Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[Diddy Kong]

If they cut Ike, I'll go ape****.

If they cut Diddy, I'll boycot Smash forever.

I don't really give a thing about the rest.

 

[otter]

I am not sure why they would be suddenly able to reference the cartoon though.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Diddy's here to stay. Ike is the only one possibly in danger, but I'm not worried a lot about him. Honestly, regardless of the who the FE characters, assuming it's not just Roy, Roy could easily be a costume for Ike. Ike's actual moveset with exception of Aether and Great Aether fits Roy surprisingly well. It helps that he's all Fire-related. Alternatively, Ike's Brawl moveset(with the exceptions I mentioned) could be added to Roy and they could make Ike far more different. Including projectiles, something not shown on any FE character yet. Or make Ike axe-based. ...Or was that Chrom that had Axes?

And yeah, I'm still doubting any veteran with two or more Smash Bros. games behind their belt are likely to leave.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Roy is not so easily made into a power character like Ike though. Ike has his rough fighting style, being a mercenary and having Ragnell as strong points being portraited in Smash as it is. Also, a lot of his moves directly come from his games. Roy would be much better of as a semi-clone of Marth. It fits him much better.

Ike shouldn't have been fire-based anyway... If anything, make the Eruption have blue flames. As he's the Hero of Blue Flames. And yes, Ike uses axes as well as Swords. At least, in Radiant Dawn. Chrom uses Swords and Lances.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, you gotta admit, Ike's moveset does look like something that could be Roy's and it'd make sense. You know, being power-type characters and all.

And yeah, they definitely are different enough. I'm just trying to think of a good way to make Roy more unique, in the Wolf sense. And I barely played Ike's games. I'm sad they didn't go with the Axes at all, instead pretty much copying two of Roy's moves for his specials. Albeit, Ike is still at least pretty much unique from Marth for the most part. Counter even is different. I liked how Shield Breaker was very different from Eruption.

 

[Arcadenik]

I think that the characters who might be in danger of getting cut are Ike, Lucario, Lucas (Ness is safe since he's relevant again thanks to EarthBound being available on Wii U Virtual Console), Snake, Sonic, either Falco or Wolf (I prefer Wolf over Fox and Falco), Toon Link (I prefer Toon Link over Link and Young Link), Sheik, and even Jigglypuff. Sakurai doesn't need to worry about "hurting my feelings" if any of the above got cut... yes, even if he cut some of my mains. I will just find new characters to main with anyway.

I am not sure why they would be suddenly able to reference the cartoon though.

Because Sakurai outright admitted that he choose playable Pokémon based on the anime and the movies?

Meowth and Team Rocket for Smash!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Of coarse, Roy could easily be Marth's Wolf. But I heavily disagree about him being a power character. Cause he really is not. Not in Melee, and not in FE6. In fact, Strenght is one of his lower stats. And he has quite some problems finishing off in Melee.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Of coarse, Roy could easily be Marth's Wolf. But I heavily disagree about him being a power character. Cause he really is not. Not in Melee, and not in FE6. In fact, Strenght is one of his lower stats. And he has quite some problems finishing off in Melee.

Eh, he was the power to Marth's speed in Melee, though. He was weaker than some, though, I agree.

@Arcadenik: Sheik and Jigglypuff are not in danger whatsoever. And never were. Rest, yeah, I can see it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No Marth is actually stronger, if played right of coarse. His tipper makes KOing a very easy task compared to Roy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No Marth is actually stronger, if played right of coarse. His tipper makes KOing a very easy task compared to Roy.

I meant that Roy is a slow powerhouse while Marth is often a fast weakhitter.

Although I'm talking for general play, not at their best. Guess Roy really was pretty terrible in Smash. No wonder some don't mind him staying out.

 

[IsmaR]

On a lighter note..

Spoiler

Villager is going to be the new bane of my existence.

Edit: With all this Marth vs Roy discussion, I'm suddenly reminded of playing Melee with my older brother back before I got into competitive Smash (like '01-'05 status. I literally didn't know how to unlock anybody besides Jigglypuff until he procured a guidebook. Naturally I had no idea what the hell Fire Emblem was, much less who the characters were). He and I always used to have fights over who was better of the two swordsmen, which usually ended with "intense" sparring sessions consisting of the "No Items, FD, FoxSwords only" stock matches variety. Him usually going with flashy fire shenanigans, since we'd been doing this since Street Fighter days and he'd always get dibs on Ken because edginess/I'm the youngest and get no say in things, and me usually going with Marf out of bother admiration for the bishie status and because of heckling to use because of the tiara = girl character thing. Again, this was before I had any grasp of what "competitive " Smash truly was, and more or less just a stupid rivalry.

I just find it funny looking back at all of that nowadays, with all the blissfully ignorant and simplistic claims of who was "better" for what reason, and which player was showing more "skill." By the end of this period, I ended up making my brother wear his ass for a hat every match, lest I be greeted with his dudebro WHOO screams that I'll eventually have to get counseling/therapy for repressing them into a tumor.

tl;dr - To this day, I hate sword users, Fire Emblem, and Final Destination because of my brother.
And fairly sure all the likes this received before the edit were not from this anecdote.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I meant that Roy is a slow powerhouse while Marth is often a fast weakhitter.

Although I'm talking for general play, not at their best. Guess Roy really was pretty terrible in Smash. No wonder some don't mind him staying out.

Really a tier placement shouldn't mean a character should be excluded. Look at how much G&W was buffed for example from Melee to Brawl. If anything, I want bad characters buffed up significantly. Roy is actually a little faster btw, cause of his faster fall speed. Overall all of his moves come out just as quickly though. Perhaps Marth runs a little faster, not sure.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Really a tier placement shouldn't mean a character should be excluded. Look at how much G&W was buffed for example from Melee to Brawl. If anything, I want bad characters buffed up significantly. Roy is actually a little faster btw, cause of his faster fall speed. Overall all of his moves come out just as quickly though. Perhaps Marth runs a little faster, not sure.

I will be honest that I thought Roy was the slow but powerful one.

And no, I'm just saying that I find it funny that Roy is so much worse, and just happened to be the one who didn't make it in. Of course, Dr. Mario was better than Mario in Melee tier-wise, I believe. Mewtwo... I don't have to say much.

Anyway, nah, I don't want someone to not make it due to tier status. I'd love to buff them all, but we know the chances of everyone returning is zilch. I'm still sad Pichu had zero data in Brawl as a Fighter. He was a lot of fun to play in Melee. I can fully understand why many hate him, though.

@IsmaR: I don't mind sword users, but Fire Emblem should be repped outside of that. Melee felt shallow since Marth and Roy weren't much different. Ike did an awesome job of fleshing out a sword-based moveset. I really hope For goes farther by giving them a new weapon or projectiles or something like that.

Also, http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200708/N07.0802.1741.54921.htm this shows that yes, Aonuma wanted Sheik in Brawl. Which means there's a very good chance she'll probably return now.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well Roy was really badly designed in the first place. I mean, c'mon, Marth's tipper has ALL the advantages, while Roy's sweetspot if you could even call it that- has zero benefits. Marth has the range and killing power, Roy has close to no range, and worse killing power. Both of their swords are (I think) evenly long, but Marth gets rewarded of using it's full range, while Roy gets punished for it as Roy's tipper is laughably weak.

Mewtwo was just a rather awkward situation. He has nice tilts, awesome throws, great recovery, an awesome shield, great rolls and a good projectile. However, he's a very big target who is too light for his size, his Smash attacks are rather weak and / or hard to land or too risky, his great finishers lack priority and range, his tail hitbox is weird (kind of like a Roy situation how the center is the strongest ) he could use a lot more speed, and grab range. And two of his specials are close to useless. Unless you exploit the Confusion Battle Field - glitch, which is entirely situational.

Mewtwo is easy to buff though. More range, more speed, more kill power, more priority and more weight would do him A LOT. Bonus points for changing up Confusion and Disable.

Honestly, I think Mewtwo has the most potential of all Melee mid / low tiers not named Donkey Kong.

 

[Deleted member]

Can't see "nice tilts" as anything but "nice ****".

Mewtwo with breasts is an image I could have done without.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'll help you out. Zero Suit Samus has quite the nice tilts as well.

Hyper, that link doesn't work.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

http://snesorama.us/board/showthread.php?24407-SSBB-Aonuma-lets-Brawl-confirmations-slip That's where I read it from.

The topic might've gotten deleted, but I know other sources have confirmed it before.

Either way, it depends what Aonuma does, and seeing how much important he's made Zelda in the regular LOZ games, he's probably going to want her alter ego kept. I still can see Impa being another character possible. But she does have to compete with Tingle, Vaati, Ghirahim, and whatever new notable character that may come out in A Link Between Worlds and Zelda Wii U. Since the only unique Impa is the old lady variant, I wouldn't count on her being in. No, her Shiekah form isn't very unique, either.

 

[Frostwraith]

Considering that Link's design in SSB4 is still mostly based on Twilight Princess, having a color scheme similar to his Skyward Sword incarnation, I think something similar will happen with Zelda, Sheik and Ganondorf, being mostly based on their TP selves and having more saturated color schemes, possibly taking cues from SS Zelda's, SS Impa's and Demise's designs, respectively.

 

[FlareHabanero]

To this day, I hate sword users, Fire Emblem, and Final Destination because of my brother.

I guess you hate my guts then, minus the Final Destination. Battlefield is generally better, or stages that also use a similar formatting.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sheik got remade for the Wii U Zelda as well. Even if she doesn't make it(in Wii U Zelda, to be clear).

The weird part is, according to the article, Sheik wasn't designed for TP, but for Brawl, but in a TP style.

I'm wondering if the whole beta thing with Sheik being planned was an inconsistency.

And yeah, I like the idea of that design, except for Ganondorf. Give me the Toon version any day. Unless we get him back in the two new games, though. Albeit, the OOT and WW versions are the only likely designs we'll see for Ganondorf, since a lot were angry with how bad he was in Brawl.(I doubt Sakurai isn't aware of this) I mean, he ruled in Melee, despite being far more of a clone than in Brawl, but... still.

Also, considering he was shoo-horned into TP, seeing him suck in Brawl is a bit of an irony. On the other hand, I'm sure if they used his Toon design, he would've still sucked in Brawl, but had a worse Final Smash(be honest, Ganondorf's version was good).

 

[Demna]

To this day, I hate sword users, Fire Emblem, and Final Destination because of my brother.
And fairly sure all the likes this received before the edit were not from this anecdote.

What did your brother do to make you hate all those wonderful things?

 

[ToddCam]

Pichu was added as a joke character in Melee.

Source?

 

[Metal Overlord]

The more I think about it, the more I want seriously want Pichu back >_<

Good lord I loved playing as him in Melee

 

[Diddy Kong]

The Sheik thing goes both ways. Probably, she was planned and drafted for Twilight Princess, but the eventual Smash model was made from that for Brawl. They might've been undecided if they where to include Sheik or not in the actual game. However, this is pure speculation. Hyrule Historica says it was for TP, another source says it was for Brawl.

Then again, there where no real replacements for Sheik available back in the day. Now we have Impa. Keep in mind that Zelda / Sheik was one of the more unique newcomers from Melee as well, and Twilight Princess was basically Ocarina of Time 2.0. And besides Midna, it really had no other potential characters to be included. This isn't the case with Skyward Sword. And it took a majorly different approach.

I still don't see how people keep claiming Smash Link is TP Link. He definitely looks MOST like a texture mix of TP and SS Link, but still different. The fact they have Skyloft as a stage, and pretty much replaced the Bridge of Eldin with Gerudo Valley as a stage, am yet to be convinced it's Twilight Princess Link. Am making conclusions on this whenever I see Zelda and Ganondorf. Who I think will be based on Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time respectively. Maybe Ganondorf could borrow from both Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time however.

Impa is still a strong contender however. Especially with the Villager's Up B looking like it's from Balloon Fight. I just can't imagine Tingle getting in. And if he did, he'd likely have a Balloon Up B recovery as well. I just don't see them doing it. Vaati is not prominent enough, and has pretty much faded in obscurity. Am doubting we'll see anything ALTTP2 related, besides maybe a Young Link version based on this game (which I wouldn't like, Toon Link or GTFO please).

Ghirahim is quite a contender, but if he's in, I have a hard time imagining Impa not being in alongside her. Imagine if Toon Link was actually cut, and so would Sheik. That'd leave the Zelda series with just 3 characters. And seeing we had 5 since Melee, I'm not seeing it happening. Ghirahim would add a Skyward Sword flavour to the game, as he's Skyward Sword specific. Impa has a lot more appearances to draw from. And on top of that, she's a reoccuring character, who was in the beginning of the series. She's kind of like, the Toad of the Zelda series.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Considering that Link's design in SSB4 is still mostly based on Twilight Princess, having a color scheme similar to his Skyward Sword incarnation, I think something similar will happen with Zelda, Sheik and Ganondorf, being mostly based on their TP selves and having more saturated color schemes, possibly taking cues from SS Zelda's, SS Impa's and Demise's designs, respectively.

I believe Sakurai said overall all characters color scheme will be more saturated than brawls. The only thing that I'm wondering is if they are going to keep Zelda as brunette and if they are going to keep her hairstyle the way it was in Brawl or make it more inline with the SS hairstyle.

 

[Aidebit]

What did your brother do to make you hate all those wonderful things?

Did you even read the post?

 

[Autumn ♫]

I still don't see how people keep claiming Smash Link is TP Link. He definitely looks MOST like a texture mix of TP and SS Link, but still different. The fact they have Skyloft as a stage, and pretty much replaced the Bridge of Eldin with Gerudo Valley as a stage, am yet to be convinced it's Twilight Princess Link. Am making conclusions on this whenever I see Zelda and Ganondorf. Who I think will be based on Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time respectively. Maybe Ganondorf could borrow from both Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time however.

Impa is still a strong contender however. Especially with the Villager's Up B looking like it's from Balloon Fight. I just can't imagine Tingle getting in. And if he did, he'd likely have a Balloon Up B recovery as well. I just don't see them doing it. Vaati is not prominent enough, and has pretty much faded in obscurity. Am doubting we'll see anything ALTTP2 related, besides maybe a Young Link version based on this game (which I wouldn't like, Toon Link or GTFO please).

Ghirahim is quite a contender, but if he's in, I have a hard time imagining Impa not being in alongside her. Imagine if Toon Link was actually cut, and so would Sheik. That'd leave the Zelda series with just 3 characters. And seeing we had 5 since Melee, I'm not seeing it happening. Ghirahim would add a Skyward Sword flavour to the game, as he's Skyward Sword specific. Impa has a lot more appearances to draw from. And on top of that, she's a reoccuring character, who was in the beginning of the series. She's kind of like, the Toad of the Zelda series.

I see the new Link as the all-encompassing Link, with the biggest mixtures being OoT, TP, and SS.

I think Impa is the next most likely Zelda choice as she is the 4th most important character to the franchise and can be different from Sheik. I wouldn't count Vaati or Tingle out yet though.

Ghirahim most likely won't make it in due to his one time only villian status and was only Demise's servent. Heck, if you want a new Zelda villian it would probably be Vaati.

If Toon Link is cut, I don't think that would mean Sheik is cut though. I don't see any relation between the 2.

 

[Big-Cat]

I still don't see how people keep claiming Smash Link is TP Link. He definitely looks MOST like a texture mix of TP and SS Link, but still different. The fact they have Skyloft as a stage, and pretty much replaced the Bridge of Eldin with Gerudo Valley as a stage, am yet to be convinced it's Twilight Princess Link. Am making conclusions on this whenever I see Zelda and Ganondorf. Who I think will be based on Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time respectively. Maybe Ganondorf could borrow from both Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time however.

This is what I'm thinking. The only reason I think people make this assumption is because he's more "realistic" than the Skyward Sword look. If anything, he's like how Fox's design is - a mix of different games. I wouldn't be surprised if Zelda and Ganondorf get this, especially since their TP designs, while nice, seem way too meh compared to the Skyward and Wind Waker versions. I'd like to see them toss influences from those games into their designs. Zelda's waifu-ness is a must along with Ganondorf's twin swords.

At this point, I think Impa can go four ways: Replace Sheik and become a tag partner, replace Sheik and be separate, Sheik stays and Impa is a standalone, or not playable.

 

[Demna]

Did you even read the post?

No I just commented bluntly... Of course I read the post , but his reasons weren't that clear enough. He may have specific details to why he dislikes those things other than his "Intense sparring sessions" with his older brother.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Tingle has his own Balloons and has made them before his Balloon Fight game. So no, Villager having a reference to Balloon Fighter itself doesn't have any relevance to Tingle's chances.

Also, if Toon Link somehow gets cut, expect a Young Link in his place. Child Link is too important to leave out, as Sakurai puts it. The first game not having one isn't very telling, as he even mentioned beforehand that the Boomerang being Adult Link's special was due to lack of knowledge. So he might've had a Bow instead. I'm not arguing with the results, of course.

And nah, Impa being in SS really isn't that helpful when she still lacks her own game or a beyond prominent role like the other ones mentioned do. Tingle has his own games, after all. Three, in fact. Ghirahim was an extremely important villain. Vaati's a main villain and starts in multiple games. Again, she's not more important than any of those 3 overall. Her roles are very small.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wind Waker HD mixed with Ocarina of Time, and Twilight Princess designs with a little influence of Demise would be great for Ganondorf. Considering Link is not specific, they can do a lot more with Ganondorf regarding potential move changes. I could see him being a raw physical fist fighter to. Borrowing Smash attacks from his fighting moves in Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.

Wouldn't like it, but that seems most likely. With this 'I'm affraid to alienate players- attitude Sakurai seems to have' we might as well see little changes in Ganondorf's attacks. Not sure what this means for Sheik. Seeing as Sakurai even started he cares about the most minor characters.

I see Impa as likely however still. She could always appear alongside her. Though this will probably become more likely when we see newcomers for Mario, DKC and Pokémon first. As I'm not yet seeing a Zelda newcomer before these get one.

Her role is not small however. She's as much of a supporter character as Zelda is. Less than her, but her role in Skyward Saord was pretty much equal to Zelda's. Hence now is the best time to expect her. Sheik also got in Melee cause of her recent role in Ocarina of Time. She is a prominent character throughout the series. And funny thing, even though Sheik was drafted for TP, Impa still got a mention (and even was considered and drafted upon as an old man ). Sheik also didn't get into Skyward Sword, even if she easily could ( combine the roles of Impa and Zelda, and the plot would be much the same) showing Impa took priority for them.

Am guessing we'll see more of Impa in the future. Whereas Sheik doesn't stand quite the chance for returning. Her best bet was Twilight Princess. And in the next major console release, Skyward Sword got Impa.

These are just reasonings why it could happen. Am not saying it will, but in my opinion, it should. Anyway, if they could fit in both, that'd be cool to.

 

[Deleted member]

I guess you hate my guts then, minus the Final Destination. Battlefield is generally better, or stages that also use a similar formatting.

FD is Falco's domain...

Marth dominates in Battlefield though, or anywhere with a platform really. So does Snake.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Tingle has his own Balloon's and has made them before his Balloon Fight game. So no, Villager having a reference to Balloon Fighter itself doesn't have any relevance to Tingle's chances.

Also, if Toon Link somehow gets cut, except a Young Link in his place. Child Link is too important to leave out, as Sakurai puts it. The first game not having one isn't very telling, as he even mentioned beforehand that the Boomerang being Adult Link's special was due to lack of knowledge. So he might've had a Bow instead. I'm not arguing with the results, of course.

And nah, Impa being in SS really isn't that helpful when she still lacks her own game or a beyond prominent role like the other ones mentioned do. Tingle has his own games, after all. Three, in fact. Ghirahim was an extremely important villain. Vaati's a main villain and starts in multiple games. Again, she's not more important than any of those 3 overall. Her roles are very small.

I don't really see how having another Link is that important...

It's not just SS that makes Impa important. It helps yes, but it's not the only important thing to her. She's the 4th most important Zelda character originally holding the Triforce of Power I believe, before Ganon had it. She's been in alot of the games including the newest and the most popular, SS and OoT. She can also be very different than Sheik in her fighting style and can actually give a Sheikah a playable spot, instead of being just half of a spot.

 

[Moon Monkey]

This is what I'm thinking. The only reason I think people make this assumption is because he's more "realistic" than the Skyward Sword look. If anything, he's like how Fox's design is - a mix of different games. I wouldn't be surprised if Zelda and Ganondorf get this, especially since their TP designs, while nice, seem way too meh compared to the Skyward and Wind Waker versions. I'd like to see them toss influences from those games into their designs. Zelda's waifu-ness is a must along with Ganondorf's twin swords.

At this point, I think Impa can go four ways: Replace Sheik and become a tag partner, replace Sheik and be separate, Sheik stays and Impa is a standalone, or not playable.

Frost showed me some pictures comparing the two versions of link if you look at the design of the bows it is definitely modeled after the TP Model. Same goes for the bombs. You can go to the Toon Link thread and see this comparison.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't really see how having another Link is that important...

It is to Sakurai. The Child Link is considered to him to be the first version of Link introduced, not Adult Link. So Child Link is a very important character to him in the Zelda series. Adult Link has veteran status, not so much importance. Of course, Adult Link is apparently one of the most popular too, so that helps. In addition, representing the Adult and Child games is pretty important too. The other characters fail to do that, besides two Links. It's not an issue having two, especially when they don't play alike at all, despite having a lot of the same moves.(less so in Brawl, as Toon Link's moveset is extremely different from regular Link, even with how each move works for the clone ones)

It's not just SS that makes Impa important. It helps yes, but it's not the only important thing to her. She's the 4th most important Zelda character originally holding the Triforce of Power I believe, before Ganon had it. She's been in alot of the games including the newest and the most popular, SS and OoT. She can also be very different than Sheik in her fighting style and can actually give a Sheikah a playable spot, instead of being just half of a spot.

Being in a lot of games doesn't make her the most important. In fact, she's a bit player and a very minor Zelda character overall. She's had a few moments, but Sheik is actually the fourth most important character overall. Unless you count her as Zelda. And nah, making her a Sheikah just means they'll most likely make her a clone. Her Oracle games shows that she's a very powerful portly woman who could easily take the scene. We need variety in our women, not just "Oh, they are totally thin girls" type thing. We have enough variety in the men in Smash, having all kind of shapes and sizes. The women are not so diverse. They're a little better than some games, but still not that great.

Again, Tingle's in quite a few amount of games and is also just as key of a role in most cases. They're in the same boat "Hero"-wise. Vaati and Ghirahim are pretty close for notable villains, too. Although many could argue Tingle's an Anti-Villain at this point.

 

[FlareHabanero]

FD is Falco's domain...

Marth dominates in Battlefield though, or anywhere with a platform really. So does Snake.

Final Desitnation is deceivingly fair. The fact that it has no platforms or obstacles may seems like it's a great stage, but in reality it's not perfect from a balance standpoint. Because of there being no obstacles, fast characters and users of projectiles can take advantage of it and can overwhelm others that don't do the same.

 

[Metal Overlord]

IIRC, Sakurai said that he felt it was important to have both a child and adult version of Link represented in Smash, which was one of the reasons why he put Young Link in Melee

 

[Deleted member]

Final Desitnation is deceivingly fair. The fact that it has no platforms or obstacles may seems like it's a great stage, but in reality it's not perfect from a balance standpoint. Because of there being no obstacles, fast characters and users of projectiles can take advantage of it and can overwhelm others that don't do the same.

Hence the Fox ONLY, Final Destination.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

IIRC, Sakurai said that he felt it was important to have both a child and adult version of Link represented in Smash, which was one of the reasons why he put Young Link in Melee

Another is that he screwed up with Adult Link in giving him the Boomerang. Adult Link outside of Smash has never legitimately used a Boomerang(to note, I'm referring to the non-overhead Zelda games like Zelda II, TP, OOT, SS, where, he's blatantly an Adult. No, Soul Calibur II doesn't count either) till TP. It's still the only game for him to do so. Of course, as I said, Link would've sucked in 64 if he had the Bow. I always found that less than useful compared to his Spin Attack(Ground, Melee), Bombs, and Boomerang. Speaking of, the main thing that keeps the Bow from being replaced is respectively that it's one of Link's most well known Items.(Bow, Bombs, Boomerang.) The Spin Attack is also a hugely known ability of his, since the 3rd game. I can't think of a game after that that removed the Spin Attack at all.

Also, did you get my invite earlier to my usergroup, MO?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Hence the Fox ONLY, Final Destination.

What about items?