Super Effective! Ivysaur match-up thread. [Updated for 3.0+]

Machiavelli.CF

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#1
Hello! This is SoCal's resident Ivysaur player, Machiavelli.
In an effort to better understand Ivysaur's place in Project M, we should aim to come to a general consensus on her match-up spread. Below, I've placed characters into 3 broad categories. I figured we'd start from here and build on it, adding MU ratios/explainations/and more discussion progresses.

If you also are experiencing difficulties with a match-up, this is also the place to ask for the insight of other players.

tl;dr version:

It's super effective!(people who Ivy beats)
:bowser2::dedede::dk2::gw::ganondorf::popo::jigglypuff::olimar::peach::roypm::yoshi2::zelda:
Close to even
:charizard::ike::lucas::luigi2::mario2::metaknight::mewtwopm::ness2::pikachu2::rob::samus2::snake::squirtle::toonlink::wario::wolf::zerosuitsamus:

It's not very effective...(Switch out)
:diddy::falco::falcon::fox::kirby2::link2::lucario::marth::pit::sheik::sonic:



It's super effective!(people who Ivy beats)

:bowser2:Bowser
:dedede:King Dedede

-One of Dedede's most apparent character weaknesses is his unimpressive neutral game. Because of this, the tools that Ivy has here are much more useful. Keeping Dedede out is fairly easy, and this should be put on blast in the match-up. At best, your opponent should have to sift through an unreasonable ocean of defenses. Forehead height razor leafs will gain you a lot of mileage alone. A Dedede will quickly learn to fear vine whip and Ivy players should be keen to learn how this move can be used to restrict their opponent's gameplay. For example, on stages like Battlefield and Dreamland 64, D3 players have a powerful urge to jump from the ledge due to the fact that any aerial they preform will be auto ledge-cancelled. You should be able to snag a few vine whips from this habit. King Dedede also has the gift of arguably the deadliest off-stage game in Project M, so you should be careful, unpredictable, and very safe when making your way back on stage. Be wary of using your dair recklessly, as it is a great move for Dededes to try and strike you out of.

:dk2:DK
:gw:Game & Watch
:ganondorf:Ganon

:popo:Ice Climbers
-Ivysaur seems to have a meaty selection of moves that are good at seperating the ICs. There's a noticeable shortage of IC players in the game right now, so it's hard to say how they fare against most characters, but I'm inclined to think Ivysaur has the necessary tools to put them down.

:jigglypuff:Puff
:olimar:Olimar

:peach:Peach
-While I don't imagine this matchup is too heavily in Ivysaur's favor, I do think that Peach lacks many good responses to an Ivysaur that throws out safe (full hop) fairs and Bairs. For example, Peach's movement can be fairly sluggish and she seems to struggle with moves like fullhop fair. I also feel Peach's signature float game is under-effective against Ivysaur, compared to the rest of the cast. The tricky part about this pairing is that both characters tend to play very safe and like to have good breathing room between eachother, making this a likely slow and campy fight.

:roypm:Roy
:yoshi2:Yoshi
:zelda:Zelda


Close to even

:charizard:Charizard
:ike:Ike

:lucas:Lucas
:luigi2:Luigi

:mario2:Mario
:metaknight:MetaKnight

:mewtwopm:Mewtwo
:ness2:Ness
:pikachu2:Pikachu
:rob:ROB
:samus2:Samus
:snake:Snake

:squirtle:Squirtle
-Many of Ivy's common moves are multi-hits, and they lose a lot of utility against Squirtle. You will have to partition a certain amount of your concentration in the early game to always being pepared for an incoming armored attack. Squirt's armor strength is determined by how far he would have been sent. Your Dair and dash attack can break his shell armor at early percents. Before you know it, a good chunk of damage has been dealt and his armor will be virtually non-existent, and your moves will regain their common roles back. What sets the Squirtle vs Ivy experience apart from other characters is largely Squirtle's mobility. There's an interesting side to side dance in the match-up's movement style you will learn as you acclimate to his lunges and dives.

:toonlink:Toon Link
-I find that most people's initial suspicion is that Toon Link wins because Ivysaur has been known to struggle with "spammy" characters, but I feel Toon Link's projectile game is very managable. If you stay airborne, most of Tink's projectiles will float right under you, and you can easily punish overzealous spammers. Ivysaur's range advantage on Toon Link is what I think makes this matchup not so bad. You should be mindful of your spacing and try to be close enough to Tink that you can hit him, but far enough to where his sword can't reach you. When it comes to offstage and gimping games, Toon Link is solidly equipped to defend himself while recovering (especially when close to the edge) so it seems the best way to go about hunting him offstage is to be brave, leap with a bair, and try to hit him hard while he is using his far-offstage AGT bomb jumps. On the other side of the coin, Toon Links like to edge-guard Ivysaur often by staying close to the stage and pelt Ivysaur with a volley of projectiles. Be careful to avoid things like bombs which will pop you up and lead into a dangerous fair.


:wario:Wario
:wolf:Wolf

:zerosuitsamus:ZSS
It's not very effective...(Switch out)

:diddy:Diddy

:falco:Falco
-Falco is a difficult match-up for Ivy for much the same reasons Fox is. He is thought by most, however, to be a bit easier to handle. The most noticeable things that separate Falco from Fox is his neutral, kill, and recovery game. Fox undoubtedly has an easier time landing finishing blows on Ivysaur, but Ivy also has an easier time finishing off Falco. From my experiences in this match-up, I found that any time I managed to get a razor leaf in play, good things happened for me, be it a moment of peace to better position myself, or a hiccup in Falco's momentum to capitalize on. Make the most out of these openings and opt to end combos early just to get him offstage and collect a free gimp.

:falcon:Falcon

:fox:Fox
-This is a match-up in which both characters have potential to ravage the other. However, as long as fox's execution is on point, he should be at a significant advantage. As an Ivysaur, your chances of beating a Fox hinge mostly on how competent of a combo game you have developed, as you have the potential to 0-death fox off of nearly any hit (and especially grab) you can land. The main strengths that hold Fox over Ivysaur is his potential to pressure and land upward kills on Ivysaur. If you can manage staying safe despite his mobility, you should be able to land enough hits to cheese a victory out of the jaws of adversity .

:kirby2:Kirby
-Solar Beam assumes sunny day is out when Kirby swallows Ivysaur, so DO NOT let it happen. While an Ivysaur may get two solar beams in a match, at best, Kirby can get one every life if he manages to swallow you each time. Besides inhale, Kirby's dash attack has been catching many players off guard in 3.0+ so keep in mind that Ivysaur's dash attack is fast and will beat it out at any time. One particularly frustrating detail of the match-up is that Kirby has a nearly guaranteed up-smash from dthrow at many percents. Its very important that you land a vertical kill early with vine-whip or uair and stay out of Kirby's close range.

:link2:Link
:lucario:Lucario
-In this match-up, it does not seem that the best defense is a good offence. Instead, you should become a fortress and wall him out with titls, bairs, fairs, and whatever else is appropriate. Aura sphere beats out Razor Leaf so, straight off the bat, you should not expect to out-camp him with it. You may have to put a lot of effort into remembering that you can't shield and be safe Lucario. Shielding only delays him with his inevitable grab, so you should try to escape shielding situations as quickly as you can manage. For every lengthy combo you manage, Lucario can sneeze equal damage back at you much quicker.

:marth:Marth
-Your range would be impressive in any other galaxy, but not Marth's. His attacks generally reach just as long but are twice as fast, and sometimes hit twice as hard. This one of Ivy's classic difficult matchups. It's very important to respect his grab range. Keep him at bay by walling the best you can, and take FULL advantage of any opening that comes by. Despite all his sword's benefits, you still have an edge on him when it comes to killing him, as you're more than equipped to sting like a bee offstage. If you are familiar with Marth's recovery game you should be able to secure edge-guards without much trouble. On the other side of the fence, you must be efficient and creative at the ledge to avoid being cornered and stuck, grabbing a ledge while Marth patiently awaits your response.


:pit:Pit
:sheik:Sheik
-This is probably one of Ivysaur's most difficult counters, as she seems to have all the tools necessary to cut away at Ivy's options. Needles are a key part of this match-up and do wonders against Ivysaur. Alone, they are able to out-camp Ivysaur, as it takes only one needle to cancel a razor leaf, and it is not difficult to fire more than one at a time. In all of their uses, needles will force a reaction out of Ivysaur, so be safe in whatever response you take. Ivysaur is very susceptible to Sheik's shield pressure, chain-grabs, and crouch-cancel game, so you should research them and learn methods of escaping each. Sheik is also more than equipped to edge-guard you. Take note of what moves Sheik uses to keep you from returning to stage and attempt to change up your timing with dairs, and your air attack defenses. Another small note to add is that Sheik has the ability to interrupt Ivysaur's up-B recovery with aerial needles. It is unlikely to kill you as long as you recover below a 45 degree angle, so you are shielded by the stage.

:sonic:Sonic
 
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Machiavelli.CF

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#3
Ivy is neutral with Mario. Add Snake to not very effective. Charizard vs Ivy might be even.
I will try to be open largely to others opinions in updating the OP even if I may not personally agree. I've added Snake and Char.

How confident are you about the Ivy Mario MU? I'd like to hear more opinions on it. Mario is very good and I have struggled with him but I'd accept it may be because of a lack of experience.
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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#4
Ivy doesn't lose to Snake, it's even at worst imo

We lose pretty badly to Captain Falcon and Lucario, I think ZSS is even

You should at separate 4x effective and ineffective to differentiate between "we beat them" and "we beat them badly"

Ivysaur Matchups IMO:

Super Effective! (x4) (people who Ivy beats badly)
DK
D3

Super effective! (x2) (people who Ivy beats)
ZSS
Tink
Bowser
Puff
Wario

About Neutral (player experience is main variable)
Ness
Peach
Ike*
Charizard*
Squirtle
Snake
Sheik
Luigi*
Ganondorf
Mr. Game and Watch*
Diddy Kong*
ROB*

Not very effective... (x2) (Consider Switching, hope opponent doesn't know the MU)
Fox
Wolf
Mario
Lucario
Falcon
Pit
Zelda
Link

Not very effective... (x4) (Switch out to have a chance or pray your opponent doesn't know that MU)
Marth
Sonic
Falco
Lucas

* = I haven't played the MU and can't come to a conclusion based on theory alone so I put it as even
 

Machiavelli.CF

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#5
I was originally planning to do that (people Ivy beats/loses to badly), but thought I'd save it until there was more feedback to work off of. I think people overestimate Falcon against Ivy. Marth too, to a lesser extent.
 

Ignignog

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#6
Idk how much I agree with ZSS. I have a friend who plays a mean ZSS, and in many situations she seems to have the upper hand. Basically it's a "you can win if you don't mess up" kind of match. I have no doubt that Ivy can do work in this match up, but ZSS has super good follow-ups, and Ivy's def not the heaviest character.

I will agree to a certain extent with the ledge guarding, but I wouldn't call it free. Ivy basically has two spikes with d-air and u-air, but ZSS's down-b has a lot of utility and lots of mind game potential, not to mention being an essential tool for recovery.

In my opinion, Ivy vs ZSS would either be closer to even, or slightly in ZSS's favor.
 
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Phoenix502
#8
I find it rather difficult to deal with a grab happy Snake for some oddball reason... maybe it's something I'm doing or what, but more often than not I have trouble fighting Snake up close for a kill as Ivysaur. damn soldier just won't freaking die and I'm getting sick of the grenades, and wish the fuse wasn't so short as to throw them back...

I also seem to lose track of the landmines and sometimes Razor Leaf doesn't set it off.

got any tips?
 

TreK

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#12
I find it rather difficult to deal with a grab happy Snake for some oddball reason... maybe it's something I'm doing or what, but more often than not I have trouble fighting Snake up close for a kill as Ivysaur. damn soldier just won't freaking die and I'm getting sick of the grenades, and wish the fuse wasn't so short as to throw them back...

I also seem to lose track of the landmines and sometimes Razor Leaf doesn't set it off.

got any tips?
Tippered fair or bair on the mines works too. I haven't tested dair and uair (when the mine's on a platform), you might want to check that out. You can always run/walk onto it and powershield, eh.
Whenever he pulls a nade out, razor leaf him or something. You want him to get stuck in position. Beware of the way he's facing. He can do a whole lot of **** with a nade, but turning around is not one of them. Adapt your spacing in consequence.
Don't get grabbed until at least 60%, else you'll get a c4 which will lower your life expectancy by a good 50%. Only do safe stuff. You can always do the cool stuff later. Don't get grabbed when there's a mine out there, too.
As for killing him... Yeah, good luck with that, I still haven't figured it out either !


Last tourney I lost to a Pikachu and I really had no clue about what buttons the guy was pressing. I need to stop derping around lol
 

Risky

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#13
It should be pretty difficult for Snake to grab an Ivysaur. Or for anyone to grab her for that matter. You have a lot of control during your aerials, and they have quick startups and are not easy to punish. Just try SH Bair, side-b as you land. Mix it up with SH Bair into jump + Bair then Leaf, or if you're closer you can Nair their shield and land behind them. You can space a dtilt as you land instead of throwing a Leaf, and if they shielded the aerial there's a good chance it will shieldstab them. Ivy has a ton of options try and mess around.

Ivy v Lucas isn't very tough from what I've played of it. Ivy bair clashes with his ice in the air, as does her projectile, so he doesn't have many avenues of approach. Nothing Lucas has can really stop you from walling him out, and it's extremely easy to punish his recoveries depending on the angle he comes in at.

I personally think Ivy is one of the best and hardest to deal with characters in the game. I'm not sure of her hard counters yet or if he has any.

p.s. Ivysaur > Charizard, Pokemon types aside.
 

Viceversa96

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#14
Actually, the entirety of F-Air sends people vertically now.
Do you or anyone else know how to beat Ivy as Mario? I can't seem to beat Ivy since she outranges Mario in every way. I get close every time but Ivy always wins. Trust me it isn't easy to beat my Mario but I just can't seem to win this match up. Especially ones who abuse seed bomb when getting juggled.
 

Sudai

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#15
More fireballs. If you get her off stage, Mario can cover all of Ivy's options pretty well once she actually gets to the ledge. You just stand on the stage just out of ledge hop FAir range and you can punish Ivy's get up options.
 

Fortress

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#16
Do you or anyone else know how to beat Ivy as Mario? I can't seem to beat Ivy since she outranges Mario in every way. I get close every time but Ivy always wins. Trust me it isn't easy to beat my Mario but I just can't seem to win this match up. Especially ones who abuse seed bomb when getting juggled.
Ivy's also one of my poorest matchups with Mario, and I usually end up beating her out with well-placed Nairs when she's trying to recover. Just drop the ledge, Nair, and her tether will probably pull her right into your boot of janitorial justice.

I find that, off the stage, Mario has a more impressive game than Ivy. On-stage it's a tough matchup, since she's just floaty enough to where Mario has a little trouble comboing properly. It's rough, I know. I feel like a good approach that works for me is to shorthop into a Down Special and use the tornado to approach. Sometimes it can beat out ranged options from Ivy, or blast through them and catch her in the spin.

Alternatively.

Wait for solar beam > Cape > Money.
Don't try this.
 

Viceversa96

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#19
I know, I was only joking.

But a plumber can dream. He can dream...
Ok after extended practice I can definitely say that this matchup is 60-40 Mario's favor. On small stages it's 50-50 but Mario can bait a lot of Ivy's **** and punish effectively. Especially if you cape razor leaf. You can get a free grab and really **** Ivy up. Another major factor is that Mario kills faster than Ivy and has better kill setups. A wall of fireballs can hurt Ivy on stages like FD and if you predict Ivy to powershield that's a free grab.
 

Viceversa96

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#20
Ivy doesn't lose to Snake, it's even at worst imo

We lose pretty badly to Captain Falcon and Lucario, I think ZSS is even

You should at separate 4x effective and ineffective to differentiate between "we beat them" and "we beat them badly"

Ivysaur Matchups IMO:

Super Effective! (x4) (people who Ivy beats badly)
DK
D3

Super effective! (x2) (people who Ivy beats)
ZSS
Tink
Bowser
Puff
Wario

About Neutral (player experience is main variable)
Ness
Peach
Ike*
Charizard*
Squirtle
Snake
Sheik
Luigi*
Ganondorf
Mr. Game and Watch*
Diddy Kong*
ROB*

Not very effective... (x2) (Consider Switching, hope opponent doesn't know the MU)
Fox
Wolf
Mario
Lucario
Falcon
Pit
Zelda
Link

Not very effective... (x4) (Switch out to have a chance or pray your opponent doesn't know that MU)
Marth
Sonic
Falco
Lucas

* = I haven't played the MU and can't come to a conclusion based on theory alone so I put it as even
Yeah Mario Ivy is 60-40 Mario's favor and 50-50 on small stages so I think you placed him in the right spot.
 

Viceversa96

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#21
I will try to be open largely to others opinions in updating the OP even if I may not personally agree. I've added Snake and Char.

How confident are you about the Ivy Mario MU? I'd like to hear more opinions on it. Mario is very good and I have struggled with him but I'd accept it may be because of a lack of experience.
LOL TRIPLE POST!

Yeah Mario Ivy is 60-40 Mario's favor and 50-50 on small stages so I think you placed him in the right spot. Ok after extended practice I can definitely say that this matchup is 60-40 Mario's favor. On small stages it's 50-50 but Mario can bait a lot of Ivy's **** and punish effectively. Especially if you cape razor leaf. You can get a free grab and really **** Ivy up. Another major factor is that Mario kills faster than Ivy and has better kill setups. A wall of fireballs can hurt Ivy on stages like FD and if you predict Ivy to powershield that's a free grab. Mario can edgeguard Ivy with cape since cape stuns tether and then F-air to kill. Mario can also drop and bair multiple times and use the up b wall jump to get back. F-smashes transcendent priority punishes Ivy's b air (especially if you stutter step).
 

Roche_CL

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#22
I've only played on one small tournament and I tried to play all matches with Ivy.
Then came a guy who played falco (also played falco from melee, and he's never won against me), and he recked my Ivy :(, couldn't do anything, and the guy wasn't even good.

What char is good against him? from the newcomers? (i don't like playing melee top tiers in PM xd)
 

Premaximum

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#23
Anyone have tips on the Lucario matchup? I'm at my last rope with it, to the point where I'm pretty sure no amount of practice is going to make it winnable. It's either learn something new or pick up a new character specifically for that matchup.
 

Masonomace

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#24
Anyone have tips on the Lucario matchup? I'm at my last rope with it, to the point where I'm pretty sure no amount of practice is going to make it winnable. It's either learn something new or pick up a new character specifically for that matchup.

Every time I go to my friends place I end up facing lucario and for me in the MU I play hazard Ivy with a lot of seed bomb traps and Throw out a Razor leaf in between each Seed bomb setting up the wall. This is good for if he wants to Double Team through your leaf and gets stun spore'd for a Usmash punish but once you get combo'd you're kinda boned...
 

The Derrit

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#26
Between 45%-95% Captain Falcon can downthrow-knee Ivysaur regardless of what DI you use. At around 50-55 it is easy to double-knee ivysaur for a kill.
 

TreK

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#28
A CF is what took me out twice last week end. I need to work on that matchup. Any tips ?

Right now I'm playing it a bit more campily than my usual playstyle, trying to avoid grabs and to always be ready for when he rushes in. But hey. It didn't work, so what do I know. I find myself shielding a bit more than usual, which is stupid because apparently the knee is safe on block (wat). I also shoot a few more razor leaves than usual, at head level so that it catches both a dash and a short hop, but he can falcon kick them on reaction if I'm not careful.
I get most of my kills by setting him up for an edgeguard with bair and finishing him off offstage, because pinpointing him on stage in hard. The things I have to respect the most are his grab and his dair, which both lead to pain. Doesn't feel like I can stop them for some reason.
I CP him to Dreamland so I don't die at 60 to some stupid combo. Then Pokémon Stadium 1 or Lylat if it's bo5 or he has a secondary I do not want to take on dreamland. I ban either Warioware or Yoshi's Story due to the wall he can wj on+close boundaries.

I should have some videos some day next week so you can further help me, but hey, any advice is appreciated.
 
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Sweet™

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#29
Yeah. Ivy/Falcon is a really weird matchup.

Backthrow backair on Falcon kills at 0.
Downthrow knee on Ivy works at literally every percent.

They both have stupid gimmicks on eachother.

EDIT: Why does this have Fox and Falco as "bad" matchups for Ivy?
 
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TreK

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#30
Because there's a neutral game.
jkjk I don't know anything about the spacies matchups, I've got noone who plays them correctly around here.
 

Sweet™

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#31
To anyone who plays Melee here, Ivysaur, in my opinion, is the perfect hybrid of Marth, Sheik, and Puff.

Wavedash back grab is just as good, if not better than Sheik's.
She has the ability to chaingrab and juggle with fairs, upairs, and seed bomb; able to do forward air into downair, all like Marth.
You can catch them DI'ing an upthrow poorly and get an up-b/solarbeam follow up.
Anytime you throw a space animal offstage they are as good as dead because your backair is better than Puff's, and all she needs is one or two good hits of a bair.

Practice your nairs out of shield to deal with certain shield pressures. Fox will dance around you with nair shine, drill shine, and grab. Always expect that.
Falco pressure is easier than Fox's to deal with, imo. His big approaches are dair, nair, and things involving shine, but he's not typically as fast as Fox.

Sources: I play against, and as spacies.
 
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heysuess

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#32
Ivy beats Marth hard on most stages.

I still believe it's in her favor even on a bad CP from Marth.


To anyone who plays Melee here, Ivysaur, in my opinion, is the perfect hybrid of Marth, Sheik, and Puff.

Wavedash back grab is just as good, if not better than Sheik's.
She has the ability to chaingrab and juggle with fairs, upairs, and seed bomb; able to do forward air into downair, all like Marth.
You can catch them DI'ing an upthrow poorly and get an up-b/solarbeam follow up.
Anytime you throw a space animal offstage they are as good as dead because your backair is better than Puff's, and all she needs is one or two good hits of a bair.

Practice your nairs out of shield to deal with certain shield pressures. Fox will dance around you with nair shine, drill shine, and grab. Always expect that.
Falco pressure is easier than Fox's to deal with, imo. His big approaches are dair, nair, and things involving shine, but he's not typically as fast as Fox.

Sources: I play against, and as spacies.


Who do you play against?
 
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kevinw0w

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#34
Yeah. Ivy/Falcon is a really weird matchup.


EDIT: Why does this have Fox and Falco as "bad" matchups for Ivy?
This is my biggest complaint with this list.

I don't have too much experience vs. DK, Bowser, or DDD. But I'd like to have explanations on why they're listed as characters that Ivy beats.
 

The Derrit

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#37
Simple explanations: This list was made back in 2.5 :)
false

it's because they're huge targets that can't avoid ivysaur's hitboxes without doing very unsafe things. more so than any other character ivysaur wins against larger characters. sweet spotting for health is easy, you can use DDD's waddles to heal, razor leaf still royally screws all three because they can't easily jump over it like most of the cast, and getting grabs or razor leaf follow ups is easy because unless they DI really well really consistently it will hit more than once.
 
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FlashingFire

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#39
What are the most important things to do when playing as Snake or Sheik against Ivy?

Also, I'm curious why Ivy supposedly beats Marth. From my experience it's pretty even.
 
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