Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[Starphoenix]

Base his move set on generic attack animations from Awakening. Much like Marth's moveset is based on NES attack animations. You could even make a couple of animations from stuff he does in the CG cut scenes.

If Sakurai truly wanted to be creative without going towards the Pair Up mechanic, Chrom could make use of some of the other skills in the game.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

*steps in*

Virtually all the Fire Emblem lords are interchangeable aside from minor, insignificant differences.

*steps out*

Are we talking personality, backstory, gameplay, or design?

Because Celica, Lyn, Hector, Ephraim, and Micaiah might want a word with you.

 

[Fatmanonice]

More or less.

Which is why I don't support Fire Emblem characters even if I like the series

Which is sad because this is something I've realized only recently while going through Awakening and that most of the differences between them are those that the fans imagine but, in game, pretty much the same. I guess you could say I hope Ike doesn't get replaced by Chrom because of the way he's depicted in fan works.

 

[Starphoenix]

*steps in*

Virtually all the Fire Emblem lords are interchangeable aside from minor, insignificant differences.

*steps out*

That can be said of pretty much most of the characters in any Fire Emblem game.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I don't think the FIre Emblem games are meant to be deep

It's about the tactical combat

 

[Starphoenix]

The characters are only meant to be a step above the generic drones in the Advance Wars series. Even though the personality archetypes stay the same for the most part, they're shuffled around for the sake of the narrative.

 

[Morbi]

I don't think the FIre Emblem games are meant to be deep

It's about the tactical combat

I thought that Vaike was pretty deep though.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

The first time I played with this tactical combat style was on a NES Godzilla game where you had to build up an army of tanks, jets, and soldiers to take out Godzilla and other Kaiju

 

[Morbi]

The first time I played with this tactical combat style was on a NES Godzilla game where you had to build up an army of tanks, jets, and soldiers to take out Godzilla and other Kaiju

Does Pokemon count as this tactical combat style?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Does Pokemon count as this tactical combat style?

No

Godzilla 2 on the NES

It's turned based

Edit: LOL, pokemon is turn based as well, but what I ACTUALLY mean is that each player takes turn moving ALL their players

 

[---]

Are we talking personality, backstory, gameplay, or design?

Yeah I gotta raise this question as well. There are many similarities, there's definitely a fair amount of archetypes within the hundreds of playable characters (that sort of thing is guaranteed to happen), but I do think it's a bit of a stretch to say they're all the same.

Call me blind, but half the reason I play the series is for the story/characters. I think Awakening has the best gameplay in the series, but I just can't stand the story/characters, yet I still play the original/Mystery of the Emblem a fair amount despite the gameplay being primitive and slow as hell.


What's looked at for Smash lies within the gameplay aspects of Fire Emblem, not the characters themselves. Which is, unfortunately, because of balance/sense of familiarity that the gameplay of Fire Emblem needs to have, why we will most likely not see a non-sword playable character.

 

[Knight Dude]

Yeah I gotta raise this question as well. There are many similarities, there's definitely a fair amount of archetypes within the hundreds of playable characters (that sort of thing is guaranteed to happen), but I do think it's a bit of a stretch to say they're all the same.

Call me blind, but half the reason I play the series is for the story/characters. I think Awakening has the best gameplay in the series, but I just can't stand the story/characters, yet I still play the original/Mystery of the Emblem a fair amount despite the gameplay being primitive and slow as hell.


What's looked at for Smash lies within the gameplay aspects of Fire Emblem, not the characters themselves. Which is, unfortunately, because of balance/sense of familiarity that the gameplay of Fire Emblem needs to have, why we will most likely not see a non-sword playable character.

Never played a Fire Emblem game yet. What was so bad about the story and characters of Awakening? I'm thinking of getting the Gamecube Fire Emblem game soon-ish.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Wish the Olympics were this hilarious.

 

[Niko Mar]

Never played a Fire Emblem game yet. What was so bad about the story and characters of Awakening? I'm thinking of getting the Gamecube Fire Emblem game soon-ish.

Nothing really, I guess it just depends on personal preference. I honestly didn't like the characters either, but it's mainly because they don't match up to the characters of Fire Emblem 7 in my eyes (for the most part).

Anyway though, the Gamecube one is awesome .

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Wish the Olympics were this hilarious.

I started my morning with this today. Glad to see a fellow watcher of him. XD

I also watched the Left 4 Dead one. ¦D

 

[Niko Mar]

Wish the Olympics were this hilarious.

This and the face-mask video were two of my favorite recents.

 

[FlareHabanero]

As much as I like him -- probably one of my favorite lords in the series -- I really don't see what he can do that the other three Fire Emblem characters cannot; unless Sakurai tries to give him lance attacks, or utilize the Pair Up system somehow. All I see him being is a middle weight character between the lighter Marth and heavier Ike -- Roy, essentially.

Actually a better comparison would be between Roy and Ike. Roy is actually a faster and weaker character then Marth.

 

[Morbi]

Actually a better comparison would be between Roy and Ike. Roy is actually a faster and weaker character then Marth.

Roy faster than Marth? In Melee?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Roy faster than Marth? In Melee?

Roy has a higher falling speed, creating a much stronger SHFFL. While his speed for attacks and dashing is by technicality standards slower, it's very minimal almost to the point of being irrelevant. For contrast, his power is by technicality standards lower then Marth's.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Never played a Fire Emblem game yet. What was so bad about the story and characters of Awakening?

The main complaints are that the Avatar is something of a "Mary Sue", that the story is very cliche'd, and that Chrom is an idiot who never gets called on it.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I was watching the Project M 3.0 trailer again, and I saw a flame war between PSASBR and Smash.

PSASBR's side was saying they were better, and Smash was giving tons of reasons to refute them.

I felt like mentioning that Brawl's roster was triple that of PSASBR on a weaker console, and how while Melee's competitive scene (and the series in general) has lasted over a decade, PSASBR is pretty much dead.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I was watching the Project M 3.0 trailer again, and I saw a flame war between PSASBR and Smash.

PSASBR's side was saying they were better, and Smash was giving tons of reasons to refute them.

I felt like mentioning that Brawl's roster was triple that of PSASBR on a weaker console, and how while Melee's competitive scene (and the series in general) has lasted over a decade, PSASBR is pretty much dead.

Haven't you seen "Defend It"

PSASBR is a MUCH deeper fighting game than Smash

 

[Knight Dude]

I wished that Sony would make a second PlayStation All Stars. I feel like if they put in more effort, then Smash would finally have some good competition. Even more so with the roster, so many series could have had more than just one character. And have it so that you get KOs by ring-out or using an actual Health Gauge. But yeah, Smash as of now still curb stomps PlayStation All Stars. Both Melee and Brawl.

But the actual fighting was good. Not entirely sure if I would say its better than Smash. Sometimes simplicity can be a benefit.

 

[Starphoenix]

Roy has a higher falling speed, creating a much stronger SHFFL. While his speed for attacks and dashing is by technicality standards slower, it's very minimal almost to the point of being irrelevant. For contrast, his power is by technicality standards lower then Marth's.

Learn something new everyday. However Chrom fits in, he can be a balanced fighter.

The main complaints are that the Avatar is something of a "Mary Sue", that the story is very cliche'd, and that Chrom is an idiot who never gets called on it.

At this point almost all of the stories are recycled to a point. Awakening makes up for those shortcomings with the sheer amount of gameplay available through DLC and the relationship pairings actually having some affect on the game, though marginally it may be.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I wished that Sony would make a second PlayStation All Stars. I feel like if they put in more effort, then Smash would finally have some good competition. Even more so with the roster, so many series could have had more than just one character. And have it so that you get KOs by ring-out or using an actual Health Gauge. But yeah, Smash as of now still curb stomps PlayStation All Stars. Both Melee and Brawl.

Eh, I'm not a fan of the characters or the gameplay

Attacking the opponent doesn't damage them in the slightest unless you use a special and upon death the enemy just poofs. It took me a while to realize my characters died because of that.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I think the only company that could go toe to toe with Super Smash Bros. is SEGA. This is mainly because the company has a assortment of IPs to toy with similar to Nintendo and the company has experience with fighting games like Virtua Fighter.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I think the only company that could go toe to toe with Super Smash Bros. is SEGA. This is mainly because the company has a strong assortment of IPs to toy with similar to Nintendo and the company has experience with fighting games like Virtua Fighter.

SEGA Smash bros YES

 

[Knight Dude]

Eh, I'm not a fan of the characters or the gameplay

Attacking the opponent doesn't damage them in the slightest unless you use a special and upon death the enemy just poofs. It took me a while to realize my characters died because of that.

I'm a fan of Sony's IPs just as I am of Nintendo's IPs. I don't know about you, but I was really disappointed with the devs of that game not using many of Sony's characters. Mostly Dr. Nefarious, Captain Quark and the rest of the Cooper Gang. Y'know to go along with Ratchet and Sly. Throw in some of the other characters from Infamous too. But at least they added Sackboy, Parappa the Rapper and Sir Daniel Fortesque. And the using specials to get K.O.s is still kind of dumb.

I think the only company that could go toe to toe with Super Smash Bros. is SEGA. This is mainly because the company has a assortment of IPs to toy with similar to Nintendo and the company has experience with fighting games like Virtua Fighter.

I'd want Capcom to finally do a Capcom All Stars game. And for there to another be a game where I can main Mega Man(X) and Zero. Throw in Chun-Li and Ammy as back-up characters.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm a fan of Sony's IPs just as I am of Nintendo's IPs. I don't know about you, but I was really disappointed with the devs of that game not using many of Sony's characters. Mostly Dr. Nefarious, Captain Quark and the rest of the Cooper Gang. Y'know to go along with Ratchet and Sly. Throw in some of the other characters from Infamous too. But at least they added Sackboy, Parappa the Rapper and Sir Daniel Fortesque. And the using specials to get K.O.s is still kind of dumb.



I'd want Capcom to finally do a Capcom All Stars game. And for there to another be a game where I can main Mega Man(X) and Zero. Throw in Chun-Li and Ammy as back-up characters.

The only reason I owned any Sony system was for JRPG's.

I didn't have a single game on any Sony system that wasn't a JRPG

and I never had a Playstation 3

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I'd want Capcom to finally do a Capcom All Stars game. And for there to another be a game where I can main Mega Man(X) and Zero. Throw in Chun-Li and Ammy as back-up characters.

Marvel vs. Capcom 3?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Capcom would not have Mega Man in their all star game

 

[Knight Dude]

The only reason I owned any Sony system was for JRPG's.

I didn't have a single game on any Sony system that wasn't a JRPG

and I never had a Playstation 3

Do you like platformers? If you do, maybe you could try Ratchet and Clank, that series has a lot of humor too. Sly Cooper wouldn't be a bad choice either.

Marvel vs. Capcom 3?

I said a "Capcom All-Stars game". A fighting game with just Capcom's classic characters. Even though I am a huge Marvel fan.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I said a "Capcom All-Stars game". A fighting game with just Capcom's classic characters. Even though I am a huge Marvel fan.

Yeah, I know. But you can technically main Zero (and by extension, MegaMan X) with Ammy and Chun-Li as backup.

 

[Knight Dude]

Yeah, I know. But you can technically main Zero (and by extension, MegaMan X) with Ammy and Chun-Li as backup.

Eh, too bad Mega Man wasn't in MvC3's roster. And Ammy wasn't in TvC's roster. But that game had Mega Man Voulnutt, so that made up for it. One day, I will have a team of one of the Mega Men, Zero, and some un-important 3rd character.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Eh, too bad Mega Man wasn't in MvC3's roster. And Ammy wasn't in TvC's roster. But that game had Mega Man Voulnutt, so that made up for it. One day, I will have a team of one of the Mega Men, Zero, and some un-important 3rd character.

Zero has an X costume. Does that count?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Roy has a higher falling speed, creating a much stronger SHFFL. While his speed for attacks and dashing is by technicality standards slower, it's very minimal almost to the point of being irrelevant. For contrast, his power is by technicality standards lower then Marth's.

I thought this was an interesting claim, particularly the part claiming that Marth's speed advantages are minimal to the point of being irrelevant because that didn't match my experiences. Here's what Marth has over Roy (IASA means "interruptable as soon as" and is the time it takes to be generally free to act, not the same as the mostly irrelevant animation length):

Ftilt hits 2 frames faster and is IASA 5 frames faster.
Dtilt hits 1 frame faster and allows shield 8 frames faster (IASA for non-shield actions is identical)
Utilt hits 1 frame faster and is IASA 8 frames faster
Dash attack has essentially identifical frame data
Fsmash hits 2 frames faster and is IASA 6 frames faster
Usmash hits 2 frames faster (same IASA)
Dsmash hits 1 frame faster with first hit, 3 frames faster with second hit, and is IASA 10 frames faster
Nair hits 1 frame faster with first hit, 2 frames faster with second hit, is IASA 1 frame faster if finished in the air, and has 3 fewer frames of lag with l-cancel
Uair is IASA 4 frames faster if finished in the air and has 2 fewer frames of lag with l-cancel (same hit frame)
Bair hits 1 frame faster and is IASA 8 frames faster if finished in the air (same landing lag with l-cancel)
Dair hits 1 frame faster and is IASA 5 frames faster if finished in the air (same landing lag with l-cancel)
Fair hits 1 frame faster, is IASA 5 frames faster if finished in the air, and has 3 fewer frames of landing lag with l-cancel
Counter begins active frames 3 frames faster (same total commitment on whiff)
Dancing Blade has essentially identical frame data between the two of them (some obvious variation when they actually do different attacks)
Neutral special has essentially identical frame data other than that Roy's takes a lot longer to charge.
Dolphin Slash hits 4 frames faster and lasts 9 fewer frames. Roy has his literal only relevant point of frame data advantage here though as his landing lag from fall special is 4 frames faster.
Grabs are identical.
Rolls and dodges are identical.
Marth leaves the ground 1 frame faster when jumping.

Funny thing, before I started going through it, I wasn't quite sure just how much worse Roy is than Marth other than intuitively "a lot". Wow, Roy is bad, especially when it comes to the recovery times of things which is doubly bad when you consider that Roy's hit properties punish him for spacing stuff fully so you end up with this laggy stuff that only hits at full power if you space so badly you'll get punished on block for sure. Something like SHFFL fair even doesn't really go Roy's way. Marth leaves the ground one frame faster and hs a fair that starts up 1 frame faster so you're hitting 2 frames faster to start if you choose to attack at max speed (which you don't necessarily have to), and then Marth recovers 3 frames faster from the overall action with the l-cancel which has to make up for any possible advantage from Roy's falling speed and really is even better since you can always just do the aerial later if you want more safety on Marth but there's nothing Roy can do to be that safe.

Apparently Roy actually does have a 7 frame faster SHFF time which I do have to admit is nice (only 6 frame advantage if you consider Marth's faster pre-jump animation), but in terms of overall speed that's definitely a less big deal than Marth's mountain of other advantages. That fall speed in the context of the overall game is even pretty debatable in terms of merit. On the plus side it gives that nice SHFF for approaching grounded opponents and makes him more resiliant to vertical KOs; it's definitely better against spacies on those grounds at least. On the minus side, it makes him fully cg'd by Sheik, makes his recovery worse, and hurts his ability to air to air which is definitely the more relevant factor against Peach and Jigglypuff so that's one general disadvantage and three top tier match-ups that it's a definite downside in. I'm not familiar enough with Melee ICs or Falcon to know what kinds of combos they have that vary between Marth and Roy based on the fall speed difference, but that would be the next point to investigate if you were super interested in breaking down just how good or bad Roy's fall speed is for him.

Well, that was a fun way to spend a half an hour. I sure hope no character is as outclassed in smash 4 as poor Roy...

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Zero has an X costume. Does that count?

When I say Mega Man, I mean classic.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Well I never exactly claimed Roy was better because he had arguably better mobility, because that mobility is wasted on his really bad aerial game and the inverted hitboxes of the Sword of Seals making Roy more vulnerable to punishing. Those are several reasons why Roy is out classed by Marth, the other is the faster falling speed as mentioned, though in some cases that's where he has an advantage over Marth.

 

[Aurane]

Been making plans on getting GTA 5. I need something new to play.

 

[Muster]

Been making plans on getting GTA 5. I need something new to play.

Warning you right now, i have lost family members to that game.