Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[Johnknight1]

Or the SHOULDER BASH could be the best Dash attack in the game.

The way it works is a bit too advanced for a dash attack IMO (at least the Project M SHOULDER BASH), but it could work. I like to use the move when I'm stationary, but if that what it takes to get a proper (Project M-esk) SHOULDER BASH, then I will take it.

Not having a proper shoulder bash, does seem like a big blunder on the developer's part. Just like not having DK roll for his dash attack.

Exactly. Plus, the Project M SHOULDER BASH is SOOOOOOOOO GOOODD!!!!

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Ah man, Wario in PM is amazing in general. So much great moves and playstyle is dang fun when getting hang of the mechanics and functions on certain moves.

 

[Frostwraith]

Oh no, I got that, but I think such an example would be best served as one of the last tidbits revealed before the game is released (much like Sonic and Olimar were shown) or saved as a secret you find out when the game is released (much like most hidden characters).

You meant being revealed not so early. Yeah, I can see that happening too.

Instead of a bite attack, a grab special would be better imo, where he would shake the opponent. (Basically Wario's version of Koopa Klaw). The bite should be relegated to a pummel.

Like making Wario's bite his normal grab and having a new special move? I'd be fine with that.
The closest to the Shoulder Bash Wario has in Brawl is his side Smash, but it's nowhere close to how the move works in the Wario Land games.

 

[Johnknight1]

Ah man, Wario in PM is amazing in general. So much great moves and playstyle is dang fun when getting hang of the mechanics and functions on certain moves.

Which is crazy, since Wario's moveset in Brawl was SOOO GOOODD!!!! (even if Brawl wasn't [competitively] IMO)

Wario is really such a well-designed character in Smash, and he has nearly unlimited potential.

You meant being revealed not so early. Yeah, I can see that happening too.

That's the only way I see it happening actually.

 

[FlareHabanero]

No, I mean few of his aerial moves really feel like they do anything, they have awkward motions and hitboxes, and none of his aerial offense flows together (other than a move followed by an arrow).

Pit's aerial offense feels like you're playing as a floaty Bowser with Pichu's power, and the aerials don't really make sense. On top of that, only two of his special attacks have any real priority in the air (the up B and neutral B), and one of them doesn't even do damage.

On the contrary to what your proclaiming, Pit's aerial attacks are fine for what they are designed to do, which is spacing and chaining. It's not designed for powerful onslaughts in the air, it's more designed to evenly space yourself from the opponent and to encourage pressuring. If you're trying to play Pit like Jigglypuff, you're not exactly getting the same deal. Pit is in general designed to play defensively, not offensively.

To clarify, the only aerial attacks that are purposely designed to preforms kills for are his back aerial and glide attack, while the others are more along the lines of utility moves. His forward aerial is designed for spacing, his down aerial has high priority, his up aerial can be chained into other attacks like his down throw and can be used against edge hogging, and his neutral aerial can stop projectiles and pressure shielding.

 

[Johnknight1]

@ Habanero
The problem with Pit's aerial style is it isn't offensive-based, which makes no sense. No character should be a The only characters that should have a huge chunk of their offense (not most of it) be counter-striking IMO are a small percentage super fast characters (Pichu maybe?), but mostly the super heavy characters (like Bowser). I don't get why anyone in between should be so reliant on counter-attacking.

Characters should be able to create their own offensive on a more consistent basis than what Pit had with some good spacing and some good strings of attacks. Pit doesn't really have too much of that (especially in the air).

Pit should be able to go all-out in the air. I mean, if Meta Knight can do it in Brawl, why can't Pit=??? I understand he's not as fast, but he should be able to do a few moves, chase opponents with his glide (potentially off the stage), and be able to go up and down like crazy in conjunction with the stage and his offense.

 

[Bowserlick]

Pit and Metaknight should have different styles of play. I think Pit works fine as a defensive character. Kinda syncs up with him being an angel and striking second.

He just seems a bit dry.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Hate to bring up the X1 again, but....

 

[FalKoopa]

Xbox One has really shot itself in the foot into popularity.

 

[Big-Cat]

Anyone of any size or strength can be made into a defensive character. It mostly lies in their toolsets ad their means if winning.

I'd be willing to compare Pit to Jun and Asuka who are also defensive characters and also happen to be in the mid range for size.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Xbox One has really shot itself in the foot into popularity.

This is too good.

 

[Johnknight1]

Pit and Metaknight should have different styles of play. I think Pit works fine as a defensive character. Kinda syncs up with him being an angel and striking second.

He just seems a bit dry.

I don't mind him being a more defensive-leaning characters, but the game should be about offense first and last. Good offense should beat equal or slightly better defense most of the time, otherwise we get what we got in competitive Brawl which was going forward a little bit, go back.

However, what I was more referring to was Pit's offense, which was so reliant on counter-striking. It's like Pit requires taking a step back to do damage. I would like to see Pit (especially in the air) have the ability go to forward with his offense more frequently (with success) instead of requiring Pit players to go around their opponent and let their opponent set the offensive pace to do offense.

I think that is what is missing; that is what is "dry." There's nothing wrong with Pit having parts of a counter-striking style, but relying on it as much as Pit does now makes no sense, and makes him very one/two-dimensional.

It's like in boxing if a boxer could only land good punches if he dodged an opponent's punch first and had his opponent dictate the pace of the fight. I mean, just to successfully do that you must dodge your opponent, not get trapped, and work a lot harder than your opponent.

That's stupid, and that's IMO a situation Pit's offense is in. That is why Pit should be able to create his own offense on a more regular basis, and he should be able to charge forward successfully more often. He can still be defensive when doing that guys. Some of the best counter-strikers in boxing, for instance, pushed forward or stayed in spot (and dodged vertically)instead of pushing back. (Yeah, I blew up that analogy).

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

I hope the Playstation Falcon makes it into Smash 4.

 

[Big-Cat]

You can still have an offensive approach while being defensive. Pit, IMO, should be designed keep away for stage control, pressure, and poking at the opponent to frustrate him. This way, Pit uses more "passive" means to dictate the pace of the match.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Wasn't Brawl a lot the time favouring towards defensive play? I guess that might have explained Pit at times.

Speaking of Pit, BTW, would they try to tie in Uprising's weapons in some form or another on him? I just hope they don't completely revamp him with a moveset solely based on that game.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I hope the Playstation Falcon makes it into Smash 4.

But it's a Nintendo crossover.

Speaking of Pit, BTW, would they try to tie in Uprising's weapons in some form or another on him? I just hope they don't completely revamp him with a moveset solely based on that game.

The only weapon Pit would be tied to would be the Palutena Bow, you know his signature weapon.

 

[Johnknight1]

Anyone of any size or strength can be made into a defensive character. It mostly lies in their toolsets ad their means if winning.

I'd be willing to compare Pit to Jun and Asuka who are also defensive characters and also happen to be in the mid range for size.

The difference IMO is that those characters have more offensive diversity than Pit, and don't require camping and running tactics to be successful at the highest level. In order for a character to be offensively viable in smash, they got to have offense that is first and foremost useful, flexible, and a diverse set of moves that really set up their other moves well and compliment their other moves.

I don't think Pit has much of those qualities in Brawl, which is why I think he fails.

As for defensive styles that you are talking about, in smash, you can be a very defensive character, but you still need to be able to move around well and at least be able to create a bit of offense by moving forward. Pit doesn't have that. As campy and defensive is Brawl, Pit takes it to the extreme IMO.

I imagine most, if not all of this will be fixed in Smash WiiU and 3DS with Pit. Part of the problem was Brawl was made by a C-grade studio and that unlike Smash 64 and Melee, it wasn't offense first, defense second, and it didn't have a system where good offense beats equally as good defense most of the time.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

But it's a Nintendo crossover.


The only weapon Pit would be tied to would be the Palutena Bow, you know his signature weapon.

Captain Falcon appears in Modnation racers though.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Actually if you want a character that takes the defensive approach too far, look at Link. His playstyle has an heavy emphasis on defensive play by spacing using his varies projectiles and attacking when the opponent is worn down or makes mistakes. Unlike Pit, Link's mobility and attacks are more limited, meaning that the only way to strike is to wait for the opponent to drop their guard. This of course leads to probably his most crippling problems, and why he's a very flawed character to use in every Super Smash Bros. While his projectiles are greats for softening the opponent, it doesn't mean much if Link cannot use that to his advantage.

 

[Johnknight1]

Actually if you want a character that takes the defensive approach too far, look at Link. His playstyle has an heavy emphasis on defensive play by spacing using his varies projectiles and attacking when the opponent is worn down or makes mistakes. Unlike Pit, Link's mobility and attacks are more limited, meaning that the only way to strike is to wait for the opponent to drop their guard.

Depends which game. Link in Brawl, yes, but Link in Brawl sucks so bad, nobody notices.

Link in Melee, on the other hand, is more focused on specific aiming at certain locations to "trap" your location. Link in the non-Japanese version of Smash 64 is the same thing (but with more free ranging offense). Link in the Japanese version of Smash 64 was pretty much a character that could win by doing nearly anything offensively (with good spacing).

But back to Pit, he wasn't as God forsaken awful like Link, and he had previously been great in 3 different ways in 2 different smash games (1 of them in 2 different ways in 2 versions) which is why I'm criticizing Pit and not Link.

Also, Link was mostly made (in terms of moveset and how he plays) by the Twilight Princess development team, and Sakurai had no involvement with Link, so at least his failures as a character in Brawl made more sense. (I still blame a ton of it on Game Arts, which is a C-grade studio at best)

In regards to Pit though, Pit's defense-to-offense is basically too one-dimensional. Link's defense-to-offense works in nearly every way that normal offense works.

 

[Bowserlick]

Bomb bowling will save Link.

Make it so Sakurai!

 

[Deleted member]

All this talk about defensive play.

I noticed you said you had P:M John, how about we have a friendly match. I'll play P:M Zelda and show you how mean defensive play can be.

 

[Johnknight1]

All this talk about defensive play.

I noticed you said you had P:M John, how about we have a friendly match. I'll play P:M Zelda and show you how mean defensive play can be.

1. I know what you're trying to do here.
2. My Ness wins.
3. My internet sucks.
4. I can be so campy in Super Smash Bros. 64 and Project M with Mario that I have made campers hate me!
5. Again, that kind of defensive play leads to more kinds of offense and is more flexible than Pit's offense.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Also, Link was mostly made (in terms of moveset and how he plays) by the Twilight Princess development team, and Sakurai had no involvement with Link, so at least his failures as a character in Brawl made more sense.

The Twilight Princess development team was not involved with the development of Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Even then, it wouldn't make sense for them to be involved with designing the gameplay style for only the Zelda characters.

 

[Big-Cat]

All the Zelda team did was make designs for the Zelda characters and MAYBE make some suggestions.

I'm on my phone, can anyone, namely Manly, put videos of defensive characters from other games?

 

[Deleted member]

1. I know what you're trying to do here.
2. My Ness wins.
3. My internet sucks.
4. I can be so campy in Super Smash Bros. 64 and Project M with Mario that I have made campers hate me!
5. Again, that kind of defensive play leads to more kinds of offense and is more flexible than Pit's offense.

You seriously can't play me dude? We'd just have a couple rounds, my Falco, my Snake, my Zelda and my Marth will leave you crying. Especially Falco.

C'mon man, I wasn't even talking camping, that ****'s lame, I was talking Zoning and Pressure, PM Zelda is great at that.

Also, Ness and Lucas in PM are like Candy, especially Lucas, goddamn son, he plays so fine.

 

[Bowserlick]

I think there is a chance the movesets for Ganondorf and Mewtwo can be redesigned to a much higher degree of difference than other moveset tweaks in previous editions. Let us hope.

 

[Starphoenix]

This is too good.

Spoiler

SunhiLegend... My man.

 

[Johnknight1]

The Twilight Princess development team was not involved with the development of Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Even then, it wouldn't make sense for them to be involved with designing the gameplay style for only the Zelda characters.

They designed only the models for all the Zelda characters except Toon Link. My mistake.

All the Zelda team did was make designs for the Zelda characters and MAYBE make some suggestions.

I'm on my phone, can anyone, namely Manly, put videos of defensive characters from other games?

Okay, I stand corrected.

As for the defensive characters, I know what a defensive character looks like. However, I think Pit's form of defense-to-offense is too centered on a few types of scenarios; it doesn't have enough dimensions IMO.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'll admit, Pit having a few more options wouldn't hurt. Again, the main problem I have with him is that his power might be a little too low. In general, the ideas implemented in Project M would be welcomed.

 

[Johnknight1]

You seriously can't play me dude? We'd just have a couple rounds, my Falco, my Snake, my Zelda and my Marth will leave you crying. Especially Falco.

C'mon man, I wasn't even talking camping, that ****'s lame, I was talking Zoning and Pressure, PM Zelda is great at that.

Also, Ness and Lucas in PM are like Candy, especially Lucas, goddamn son, he plays so fine.

No, I'm Johning.

But for reals, sure, I'll face you in a few weeks when I got no schools. But let the lag be the warning, because it is bad with my Wii for some reason (but not my Xbox 360 or DS for some reason).

As for your strategy, I have gone to enough (Project M) tournaments to see this stuff.

And Ness got quite a bit better in 2.5, but he still needs a Smash 64-level of greatness PK Thunder (which still isn't that great). But yeah, Lucas is balls man. Lots of balls. I still need to work on my Lucas a lot, actually, because I imagine he could be a great character for me to use seriously.

Right now I'm busy building up my Ness and Mario, and trying to figure out why I completely suck as Captain Falcon and Ganondorf in Project M (whereas I only mostly suck as them in Melee). At least I got my Fox completely down, mostly because Fox is nearly entirely the same as he is in Melee and he's my main.

 

[8-peacock-8]

How would you guys react if this was the roster in SSB4?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Felt like sharing this with all of you:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vid...51-Because-I-Could-Not-Stop-For-Loading-Times

 

[Deleted member]

All the Zelda team did was make designs for the Zelda characters and MAYBE make some suggestions.

I'm on my phone, can anyone, namely Manly, put videos of defensive characters from other games?

Sure thing, which ones in particular?

Anyway some vids:

Rachel vs Amane (BBCP)

Potemkin character guide (GGXX):

Zangeif vs. Ryu (SF4)

P:M Zelda:

 

[Big-Cat]

How would you guys react if this was the roster in SSB4?

-Slippy
-Chrom
-Genesect
+Krystal
+Lyn
+Tom Nook
+Lip

@Manly
Videos of Nu, Mu, and Dizzy for starters. I'm afraid getting defensive play out of Tekken might be a bit abstract.

 

[Deleted member]

How would you guys react if this was the roster in SSB4?

>Bayonetta

I would point at all the naysayers and laugh in their faces. I would laugh and say: nya-nya nya-nya nyaaaa nyaaaa, I-I to-old youuu so! Bayo-netta's iin Smaaa-ash!

Anyway, that's not a bad roster, having Impa AND Sheik is kinda strange though.

 

[8-peacock-8]

-Slippy
-Chrom
-Genesect
+Krystal
+Lyn
+Tom Nook
+Lip

>Bayonetta

I would point at all the naysayers and laugh in their faces. I would laugh and say: nya-nya nya-nya nyaaaa nyaaaa, I-I to-old youuu so! Bayo-netta's iin Smaaa-ash!

Anyway, that's not a bad roster, having Impa AND Sheik is kinda strange though.

Impa and Shiek is to break Diddy.

 

[~automatic]

How would you guys react if this was the roster in SSB4?

Oh, OK. I mean there's no Jigglypuff or Lyn but whatever. WTF @ Impa and Slippy though.

*Carries on.*

 

[FlareHabanero]

How would you guys react if this was the roster in SSB4?

>Chrom
>Impa
>Genesect
>Toon Ganondorf
>Slippy
>Issac (inb4 N3ON butthurt)

...

 

[Metal Overlord]

Impa isn't that bad, lol at Slippy tho