Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[IntelliHeath1]

You better become fixated with the moon, since June 11 is doomsday for the forums. The world of forums will be destroyed in a cataclysmic impact that may never recover for many generations.

Spoiler

Not that's a bad thing mind you.

Ugh, why you must add times to it. It made me feel that it will be so forever to get there. 161 days to go.

 

[Deleted member]

i Got 3 Questions for Ya'll

1.Do you think Sm4sh 3DS will come out in 2013?

2.Do you think they will come out together? (that would be bad..)

3.Are you getting both versions?

You and your 3 questions... Hahaha, every time man.

Anyway,

1. Nah, I say both come out by Summer 2014 at the earliest.

2. Yeah, I think they'll get either a same time release, or same Quarter, that's IF they go through with the dual platform game idea.

3. Depends... I don't know anything about the games yet, so I can't say.




On another subject, lets talk about mechanics. What sorts of things would you like to see implemented?


Personally, I could go for some:
High Jumps,
Air Throws,
Air Dashes,
Strings and Combos,
Dash, Jump and Special Canceling,
Faster Game speed,
character specific Shield durability,
and Multiple, balanced Final Smashes that can be either gained through Smash Balls, or Meter based like in other fighters.

Also, Assist Trophies should be much more than glorified Pokeballs, something like the Support Koma system in the Jump series could be neat.

 

[Double Helix]

You and your 3 questions... Hahaha, every time man.

Anyway,

1. Nah, I say both come out by Summer 2014 at the earliest.

2. Yeah, I think they'll get either a same time release, or same Quarter, that's IF they go through with the dual platform game idea.

3. Depends... I don't know anything about the games yet, so I can't say.




On another subject, lets talk about mechanics. What sorts of things would you like to see implemented?


Personally, I could go for some:
High Jumps,
Air Throws,
Air Dashes,
Strings and Combos,
Dash, Jump and Special Canceling,
Faster Game speed,
character specific Shield durability,
and Multiple, balanced Final Smashes that can be either gained through Smash Balls, or Meter based like in other fighters.

Also, Assist Trophies should be much more than glorified Pokeballs, something like the Support Koma system in the Jump series could be neat.

Honestly...I personally don't like the idea of high jumps (you can already double jump). I think air throws are a good idea, however I think they should be implemented as a command grab (like falcon's up-B) and I don't believe every character should have them. The lack of set combos is something that sets smash bros apart from other fighting games, though some attacks naturally string together. The character specific shield durability would be good, but I feel like that problem is address by the character's weight having an affect on how far they fly. When you say "faster game speed" do you mean melee as opposed to brawl or something more along the line of movement speed or attack speed?

I think that meter should be left out for two reasons. The biggest reason is Playstation All-Stars. The other reason is I feel like the smash balls did fine as an item. I agree that the assist trophies are a bit lacking. It just allowed them to not be pokemon. What other items would you like to see (whether new or brought back) and what would you like to see removed from the item list?

I miss the red shell a lot.
I'm really not sure if I would add any others though I would be really happy if the smoke ball did something useful or did not return.

 

[Big-Cat]

Everything you said except for maybe specific shield durability.

I want the shield system changed to where it only covers around half the character's body at any given time. It never shrinks and grows darker like Yoshi's current shield. This makes it where blocking is actually hitbox based as opposed to being high, mid, or low so it's actually easier to understand blocking. This allows for 50/50 attack mixups and even crossups which I love.

We also need to have tech throws. How to go about exactly I don't know. Do we go like 3D fighters where you guess which specific throw or like 2D fighters where is simply one counter for any given throw (sans command grabs).

Finally, I'd like DI to be simplified. Instead of having the ability to, in theory, DI in any possible direction, I'd like it narrowed to no more than three directions such that it's easier to balance them and that there isn't a magic angle to get out of any followups. Also, I'd like if not every move had DI in it. This way, it adds more depth to combo enders for whether you want to opt for high damage or mixups.

@Double Helix
There's already plenty of things that set Smash apart from other games. Strings, especially if they behave like 3D Fighter strings where not all are natural combos, would really help the ground game a lot and help speed things up just in terms of how long it takes to kill someone. One thing that irritates me with a lot of the Smash community is that they look too much at the details for making everyone unique when the characters are really more than the sum of their parts.

 

[vicgur]

I was playing Playstation All Stars Battle Royale and its mechanics kept me thinking... Those who played it [or who know how it works] will understand


In the Game Cube controller layout, Smash Bros. uses 2 buttons [X & Y] for jumping... Isn't it kind of a waste of one good button?
One of those buttons could be a second special button, or something like that.
That would add a variety of new tricks to every character, and even make the old characters feel a lot more fresh.

I dunno, just my opinion.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's been tossed around a few times. Two attack buttons and a special button could work depending on the mechanics of Smash 4.

 

[~automatic]

On another subject, lets talk about mechanics. What sorts of things would you like to see implemented?

Personally, I could go for some:
High Jumps,
Air Throws,
Air Dashes,
Strings and Combos,
Dash, Jump and Special Canceling,
Faster Game speed,
character specific Shield durability,
and Multiple, balanced Final Smashes that can be either gained through Smash Balls, or Meter based like in other fighters.

- We already have two jumps which heights you can control. Adding an extra jump mechanic to jump higher seems unnecessary to me.

- Air throws in the form of alternate aerial animations for >B moves (e.g. PM Lucario or vBrawl Ganondorf) would be cool for certain characters in order to solidify play styles or to differentiate a character from a clone.

- Air dashes would make it too easy to come back on stage unless you only get a single directional dodge which leaves you unable to move like in Melee.

- Traditional strings and combos have no place in Smash as it is right now. Smash is meant to have the freedom of movement of a platformer with a simple beat 'em up attack system. Improvisation, prediction, offensiveness and great execution are part of what makes name Smash combos so spectacular.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXx3QlbyjGA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEJJAMwgmQY

- Cancelling could make a comeback in a more intuitive form than L cancelling. Something akin to Brawl's buffering (but tweaked to actually end inputs) would work fine since it lends itself to the controller scheme.

- Game speed that is faster than Brawl would be good but Brawl wasn't unbearably slow so whatever.

- Specific shield durability is one of the more interesting ideas I've seen but shield durability has never been an issue in a character being way above or below others.

- Yeah whatever, more final smashes. *Shrugs*

 

[Deleted member]

I want the shield system changed to where it only covers around half the character's body at any given time. It never shrinks and grows darker like Yoshi's current shield. This makes it where blocking is actually hitbox based as opposed to being high, mid, or low so it's actually easier to understand blocking. This allows for 50/50 attack mixups and even crossups which I love.

We also need to have tech throws. How to go about exactly I don't know. Do we go like 3D fighters where you guess which specific throw or like 2D fighters where is simply one counter for any given throw (sans command grabs).

Finally, I'd like DI to be simplified. Instead of having the ability to, in theory, DI in any possible direction, I'd like it narrowed to no more than three directions such that it's easier to balance them and that there isn't a magic angle to get out of any followups. Also, I'd like if not every move had DI in it. This way, it adds more depth to combo enders for whether you want to opt for high damage or mixups.

I feel that blocking mechanic (as much as I hate to say it) may be too complex to Smash, when I got into other fighters, coming from a Smash background, one of the toughest things getting used to at first was the low/high block mechanics. Sure, I could learn it for Smash, but it might be a little too complex for the casual crowd to handle. Most of the other mechanics I mentioned are not too intrusive. But blocking is a larger part of a fighter, I can see people getting pissed off at getting hit despite blocking because they went for a high block when the computer did a sweep or something. The simplicity of Smash's block mechanics are what make it easy to learn. I understand where you're coming from, pulling off High-Low combinations in 2D fighters is very rewarding, but think of the poor casuals on this one...

Agreed on the DI and strings though.

Honestly...I personally don't like the idea of high jumps (you can already double jump). I think air throws are a good idea, however I think they should be implemented as a command grab (like falcon's up-B) and I don't believe every character should have them. The lack of set combos is something that sets smash bros apart from other fighting games, though some attacks naturally string together. The character specific shield durability would be good, but I feel like that problem is address by the character's weight having an affect on how far they fly. When you say "faster game speed" do you mean melee as opposed to brawl or something more along the line of movement speed or attack speed?

I think that meter should be left out for two reasons. The biggest reason is Playstation All-Stars. The other reason is I feel like the smash balls did fine as an item. I agree that the assist trophies are a bit lacking. It just allowed them to not be pokemon. What other items would you like to see (whether new or brought back) and what would you like to see removed from the item list?

I miss the red shell a lot.
I'm really not sure if I would add any others though I would be really happy if the smoke ball did something useful or did not return.

How does PSABR having a meter in any way affect Smash? Sony didn't invent meters in fighters, Street Fighter had them LONG before Sony decided to get in on it. Also, I think Sony accusing Nintendo of copying ideas is a bit absurd this far in the game, considering how many ideas of theirs were literally rip-offs from Nintendo innovations, from a 4 button controller, to the Analog Stick, to Motion controls, the list goes on...

The reason why I'd like to allow Final Smashes to be buildable through meters as well as items, is so that they get balanced (as in no FS is a free kill anymore, more like SF4 Ultras, where the more damage you take, the more they build, thus adding suspense, but the damage they do isn't game breaking), and can hopefully see the light of day in competitive play.

As far as items go... I hardly ever play with them on, so I don't care what they add or remove really.

- We already have two jumps which heights you can control. Adding an extra jump mechanic to jump higher seems unnecessary to me.

- Air throws in the form of alternate aerial animations for >B moves (e.g. PM Lucario or vBrawl Ganondorf) would be cool for certain characters in order to solidify play styles or to differentiate a character from a clone.

- Air dashes would make it too easy to come back on stage unless you only get a single directional dodge which leaves you unable to move like in Melee.

- Traditional strings and combos have no place in Smash as it is right now. Smash is meant to have the freedom of movement of a platformer with a simple beat 'em up attack system. Improvisation, prediction, offensiveness and great execution are part of what makes name Smash combos so spectacular.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXx3QlbyjGA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEJJAMwgmQY

- Cancelling could make a comeback in a more intuitive form than L cancelling. Something akin to Brawl's buffering (but tweaked to actually end inputs) would work fine since it lends itself to the controller scheme.

- Game speed that is faster than Brawl would be good but Brawl wasn't unbearably slow so whatever.

- Specific shield durability is one of the more interesting ideas I've seen but shield durability has never been an issue in a character being way above or below others.

- Yeah whatever, more final smashes. *Shrugs*

High Jumps:
I wanted to address this here that way I kill two birds with one stone. We do have two jumps, you're right, but so do many other fighters, and they also include High Jumps. The difference is that High Jumps are a special command a little more complex that a normal jump that allows for very quick follow ups and aerial combos. The catch is that High Jumps can only be performed on the first jump and only from the ground. So it doesn't affect recovery in any way. Only Ground to Air transitions, combine with with Jump cancels and you have some neat combo/juggle potential. Think of it as the OPPOSITE to L-Cancels. This is especially helpful for characters with slower jumps and falls speeds as they now have the means to do quick air follow ups. How to do it? Well In most fighters it's usually down then up. In Smash, you could do Uptilt+Jump?

Air Throws: No, I mean like in video related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP8SFqGWHZA), though not as broken (they fixed that in the later installments). A large portion of fighting game out there have these and Smash Bros, which has a very large focus on aerial combat could really benefit from adding more tools to expand aerial combat. Obviously you would only have forward and back air throws which act immediately like in the video I posted. I just say, press the grab button in midair while titling forward or back to do an air throw. You obviously have to be near an opponent to get them to activate, and if you miss it wiffs and not only are you wide open to a counter attack, but you also get your -500 bonus points post battle for "Butterfingers."

Air Dash
Air Dashes would be used in place of your second jump, the number of Dashes, and distance each dash gets depends on how many jumps your character has (Kirby obviously gets 4), and how high they can normally Jump (Falco gets nice distance from his air dashes, Kirby or Meta Knight... Not so much). This way they are used for what they're intended to, combos/evasion, not so much for recovery, though they might be helpful in sticky situations. You only get two directions like in GG and BB, forward and back at a 180 degree horizon, no angular Dashes. I think either Jump+Smashing/Tilting the Stick, or Air Dodge+Smashing/Tilting the Stick could work well. I lean more toward the latter, that way there are no mistaken registers, and that way you can't Air Dodge during and Air Dash, thus making Air combat more strategic.

With these three tools you now give Smash Bros its much desired focus on Aerial play without slowing down the engine to molasses. When I say increase Speed, I simply mean faster than Brawl's slow play. If Brawl was SF4, and Melee Guilty Gear, then an in-between Blazblue speed that's fast enough to keep it tense, but slow enough to make it strategic is a nice sweet spot.

Canceling, Combos and Strings:
I never liked L-canceling to be honest it gave to much of an edge to the characters that had good air play, and with Melee's lack of decent anti-air moves many characters suffered from this and it further divided the tiers. I think landing Lag should stay, it is a nice restriction to allow slower or more ground focused characters to have some edge. Jump cancel as the opposite is nice, canceling your ground techs with a jump to follow up gives them a similar edge, but not as broken. Dash Cancels and Special Cancels are a must in allowing certain combos and strings to be possible. Not too difficult to learn or implement, but certainly very useful in bringing real strings and combos to Smash. I know what you mean about Smash combos being more intuitive, and I agree, but certain characters would really benefit from being able to chain moves together. There is no reason to be restricted by the boring 1-2 MASH the A button combo, and not being able to flow into tilts more easily. Certain moves SHOULD flow more easily. This is necessary for establishing good Ground play, and giving non Air based characters more of an edge. It is a way of balancing the game so that certain characters that meet certain requirements don't dominate the game like they have in previous games. Take Ike for example, he's a slow powerhouse, but part of the main reason he suffers isn't because he's slow, it is because most of his more useful moves have this really slow start-up lag that makes him being any good, more a matter of being lucky and catching your opponent with them, than a subject of skill. If Ike for example could go from is 5A jab combo, to Dtilt, after the second hit and finally an Uptilt or Smash Attack he would be much more of a force to deal with than he is now. Would he be broken? Certainly not, he sticks by his archetype, the slow-Powerhouse, but there is no excuse for slow characters to suck simply because they lack the speed to keep up with foes. Combos help balance this out and give slower characters more of an edge, and it makes Ground play also more strategic.

One last thing, added focus on Air Play means ALL characters will need at LEAST ONE Anti-Air move/jab, be it Forward tilt, Up tilt, Up Special, I don't care, you can't have air focus, and not include AA moves, this is something we've needed since Smash 64, not ALL characters come with good quick AA.

Final Smashes:
See previous reply.

I was playing Playstation All Stars Battle Royale and its mechanics kept me thinking... Those who played it [or who know how it works] will understand


In the Game Cube controller layout, Smash Bros. uses 2 buttons [X & Y] for jumping... Isn't it kind of a waste of one good button?
One of those buttons could be a second special button, or something like that.
That would add a variety of new tricks to every character, and even make the old characters feel a lot more fresh.

I dunno, just my opinion.

I think they SHOULD do something with all the extra buttons, the WiiU Pro has 2 more buttons than the GCN, to that add the 3 already unused buttons we have on that controller and you have a total of 5 buttons that can still be used for something.

I think that on the WiiU, the Gamepad (the + not the screen) and the Stick should both be used for the same thing. Taunting should have a specific button and the directional inputs give you a different taunt. Having the option of Pad and Stick could be great for some personalization.

Two special buttons seems odd, and Smash should definitely stay away from the Arcade 236 and the like inputs. We already have a weak/strong division with tilts and Smash attacks.

Though many 6 button fighters have weak, medium, heavy punch/kick variations.

Guilty Gear does: punch, kick, slash, heavy slash, dust, respect. With dust being the special/launcher and respect a sort of taunt.

Blazblue does weak, medium, heavy, special.

Smash could do that. weak fast tilts, and medium/heavy tilts on another button, specials still get assigned to one button, and Smash attacks remain on the medium/heavy tilts button. Jump is the last button. R1 is grab, R2 is block/dodge/air dodge/air dash. L1 is to activate the Final Smash, L2 for taunts. The Second stick is for shorcuts with uncharged Smash Attacks being the default. Double tapping on the pad is the same as Smashing the stick. Up+Jump is high jump... And all your attacks barring Smash attacks have 5,4/6,2,8 variations (look at your numberpad if this confuses you), with medium tilts getting an additional Dash attack. Some characters will still keep their preset combos with the 5 medium tilt. Did I miss anything? Oh, obviously all the button commands can be customized in an options screen and saved to an account. I've never heard of a fighter that didn't allow that these days.

On final Smashes, this is how I want them to work, you can choose the FS a la SF Alpha 3 'isms,' where after choosing your character, you choose their Super move. One is a power-up ability or transformation like Warioman, that boosts their attributes, one is a Super Move like Samus' Beam the like, and the Final one is a premade Combo, like Great Aether and the like. All of them are balanced so that no FS is too strong. Most will do a good 50% damage and do decent knockback, at high percent it will kill if you get hit, IF you get hit. However, they shouldn't be game breaking. Building up the meter should be difficult. A, you can collect Smash Balls, 3 Smash balls, fill up your meter. Or B. you can have an option to where the meter builds the more damage you take, a la SF4. It should take a good 200% damage to get a full meter. In a 3 stock battle you may see one FS, or none at all.

Likewise, you can also use the meter to summon Assist Trophy support. No longer glorified Pokeballs, ATs are now picked before a fight. Before you choose a stage, you have an option to choose ONE AT from a list. Using and AT will take up 50% of you Smash meter, and you must have at least that much to be able to use them, but not 100% as a full meter will always give you a FS. ATs range from balanced to broken... But certain ATs can be banned from tourney play, likewise this whole thing can be take out from competitive play if it proves too broken (both ATs and FS should still remain a toggle option), however the idea is to make both viable options. ATs function like in the Jump series, some cause status effect on you or your opponents, some distract them by attacking, some also heal you a bit.

The Smash Meter, is just a non-intrusive, circular meter that surrounds your Damage %. You can tell how much you have based on how much of the circle is filled. When it's completely full, it will flash (no more darkening the screen, I hated that in Brawl).

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Just because we have a few extra doesn't mean we should be scrambling to find uses for them. The current Smash button set is just fine IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

Just because we have a few extra doesn't mean we should be scrambling to find uses for them. The current Smash button set is just fine IMO.

I was just elaborating on his idea. It can get a bit too complex, but you're really just adding one more button so it's not too bad. I think dedicating a button to taunts and freeing up the gamepad is a good idea though.

The reason why Smash is a 2 button fighter is because that was how many MAIN buttons the N64 controller had, the C-Buttons were too far off to be realistically plausible, and it did feel a bit strange on the GCN having two jump buttons, and it it will even more on the WiiU Pro, so why not add one more neutral attack. Divide the tilts between Weak and Strong, across two buttons filling in the extra tilts. Really, you're adding 4 extra moves for each character. 4 neutral moves at that.

Example:
[COLLAPSE="PRO"]

[/COLLAPSE]

A= Strong Tilts
B= Weak Tilts
Y= Specials
X= Jumps

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Smash attacks already fill any role that 'strong tilts' would IMO. I don't see the need to add an additional 14 moves to a characters movepool just to use an extra button.

 

[Wario Bros.]

I doubt we'll get a third attack button as the current button layout is just fine the way it is and it sounds like too big of a jump for veterans.

Here is how I'll have my controls with the ABXY buttons for Sm4sh (implies to 3DS version and the Wii U version both GamePad & Pro Controller):

A= Grab
B= Normal Attack
X= Jump
Y= Special Attack
Everything else will not change

I have to thank Cartoon Network: Punch Time Explosion for the 3DS for introducing this button layout to me.

 

[Deleted member]

Smash attacks already fill any role that 'strong tilts' would IMO. I don't see the need to add an additional 14 moves to a characters movepool just to use an extra button.

No no, I mean Strong Tilts = Current Tilts, Weak Tilts = Weaker, Faster attacks. You're also not adding 14 moves... Just 4. 5/6/3/8, not Dash no Smash, well, Air Attacks too, so 9 Attacks, but it's the same thing, faster weaker attacks.

I doubt we'll get a third attack button as the current button layout is just fine the way it is and it sounds like too big of a jump for veterans.

Here is how I'll have my controls with the ABXY buttons for Sm4sh (implies to 3DS version and the Wii U version both GamePad & Pro Controller):

A= Grab
B= Normal Attack
X= Jump
Y= Special Attack
Everything else will not change

I have to thank Cartoon Network: Punch Time Explosion for the 3DS for introducing this button layout to me.

There's also that. I but I think Grabbing as a Shoulder button works best. I actually wonder what they'll do for the 3DS, the Joystick on that is too flimsy to be Smashed all the time.


Anyway, the controls or a new attack button don't matter too much to me, it was just a thought exercise.

The other mechanics though, would be incredible.

 

[Wario Bros.]

There's also that. I but I think Grabbing as a Shoulder button works best. I actually wonder what they'll do for the 3DS, the Joystick on that is too flimsy to be Smashed all the time.

Like I said, the ABXY button layout I posted (as well as L & R was shield) was taken from Type A of the control setup for that Cartoon Network: Punch Time Explosion game for the 3DS (a game that completely knocks off Super Smash Bros. in almost every way and did not use the Circle Pad Pro accessory). Ever since I played that game I've been using that button layout on all Smash Bros. games I've played (even on Super Smash Flash 2 and Super Smash Bros. Crusade with my Logitech Gamepad).

 

[Dark Phazon]

All these ideas are great! i have read em all! i really hope they do this..they might..slime chance..but it could be there way to opening the game up for Hardcore and Casuals thats if there thinking of even doing that..

This is all to far of a guess imo..but great none of the less.

 

[Big-Cat]

- Traditional strings and combos have no place in Smash as it is right now. Smash is meant to have the freedom of movement of a platformer with a simple beat 'em up attack system. Improvisation, prediction, offensiveness and great execution are part of what makes name Smash combos so spectacular.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXx3QlbyjGA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEJJAMwgmQY

The same applies to other fighting games. A common misconception about strings is that they're built-in combos when this is typically not the case. In reality, most strings can be blocked after the first or second hit. This makes it where strings or just part of them are used as part of a combo, but this depends on your current conditions. Like, how far are you from the walls, ring, hit on counter, hit out of the air, etc.

The only real difference is that Smash has DI on every single move (is this really needed?) so combos are really just glorified vortexes.

 

[Arcadenik]

Have anyone thought about how the Game Pad might affect the game? Like maybe using the Game Pad to cause hazards to occur in the stage while the other four players are in a match?

 

[Big-Cat]

I suggested that once. It was awful. /Grumpy Cat

 

[Deleted member]

Well, it might make for a nice gimmick during casual play, but it would be kinda strange to be in a Smash Bros game with out a fighter...

Then again, the game pad could be like Master Hand or something.

In fact, I wonder how many players Smash 4 will support. Can't the WiiU have up to 6 players at the same time in theory?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

In fact, I wonder how many players Smash 4 will support. Can't the WiiU have up to 6 players at the same time in theory?

In theory, though currently there are no games that support any more than 5, and Nintendo does not sell gamepads separately from consoles. Also, connecting more tablet controllers to the Wii U apparently causes performance to drop significantly.

 

[FlareHabanero]

One thing I would expect the GamePad to do is basically be the menu that can be interacted with by using the touch screen. When the GamePad is used for the menu, the television screen would display some sort of cosmetic flare depending on what you are doing. One thing in particular I would like to see is the return of the brief character animations on the character select screen like in Super Smash Bros.

 

[Deleted member]

One thing I would expect the GamePad to do is basically be the menu that can be interacted with by using the touch screen. When the GamePad is used for the menu, the television screen would display some sort of cosmetic flare depending on what you are doing. One thing in particular I would like to see is the return of the brief character animations on the character select screen like in Super Smash Bros.

I could actually expect the the touch screen to play a slightly more important role than expected. Since the 3DS also has a touch screen and this is supposed to be a cross platform game.

Then again, as shinpichu said, two tablet controllers cause a huge strain on the system and drop performance quite a lot...

 

[Gamingboy]

I'm guessing five, but with four being the maximum you can have with everybody using the same style of controller.

 

[Muhti]

And Smash 4 is not going to be called SMASH BROS U by any means. Sakurai can do and will do much better than that.

It would be actually funny if it was called SMU.

I would love to see your face when it happens.

 

[Wario Bros.]

It would be actually funny if it was called SMU.

I would love to see your face when it happens.

I would be disappointed but not mad. As long as the game is in there and it's amazing I don't care what it's called. Plus the person I was referring to on that title seemed noobish and not that well educated so I kinda angrily posted him that.

 

[Deleted member]

It would be actually funny if it was called SMU.

I would love to see your face when it happens.

Super Smash Bros. Universe

Spoiler

Kerfuffle

.

You heard it here first folks.

 

[~automatic]

The same applies to other fighting games. A common misconception about strings is that they're built-in combos when this is typically not the case. In reality, most strings can be blocked after the first or second hit. This makes it where strings or just part of them are used as part of a combo, but this depends on your current conditions. Like, how far are you from the walls, ring, hit on counter, hit out of the air, etc.

True; but upon landing a hit you have a set of options which will always connect under certain circumstances assuming you execute properly and/or aren't blocked which can lead to X action (be it an extra hit, set combo, reset, grab etc etc) by the attacking player. You can't have these static options present all the in Smash due to the increasing knockback.

And yes, DI is necessary imo. It's a way to escape combos, survive at high % and it forces the offensive player to successfully predict and chase to seek more rewards.

Have anyone thought about how the Game Pad might affect the game? Like maybe using the Game Pad to cause hazards to occur in the stage while the other four players are in a match?

You can make players trip with the gamepad and you can't be a puta about it because it's not random tripping.

Make it happen Sakurai-sama!

 

[Deleted member]

True; but upon landing a hit you have a set of options which will always connect under certain circumstances assuming you execute properly and/or aren't blocked which can lead to X action (be it an extra hit, set combo, reset, grab etc etc) by the attacking player. You can't have these static options present all the in Smash due to the increasing knockback.

And yes, DI is necessary imo. It's a way to escape combos, survive at high % and it forces the offensive player to successfully predict and chase to seek more rewards.

I agree, DI should stay, but there is no reason Combos and Strings can't be added. The current game mechanics give wayyy too much benefit to faster characters that have strong aerial presence. The only way to compensate for this is by slowing down the engine. Adding combos can work very well at early damages, and at higher damages the faster characters can focus on chase and the slower characters in bait game.

To quote myself in another thread:

Most of it comes down to Smash Bros' mechanics to be honest. The fact that the game has a huge disregard for traditional strings and combos is very detrimental for characters with slow mobility. The only way they stand any chance is if you slow the engine down and give them the broken ability to chain grab by making them very grapple heavy. I can guarantee that Dedede would become absolute garbage if the game engine is speed up to just halfway between Brawl and Melee.

I talked about this over in the General Thread, but Ike is a perfect example of a character who lacks the ability to use his power to full potential because most of his strong hits break down into getting lucky when landing powerful blows, thus he remains as a very mediocre character who needs an awkward playstyle to be any good. If characters were allowed to chain among their tilts (e.g. for Ike: 5A>5A>2A>8A>8Smash), heavy characters would have much more of an edge. This combined with good defenses (less knockback, less damage, less hitstun), some fast pokes, and some good Anti-Air, and suddenly you balance out the roster.

Anyway, I get more in-depth about it over at the General Thread, mentioning a bunch of desired mechanics. Of course a lot of those would require Sakurai to take a very competitive mindset with Smash 4, or the Smash franchise getting a reboot (hence my question last page), but maybe Namco can at least throw us a bone here.

The problem with that is that trying to find the right balance between giving the heavyweights just the right amount of Power and Speed must be a HUGE balancing pain in the ***. Make their attacks too good, and suddenly they're Broken. Try taking on a Heavyweight Metalized foe with a light-weight, it's no easy task. Your best bet it to push them off the edge, but their attacks ****ING HURT. I believe making heavy characters too strong is precisely what Sakurai has been wanting to avoid all along, and why he's been nerfing them so much. In a game where you earn kills by playing King of the Hill, obviously heavyweights have a natural edge, we all saw how easily Ganondorf becomes a High-Tier character in Melee.

This can all simply be solved by allowing ALL characters to chain and string attacks. Sure at high damages close range combos are useless thanks to the added knockback, but thats the beauty of it, it adds a very nice degree of fluidity and diversity in regard to combat. Heavy characters are not meant to chase down opponents. They're meant to defend, giving them faster attacks alone isn't likely to fix much of the problem, they need a number of things to balance things out, don't forget Smash's fixation on aerial prowess. Heavy to Lightweight, Air to Ground, Offense to Defense and all the in-betweens these are all diverse aspects of combat in this game, and ALL need to be balanced. You can't have a game where the heavyweights need to be modified into awkward Offensive characters because it won't work. That's not what they're supposed to specialize in.

I think the fact that Namco was hired to work on balancing is a good sign we may get some new "more competitive" mechanics to play with.

Leaving Sakurai to worry simply about dealing with the creative ideas of Smash Bros.

This I think, is a nice balance in regard to development, and may bring fruition to many other things as well.

Personally, I think that Smash 4 being Melee 2.0 is a bad thing. As much as I love Melee, the game has its flaws and Smash 4 would be better off finding its own identity, than trying to copy it like Zelda copies OoT and Mario SMB3. When you try to do this, the games begin to lack soul and simply become empty shells. Sure they may be THE BEST EVAR in appearance, but many of the fundamental things that made the original good, are now missing. Perfect examples of what I mean are Skyward Sword and New Super Mario Bros Wii/Super Mario 3D Land.

A more competitive focus wouldn't hurt though. The casuals will eat up just about anything you throw at them if it's hyped enough, so Sakurai shouldn't worry about "making the game too hard" or other crap like that. Hopefully with Namco on board the game will take the direction it needs to take. I'm certainly hopeful for that.

My dream game would have been if Aksys and Arc System Works were brought on board to work on mechanics and balance instead of Namco, though Tekken 6, TTT2 and SC are all great games so we'll see what we get.

 

[Big-Cat]

True; but upon landing a hit you have a set of options which will always connect under certain circumstances assuming you execute properly and/or aren't blocked which can lead to X action (be it an extra hit, set combo, reset, grab etc etc) by the attacking player. You can't have these static options present all the in Smash due to the increasing knockback.

And yes, DI is necessary imo. It's a way to escape combos, survive at high % and it forces the offensive player to successfully predict and chase to seek more rewards.

That's not too different from DI in theory. When I hit you, you can use DI to go in any direction and that leaves me with some option guessing where you go. Likewise, there are only so many options you can do.

I'm not saying that DI should go away. Rather, it needs to be looked at once more. In my opinion, DI should be like the wakeup game in fighting games. You should only have a set amount of directions you can DI with depending on the attack (and let training mode identify these) and that DI should be granted not on every move - this would be making the distinction between hard and soft knockdowns in Street Fighter. The thing I don't like about DI right now is that it is too open ended. Leave it as it is, and people can find the "magic angle" they can DI out of a particular move or certain moves like Zelda's USmash remain useless because you can SDI out by the second or third hit. Which reminds me, do we really need the distinction between DI and SDI?

Anyway, I think by going with my suggestion, it's actually easier to balance the game because DI now becomes a game of rock-paper-scissors. I guess right, I get another combo. I guess wrong, you're free to hit me.

 

[vicgur]

Have anyone thought about how the Game Pad might affect the game? Like maybe using the Game Pad to cause hazards to occur in the stage while the other four players are in a match?

There could be a whole "Asymmetric Gameplay" mode, where as the controller players fight the Gamepad player plays God and acts like the game, summoning any items wherever he/she wants, choosing what kind of Pokémon will come out of the Pokéballs, controlling the path of the Smash Balls, he could even choose if barrels would explode or carry items when thrown...
He could be a total a**hole to one specific player or even to everybody, if he/she wants.

 

[FlappyFalco]

There could be a whole "Asymmetric Gameplay" mode, where as the controller players fight the Gamepad player plays God and acts like the game, summoning any items wherever he/she wants, choosing what kind of Pokémon will come out of the Pokéballs, controlling the path of the Smash Balls, he could even choose if barrels would explode or carry items when thrown...
He could be a total a**hole to one specific player or even to everybody, if he/she wants.

This has been brought up at least 3 times already.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Well, the potential to a complete jerk should always be recited. It's pretty much unavoidable.

 

[vicgur]

This has been brought up at least 3 times already.

I do know how obvious it can get. But hey, we ARE out of things to talk about, aren't we?
If you have anything to add to the conversation that wasn't repeated at least 5 times before, be my guest.

Well, the potential to a complete jerk should always be recited. It's pretty much unavoidable.

I do love being a jerk to my friends...

 

[~automatic]

If you have anything to add to the conversation that wasn't repeated at least 5 times before, be my guest.

I heard about this guy who invented a car that runs on water. Its fiber glass, air cooled and it runs on water!

 

[FlareHabanero]

It runs on water only? Not root beer or ginger ale?

 

[Big-Cat]

You could probably bend the water out of those, assuming the car is capable of water bending.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Didn't we learn anything from Avatar?

Make cars that run on water, water benders will use them against you.

Dirty water benders. I'd bend them.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Considering that around 55% to 78% of the human body consists of water, I'd say water bending a human would be quite fatal. Just a little tiny bit.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Considering that around 55% to 78% of the human's body consists of water, I'd say water bending a human would be quite fatal. Just a little tiny bit.

They're called bloodbenders...

Spoiler

Not exactly what I meant by that though

 

[vicgur]

This conversation is the reason I keep coming back to this forum.