Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[shocktarts17]

Done.

If you want to be added, remember to tag me.

Spoiler: Adepts

oh lol apparently I'm not there, I guess I skipped a step when I started posting here

True Blue Warrior can I get added?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I've added you.

Spoiler: Adepts

 

[Luigifan18]

I don't care that we got a new Pokemon. What I do care about is that it's not a Gen 7 mascot, has a terrible design that makes it deserve to not be one, and its gameplay is done better by Ganondorf.

Hey, as someone who would rather have gotten Decidueye or Lycanroc, Incineroar is actually pretty freaking fun to play as.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Wow I didn't expect such a casual question to spark such outrage, I guess a lot of Issac fans have more pent up frustration that they generally show.

That said I do want to address Sakurai's comment concerning Piranha Plant and hopefully clear up some of the misconceptions here.

First lets look at exactly what the interview says,
"The Super Smash Bros. series has always spawned much fan speculation for characters that will be included, but with Piranha Plant, you have given players one of the most unpredictable inclusions. How does it feel to be able to still surprise fans even so many years later? Was that one of the intents of the inclusion of this character?
I’m actually not paying too much focus on the surprise element when we introduce a new fighter. The surprise element quickly fades once the announcement has been made.
Rather, I believe it’s important to have a good balance as a game. In the past titles in the series, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B. and Duck Hunt Dog were some of the examples we offered outside of people’s typical expectations. However, if we don’t have these types of fighters, and we only had typical “hero/heroine” type fighters in the lineup, there’s not much difference. It’s probably not very interesting. Correct?
Also, unlike some main characters from some (not widely known) franchises, Piranha Plant is a character everyone knows well. And, I want to make sure to remind everyone that it is a limited-time offer fighter everyone can get for free as an early-purchase bonus."
Okay now I'm going to pull out the important part and highlight the parts I think are important,
"Rather, I believe it’s important to have a good balance as a game. In the past titles in the series, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B. and Duck Hunt Dog were some of the examples we offered outside of people’s typical expectations. However, if we don’t have these types of fighters, and we only had typical “hero/heroine” type fighters in the lineup, there’s not much difference. It’s probably not very interesting. Correct?"

Okay so what does that mean? Well the one thing it 100% does not mean is that he hates the standard hero/heroine and wouldn't include them if it was up to him. All that he is saying here is that he wants a little diversity on the roster. Instead of every character being the same brave heroic type you get a mix of all types.

Lets take a look at this in practice. First take a look at the Fire Emblem representation that people even in this thread like to complain about. What we have with the Fire Emblem cast is a cast of all heroes and main characters from their games, and because of this everyone complains that the Fire Emblem reps are all the same and boring. Next lets look at Pokemon, specifically Incineroar since he is another one people in this thread were complaining about. For Pokemon the starters are often seen as the "main" Pokemon for that generation so when Incineroar gets in as another "main" Pokemon people complain that he is boring and unnecessary. So now lets compare that to the Mario series. Mario has more characters than any other series, and while many people would probably argue rightfully so there is no denying that the Mario reps don't get near the hate that Fire Emblem or Pokemon does. And why is that? Well look at the Mario cast, after Mario and Luigi you also have Peach who is more often a damsel in distress, Bowser and Bowser Jr as villains, and Roselina as a supporting NPC. Its a diverse cast of heroes, villains, and supporting characters. This is exactly what Sakurai is talking about, not that he doesn't want heroes in the game but that he wants to have characters who are unique and bring something new to the table.

So Sakurai isn't trying to add random nobody characters over people's favorites, he is trying to make the roster as diverse as he can. And as much as all of us would like Isaac there is no denying that Piranha Plant is way more unique than he would be.

One thing for sure is, he doesn't have much legroom with Pokémon and FE in terms of adding newcomers. Yes, they're ultimately his decisions, but each latest game/generation still needs to have someone from them to represent them, and they usually just happen to be whoever's the main character(s)/latest promotional Pokémon. Only exception is Pokémon RS, which had the misfortune of suffering from the dev cycle of Brawl (then there's Chrom showing up as an Echo). Neither of the series ever stop growing and, unlike the Mario cast, it doesn't have a static cast to make things easier. As a result, requesting someone like Black Knight, Azura, Grovyle or Deoxys steadily becomes downright impossible, especially since Smash doesn't have any significant fan movements for any particular FE or Pokémon character like someone such as Isaac or Geno does.

That being said, the cast is as diverse as it is otherwise, and we can be thankful for that. For the sake of further comparison, let's elaborate on what I said about Project X Zone earlier. Its predecessor Namco X Capcom had a wild, interesting and wildly diverse cast of characters from both companies, despite a few oddball decisions (using spin-off light gun characters from Resident Evil, for one). You had Klonoa, Tekken, Ghosts 'N Goblins, Dig Dug, Captain Commando, Strider, Mega Man Legends, Legend of Valkyrie, Xenosaga, and many others, even silly one-offs like Wonder Momo and Bravoman!

Then you get to the Project X Zone series and it seemed to actively avoid anyone cartoony, even though it's a collaboration between Bamco, Sega, Capcom, Monolith Soft and Nintendo. Let's look at some of the series featured in PXZ2: Sakura Wars, Devil May Cry, Xenosaga, Mega Man X, Fire Emblem, Tekken and Yakuza. Notice anything? While there are still some lesser-known properties like Space Channel 5, Legend of Valkyrie and even an appearance from Segata Sanshiro, on the whole it's not nearly as interesting, visually. Oh, and wouldn't you know it, FE is the only Nintendo property in all of PXZ.

 

[Quetzal77]

On the topic of FE, the problem there isn't that it's only the heroes, it's that Sakurai usually picks the most boring heroes even when there's a better option.

How about instead of Lucina, we got Lyn; instead of Corrin, we got Azura; and instead of Chrom, we got Celica? Much more interesting set of newcomers.

 

[shocktarts17]

On the topic of FE, the problem there isn't that it's only the heroes, it's that Sakurai usually picks the most boring heroes even when there's a better option.

How about instead of Lucina, we got Lyn; instead of Corrin, we got Azura; and instead of Chrom, we got Celica? Much more interesting set of newcomers.

Lucina over Lyn is because she can be an echo and Lyn can't
Corrin over Azura is one I could give you, but despite what IS says Corrin is clearly the main character over Azura and if they were trying to make that not the case they failed there
Chrom is again an echo, and frankly way more popular than Celica would have been during the planning phase of Smash when SoV wasn't even out yet.

 

[Kalaam]

proxian What are those books ? Guides ? They are thick!

 

[TempestSurge]

Oh boy, didn't mean to open up the huge can of worms lol. But as the person who brought back the reminder of the typical hero quote. Just to be clear, my view of it is a bit different. It made me believe Sakurai himself is the obstacle. Not exactly in the context of what he said. The quote was to justify Pirahna Plants inclusion for Ultimate, I don't take his quote literally of what to expect for future roster picks.

It just goes back to Isaac having the worst timing for Smash or rather just happening to not fit into whatever Sakurai's plan is for the roster of that particular Smash. Not that there wasn't a quote or two by Sakurai that vaguely hinted to why Isaac wasn't chosen (like the characters from a series that have no future are rarely chosen). But this typical hero quote followed by the not widely known franchises fits Isaac to such a T, I'm surprised his name literally isn't in said quote.

I always had the Sakurai shade when it comes to not selecting Isaac, I just don't always voice it. The one in regards to Isaac's series not being active is understandable, but Isaac possibly not being selected simply for being the protagonist of his series among a roster of 70+ that Sakurai now wants to find a good balance of diversity, makes me feel it's possible for Sakurai to continuously have reasons for not selecting Isaac, even as simple as being a typical hero.

 

[shocktarts17]

Oh boy, didn't mean to open up the huge can of worms lol. But as the person who brought back the reminder of the typical hero quote. Just to be clear, my view of it is a bit different. It made me believe Sakurai himself is the obstacle. Not exactly in the context of what he said. The quote was to justify Pirahna Plants inclusion for Ultimate, I don't take his quote literally of what to expect for future roster picks.

It just goes back to Isaac having the worst timing for Smash or rather just happening to not fit into whatever Sakurai's plan is for the roster of that particular Smash. Not that there wasn't a quote or two by Sakurai that vaguely hinted to why Isaac wasn't chosen (like the characters from a series that have no future are rarely chosen). But this typical hero quote followed by the not widely known franchises fits Isaac to such a T, I'm surprised his name literally isn't in said quote.

I always had the Sakurai shade when it comes to not selecting Isaac, I just don't always voice it. The one in regards to Isaac's series not being active is understandable, but Isaac possibly not being selected simply for being the protagonist of his series among a roster of 70+ that Sakurai now wants to find a good balance of diversity, makes me feel it's possible for Sakurai to continuously have reasons for not selecting Isaac, even as simple as being a typical hero.

At no point was Isaac passed over for being a typical hero, that's the problem here.

Look at it this way, instead of saying Piranha Plant got in over other people say he filled the "diversity" slot that Sakurai fills with the more unique fighters.

If Isaac didn't get in it wasn't some conspiracy to keep him out, he just didn't have as much going for him as the people who did get in. And if we're being truly honest with ourselves he really does have very stiff competition in the Ultimate newcomers and probably just doesn't bring as much to the table.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I have a draft written up for the letter I'm sending to Nintendo of America. Hopefully it'll be alright and doesn't sound too awkward.

Also I came across this video of Piano versions of Golden Sun tracks:

Also have you seen this artwork?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I wouldn't put any stock in the "typical hero" thing. One look at the roster proves that it's not an issue, multiple times over. I'd be more worried about relevancy.

 

[proxian]

proxian What are those books ? Guides ? They are thick!

Yep, they're Japanese and English guidebooks for the games (plus the Golden Sun 4-Koma Gag Battle manga).

 

[TempestSurge]

At no point was Isaac passed over for being a typical hero, that's the problem here.

Look at it this way, instead of saying Piranha Plant got in over other people say he filled the "diversity" slot that Sakurai fills with the more unique fighters.

If Isaac didn't get in it wasn't some conspiracy to keep him out, he just didn't have as much going for him as the people who did get in. And if we're being truly honest with ourselves he really does have very stiff competition in the Ultimate newcomers and probably just doesn't bring as much to the table.

No I wouldn't think Isaac would be passed over soley for the typical hero quote. Main thing that will always hold Isaac back would be his series not being active if anything. Sakurai has said things about characters and roster thought processes that make me roll my eyes and feel annoyed that Isaac is never considered (the typical hero quote is just another one of those things).

But at the end of the day if you were to ask me point blank why Isaac is not playable in Smash, then I'd say Golden Sun being a series that doesn't constantly churn out games and is seen as a more niche title will always hold Isaac back first of all, that he may not even get to the point where he's considered as playable but instead sent straight to assist role. Especially in Ultimate's case that boasted a little amount of newcomers from the start, but one can't help to hope.

Of course there's other variables that could change in the future regarding Isaac's playability, but not going to lie, boy do I got my conspiracies and have had them for a while lol. Regardless, I know the campaign to get Golden Sun back is way more productive for discussion.

 

[_Sheik]

At no point was Isaac passed over for being a typical hero, that's the problem here.

Look at it this way, instead of saying Piranha Plant got in over other people say he filled the "diversity" slot that Sakurai fills with the more unique fighters.

If Isaac didn't get in it wasn't some conspiracy to keep him out, he just didn't have as much going for him as the people who did get inAnd if we're being truly honest with ourselves he really does have very stiff competition in the Ultimate newcomers and probably just doesn't bring as much to the table.

...Have you ever played Golden Sun?

 

[shocktarts17]

...Have you ever played Golden Sun?

Yes but I do always appreciate a good gatekeeping attempt.

At his very core Isaac is a human who uses physical weapons and what can easily be described as magic and he comes from a game series that hasn't had a new game in almost a decade and it's last game had a mediocre release at best. Compare that to

• King K. Rool - most likely won the ballot, is a giant crocodile heavyweight who comes from a still active series and is opposite a Smash veteran who hasn't gotten many new fighters
• Ridley - probably did very well in the ballot and has been requested forever, is a giant dragon thing from a series that's still active and opposite a Smash veteran who hasn't gotten many new fighters
• Inkling - the face of a new series that has blown up since it was first release, likely also did very well on the ballot and is a half squid half kid who fights using paint
• Simon - very likely did well on the ballot, comes from a third party Sakurai has good ties to, uses a whip and other tools, series is still somewhat active but has long history with Nintendo
• Isabelle - face of one of the top three most popular game series at Nintendo which doesn't have many options for viable fighters, semi-clone probably means she took slightly less development time
• Inceniroar - rep from the second most popular game series at Nintendo with a unique pro-wrestler moveset

I mean I love Isaac, I would have put Golden Sun as my favorite game of all time for many years there and still consider it one of my favorite series. I've been pushing for Isaac to get in since Brawl. That said I can still be realistic and acknowledge that as he is now he just doesn't bring as much to the table as some of the other options.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

At no point was Isaac passed over for being a typical hero, that's the problem here.

Look at it this way, instead of saying Piranha Plant got in over other people say he filled the "diversity" slot that Sakurai fills with the more unique fighters.

If Isaac didn't get in it wasn't some conspiracy to keep him out, he just didn't have as much going for him as the people who did get in. And if we're being truly honest with ourselves he really does have very stiff competition in the Ultimate newcomers and probably just doesn't bring as much to the table.

On the bright side, the pool is starting to shrink. Unless Nintendo does anything drastic in terms of new IPs, by Smash 6 newcomers from their recent games will most likely generally consist of a Splatoon character or two (if any), some ARMS fighters, a few more Xenoblade characters and maybe the guy from Daemon X Machina and the Fitness Boxing Trainer, so they'll have to expand in other areas. Especially if there's roster cuts before then.

Should the next entry not crop up until the next console, this community will have more than enough time to leave its mark.

 

[shocktarts17]

On the bright side, the pool is starting to shrink. Unless Nintendo does anything drastic in terms of new IPs, by Smash 6 newcomers from their recent games will most likely generally consist of a Splatoon character or two (if any), some ARMS fighters, a few more Xenoblade characters and maybe the guy from Daemon X Machina and the Fitness Boxing Trainer, so they'll have to expand in other areas. Especially if there's roster cuts before then.

Should the next entry not crop up until the next console, this community will have more than enough time to leave its mark.

agreed, while I think Isaac had tough competition for the base game I think as far as first party characters go he's gotta be nearing the top for viable options.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

I feel like Sakurai’s statement hit us the hardest because it felt like a jab at us. Isaac was just about the only one that can be considered a typical hero. Plus he followed that statement up with “Also, unlike some main characters from some (not widely known) franchises, Piranha Plant is a character everyone knows well.”

None of the other highly requested characters fit this mold.

Shadow: very popular Sonic character and a villainous anti hero.

Banjo and Kazooie: hero’s, to be sure, but they’re a very popular nostalgic bird and bear duo. Incredibly unique.

Skull Kid: villain from a popular franchise.

Geno: hero, but one even Sakurai himself likes. Not widely known, and not even the main protagonist of his game, but one people like nonetheless.

Shantae: heroine, but one with a unique flair.

I’m sure he didn’t mean to come off the way he did, but it doesn’t make the prospect feel any better, and it proves that Smash is not the avenue we once thought it was. In order to have Isaac in Smash I think we need a new Golden Sun game and for it to do exceedingly well. Not the other way around.

 

[Organization XIII]

Yes but I do always appreciate a good gatekeeping attempt.

At his very core Isaac is a human who uses physical weapons and what can easily be described as magic and he comes from a game series that hasn't had a new game in almost a decade and it's last game had a mediocre release at best. Compare that to

• King K. Rool - most likely won the ballot, is a giant crocodile heavyweight who comes from a still active series and is opposite a Smash veteran who hasn't gotten many new fighters
• Ridley - probably did very well in the ballot and has been requested forever, is a giant dragon thing from a series that's still active and opposite a Smash veteran who hasn't gotten many new fighters
• Inkling - the face of a new series that has blown up since it was first release, likely also did very well on the ballot and is a half squid half kid who fights using paint
• Simon - very likely did well on the ballot, comes from a third party Sakurai has good ties to, uses a whip and other tools, series is still somewhat active but has long history with Nintendo
• Isabelle - face of one of the top three most popular game series at Nintendo which doesn't have many options for viable fighters, semi-clone probably means she took slightly less development time
• Inceniroar - rep from the second most popular game series at Nintendo with a unique pro-wrestler moveset

I mean I love Isaac, I would have put Golden Sun as my favorite game of all time for many years there and still consider it one of my favorite series. I've been pushing for Isaac to get in since Brawl. That said I can still be realistic and acknowledge that as he is now he just doesn't bring as much to the table as some of the other options.

The only area Isaac doesn't offer anything is just advertising. In terms of moveset he offers just as much and more then most of those choices, in terms of popularity he stands right up there with them. The only thing keeping Isaac out is relevance. Everyone expected the ballot to be used like an election where the top voted would be added but it was more like a suggestion box so the top voted aren't necessarily who joined the roster. It's not that Isaac didn't bring enough it's that he doesn't fit in with the way Sakurai picks characters to join the roster.

 

[shocktarts17]

I feel like Sakurai’s statement hit us the hardest because it felt like a jab at us. Isaac was just about the only one that can be considered a typical hero. Plus he followed that statement up with “Also, unlike some main characters from some (not widely known) franchises, Piranha Plant is a character everyone knows well.”

None of the other highly requested characters fit this mold.

Shadow: very popular Sonic character and a villainous anti hero.

Banjo and Kazooie: hero’s, to be sure, but they’re a very popular nostalgic bird and bear duo. Incredibly unique.

Skull Kid: villain from a popular franchise.

Geno: hero, but one even Sakurai himself likes. Not widely known, and not even the main protagonist of his game, but one people like nonetheless.

Shantae: heroine, but one with a unique flair.

I’m sure he didn’t mean to come off the way he did, but it doesn’t make the prospect feel any better, and it proves that Smash is not the avenue we once thought it was. In order to have Isaac in Smash I think we need a new Golden Sun game and for it to do exceedingly well. Not the other way around.

I see what you mean but I don't think it would apply to Isaac any more than any of the other prospective newcomers. I would say that it feels to me a way to explain Piranha Plant instead of a bar of entry for other characters.

The only area Isaac doesn't offer anything is just advertising. In terms of moveset he offers just as much and more then most of those choices, in terms of popularity he stands right up there with them. The only thing keeping Isaac out is relevance. Everyone expected the ballot to be used like an election where the top voted would be added but it was more like a suggestion box so the top voted aren't necessarily who joined the roster. It's not that Isaac didn't bring enough it's that he doesn't fit in with the way Sakurai picks characters to join the roster.

I don't doubt that Isaac would have a great and unique moveset, but you have to at least admit that he would at a very simplified level seem very similar to Robin so it's not like he's filling some gaping hole there.

He's 100% popular but I really doubt he was as popular as K. Rool or Ridley and while he may have done better than Isabelle or Inceniroar there is no doubt their series are 10x more popular than ours, at best we could have possibly edged out Simon but without seeing the results we won't know for sure if we did or not and Simon probably had several other things going in his favor.

And you say relevance like its barely a factor but it is a fairly important aspect unless you're a odd-ball or retro pick.

I'll admit my use of the phrase "didn't bring enough" may have been a poor choice, its more that he didn't have as much going for him as the others.

 

[Organization XIII]

I don't doubt that Isaac would have a great and unique moveset, but you have to at least admit that he would at a very simplified level seem very similar to Robin so it's not like he's filling some gaping hole there.

He's 100% popular but I really doubt he was as popular as K. Rool or Ridley and while he may have done better than Isabelle or Inceniroar there is no doubt their series are 10x more popular than ours, at best we could have possibly edged out Simon but without seeing the results we won't know for sure if we did or not and Simon probably had several other things going in his favor.

And you say relevance like its barely a factor but it is a fairly important aspect unless you're a odd-ball or retro pick.

I'll admit my use of the phrase "didn't bring enough" may have been a poor choice, its more that he didn't have as much going for him as the others.

Well actually you're very mistaken about that. Yes Robin and Isaac use swords and magic but if having a few similar tools resulted in a similar moveset then we wouldn't have as many sword fighters or brawlers or gunners as we do. Just because something is superficially similar doesn't imply they are actually similar so Isaac would still be a moveset just as unique as anyone else they added. Then moving on to popularity being behind Ridley and K Rool is true but when he's contestantly the next character after then when it came to popularity then he's still extremely popular. And I wasn't implying relevance wasn't a big deal in fact I was saying that popularity alone means little for getting in the roster and that's the reason Isaac isn't in the game. Sakurai hasn't and likely never will decide a roster primarily on popularity and that's why we will always struggle. What I was saying was that claiming it's because he's less unique or less popular isn't why Isaac isn't on the roster.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

This entire discussion is why we need to move forward and the sooner the better. We can contemplate on “what if’s” and “how comes” all we want, but what’s done is done. Isaac didn’t make the cut. Wondering why doesn’t help us at all.

Plus we already know why. Despite Isaac’s popularity, he wasn’t on Sakurai’s or Nintendo’s radar. He’s an irrelevant protagonist from a dormant franchise. That’s the gist of it.

The ballot was a guideline for Nintendo. Not a contest to determine which characters were getting in. Hell, Isaac could have for some magical reason been #1 but I’d bet you they’d still hesitate to put him in the game.

It isn’t that Isaac is too “generic” it’s not that he wouldn’t have a neat moveset. Its not even that he wouldn’t provide something others can. It’s all about the fact that GS isn’t on Nintendo’s radar, or at least wasn’t during Ultimates development.

Also we need to stop seeing PP as it stealing a spot from Isaac. Or any other character for that matter. Isaac never had a spot to begin with.

Sorry if this post comes off as super aggressive. But it hurts to see that many are still hung up on this whole smash thing. I’m the kind of person that would rather look forward rather than back.

 

[shocktarts17]

Well actually you're very mistaken about that. Yes Robin and Isaac use swords and magic but if having a few similar tools resulted in a similar moveset then we wouldn't have as many sword fighters or brawlers or gunners as we do. Just because something is superficially similar doesn't imply they are actually similar so Isaac would still be a moveset just as unique as anyone else they added. Then moving on to popularity being behind Ridley and K Rool is true but when he's contestantly the next character after then when it came to popularity then he's still extremely popular. And I wasn't implying relevance wasn't a big deal in fact I was saying that popularity alone means little for getting in the roster and that's the reason Isaac isn't in the game. Sakurai hasn't and likely never will decide a roster primarily on popularity and that's why we will always struggle. What I was saying was that claiming it's because he's less unique or less popular isn't why Isaac isn't on the roster.

While I still don't think you're quite getting what I was trying to say I don't disagree with what you're saying so I can leave it at that.

 

[Organization XIII]

I don't think anyone has seen PP as stealing Isaac's slot and instead sees it more as a character that shouldn't have joined the roster

While I still don't think you're quite getting what I was trying to say I don't disagree with what you're saying so I can leave it at that.

Well correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that Isaac is unique and popular but he wasn't as popular as K Rool and Ridley and not as unique as what some of the other characters offered so while he does have those qualities he didn't offer enough in either area to be considered right? Which I'm saying is wrong because he has both in spades so he wasn't lesser in those areas it's that other factors are at play and matter more.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

I don't think anyone has seen PP as stealing Isaac's slot and instead sees it more as a character that shouldn't have joined the roster

Maybe it’s just me, but while I had a knee jerk reaction to PPs announcement, I’ve had time to chill. The only reason I even had that reaction in the first place was because I was still reeling from Isaac’s AT. And honestly, I’m ok with Piranha Plant. I think it’s a ridiculous concept, and that’s the reason it works so well for me. I’d rather have PP as a fighter than Inciniroar, for sure.

But you can’t deny that people in many fandoms have said something along the lines of, “Why PP and not (X character).”

That being said, I absolutely believe PP should be an outlier. The one exception to make its inclusion that much more impactful. So no Koopas, Goombas, Waddle Dees (except maybe the bandana variety), or Moblins.

 

[Organization XIII]

Maybe it’s just me, but while I had a knee jerk reaction to PPs announcement, I’ve had time to chill. The only reason I even had that reaction in the first place was because I was still reeling from Isaac’s AT. And honestly, I’m ok with Piranha Plant. I think it’s a ridiculous concept, and that’s the reason it works so well for me. I’d rather have PP as a fighter than Inciniroar, for sure.

But you can’t deny that people in many fandoms have said something along the lines of, “Why PP and not (X character).”

That being said, I absolutely believe PP should be an outlier. The one exception to make its inclusion that much more impactful. So no Koopas, Goombas, Waddle Dees (except maybe the bandana variety), or Moblins.

Yes people do say why PP and not X but that doesn't mean they think it stole a spot but rather that was time that could have spent on something people actually wanted. Which I do agree with. The "only protagonists making a boring roster" was an awful reason. My main thing against PP is yes that time could have been for characters wanted but also he's not the most recognizable enemy in his series, there are characters from that series people have asked to be here for years, as a surprise pick all he offers is shock value unlike Duck Hunt or Wii Fit who also embodied parts of Nintendo people may not have thought of, and he does look fun but any character can be made fun. So I think all in all he was actually a terrible choice and I think most people think along these lines instead of if that he wasn't there that their favorite would be.

 

[FlawedAI]

I'll just say that my opinions on the topic come down to this: Sakurai can use whatever retrospective **** he wants to "justify" certain characters, but it holds no water to me when the characters chosen fly in the face of his statements.

It's this simple: Isaac isn't in Smash for two reasons:
1. Timing. Golden Sun being a GBA franchise means it's less important to Sakurai, and currently lacks the "retro" factor NES/SNES characters have. Additionally, it means we missed the mark for Melee and Brawl, due to the gap between games, then once again between Brawl and Smash 4, because Dark Dawn was on the DS and not the 3DS.
2. Sakurai bias. It's pretty clear to me Sakurai isn't as fond of Golden Sun as he is other RPG franchises like Fire Emblem or Xenoblade, and that's fine. However, it's clouding his judgement: case in point - Shulk over Isaac in Smash 4. Both are equally as unique, but Shulk got the nod because Sakurai enjoyed Xenoblade, despite Golden Sun being a well-established fan favorite series at this point.

I think Piranha Plant is a wacky choice that works really well - in a vacuum. Without other factors, he becomes a "oh haha who could've seen that coming" that he's clearly supposed to be, but because of his reveal right after the massacre of 11/1, he feels like an insult to some fans. Not all, obviously, but many people still aren't sold on him (myself included), and I bet he basically becomes the next Pichu - the meme pick for returning veteran. It's just frustrating to try and figure this stuff out, when Sakurai contradicts himself all the time, and has basically become a wildcard in of himself - he's the variable we have to account for now, not what's "new" or "popular", but what Sakurai enjoyed, the fans be dammed.

 

[SPEN18]

I am not gonna argue much about the FE reps, since I don't see much of a problem with them other than Lyn not being there and Corrin/Chrom being pretty unnecessary.

With Pokémon, there's no reason to include a mon from every single Gen, especially when Gen 7 wasn't especially noteworthy compared to the others (even compared to Gens 3 & 5 which don't have reps). Plus the Pokémon roster was plenty diverse without Incineroar, especially with "Everyone is Here." We have starters and non-starters, FE and NFE mons, a Legendary, and a fairly good mix of typings. Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu coming back was more than enough imo.

With popularity, Isaac probably didn't beat K. Rool on the ballot but he probably did beat Ridley. I don't see how Simon could have beat Isaac; it would have been a real anomaly. From what I recall, Castlevania had very little hype around ballot time compared to a lot of other characters, and this shows in the polls. Verge and the August Direct caused a bit of revisionist history with Castlevania. Almost nobody really talked about Castlevania as a ballot choice or even an especially likely possibility before Verge spoke up. Then in the August Direct, the reveals of K. Rool, Dark Samus, and Chrom convinced people that they were going the "fan route" with the roster and Simon/Richter kind of got thrown into that. Post-Direct, a lot more people were talking about how popular Castlevania was. Not that Castlevania wasn't actually popular pre-Verge, but it wasn't necessarily super popular as a request for Smash and it'd need to have a massive silent majority of votes in its favor to be on the level of characters like K. Rool, Isaac, Banjo, or Waluigi. That silent majority thing is possible, but it's very unlikely based on what we've seen. I don't think it's a matter of "well, Castlevania and Isaac were around the same popularity level but Castlevania had other things going for it." It could be, but that's unlikely. It's more likely that Sakurai was looking for a third party, liked Castlevania, and saw Castlevania maybe thirty to forty spots down the ballot. Most of what I'm saying here is that Castlevania would probably be in without a single ballot vote.

With PP, I don't view it as the reason that Isaac specifically didn't get in the game, but I really just disagree with that choice. A Goomba is more recognizable than PP, and probably could be just as unique don't give this idea to Sakurai. The problem with PP as a surprise character is that once the surprise wears off, there has to be something else to justify the choice. When people first find out about G&W, the reaction is like "who is that?" but then people look up G&W and see what made him notable. With Wii Fit, there's huge sales and a representation of Nintendo's dip into the casual market during the Wii era. You can talk about recognizability all you want, but at the end of the day, PP's just a generic enemy. PP also shows why just uniqueness on its own means little for inclusion in Smash. Almost any character can be made unique enough to be in Smash, and even if they can't then they could still be made into a clone with less dev time. There's gotta be some other significance to the character to put it onto the roster. And without PP, I don't think people would say anything about the diversity of the roster anyway, especially with G&W, R.O.B., Wii Fit, and Duck Hunt all being there.

The hero/heroine thing felt like it was directed at Isaac but idk if Sakurai had him in mind when he was saying that. Either way, that statement and the whole Incineroar/PP fiasco made me way less confident that Sakurai could pick good characters.

 

[shocktarts17]

I don't think anyone has seen PP as stealing Isaac's slot and instead sees it more as a character that shouldn't have joined the roster

Well correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that Isaac is unique and popular but he wasn't as popular as K Rool and Ridley and not as unique as what some of the other characters offered so while he does have those qualities he didn't offer enough in either area to be considered right? Which I'm saying is wrong because he has both in spades so he wasn't lesser in those areas it's that other factors are at play and matter more.

okay yeah that's pretty much it, I mean again I don't think he isn't unique or has great moveset potential its just he isn't a giant crocodile or dragon. But we can agree to disagree there.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I mean, Sakurai has only so much time in the world to play games, do we even know if he got to play GS, let alone do any progress in it?

One thing for sure is though, now that the big reptiles are in, this leaves a huge vacuum of power in fan demand, and people will try to fill it up with those that have any significant movement. With the focus on every veteran coming back, there simply wasn't going to be much room for balancing big demands and recent characters this time, which is a fine line to start with. The battle's lost, but this in no way losing the war. The real concern for now is having to deal with the fanbases of other series, active or otherwise.

Also, it felt like the year Nintendo decided that even armless enemies can get to play and didn't want some of their Mario-related projects to use the same one, between this, Super Mario Party and Mario Tennis Aces.

 

[ZelDan]

I mean, Sakurai has only so much time in the world to play games, do we even know if he got to play GS, let alone do any progress in it?

One thing for sure is though, now that the big reptiles are in, this leaves a huge vacuum of power in fan demand, and people will try to fill it up with those that have any significant movement. With the focus on every veteran coming back, there simply wasn't going to be much room for balancing big demands and recent characters this time, which is a fine line to start with. The battle's lost, but this in no way losing the war. The real concern for now is having to deal with the fanbases of other series, active or otherwise.

Also, it felt like the year Nintendo decided that even armless enemies can get to play and didn't want some of their Mario-related projects to use the same one, between this, Super Mario Party and Mario Tennis Aces.

Sakurai or someone must be familiar with Golden Sun to some extent, since Isaac uses multiple psynergy with his assist trophy (move, pound lift), and he also uses teleport psynergy, which IIRC was only in Lost Age and Dark Dawn.

EDIT: I like how I said "only" in TLA and DD when that covers 2/3 of the GS series >_>

 

[TempestSurge]

I mean, Sakurai has only so much time in the world to play games, do we even know if he got to play GS, let alone do any progress in it?

One thing for sure is though, now that the big reptiles are in, this leaves a huge vacuum of power in fan demand, and people will try to fill it up with those that have any significant movement. With the focus on every veteran coming back, there simply wasn't going to be much room for balancing big demands and recent characters this time, which is a fine line to start with. The battle's lost, but this in no way losing the war. The real concern for now is having to deal with the fanbases of other series, active or otherwise.

Also, it felt like the year Nintendo decided that even armless enemies can get to play and didn't want some of their Mario-related projects to use the same one, between this, Super Mario Party and Mario Tennis Aces.

He likely has played through Golden Sun some to get his moves for the assist for Brawl's release. As far as playing Golden Sun during it's launch period as a new series? I'd sooner think with the free time he had for gaming, it was dedicated to playing his ongoing favorite, Fire Emblem. He's stated in an interview that he plays every Fire Emblem game that releases (though he doesn't necessarily get to play thm all to completition). Roy's game launched like a year after Isaac's which he of course played. I think if Sakurai did play Golden Sun, he likely didn't finish (and thus not play the other two games that came out after).

I think when Golden Sun blew up in popularity (and it being more relevant in that time) was probs when Sakurai looked into Golden Sun for first time (well if he played it before, then change the wording of first time to gone back to) to see what move he could make Isaac use as an assist.

Though it seems like Nintendo wasn't really aware of how popular Isaac was until the outpour from Isaac's deconfirmation and with big requests King K Rool and Ridley finally in, that does seem to put Isaac in a much better position for potential newcomer in the future at least.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

He likely has played through Golden Sun some to get his moves for the assist for Brawl's release. As far as playing Golden Sun during it's launch period as a new series? I'd sooner think with the free time he had for gaming, it was dedicated to playing his ongoing favorite, Fire Emblem. He's stated in an interview that he plays every Fire Emblem game that releases (though he doesn't necessarily get to play thm all to completition). Roy's game launched like a year after Isaac's which he of course played. I think if Sakurai did play Golden Sun, he likely didn't finish (and thus not play the other two games that came out after).

I think when Golden Sun blew up in popularity (and it being more relevant in that time) was probs when Sakurai looked into Golden Sun for first time (well if he played it before, then change the wording of first time to gone back to) to see what move he could make Isaac use as an assist.

Though it seems like Nintendo wasn't really aware of how popular Isaac was until the outpour from Isaac's deconfirmation and with big requests King K Rool and Ridley finally in, that does seem to put Isaac in a much better position for potential newcomer in the future at least.

This is the one take away from this whole scenario. Im positive Nintendo is well aware of us after that. Whether or not it matters, I guess we’ll find out eventually.

 

[Organization XIII]

Saying Nintendo didn't know he was popular would only be possible if he didn't do well on the ballot which if he didn't Isaac likely wouldn't have returned as an AT or gotten a Mii costume. He likely would have gotten just the costume like Saki, Chibi, or Ray. It's far more likely his popularity is known but due to being in a dormant franchise other characters got on the roster and Isaac was included in an alternate manner to appease fans ie the Ridley boss or K Rool Mii costume in 4.

 

[FlintIke]

@FE Topic
I agree that the choices for the FE Roster are rly poor. I was an huge FE Fan starting from FE4-10, after those I played Awakening (which was actually ok at that point since the Marth Remakes besides FE12 were terrible) and the beloved Fates (no it's not... nobody likes that horrible game lol)

So I am kinda sad that our FE roster is full of clones and swordfighter that weren't made unique for the most part :/ If I had to pick a FE Roster, it would look like this:
1. Sigurd (Yeah I am choosing him since he was planned for 64 instead of Marth but yeah if you rly want you can put Marth here, but I definitely like Sigurd a lot more than Marth. Also cavalier lord would be hilarious.)
2. Hector (Come on give us at least 1 Axefighter...)
3. Lyn (If you have to pick a popular female character for FE then go with the one the majority of both fanbases seem to like, me included. Katana-Warp Fightstyle is <3)
4. Ike (most popular and badass lord in the franchise imo and still my favorite video game character)
5. Black Knight (If you have to pick a villain for FE, it has to be BK. He could be based a lot on super armor with Alondite Projectile and his slower yet powerful sword swings from PoR and RD)
6. Robin +6 more Mage Skins (3 Male and 3 Female). What I mean by this, is that they should have just done the same for Robin like they did with Bowser Jr and the Koopalings. Robin could have skins of mages from all over the franchise to please more people of the fanbase. If I had to pick 6 I would go with Soren, Erk, Levin, Lute, Micaiah, Celica. I know not all of them can use Swords or certain tomes but who cares. Smash isn't all about logic
7. Lucina (I personally don't like her, but I know that especially FE newcomers love her so I would be fine with it)
8. Ephraim (OG Lance Lord and one of my favorites besides Ike, Hector, Lyn and Sigurd)

I wouldn't add a Fates character honestly but it would be the 8th one if I had to, but I think that FE Roster would pls many FE fans.

@GS question Isaac 4 Smash or new GS Game

I am gonna be honest here, the gap between those 2 is soooooooo slim that I want them equally. But I am a little bit more into Isaac for smash. I still think it's just not fair that our golden boy doesn't have a single entry in the roster at this point, since GS was very popular overall and can be counted as retro at this point.
If we would only get Isaac in the roster without anything else I would be more than happy, since I never wanted anyone so bad besides Ike and Isaac.
And most important, I just think all of you guys deserve him as well in the roster. Seeing such a passionate fanbase just warms ones heart and makes you want to even try harder to make his inclusion happen.

But I definitely wouldn't say no to a new GS Game since it's been such a long time...
I rly hope there will be something among those lines for the future, even if it's a remake. I would love anything regarding GS <3

 

[SonicLink125]

Saying Nintendo didn't know he was popular would only be possible if he didn't do well on the ballot which if he didn't Isaac likely wouldn't have returned as an AT or gotten a Mii costume. He likely would have gotten just the costume like Saki, Chibi, or Ray. It's far more likely his popularity is known but due to being in a dormant franchise other characters got on the roster and Isaac was included in an alternate manner to appease fans ie the Ridley boss or K Rool Mii costume in 4.

I would go as far to say that we might have had only 3 GS spirits and the 2 songs from Smash 4 honestly had Isaac not did well in the ballot. The amount of GS content we did get in Ultimate still surprises me to this day. Because of it, I am convinced that Isaac DID do well in the ballot, but as someone said earlier, the ballot was more of a suggestion box than anything. Also, the way it looks, I think NoA and/or NoE have never seen the ballot results. Only Sakurai, his team and maybe higher ups in NoJ.

Not to mention that Isaac is the only AT to be completely revamped and (besides Gray Fox for obvious reasons) to be the only cut AT to return. We even get a Mii Costume, 8 GS Spirits (which is way more than I expected), 2 returning songs from Smash 4, and Adult Isaac Spirit is considered one of the best Spirits in the game. Plus, GS is the most non-fighter rep IP represented (if I remember correctly). We are only missing a Fighter, a Stage, and New Music. Hmm?

It may not be the exact bone that we wanted thrown at us, but it’s definitely much better than the treatment we got in Smash 4. Which is why I’m taking full advantage of it to keep Golden Sun relevant again. It’s the least I can do for now. Like this for example today:
https://mobile.twitter.com/SonicLink125/status/1085637779357224960

It still hurts that Isaac isn’t playable, but I’m so glad to have this much GS content already to use. And maybe more will come? If no fighter, then at least some more spirits and even more Mii Costumes like Felix, Matthew, Adult Isaac, Sveta, etc.?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, the supposed datamine was fake, so it's a non-issue, but I don't think it's entirely out of the question, with Camelot's increased references to Golden Sun, including in MTA. Not to mention that was a *touch* aggressive, but we're used to disappointment around here.

I’ve been a Isaac supporter since before Brawl. I know the disappointment.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

In other news, I’m getting closer to being able to build a website for us. It would be a platform Golden Sun fans can go to to build a community. Which I think is important especially if we’re to keep going with these talks of fan events.

It would essentially be a Golden Sun gaming community site.

If I can get this set up I would absolutely need partners. But that’s a discussion for another time.

 

[jweb23]

Man that was a lot of catching up to do. Honestly I have to agree with a lot of what’s been said, especially about Sakurai’s “justifications.”

Anyways, the sad truth we have to accept is that Smash took a drastic turn at Smash 4. We saw a small piece of this turn back in Melee with Roy’s inclusion but now it’s pretty close to 90% of how the roster is chosen. Smash has simply become promotional material! Just look back at how they announced characters back during Smash 4, and not just newcomers but also veterans. Almost everyone was announced around the release of a new game for their respected series. Now that we know Ultimate’s development was during the dlc well...Bayonetta is basically a Nintendo IP now. A remastered version of Street Fighter 2 came to the Switch and guess what...all of Ryu and Ken’s moves except for down B are taken from Street Fighter 2! This year we have all those Final Fantasy ports coming to the Switch. And I’ll be shocked if Persona 5 isn’t announced in the next direct. The only thing I find weird is no Castlevania announcement but maybe Simon was a package deal to get Snake back.

Unfortunately for our boy to be playable in the future we have to get a new game!!! Even if it’s just a remake it has to happen because aside from that we either have to hope for a Wave 2 dlc and believe we were loud enough or wait for so many years to pass that Isaac is finally considered Retro...smh

 

[SPEN18]

@FE Topic
I agree that the choices for the FE Roster are rly poor. I was an huge FE Fan starting from FE4-10, after those I played Awakening (which was actually ok at that point since the Marth Remakes besides FE12 were terrible) and the beloved Fates (no it's not... nobody likes that horrible game lol)

So I am kinda sad that our FE roster is full of clones and swordfighter that weren't made unique for the most part :/ If I had to pick a FE Roster, it would look like this:
1. Sigurd (Yeah I am choosing him since he was planned for 64 instead of Marth but yeah if you rly want you can put Marth here, but I definitely like Sigurd a lot more than Marth. Also cavalier lord would be hilarious.)
2. Hector (Come on give us at least 1 Axefighter...)
3. Lyn (If you have to pick a popular female character for FE then go with the one the majority of both fanbases seem to like, me included. Katana-Warp Fightstyle is <3)
4. Ike (most popular and badass lord in the franchise imo and still my favorite video game character)
5. Black Knight (If you have to pick a villain for FE, it has to be BK. He could be based a lot on super armor with Alondite Projectile and his slower yet powerful sword swings from PoR and RD)
6. Robin +6 more Mage Skins (3 Male and 3 Female). What I mean by this, is that they should have just done the same for Robin like they did with Bowser Jr and the Koopalings. Robin could have skins of mages from all over the franchise to please more people of the fanbase. If I had to pick 6 I would go with Soren, Erk, Levin, Lute, Micaiah, Celica. I know not all of them can use Swords or certain tomes but who cares. Smash isn't all about logic
7. Lucina (I personally don't like her, but I know that especially FE newcomers love her so I would be fine with it)
8. Ephraim (OG Lance Lord and one of my favorites besides Ike, Hector, Lyn and Sigurd)

I wouldn't add a Fates character honestly but it would be the 8th one if I had to, but I think that FE Roster would pls many FE fans.

@GS question Isaac 4 Smash or new GS Game

I am gonna be honest here, the gap between those 2 is soooooooo slim that I want them equally. But I am a little bit more into Isaac for smash. I still think it's just not fair that our golden boy doesn't have a single entry in the roster at this point, since GS was very popular overall and can be counted as retro at this point.
If we would only get Isaac in the roster without anything else I would be more than happy, since I never wanted anyone so bad besides Ike and Isaac.
And most important, I just think all of you guys deserve him as well in the roster. Seeing such a passionate fanbase just warms ones heart and makes you want to even try harder to make his inclusion happen.

But I definitely wouldn't say no to a new GS Game since it's been such a long time...
I rly hope there will be something among those lines for the future, even if it's a remake. I would love anything regarding GS <3

Sorry, but Marth has gotta be there. He's appeared in the most FE games and is the OG protagonist. He's also easily the best representative of FE protagonists as a whole, since most of them are on-foot sword wielders and Marth fits the bill for the archetypical lordling personality and backstory. I'd also argue that he's the de facto face of the franchise; there's a reason that Marth was tied into Awakening more than any other "legacy" FE character. Also, Sakurai said he wanted to add Marth as a second sword character in Smash 64, not Sigurd. I like Sigurd and think he would be a good choice, but he would have to be in addition to and not instead of Marth. I'll even go a step further and say that Marth's moveset is the single best representative for the Fire Emblem series as a whole that I can imagine. The whole theme of Marth's moveset is spacing, which is incredibly important to Fire Emblem, a tactical role-playing series where you need to position your units in just the right places to take advantage of the enemy. It's actually pretty amazing how Sakurai was able to translate the feel of a strategy-focused game into a platform fighter. I suppose that another FE on-foot sword user could hypothetically use this type of moveset, but there are few at best that make sense for this kind of play as much as Marth (it'd be weird for Ike to do it, for example), and certainly none with more credentials than him in terms of legacy and importance to the series. If we only got one FE character, it'd be Marth, hands down. The only points against him are lack of recency and not being the absolute highest in popularity, though only a few FE characters are going to have recency on their side at any one time and Marth certainly isn't a slouch in popularity. His current popularity also speaks to his great legacy within the series.

Source for Marth being planned in 64: https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/12/13/sakurai-fe25/
According to Sakurai, it seems like Marth would have been in Smash 64 had there been more time and/or resources.

"The Marth Remakes besides FE12 were terrible." So just Shadow Dragon? That was the only "Marth Remake" other than FE12. I guess FE3 technically includes a remake, but it also includes a whole new story afterwards.

With Hector, I'm down for a FE7 rep, but I think it ought to be Lyn. I also don't think that just being an axe user is enough; for me, Ike is essentially what would be our "axe wielder," as he plays fairly similarly to how I'd imagine Hector, minus potential thunder effects (which I don't think would be super prominent in Hector's moveset). Lyn is my number one pick for a FE character that isn't already in the game. She's absurdly popular, only really outranked by Ike. Also, FE7 is an awesome game and could use representation. Yes, she's a sword user, but I don't care about that. Give her a bow for a special move, some throws (like how Fox uses his blaster for throws), and maybe a couple of aerials (like Villager's slingshot) if you really care about new weapon types.

As I already tangentially covered, Ike is there primarily because he's ridiculously popular in both the FE fanbase and the Smash fanbase. Besides that, he's also a really good contrast to Marth in terms of gameplay, personality, and story. If you really and truly care about new weapons, then you could insert the Urvan into Ike's moveset for a few moves, but such a change would have little impact.

With Black Knight, I don't view a villain as an obligatory thing for each franchise. BK probably is the most iconic FE villain, but there are other FE characters that are not villains who are still more iconic than him. Plus you could sort of count Robin as a villain if you changed his Final Smash. I have a lot of good things to say about the Tellius games, but I don't think we absolutely need another rep from them, though I wouldn't have a problem if we did (I'm trying not to let my bias come into play too much here). While I think BK could be unique and interesting, I don't feel like he has enough else to warrant giving him a high priority. I was alright with an AT for BK.

Robin with alts is an interesting idea but I don't know if you could represent everybody properly like that. That one leak had Soren based on Robin and we *almost* bought it (lol how this fake text leak keeps coming up), and a lot of these characters use Staves upon promotion, but this would be admittedly hard to do well. For example, Soren and Lewyn are focused specifically around wind, while Micaiah would want a Sacrifice mechanic to fully represent her and Celica would want a self-damaging mechanic. In retrospect Robin was a pretty good choice for the Awakening rep, and he's nowhere close to the same as the other sword users.

Lucina's an easy Echo; she's also very popular and plays an important role in a game that was huge for the series as a whole. I like her being there more than Chrom.

I'd really like to be able to argue more in favor of Ephraim, as Sacred Stones was a really enjoyable experience and Ephraim is an awesome character in a lot of ways, but I'm not inclined to include him just because he has a lance. And I'm not sure that Sacred Stones was an important enough game to warrant a full PC. Don't misinterpret me; Sacred Stones is among the FE games I've played for a lot of hours, but I'm trying to be mostly unbiased here. I wouldn't be disappointed with Ephraim, though; he's a real cool dude.

Roy is an odd duck. He's really popular but a lot of that is just because he's been in Smash. He's another GBA rep and one clone is fine, so I think that's enough to keep him. The flame effects don't hurt him either, though I did kind of dismiss Hector's potential thunder effects so I won't really argue using this.

Chrom and Corrin I'm alright with giving the boot. Awakening was an important game for FE but Robin and Lucina is probably enough for it. I also did not really care much for Fates, but it was also a heavily pushed and successful game, so Corrin gets points for that as well as for being a transformation character, which is different. So I can see why they'd keep Corrin, but I'm also fine if they just use Robin/Lucina as the reps for the "3DS era" and skipped Fates. I'd also be open to Azura as a compromise with the "we need a lance user" fans and marketers; likewise, I'd be open to Tiki as another transformation character who helps to tie new and old FE together. You could also use someone like Sigurd in this spot as a legacy character who brings something interesting, namely his horse (assuming he'd be feasible).

TLDR:

If I picked the FE roster, it would likely be (in order of priority, Marth the first pick):
Marth
Ike
Robin
Lyn
Roy
Sigurd/Azura/Corrin/Tiki/Ephraim/Hector/Black Knight

Lucina (listed separately since she's an Echo)

The last slot with the slashes is admittedly an extremely difficult call. I tried to put them somewhat in order but some of them are pretty close. The top four are no-brainers for me, and I think Roy is alright if he's the only non-Echo clone. Leif, who was originally planned to be the Melee Marth clone, could also be used in place of Roy but there's really not much point in doing that unless you really want someone from Jugdral and you either don't deem Sigurd's mount to be feasible or want Azura/Corrin for Fates representation. If you could somehow find a way to make Micaiah or Celica work as a Robin clone then they could also replace Roy, but I don't view that as being especially easy to do.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

It's a combination of factors really, I don't think Golden Sun being dormant put him off the table more like it made him lower priority compared to other characters especially since they had limited newcomers for the base game, half of the newcomers are pretty much clones. Also they might've thought that fans would be disappointed if his presence in the game was limited so they brought his AT back with new moves that weren't present in his Brawl AT role as compensation. Also what gives me hope for the future is the fact that Isaac got the most love in Ultimate out of all the snubbed fan favorites (revamped AT, his franchise having eight spirits which is the second most amount of spirits a non playable series has after Rhythm Heaven and Isaac himself being upgrade-able to a legend, the Mii costume) I feel like if they had more time to include more characters he'd be one of the most likely candidates that would've made it. It's up to us to make sure the demand for Isaac in Smash and Golden Sun's return doesn't die down