Super Effective! Ivysaur match-up thread. [Updated for 3.0+]

undeadasimov

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#41
Ivy doesn't lose to Snake, it's even at worst imo

We lose pretty badly to Captain Falcon and Lucario, I think ZSS is even

You should at separate 4x effective and ineffective to differentiate between "we beat them" and "we beat them badly"

Ivysaur Matchups IMO:

Super Effective! (x4) (people who Ivy beats badly)
DK
D3

Super effective! (x2) (people who Ivy beats)
ZSS
Tink
Bowser
Puff
Wario

About Neutral (player experience is main variable)
Ness
Peach
Ike*
Charizard*
Squirtle
Snake
Sheik
Luigi*
Ganondorf
Mr. Game and Watch*
Diddy Kong*
ROB*

Not very effective... (x2) (Consider Switching, hope opponent doesn't know the MU)
Fox
Wolf
Mario
Lucario
Falcon
Pit
Zelda
Link

Not very effective... (x4) (Switch out to have a chance or pray your opponent doesn't know that MU)
Marth
Sonic
Falco
Lucas

* = I haven't played the MU and can't come to a conclusion based on theory alone so I put it as even
(i know this is an old post and might have been made prior to the current patch)
Everything seems on point from my prespective aside from one thing. That thing being an ivysaur losing to a cap falcon. Captain seems to have trouble getting in range enough to use his effective moves and his knee can be really had to land given the range on Ivysaur's f-air/b-air.
Can you give some extra perspective as to why you think Captian is such a good match up against Ivysaur?
 
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Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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#42
(i know this is an old post and might have been made prior to the current patch)
Everything seems on point from my prespective aside from one thing. That thing being an ivysaur losing to a cap falcon. Captain seems to have trouble getting in range enough to use his effective moves and his knee can be really had to land given the range on Ivysaur's f-air/b-air.
Can you give some extra perspective as to why you think Captian is such a good match up against Ivysaur?
Because 2.5 :)
 

Machiavelli.CF

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#44
Your thoughts on Captain Falcon?
I often find Captain Falcon pretty challenging. He doesn't have much trouble ripping you apart once he gets something started. I feel like winning is a matter of being safe and efficient while cornering him and/or catching him out of a jump so he doesn't find an opening from a missed fair/tilt/what have you. I have been knocked out by a Falcon (Lucky/JaimeHR) at two of the big tournaments I've attended recently. This is a match-up I personally prefer to handle with my Dedede instead.
 
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#45
I often find Captain Falcon pretty challenging. He doesn't have much trouble ripping you apart once he gets something started. I feel like winning is a matter of being safe and efficient while cornering him and/or catching him out of a jump so he doesn't find an opening from a missed fair/tilt/what have you. I have been knocked out by a Falcon (Lucky/JaimeHR) at two of the big tournaments I've attended recently. This is a match-up I personally prefer to handle with my Dedede instead.
I would think that Ivy has a lot of good options to shut Falcon down. Side b, down b, and bair?
 
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#46
In 2.6, Ivysaur destroyed Captain Falcon, no questions asked. 60:40 Ivy at the very least. Ivy didn't have to commit with her high priority aerials and good aerial mobility (think of Wario or Puff with that range), piss-easy shield pressure with a non-committal razor leaf, an easymode gimp game on Falcon, and the relative difficulty in Falcon edgeguarding her, which would require him to make hard commitments offstage where half the time she'd still come back. And to some of you saying that Falcon gets guaranteed down throw Knees, if you DI down and away with Ivysaur, you can get out of a lot of those Knee set ups at mid percents and tech the ground or grab the ledge. If you disagree with how skewed the MU was in Ivy's favor in 2.6 then you were a bad Ivysaur player, imo. At least in this MU.

Now in 3.0, it seems like she's much less ridiculous. I don't know all the changes, but she doesn't feel like an impenetrable wall this time and it seems like she does have to make more commitments, which gives her the opportunity for her to be punished more by more characters. I know Razor Leaf was redesigned (this is probably the best form of razor leaf I've seen compared to all others), she has a windbox instead of a 2 frame solar shine on her synthesis now (which was a pretty smart replacement), her aerials are obviously different in some way (I don't know how), but in a way that make them less dumb, and she seems a bit easier to edgeguard now. Maybe down air's properties were changed? Not too sure.

Anyway, the point is that in 3.0, Ivysaur actually has to think now and though I believe that 3.0 Ivy is a shadow of her former self, the match up with Falcon is probably slightly in her favor, though I can understand people who say it's even. Falcon does have an easier time getting in now. And when Falcon gets in, things can get ugly. Falcon doesn't have to get trapped in shield from a move the opponent threw from across the stage anymore. Plus it seems that the strategy of using shield approaches to get under Ivy's fullhop aerials and responding OoS has more merit, so using shield has more utility. She can't mash out of combos with her solar shine anymore (she can still mash out with nair, which I generally don't mind. Falcons should just treat her like Luigi in those situations). And edgeguarding does seem a bit easier, though maybe that's just me. Despite all of these improvements, 3.0 Ivy still excels in nearly all of the aspects she did in 2.6 against Falcon (or at least the ones that matter): Really good aerials and a superb gimp game. However, since Falcon can get stuff started now, Ivy's just need to play smarter which is the direction the character (and all characters) should go.

55:45 Ivy, imo.
 

TreK

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#47
What he lacks in range, he makes up for in movement speed, and still has that enormous damage output that far outclasses Ivysaur's.
So if you're going to put up a wall, make it leagues better than the wall you'd put on somebody else. He's only got a couple good moves : his grab, which leads to everything he wants it to lead to, his dair, which is safe on shield and sets up for grabs at low % and knees at higher % until about 100% if you're still alive by then, his knee which is also safe on shield, links into itself, deals 25% and kills you ridiculously early, his uair which is basically his combo extender and antiair, and his jab which is also very, very good. So he can concentrate on spacing extremely well, but meanwhile, you can concentrate on just shutting down these moves.
His speed is going to be your biggest problem though. By the time you finish your full hop fair, he's had the time to dash dance two times in and out of your range and still be in time to sh uair you.
Our biggest strength in the matchup is, as always, our edgeguarding. The hard part is getting him offstage of course. Since he's a fastfaller, landing grabs is also going to be crucial to your winning, because this is the most reliable way we have to set up a kill move against him.

All in all, play a very reaction based game, don't let him in, edgeguard consistently, and
DON'T.
SHIELD.
(or blink)

Don't listen to me though, I suck at that matchup :V
(which is my way of saying, if you see me stating bull****, call me out, it'll be a learning experience at worst.)
 
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#48
In 2.6, Ivysaur destroyed Captain Falcon, no questions asked. 60:40 Ivy at the very least. Ivy didn't have to commit with her high priority aerials and good aerial mobility (think of Wario or Puff with that range), piss-easy shield pressure with a non-committal razor leaf, an easymode gimp game on Falcon, and the relative difficulty in Falcon edgeguarding her, which would require him to make hard commitments offstage where half the time she'd still come back. And to some of you saying that Falcon gets guaranteed down throw Knees, if you DI down and away with Ivysaur, you can get out of a lot of those Knee set ups at mid percents and tech the ground or grab the ledge. If you disagree with how skewed the MU was in Ivy's favor in 2.6 then you were a bad Ivysaur player, imo. At least in this MU.

Now in 3.0, it seems like she's much less ridiculous. I don't know all the changes, but she doesn't feel like an impenetrable wall this time and it seems like she does have to make more commitments, which gives her the opportunity for her to be punished more by more characters. I know Razor Leaf was redesigned (this is probably the best form of razor leaf I've seen compared to all others), she has a windbox instead of a 2 frame solar shine on her synthesis now (which was a pretty smart replacement), her aerials are obviously different in some way (I don't know how), but in a way that make them less dumb, and she seems a bit easier to edgeguard now. Maybe down air's properties were changed? Not too sure.

Anyway, the point is that in 3.0, Ivysaur actually has to think now and though I believe that 3.0 Ivy is a shadow of her former self, the match up with Falcon is probably slightly in her favor, though I can understand people who say it's even. Falcon does have an easier time getting in now. And when Falcon gets in, things can get ugly. Falcon doesn't have to get trapped in shield from a move the opponent threw from across the stage anymore. Plus it seems that the strategy of using shield approaches to get under Ivy's fullhop aerials and responding OoS has more merit, so using shield has more utility. She can't mash out of combos with her solar shine anymore (she can still mash out with nair, which I generally don't mind. Falcons should just treat her like Luigi in those situations). And edgeguarding does seem a bit easier, though maybe that's just me. Despite all of these improvements, 3.0 Ivy still excels in nearly all of the aspects she did in 2.6 against Falcon (or at least the ones that matter): Really good aerials and a superb gimp game. However, since Falcon can get stuff started now, Ivy's just need to play smarter which is the direction the character (and all characters) should go.

55:45 Ivy, imo.
What he lacks in range, he makes up for in movement speed, and still has that enormous damage output that far outclasses Ivysaur's.
So if you're going to put up a wall, make it leagues better than the wall you'd put on somebody else. He's only got a couple good moves : his grab, which leads to everything he wants it to lead to, his dair, which is safe on shield and sets up for grabs at low % and knees at higher % until about 100% if you're still alive by then, his knee which is also safe on shield, links into itself, deals 25% and kills you ridiculously early, his uair which is basically his combo extender and antiair, and his jab which is also very, very good. So he can concentrate on spacing extremely well, but meanwhile, you can concentrate on just shutting down these moves.
His speed is going to be your biggest problem though. By the time you finish your full hop fair, he's had the time to dash dance two times in and out of your range and still be in time to sh uair you.
Our biggest strength in the matchup is, as always, our edgeguarding. The hard part is getting him offstage of course. Since he's a fastfaller, landing grabs is also going to be crucial to your winning, because this is the most reliable way we have to set up a kill move against him.

All in all, play a very reaction based game, don't let him in, edgeguard consistently, and
DON'T.
SHIELD.
(or blink)

Don't listen to me though, I suck at that matchup :V
(which is my way of saying, if you see me stating bull****, call me out, it'll be a learning experience at worst.)
Thank you, I will be back when I'm on Charizard.
Good bye for now! You are good people and I like the Ivysaur community.
 
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#50
i feel ivy vs roy is at best an even matchup but probably not in ivys favor. any other opinions on this?

i haven't played very many ivys matchups extensively but i'm glad to see the other 2 that i considered pretty hard matchups are in the right place. (marth and link)
 

TreK

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#51
I may just suck against fast fallers, but yeah, I'm having a bit of trouble comboing Roy too unless I manage to land a grab.
Once you get him offstage or anywhere near the ledge really, he's pretty much dead.
He's known to be the fastfallers' killer, but Ivy's bad horizontal and vertical air speeds make us pretty much a stationnary target to him. We get out of combos earlier than fast fallers, but we get out of juggles later. Just try to stop him from setting up a killmove and limit the damage as much as possible.

Speaking of Link. After talking to a Link main, turns out his two weaknesses are that he can't deal with CQC pressure, and he's unsafe on shield. Since we have no OOS game and no CQC pressure, what do I do ? :C
(I've tried to implement shield platform dropping to have at least a bit of OOS, but I'm still inconsistent at the moment)
 
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The Derrit

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#53
I feel like the matchup against ZSS is hell. =/

How do you guys feel about it?

:ivysaur:vs :zerosuitsamus:
She can't recover high, doesn't have a consistent way to get back on stage, and her projectiles and range are much worse than your projectiles and range. She is also perfect combo weight.

I find it very easy but maybe you can tell me what I'm missing here.
 

dgameman1

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#54
She can't recover high, doesn't have a consistent way to get back on stage, and her projectiles and range are much worse than your projectiles and range. She is also perfect combo weight.

I find it very easy but maybe you can tell me what I'm missing here.
Once she's offstage it's pretty easy, but the getting her offstage is a bit more difficult for me. Her stun laser goes a bit further than our razor leaf =/
 

The Derrit

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#55
Once she's offstage it's pretty easy, but the getting her offstage is a bit more difficult for me. Her stun laser goes a bit further than our razor leaf =/
Certainly true, but it doesn't cancel it out (to my knowledge) and is very easy to avoid. I would recommend finding ways around it - there are several.
 

TreK

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#56
If you can powershield the stun lazor that is a great tool to have by your side. It's pretty easy because there are only two timings at which she can fire it : fully uncharged, or fully charged. And she can't hold a charge so that's as straightforward as it sounds. The small one travels faster, but the big one stuns longer. Both of them have laser priority.
Otherwise yeah, just get around it. She can and will cancel the end animation with a forward dash though, so expect a rushdown right after the projectile.

She can boost her recovery by doing upB right as she uses her double jump. Catch her during the double jump and she's dead. Her down B does some kind of footstool that extends her recovery. Just bair it.
She's got some insane shield pressure with jabs and tilts, and dsmash and stun gun are both safe on shield. Which is aggravated since our shield sucks so much. So yeah, don't shield.

Don't run out of invincibility on the ledge, else you'll eat a dsmash to fully charged fsmash. And you really, really don't want to eat that combo.
 

Xiivi

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#57
I've found the Captain Falcon match-up fairly manageable. Everyone keeps telling me I play Ivysaur the same as I do Marth in melee. I feel that I probably play both match-ups pretty similarly between the two games.

The Falco match-up though... :urg:
 

jtm94

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#60
HelloIvy Thread!

Please help me fill this out all, trying to complete it as moderately accurate as possible.

I know some MUs won't be agreed on, if there is enough disagreement they can be left blank and we will ask the character on the other side.

I filled it in based on my moderate knowledge of some characters, but I don't get to face every char a lot.

green: advantageous
light green: slightly advantageous
grey: Even or tbd
yellow: slightly disadvantageous
Orange: disadvantageous
 

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Swann

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#61
What's everyones opinion on the Metaknight matchup?
I give the slight edge to MK, but it's pretty even. His mobility is absurd, he can juggle Ivy very well, he gets guaranteed throw followups, and he doesn't typically have a very hard time killing or gimping Ivysaur. He's probably one of the very few characters that can actively gimp Ivy. He has great mixups, although I hear that ftilt was changed to be less safe? Gonna need to look into that.

At the same time... MK is combo food, gimpable besides his billion jumps, you get free vine whips off throws, and he doesn't really have an answer to Ivy's hard zoning pressure (and leaf).
 
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#62
Speaking as an Ivysaur main and a Bowser secondary, Ivysaur just absolutely demolishes him. There is pretty much nothing he can do against razor leaf to fair/bair/grab. She can also down throw vine whip for some early damage. This isn't as reliable, but short hop up airs can be deadly and are a great way to charge up a solar beam.
 

kevinw0w

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#63
Why do people think Ivy beats ganon and mewtwo?
I generally think ganon is a bad character in PM, but he can be pretty effective against ivy. His wizard's foot has comparable range to razor leaf and actually beats it out. Every time you throw out a razor leaf, ganon can just kick you for it. His fair also beats ours and he can just kill super early.
Mewtwo I personally think is just really hard to follow up on. He also has great range and a recovery that is basically impossible to edgeguard. In my experience he's also one of the few characters that can edgeguard ivy pretty consistently - namely with float bairs - which is a really unusual spot to be in.

I also think Ivy beats snake, but I definitely would like to hear other opinions.
 

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#64
Hi.

So I'm having a lot of difficulties with the Ivy vs Diddy MU.

I can't seem to understand it at all.

Any help? Thanks! :D
 
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#66
I don't know if it's just me, but I think Zelda is a horrible matchup for Ivy. She is so floaty thats it's hard to continue combos and her recovery makes it hard to finish her off. Vine whip only works with down throw in early % and the din fires are hard to deal with
 

TreK

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#67
Do you mean luigi, mario or both, reflex ?

Zelda is a bit tricky yeah. I found out my Zelda cpu practice taught me how to combo her properly, because her fair can combo break our usual strings.
Since it's a rather slow matchup, I like to go for the hard reads : an early kill is a lot more helpful here than in a matchup where comebacks are easier. I'm starting to get a reputation for my "hey bro you shouldn't have jumped" vine whips haha
 

TreK

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#70
Oh okay :V

Yeah I don't like those matchups either. Oddly enough, I do like the Sonic matchup though
 

Swann

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#71
DD camping has been Ivy's biggest weakness since day 1, I feel like.

offtop: more and more, jab seems like a terrible option unless they're over 120%. Some characters (lighter ones), it's okay, but for a lot it feels like garbage. Advantaged jab would be a godsend.
 
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RuslinJimmies

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#72
Yo guys I'm a relatively new ivysaur player and I wanna get in on this community. My only accomplishment is taking a game off mango at Whobo. Denti I'm Drinking Food's partner.
Is it just me, or when I realize my opponent isn't about that crouch cancel life, I nair -> uptilt the **** out of them

I think the falcon matchup is terrible. When we as ivy are in our shield we are ****ed. Literally all falcon has to do is nair us and hit the back of our shield and we are kinda ****ed.

I find the match up for marth to be pretty easy if they can't reliably power shield razor leaf. They either give up stage position or their shield gets widdled.
 

EmLeingod

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#73
Does Ivy have any way of dealing with pressure from the spacies or PSI kids? I can combo the hell out of them, but if they hit me first (and they tend to) I get my **** rekt. It's like, I can out space them, but they can get in my face before that and once they're there, I feel like the stock is pretty much over. I've tried crouch canceling into my down smash to get them out of my face, but it comes out way too slow (anyone know how many frames?). What are my options when they start to put on the pressure?
 

TheReflexWonder

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#75
Try using a platform to change up spacing. Jump through and waveland off the platform. Fall through it and B-Air. Fall through, jump, and airdodge. It's the little things that can prevent them from getting there in the first place.

For all it's worth, Dash Attack comes out on Frame 4 and has a lingering hitbox. You can do a Hadouken motion (slide from Down to Forward) to go from a crouch to a dash (for CC stuff), then press the C-Stick downward to get an "instant" Dash Attack.
 

EmLeingod

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#76
I could actually really use some advice for the C.Falc MU, coming back from the ledge is harddddd. Fiar is always punished, and nair really isn't safe when you opponent is on the other side of the stage waiting for you to comeback, and can punish well. I really don't see how this is supposed to be an even match up, lol.
 

TheReflexWonder

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#79
Super Leftrightleft Brothers is powerful.

I wonder how useful hanging out near a platform edge for edge-canceling would help us with keeping him out/away.
 
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#80
I'm interested in peoples opinions on the Metaknight match up.
I played an MK in tournament tonight and got wrecked. After playing some friendlies I figured crouch canceling to be effective, but once in the throws of an aerial string, I was just stuffed.
Any advice?
 
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