and they do lag. I owned, got three riots in two games on Halo 2, and won a three on one, using only the chainsaw! I love it when I win.

Back on topic, I am positive will have some lag, but GoW only freezes for a minute, then loads again, or you miss with some random melee attacks. Considering that and SSB consists mainly of melee attacks, I bet it anything lags it will be long distant attacks (ex: Mario's fireballs, Link's arrows).

I compared the SSBM gameplay speed, and SSBB trailer speed, and SSBM still looks a bit faster, but not by much. It could help make an easier online with less lag as I am assuming, but there is probably a bigger factor than that.

Considering the Wii is aiming at non-gamers as well as gamers, I think the series might want to aim more at people who are unfamiliar to the series, as well as non-gamers with it's easy controls, even if SSB 64 and SSBM already had simple controls. Hopefully SSBB aims at SSB fans and gamers, and minimally aims at than non-gamers (like Twilight Princess)!

 

[Sensai]

The whole 'for non-gamers' spiel doesn't really pan out in the end.

Believe it or not, the X amount of people on these forums (that's a big X, mind you) are all Nintendo fans. We ALSO want videogames from Nintendo, probably more then others. Nintendo doesn't wanna piss us off, thus, they'll be releasing some 'harder' games.

Zelda is the first example of this, with MP3 and (hopefully) Smash being two more coming this year. Project H.A.M.M.E.R. and Disaster: Day of Crisis are two more that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[L5LM_Gtlink]

Halo 3 will dominate brawl hands down. Anyone but an insanely devoted nintendo fanboy can realize this. Halo is considered by the majority of casual gamers to be the greatest game ever made. Smash is pretty much only played by a select crowd. Casual gamers are the vast majority.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to ask or if you're just saying stuff, but the general opinion will be that halo 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSBB. The big point is who really cares what those people think, I think halo is dumb as hell. No matter how many people whose first console was the xbox try to tell me otherwise isn't going to effect whether I buy brawl or not.

I disagree. melee sold over 6 million. Thats far from " a select crowd" Halo 3 will probably outsell brawl, that' I'll agree with, but I don't think it's gonna be such a landslide like you're making it out to be.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Halo 2 uses a hitscan system to make it SEEM like there's less lag, but there isn't. It may look like the game is running smoothly but your bullets won't connect with the BR for instance, unless the reticule is red. A red reticule tells the host box that the shots connected no matter the lag--this is why it's possible to get shot after running behind walls and things like that, because the representation of the enemy's position on the client box isn't necessarily where he really is. This is a kind of work-around solution to lag that just brings up problems of its own, namely, shots hitting when they shouldn't, and the arbitrary switch in accuracy at the red reticule fadeout distance. When it goes blue, the game treats your bullets like projectiles and has to calculate whether they hit based on where the person actually is, not on where he appears to be on your screen. If the latency is low enough, these are usually quite close, so that, for instance, you can probably get a 5-shot kill with the BR, maybe even 4-shot, but at more normal latencies some of your shots will trail off the back of where you're aiming.

Things happen more quickly in fighting games so if they use a hitscan type system it would result in things like you getting hit after you put up your shield, getting hit during your invincibility frames, hitting someone after his invincibility frames run out but he's still invincible, etc. The game may appear to run smoothly but all kinds of weird **** will happen because of the misalignment between the host and client data.

If they use something more like a projectile system then you can expect things like hitting someone and nothing happening, because he wasn't really there according to the host.

The only other solution is to have a variable frame rate ala Dead or Alive 4, where the engine slows down during lag spikes. This will completely **** up your timing for any advanced techs by turning what should be a 4-frame tech, for instance, into an 8-frame tech. And you won't be able to adjust consistently because the amount of correction depends on the latency which isn't constant.

So any way they do it it's going to be dumb as hell.

 

[Red Exodus]

Wow, Shai makes online sound really bad. I've never played online but I've seen one guy play online and the game [GoW] glitched like hell, falling through floors, walking through mountains, you name it. I think online is best left to the casual crowd.

 

[Link226]

I find Halo extremely fun even though i dont really like X-box, Halo 3 is going to be amazing. Now dont get me wrong, SSBM will probably always be my favorite game ever. But only a Nintendo fanboy who is extremely biased and say stupid stuff like "The PS3 and 360 are a waste of time" and never played the system can say Brawl is going to be bigger than Halo 3. I really believe like 9 out of 10 people have played Halo at least once, and at school when i ask people about SSBM a lot of people would say they never heard of it. Halo 3 will be bigger than Brawl hands down.

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

Halo 2 uses a hitscan system to make it SEEM like there's less lag, but there isn't. It may look like the game is running smoothly but your bullets won't connect with the BR for instance, unless the reticule is red. A red reticule tells the host box that the shots connected no matter the lag--this is why it's possible to get shot after running behind walls and things like that, because the representation of the enemy's position on the client box isn't necessarily where he really is. This is a kind of work-around solution to lag that just brings up problems of its own, namely, shots hitting when they shouldn't, and the arbitrary switch in accuracy at the red reticule fadeout distance. When it goes blue, the game treats your bullets like projectiles and has to calculate whether they hit based on where the person actually is, not on where he appears to be on your screen. If the latency is low enough, these are usually quite close, so that, for instance, you can probably get a 5-shot kill with the BR, maybe even 4-shot, but at more normal latencies some of your shots will trail off the back of where you're aiming.

Things happen more quickly in fighting games so if they use a hitscan type system it would result in things like you getting hit after you put up your shield, getting hit during your invincibility frames, hitting someone after his invincibility frames run out but he's still invincible, etc. The game may appear to run smoothly but all kinds of weird **** will happen because of the misalignment between the host and client data.

If they use something more like a projectile system then you can expect things like hitting someone and nothing happening, because he wasn't really there according to the host.

The only other solution is to have a variable frame rate ala Dead or Alive 4, where the engine slows down during lag spikes. This will completely **** up your timing for any advanced techs by turning what should be a 4-frame tech, for instance, into an 8-frame tech. And you won't be able to adjust consistently because the amount of correction depends on the latency which isn't constant.

So any way they do it it's going to be dumb as hell.

Very wise young jedi.

 

[Sensai]

Shai....wow.

And out of those, which do you think Nintendo will opt for? If all that's really....accurate, then it doesn't look like any of them will be any good at all.

The last two don't sound as bad as the first, though.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Shai....wow.

And out of those, which do you think Nintendo will opt for? If all that's really....accurate, then it doesn't look like any of them will be any good at all.

The last two don't sound as bad as the first, though.

Actually have they even confirmed that there will be online functionality?

As for whether the game will use client-side (hitscan) or server-side (projectile) hit detection, I'd guess the latter but I really have no idea. I've only played a couple of fighting games online and it was always garbage.

They can do some things to ameliorate lag, like increasing hit-box size, slowing the game down, and making tech windows more forgiving, but if this is the price we have to pay for playable online, then I hope the online is terrible--because if they tweak the game engine to make it playable online, then that would mean the game will have lost its precision and competitive viability.

Oh, and something I just saw on the previous page--Nintendo honestly doesn't need to appease the competitive Smash community. We account for < 1% of Melee's sales. If making the game less competitive and more random brings in an extra 150,000 scrubs and loses the entire competitive community (which it wouldn't--most of us would buy the game anyway) then Nintendo will have gained over twice its losses.

I don't think Nintendo is intentionally going to dumb down Brawl, though. I'm mostly afraid it will be a byproduct of misdirected focus on things like specials, having numerous characters, and online capabilities.

 

[Sensai]

I never saw the announcement, but it seems like everyone thinks that. I think I saw something on Wikipedia, also. Yes, I know it's not always right, but they had a link to IGN or something. Feel free to check it out.

I'm not sure better online's going to determine the 'winner' between Smash and Halo 3...

 

[Infil]

They've essentially confirmed online, Shai.

Shai's assessment is correct, though; lag is a problem that will perpetually affect every online game. The more timing-sensitive ones, like fighting games, feel the wrath a bit more. But remember that this lag is largely affected by the physical distance between you and your opponent. You should be able to play people in your own city fairly effectively. Between the US and Japan, though, the lag will be unbearable. This is just a byproduct of the physical world.

But it's not all bad. Online will still be fun, even if you miss 1 out of 10 techs, right? Competitive smashers will always want to do the "real" tournaments live, but if we have a choice between zero online and a slightly suboptimal online, the choice should be fairly obvious. Heh, people are talking about constantly being bored and wanting higher level CPUs to fight against. Why not just go online then? I'd much rather fight a human with a few lag flaws (say, in my own state) than fight a so-called "intelligent" CPU that you can loop into doing the same stupid thing over and over.

Also note that it is very easy, with a well-built game engine, to only have larger hit boxes, more forgiving tech timing windows, and so on, during the online play. There is no reason to believe that Nintendo needs to dumb down the entire game, at all times, just so online will work.

Really, people, online will be a side issue, and if you can't stand the lag or you don't like what they've done, just don't play it. The rest of the game will remain untouched. And that's a guarantee.

 

[Red Exodus]

Infil, read one of Shai's post about changes necessary for online. It makes sense, some hitboxes are made bigger for online [ see Halo CE - Halo 2 hitboxes] some invicibility frames end too soon orv last too long, stuff like that. Online affects offline sometimes too, unless people use the 'if' values.

 

[Infil]

Red: It's possible such a thing could affect offline play, but it's by no means necessary. I mean, if you think about the worst case, they could release two entirely separate games, Brawl1 and Brawl2, and one is online exclusive and the other is not.

I'm not a Halo guru, so I'll take your word for it that the hitboxes are larger in normal play to make up for online lag. But there's definitely no requirement that Smash needs to follow the same principle.

 

[Sculelos]

Red: It's possible such a thing could affect offline play, but it's by no means necessary. I mean, if you think about the worst case, they could release two entirely separate games, Brawl1 and Brawl2, and one is online exclusive and the other is not.

I'm not a Halo guru, so I'll take your word for it that the hitboxes are larger in normal play to make up for online lag. But there's definitely no requirement that Smash needs to follow the same principle.

Besides, typically now with a good broadband connection I get 40-80 Milliseconds, I don't really think 2-4 frames will kill smash, sure it might make online a bit different, but I did play original smash online and when the other person had a decent connection I had some good matchups, only thing that drove me crazy is the game would have frame rate issues when played online, but I'm sure that the chars can blur to someplace else or something if they need to resync for some reason, I don't know but I'm sure if I can have a decent matchup in original smash I'm sure Brawl's will be execelent.

 

[Johnknight1]

Halo 2 uses a hitscan system to make it SEEM like there's less lag, but there isn't. It may look like the game is running smoothly but your bullets won't connect with the BR for instance, unless the reticule is red. A red reticule tells the host box that the shots connected no matter the lag--this is why it's possible to get shot after running behind walls and things like that, because the representation of the enemy's position on the client box isn't necessarily where he really is. This is a kind of work-around solution to lag that just brings up problems of its own, namely, shots hitting when they shouldn't, and the arbitrary switch in accuracy at the red reticule fadeout distance. When it goes blue, the game treats your bullets like projectiles and has to calculate whether they hit based on where the person actually is, not on where he appears to be on your screen. If the latency is low enough, these are usually quite close, so that, for instance, you can probably get a 5-shot kill with the BR, maybe even 4-shot, but at more normal latencies some of your shots will trail off the back of where you're aiming.

Things happen more quickly in fighting games so if they use a hitscan type system it would result in things like you getting hit after you put up your shield, getting hit during your invincibility frames, hitting someone after his invincibility frames run out but he's still invincible, etc. The game may appear to run smoothly but all kinds of weird **** will happen because of the misalignment between the host and client data.

If they use something more like a projectile system then you can expect things like hitting someone and nothing happening, because he wasn't really there according to the host.

The only other solution is to have a variable frame rate ala Dead or Alive 4, where the engine slows down during lag spikes. This will completely **** up your timing for any advanced techs by turning what should be a 4-frame tech, for instance, into an 8-frame tech. And you won't be able to adjust consistently because the amount of correction depends on the latency which isn't constant.

So any way they do it it's going to be dumb as hell.

Hmm...intresting with the whole hitscan deal. As for online sucking, I respectfully disagree. If you face someone withing the same city, or even county it won't affect you. From one side of a country to another it could affect you quite a bit. Diffrent sides of the planet, well it could lag about 10 frames easily.

Now that you mention it, I have noticed that a little. I doubt SSBB will have more lag than Halo 2, considering it is going to be probably slower paced. The far range combat is where GoW's combat mainly lies, and melee it has some issues. The opposite can be assumed.

Also for anyone whoever doubt SSBB will have online, I checked the official SSBB site and it says (not saying anyone doubts online, just proving a point) that the president of Nintendo had the game originally to kick off the Wi-Fi Network. I think they plan to follow through with this, considering it sold more than Halo 1.

The lag issue won't be a issue for people in your same county or city, even in you're same state it won't affect you much. Also the whole brawl 1 & 2 issue I am really thinking there will be extra downloadable content after SSBB's release.

Halo 2 has 1 expansion pack coming out soon, and has alrdy had 2 or 3 alrdy. I really think if SSBB has expansion packs/downloadable content, expect new courses, items, features, and most likely new/returning courses.

I think Nintendo could use this more to their advantage, returning old courses, slightly modified (better camera angles mainly). All in all, expect the Wii to have SSBB as their launch title of the new Wi-Fi Network (i guess it like PS network or Xbox Live). So the online multiplayer is expected for SSBB!

 

[Sensai]

Johnknight1, I'm pretty sure we've all established that it will affect you in some way, regardless of how minor.

Even if it's only two frames, that's still enough for an error in who's shine hits first.

 

[Johnknight1]

Johnknight1, I'm pretty sure we've all established that it will affect you in some way, regardless of how minor.

Even if it's only two frames, that's still enough for an error in who's shine hits first.

That is where the slowed gameplay comes in (I guess). Or just a simple reconnect or something like that. Needless to say, I'll stick to local online, or closeby opponents most of the time, easily. I think that is what most players will probably do. I don't want the lag, and that is where it is minimalized. That isn't going to have much of an impact, especially with anything from DSL up.

 

[Shai Hulud]

That is where the slowed gameplay comes in (I guess). Or just a simple reconnect or something like that. Needless to say, I'll stick to local online, or closeby opponents most of the time, easily. I think that is what most players will probably do. I don't want the lag, and that is where it is minimalized. That isn't going to have much of an impact, especially with anything from DSL up.

Dude. Smashers don't use non-CRT HDTVs because they lag. Even when it's just 1 - 2 frames, which is better than what you're going to get playing Brawl with your next-door neighbor. Trust me.