Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[Starphoenix]

The changes they made in Brawl didn't alienate players?

he was only, kinda the worst character in the game

Yeah, Sakurai really has some funny views on things. That quote is the reason I was surprised when I saw Bowser in the E3 trailer. Sakurai seems to be going in an opposite direction than the one he took with Brawl, so hopefully that will manifest itself with Ganondorf too.

 

[Bowserlick]

Changes to Ganondorf's Moveset​

Specials​

B Energy Sphere: Tosses an energy sphere. Startup lag similar to Falcon Punch. Ball occupies dodge space, although sidestepping or dodging will result in far less knockback, but the character will take damage. Can be reflected with an attack. Grows bigger with each attack and requires a stronger attack to reflect each time. Only one sphere per Ganondorf on screen at a time.​

Up B Warlock Levitation: Floats for a limited time. Press of A will cause him to come crashing down with a fist that causes a shockwave when it hits the ground.​

Down B Vortex Grip: Ganondorf's fists glow purple, his cape flows backwards and a vacuum effect (similar to his Up A Leg lift) pulls in opponents and projectiles directly in front of him. If an enemy collides with Ganondorf's chest, an electrical shock with knock them back with stun.​

*Uses include slowing down his energy sphere to confuse the opponent's timing if they planned on hitting it back and dragging in enemies for close up fighting.​

Smashes​

Forward Smash Sword Strike: Materializes a sword from dark energy and swings it downwards in front of his body​

Down Smash Dark Palm: Faces screen, creates a crackling purple orb of energy between his hands in front of his chest, then rips it apart and extends electrical palms outwards on both sides.​

Up Smash Rising Warlock Punch: A weaker yet chargeable Warlock punch that strikes above Ganondorf​

Tilts​

Up Tilt: Old Up Smash​

Aerials​

Up A: Stretches his arms above his head and a dark electric current jumps between palms for a second​

Neutral A: A single strong kick as he yells like a beast​

Back A: Drives an elbow backwards​

Dash​

Creates an electrical trident that he stabs forward​

 

[Smooth Criminal]

None of Texas' best players were in attendance for that tourney, Hyper. Not even the MK players.

Also, one tournament =/= a character's viability, not even in a nutshell.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Morbi]

Yet Sakurai himself mains Ganondorf.

Backwards, much?

Sakurai confirmed as a low tier warrior.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

None of Texas' best players were in attendance for that tourney, Hyper. Not even the MK players.

Also, one tournament =/= a character's viability, not even in a nutshell.

Smooth Criminal

Fact is, he was viable enough to win a full tourney. All of that(who attended) is entirely irrelevant to my point. There are tons of beyond far better character like Snake that outright slaughter him that he should've had zero chance of winning anyway(or even Falco). I disagree with him being worst. And so does the overall Tier list. He's fighting with Link and Zelda for last and has been for a while now.

One of the worst is still the only correct statement at this time.

 

[Morbi]

Fact is, he was viable enough to win a full tourney. All of that(who attended) is entirely irrelevant to my point. There are tons of beyond far better character like Snake that outright slaughter him that he should've had zero chance of winning anyway(or even Falco). I disagree with him being worst. And so does the overall Tier list. He's fighting with Link and Zelda for last and has been for a while now.

One of the worst is still the only correct statement at this time.

This is why I am sad, in Melee, I used to main Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. I was the Triforce, baby! In this game, the only one I can touch is Zelda (thanks to Sheik).

 

[Berserker.]

It's the same as Melee, but his recovery only ultimately suffers due to the change to Wizard's Foot. I don't remember any difference. The other issue is entirely unrelated to Dark Dive, and his weight was increased if I remember correctly. I saw no difference with Dark Dive between Melee and Brawl outside of the animation.

I think I remember, you can mid air jump after using Wizard's foot. Is that what you're talking about?

His recovery was still easy to edgeguard in Melee and it was still regarded as crap by many Ganon users. It was mainly used as an attack-combo ender.

It depends if it's Toon Ganondorf or regular Ganondorf. Regular Ganondorf is all about power. Toon Ganondorf is severely about grace. And again, his swords are what makes Ganondorf's overall character since OOT. It ain't a 3D version of Ganon/Dorf without a sword(or two). It's just a poor imitation of his character. He displays the sword even in OOT before turning into Ganon among the cutscenes and concept art. I don't know where you get the idea that Ganondorf's true weapon isn't a sword(or two) since that's a huge part of his overall characterization. He's one of the few Wizards who can use Swords.

To restate, I'm fine with him having no swords. Doesn't mean I'm totally against it. I'd be against it if we're gonna go Toon Ganondorf style of swordplay which is grace (We have the she-man for a reason). As I stated, I would be fine if he were some sort of a juggernaut with the sword.

It's his only correctly named magical attack. Since he's a Wizard.

Not saying it's wrong but it still sounds silly to me.

 

[IsmaR]

It doesn't work that way, Hyper. Controlled specimens or otherwise, don't ever assume any variables make even a single case unbiased.

Please stop digging your hole deeper, I actually like you

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think I remember, you can mid air jump after using Wizard's foot. Is that what you're talking about?

Yes. This is why I find his recovery bad in Brawl overall. Dark Dive in Brawl looks better, but I don't remember any differences at all.

His recovery was still easy to edgeguard in Melee and it was still regarded as crap by many Ganon users. It was mainly used as an attack-combo ender.

I found it more than useful enough, seeing as how I had no trouble winning while using it, but eh.

To restate, I'm fine with him having no swords. Doesn't mean I'm totally against it. I'd be against it if we're gonna go Toon Ganondorf style of swordplay which is grace (We have the she-man for a reason). As I stated, I would be fine if he were some sort of a juggernaut with the sword.

Toon Ganondorf is his only sword style I can support. Because the rest are not unique enough to be worth giving him one. Slow sword users are too common. Nobody uses two swords at all, or is even really graceful either.

Not saying it's wrong but it still sounds silly to me.

No better name, though.

I don't care. Ganondorf is not the worst character in Brawl at this time.(and when you got crappy ones like Link and Zelda pining for the spot...) I refuse to budge on this. He won a tourney. End of story. This tells me he's not the worst, no matter what.

 

[Starphoenix]

Depending upon how Sakurai designs Zelda will probably give us a good idea how Ganondorf will look. The Zelda art style mystery has been one that has intrigued me for awhile now, and we'll find out a little bit more about that in a little under four weeks from now.

 

[Morbi]

Depending upon how Sakurai designs Zelda will probably give us a good idea how Ganondorf will look. The Zelda art style mystery has been one that has intrigued me for awhile now, and we'll find out a little bit more about that in a little under four weeks from now.

I am praying to our gracious Lord Lucifer, bringer of light, that Sakurai chooses her SS design. I highly doubt it will happen though. Not to mention that might actually entail that Ganon gets a Demise re-skin. Which wouldn't really be the best idea in my opinion. So I guess we are still getting MILF Zelda.

 

[IsmaR]

I think I'm a bit defensive on this because I know like every competitive Link and Zelda main ever.

 

[Berserker.]

I found it more than useful enough, seeing as how I had no trouble winning while using it, but eh.

Ganondorf still has a bunch of advantages that made him viable in melee tourneys which made his crappy recovery tolerable. It's just that he has disadvantages like all characters, his recovery being one of them.

Toon Ganondorf is his only sword style I can support. Because the rest are not unique enough to be worth giving him one. Slow sword users are too common. Nobody uses two swords at all, or is even really graceful either.

The only slow sword user I know is Ike. Link isn't really THAT slow. His start up is fast (At times, somewhat fast). It's just the ending lag (And the damage trade off) that's bad so it's the similar case with Snake (Who has by far superior tilts). Pit is fast but not graceful. If anything, it's quite fierce and fast. Marth is purely graceful. Ike is slow but powerful.

Adding dual swords with grace won't really add that much to be honest other than additional damage (And vulnerability to DI/SDI if it's going to be a multi-hitter). Plus, we're forgetting that Ganondorf needs to retain his powerful brutal towering strength. Grace isn't really in the lines of that.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

MILF Zelda.

I think it'll be a mix of both.

You up for the ditto thing btw or you want them tomorrow?

 

[Morbi]

I think it'll be a mix of both.

You up for the ditto thing btw or you want them tomorrow?

Tomorrow, currently I am away from my DS. I am actually supposed to be heading to bed, but ain't nobody got time fo dat.

 

[Starphoenix]

No way is Zelda getting her SS design solely. There might be elements mixed in along with some of her other designs, like Link, but she's probably going to wind up an amalgamation.

 

[Berserker.]

No way is Zelda getting her SS design solely. There might be elements mixed in along with some of her other designs, like Link, but she's probably going to wind up an amalgamation.

Not much people like her as a character in Twilight Princess but...

Um....

She's still pretty hot, so I'm fine with it staying as TP design

But I'm all for the SS design (But it's not gonna happen).

 

[Morbi]

No way is Zelda getting her SS design solely. There might be elements mixed in along with some of her other designs, like Link, but she's probably going to wind up an amalgamation.

So do you think she is going to be more of a teen, or more of a MILF? Like a blonde MILF with teen clothes? Or a brunette teen with MILF clothes? Or do you think they will just make her a young adult (20ish) and give her the MILF clothes but the blonde hair?

These questions NEED answering.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ganondorf still has a bunch of advantages that made him viable in melee tourneys which made his crappy recovery tolerable. It's just that he has disadvantages like all characters, his recovery being one of them.

He's still not the worst in Brawl. He's tied for it with two characters. I entirely disagree with Zelda or Link being truly better.

The only slow sword user I know is Ike. Link isn't really THAT slow. His start up is fast (At times, somewhat fast). It's just the ending lag (And the damage trade off) that's bad so it's the similar case with Snake (Who has by far superior tilts). Pit is fast but not graceful. If anything, it's quite fierce and fast. Marth is purely graceful. Ike is slow but powerful.

I'd definitely call Link and Marth slower ones too. But Ganondorf being a slow sword user is pointless. We have those kind already. We have zero with two swords, which is the only reason to even bother with swords in the first place. If he's just going to be a slow sword user, why bother? He would bring absolutely nothing to the table.

Adding dual swords with grace won't really add that much to be honest other than additional damage (And vulnerability to DI/SDI if it's going to be a multi-hitter). Plus, we're forgetting that Ganondorf needs to retain his powerful brutal towering strength. Grace isn't really in the lines of that.

No, he doesn't. He was graceful in Wind Waker while still retaining his full characterization as a dictator and a powerhouse. He doesn't chokehold anyone outside of that game either.

His sword bits being graceful while his other attacks being physically brutal fits his characterization perfectly. He isn't "one fighting style" and never was. He has multiples of them throughout the series. This is actually what makes him one of the best final bosses. He can use more than one fighting style, especially with swords, making him a good character overall in design. Also, he looked out of shape while being graceful, which shows that he can do anything regardless of his looks. I never found any of his sword fights great outside of WW, since that's the only challenging one. I actually hate his characterization in other games because he's just a boring as hell overlord that has nothing notable. Yay, he's evil. WW at least gave him something worth noting, like a reason to rule besides to hurt others. Or that we know he'd fully hurt a child instead of stunning them like in OOT. He jumped between a borderline "save lives" to a evil ******* throughout one game and never was one or the other for long. I loved this iteration and I find he deserves his Toon representation, showing off who the real Ganondorf is, an intelligent mastermind who kicks ass, takes names, and nothing stands in his way(and actually shows it instead of it being entirely offscreen). His physical design was also unique by retaining how he was kind of big in his Ganon form, and showed his wise and agile he was, despite all this.

Or to put it one other way, I hate OOT Ganondorf and TP Ganondorf's characterization with a passion. They were terribly designed character that had nothing to them besides being worth fighting gameplay-wise. Toon Ganondorf had that and actually was well-made in all aspects.

 

[IsmaR]

M.I.L.F. initials stop skewing my miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

YOU MEAN MARTH ISN'T A WOMAN!?!!!???!?!!!!!???????

Birdo says hi!

 

[Starphoenix]

So do you think she is going to be more of a teen, or more of a MILF? Like a blonde MILF with teen clothes? Or a brunette teen with MILF clothes? Or do you think they will just make her a young adult (20ish) and give her the MILF clothes but the blonde hair?

These questions NEED answering.

She'll probably have that Twilight Princess age like Link, except with Blonde hair and a more ornate dress in line with Ocarina of Time. I think facially she'll probably take elements from Skyward Sword.

 

[Morbi]

Birdo says hi!

Birdo doesn't even look like a chica. Only Americans with their arbitrary color correlations would make that false assumption. Haha, just joking... but seriously.

 

[Jaedrik]

Birdo doesn't even look like a chica. Only Americans with their arbitrary color correlations would make that false assumption. Haha, just joking... but seriously.

Did you know? Pink was originally supposed to be the boy color because it is based off red, the more aggressive color.

I hope she doesn't have SS nose or outfit. . . or bangs. Zelda that is.

 

[Morbi]

Did you know? Pink was originally supposed to be the boy color because it is based off red, the more aggressive color.

I hope she doesn't have SS nose or outfit. . . or bangs. Zelda that is.

Yes, I did, it is pretty interesting stuff. I actually learned about it just a few months ago.

You don't want her MJ nose? Why?!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If SS Zelda design means we don't get Sheik back like she should be, then it's not worth getting SS Zelda. Having both is what makes her what she is in Smash. Her entire thing is being two specific versions of herself and working together to overcome an opponent by switching among her forms. That's her concept.

If SS Zelda design gives us a SS Sheik design, then I'm okay with it. I didn't like SS design that much though. She looked less like a Princess, which is kind of major to her character, and more like a generic girl in a dress(I know that was intentional, but the design puts me off). I'm hoping for TP designs with some SS and OOT strokes in the art.

 

[Jaedrik]

Yes, I did, it is pretty interesting stuff. I actually learned about it just a few months ago.

You don't want her MJ nose? Why?!

One thing that seems to be common among primates is feature proportions we consider 'cute', namely, small nose, small lips, big eyes, big ears. It's a reason why bishounens are so geddan hot to everyone as exemplified by Marth these past few days.
Not many things are universal, and indeed there always seems to be one culture that is an exception to the rule, but I think I've already talked about the three exceptions that are universal attractions in every culture regardless: Waist-hip in women, symmetry, and how a man's immune system (or really just DNA) smells.

 

["Shion"]

**** primates.

 

[Morbi]

One thing that seems to be common among primates is feature proportions we consider 'cute', namely, small nose, small lips, big eyes, big ears. It's a reason why bishounens are so geddan hot to everyone as exemplified by Marth these past few days.
Not many things are universal, and indeed there always seems to be one culture that is an exception to the rule, but I think I've already talked about the three exceptions that are universal attractions in every culture regardless: Waist-hip in women, symmetry, and how a man's immune system (or really just DNA) smells.

I must be HIDEOUS then. My big ole nose... and my big ole lips... not to mention my small eyes and tiny ears.

 

["Shion"]

I have a face carved by ****ing angles and jizzed by God himself.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

I must be HIDEOUS then. My big ole nose... and my big ole lips... not to mention my small eyes and tiny ears.

I don't find that hideous, sounds good to me.

@monk4 So I have big eyes and stuff, So that means primates think i'm cute then?

 

[Morbi]

I don't find that hideous, sounds good to me.

@monk4 So I have big eyes and stuff, So that means primates think i'm cute then?

You could get a date with Donkey Kong. I am so jelly.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

You could get a date with Donkey Kong. I am so jelly.

Ah dang.... moon monkey is gonna kill me.

He be after da luscious fur too ya know.

 

[Berserker.]

He's still not the worst in Brawl. He's tied for it with two characters. I entirely disagree with Zelda or Link being truly better.

Um... Where did that come from? I wasn't even talking about Brawl there. Was talking about Melee Dorf and he was far from the worst.

I'd definitely call Link and Marth slower ones too. But Ganondorf being a slow sword user is pointless. We have those kind already. We have zero with two swords, which is the only reason to even bother with swords in the first place. If he's just going to be a slow sword user, why bother? He would bring absolutely nothing to the table.

Marth's attacks are fast. That's one of his main advantages. There's frame data supporting that.

Plus, we only have one slow sword user type (Ike).

No, he doesn't. He was graceful in Wind Waker while still retaining his full characterization as a dictator and a powerhouse. He doesn't chokehold anyone outside of that game either.

His sword bits being graceful while his other attacks being physically brutal fits his characterization perfectly. He isn't "one fighting style" and never was. He has multiples of them throughout the series. This is actually what makes him one of the best final bosses. He can use more than one fighting style, especially with swords, making him a good character overall in design. Also, he looked out of shape while being graceful, which shows that he can do anything regardless of his looks. I never found any of his sword fights great outside of WW, since that's the only challenging one. I actually hate his characterization in other games because he's just a boring as hell overlord that has nothing notable. Yay, he's evil. WW at least gave him something worth noting, like a reason to rule besides to hurt others. Or that we know he'd fully hurt a child instead of stunning them like in OOT. He jumped between a borderline "save lives" to a evil ******* throughout one game and never was one or the other for long. I loved this iteration and I find he deserves his Toon representation, showing off who the real Ganondorf is, an intelligent mastermind who kicks ***, takes names, and nothing stands in his way(and actually shows it instead of it being entirely offscreen). His physical design was also unique by retaining how he was kind of big in his Ganon form, and showed his wise and agile he was, despite all this.

Or to put it one other way, I hate OOT Ganondorf and TP Ganondorf's characterization with a passion. They were terribly designed character that had nothing to them besides being worth fighting gameplay-wise. Toon Ganondorf had that and actually was well-made in all aspects.

Problem is Ganondorf is generalized as a brutal powerful overlord who wants to rule over everything. A moveset has to make a character faithful to his series. His "gracefulness" only is visible in one game and that's Wind Waker. He uses his sword to crush foes and make them feel the weight of his blades. Even his design in Melee and Brawl focus on that (Just with no sword).

And yeah, WW Ganondorf was awesome but he has characteristics that all other Ganondorfs do not have which is a problem. He still shares something common with all other Ganondorfs (2 of which you deem terribly design), they're ruthless, evil and brutal and those are the only things needed to be present in the feeling of his moveset

Most people like Ganondorf that way and know him as that type of character so you have to give them a moveset that makes it feel like the general outlook of Ganondorf

 

[Morbi]

Um... Where did that come from? I wasn't even talking about Brawl there. Was talking about Melee Dorf and he was far from the worst.



Marth's attacks are fast. That's one of his main advantages. There's frame data supporting that.

Plus, we only have one slow sword user type (Ike).

Problem is Ganondorf is generalized as a brutal powerful overlord who wants to rule over everything. A moveset has to make a character faithful to his series. His "gracefulness" only is visible in one game and that's Wind Waker. He uses his sword to crush foes and make them feel the weight of his blades. Even his design in Melee and Brawl focus on that (Just with no sword).

And yeah, WW Ganondorf was awesome but he has characteristics that all other Ganondorfs do not have which is a problem. He still shares something common with all other Ganondorfs (2 of which you deem terribly design), they're ruthless, evil and brutal and those are the only things needed to be present in the feeling of his moveset

Most people like Ganondorf that way and know him as that type of character so you have to give them a moveset that makes it feel like the general outlook of Ganondorf

I think Link qualifies as a slow sword user. Marth is pretty slow, or at least his normals.

 

[Berserker.]

I think Link qualifies as a slow sword user.

My blurbing bad about that. He's usually known as that type anyway

Marth is pretty slow, or at least his normals.

No they aren't. Very far from it.

His attack speed is his advantage and why he can combo so well

It's quoted in Marth's trophy
"Marth is a magnificent swordsman. While his swordplay is faster than that of Link, he lacks power, and his quickness is offset by a marginal endurance."
then again, frame data support

 

[Morbi]

My blurbing bad about that. He's usually known as that type anyway


No they aren't. Very far from it.

His attack speed is his advantage and why he can combo so well

It's quoted in Marth's trophy
"Marth is a magnificent swordsman. While his swordplay is faster than that of Link, he lacks power, and his quickness is offset by a marginal endurance."

Are we talking about Brawl? I mean't Brawl. Marth is fast in Melee.

 

[Berserker.]

Are we talking about Brawl? I mean't Brawl. Marth is fast in Melee.

His attacks were fast in Brawl also. In fact, his fast attacks are his main pros (Other than them being powerful also)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Um... Where did that come from? I wasn't even talking about Brawl there. Was talking about Melee Dorf and he was far from the worst.

Wasn't entirely to you.

Marth's attacks are fast. That's one of his main advantages. There's frame data supporting that.

Slower than Roy. I consider him a slow swordsman in Melee, same with Link, since their counterparts are faster. I don't care what the frame data says here. That's how I categorize 'em.

Plus, we only have one slow sword user type (Ike).

I count Link in Brawl for this as well.

Problem is Ganondorf is generalized as a brutal powerful overlord who wants to rule over everything. A moveset has to make a character faithful to his series. His "gracefulness" only is visible in one game and that's Wind Waker. He uses his sword to crush foes and make them feel the weight of his blades. Even his design in Melee and Brawl focus on that (Just with no sword).

That is not his overall design. He has multiple ones. There is no exact design he follows. He was far faster in Melee than in Brawl, and he wasn't hyper slow in Melee either, just kind of slow. So I fully don't buy this applies in nay way.

And yeah, WW Ganondorf was awesome but he has characteristics that all other Ganondorfs do not have which is a problem. He still shares something common with all other Ganondorfs (2 of which you deem terribly design), they're ruthless, evil and brutal and those are the only things needed to be present in the feeling of his moveset

No, that's what you think should be present, not what everybody does. I consider them terrible design because they're outright ****ty characters that have zero characterization that makes you care about them. I don't care if they're a fun fight. That's not a character, it's just a boring boss that exists for hell of it. He also did not belong in Twilight Princess and was one of the biggest flaws of the game. He ruined a ten times better character, Zant, for the purpose of a silly and unnecessary boss fight(and the only good thing TP Ganondorf even gave). I would've gladly left him out of TP if it meant Zant was the final boss and they did a better job with the story. Since the only consistent things about Ganondorf is that he transforms into a variation of Ganon, and that he has a sword in some way, and finally, is actually a human who moved at a good speed(and never was slow, Smash only time being the exception), I have a hard time buying what you're saying. OOT gave him no real characterization. He's just a generic villain who kidnaps people and destroys things. TP is exactly the same. WW, wait, made him a real character and not a generic boss that just happened to be the main bad guy of the plot.

No, the problem is that they used his lame version from TP in Brawl, instead of his only good characterization, forcing him to be a lame clone instead of his own character. Giving him a single sword will not do anything for him in SSB4. At all. What it will do is make him another generic swordsman who happens to be slow and heavy. Ooh, yay. Giving him two swords will force an unique moveset that will show that Ganondorf deserves to be represented as a strong and mobile character(like he overall is among tons of games. Or did we forget his teleportation? Yes, he's actually pretty mobile as Ganon or Ganondorf in most cases), like he should've been in Brawl. Maybe he wouldn't have shared bottom tier with Link and Zelda, who were also poorly designed.

Most people like Ganondorf that way and know him as that type of character so you have to give them a moveset that makes it feel like the general outlook of Ganondorf

I see something quite different from that statement. I see people who think he should have a sword and not be a Falcon clone. Nowhere did I ever read anyone talk about using his boring slow swordset designs. It was just "give him a sword".

 

[Morbi]

His attacks were fast in Brawl also. In fact, his fast attacks are his main pros (Other than them being powerful also)

I don't know about that. The start up on his neutral normal is insanely long. I am not sure about the rest of his moves, I know they nerfed his speed quite dramatically. He still might be faster than other characters. I will try him out soon. For some reason, Marth is the most hype reveal for me. I am actually getting excited about Smash again. So I will give him a shot next time I am on Brawl. I just remember him being REALLY slow. I could be wrong though.