Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[GoodGrief741]

Yes but I do always appreciate a good gatekeeping attempt.

At his very core Isaac is a human who uses physical weapons and what can easily be described as magic and he comes from a game series that hasn't had a new game in almost a decade and it's last game had a mediocre release at best. Compare that to

• King K. Rool - most likely won the ballot, is a giant crocodile heavyweight who comes from a still active series and is opposite a Smash veteran who hasn't gotten many new fighters
• Ridley - probably did very well in the ballot and has been requested forever, is a giant dragon thing from a series that's still active and opposite a Smash veteran who hasn't gotten many new fighters
• Inkling - the face of a new series that has blown up since it was first release, likely also did very well on the ballot and is a half squid half kid who fights using paint
• Simon - very likely did well on the ballot, comes from a third party Sakurai has good ties to, uses a whip and other tools, series is still somewhat active but has long history with Nintendo
• Isabelle - face of one of the top three most popular game series at Nintendo which doesn't have many options for viable fighters, semi-clone probably means she took slightly less development time
• Inceniroar - rep from the second most popular game series at Nintendo with a unique pro-wrestler moveset

I mean I love Isaac, I would have put Golden Sun as my favorite game of all time for many years there and still consider it one of my favorite series. I've been pushing for Isaac to get in since Brawl. That said I can still be realistic and acknowledge that as he is now he just doesn't bring as much to the table as some of the other options.

I think unique geomancer psychic that has been requested forever and probably did great on the ballot are credentials just as good as, or even better than, those of characters there.

Maybe it’s just me, but while I had a knee jerk reaction to PPs announcement, I’ve had time to chill. The only reason I even had that reaction in the first place was because I was still reeling from Isaac’s AT. And honestly, I’m ok with Piranha Plant. I think it’s a ridiculous concept, and that’s the reason it works so well for me. I’d rather have PP as a fighter than Inciniroar, for sure.

But you can’t deny that people in many fandoms have said something along the lines of, “Why PP and not (X character).”

That being said, I absolutely believe PP should be an outlier. The one exception to make its inclusion that much more impactful. So no Koopas, Goombas, Waddle Dees (except maybe the bandana variety), or Moblins.

I agree that Plant should be an outlier. In that it should lie out of Smash.

 

[SonicLink125]

I’m sorry if this is random, but I always wonder to myself how many Avatar: TLA fans would support Isaac if they knew he was basically an Earthbender like Toph and many other Earthbenders. Isaac, in a sense, would be the closest thing to having an Avatar-like character in Smash. So much opportunity there, eh? lol

Btw, I just now realized that The Lost Age and The Last Airbender both have the same abbreviation: TLA. Nice!

 

[jweb23]

TLDR:

If I picked the FE roster, it would likely be (in order of priority, Marth the first pick):
Marth
Ike
Robin
Lyn
Roy
Sigurd/Azura/Corrin/Tiki/Ephraim/Hector/Black Knight

Lucina (listed separately since she's an Echo)

The last slot with the slashes is admittedly an extremely difficult call. I tried to put them somewhat in order but some of them are pretty close. The top four are no-brainers for me, and I think Roy is alright if he's the only non-Echo clone. Leif, who was originally planned to be the Melee Marth clone, could also be used in place of Roy but there's really not much point in doing that unless you really want someone from Jugdral and you either don't deem Sigurd's mount to be feasible or want Azura/Corrin for Fates representation. If you could somehow find a way to make Micaiah or Celica work as a Robin clone then they could also replace Roy, but I don't view that as being especially easy to do.

I’ve personally had my own idea of what I would do if I was picking the Fire Emblem characters for Smash however I feel like my idea would be a programming nightmare lol.

Anyways my idea was to keep the OG and the most popular character while making fighter class characters where the alts were different fan favorites instead of colors:

Marth (he’s the OG)
Ike
A swordfighter class (Lyn, Alm, Leif, Eirika, Roy, Ayra, Lucina, etc)
A lancefighter class (Ephriam, Azura, Nephenee, etc)
A heavyweight armored axe fighter class (Hector, etc)
A mage class (Robin, Celica, Micaiah, etc)
A manakete class (child Tiki, Myrrh, Fae, etc)

Maybe keep Lucina as an echo. You could probably add Zelgius as an echo for Ike if you wanted too.

 

[T-Donor66]

I’m sorry if this is random, but I always wonder to myself how many Avatar: TLA fans would support Isaac if they knew he was basically an Earthbender like Toph and many other Earthbenders. Isaac, in a sense, would be the closest thing to having an Avatar-like character in Smash. So much opportunity there, eh? lol

Btw, I just now realized that The Lost Age and The Last Airbender both have the same abbreviation: TLA. Nice!

Hey man, im not a regular in this thread nor do i know much about Isaac, but I actually did not know that! I honestly thought most of his moveset would involve a giant yellow hand haha. Had no clue that he had Earth powers.

But yeah, I would love an “Earth bender” in Smash, so count me in! You guys should definitely emphasize what makes Isaac unique to outsiders more often. Its super easy to just see him as “blonde anime swordfighter” if you aren’t familiar with Golden Sun at all (like me until an hour ago). It would help bring in even more support I believe.

 

[FlawedAI]

In other news, I’m getting closer to being able to build a website for us. It would be a platform Golden Sun fans can go to to build a community. Which I think is important especially if we’re to keep going with these talks of fan events.

It would essentially be a Golden Sun gaming community site.

If I can get this set up I would absolutely need partners. But that’s a discussion for another time.

If you need partners, I'm all in on this. I don't have a ton of money to spare (especially before April), but I'll try and give whatever I can. I think one thing this movement desperately needs is a central location, so this is something super important we should all be putting time and effort into.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

If you need partners, I'm all in on this. I don't have a ton of money to spare (especially before April), but I'll try and give whatever I can. I think one thing this movement desperately needs is a central location, so this is something super important we should all be putting time and effort into.

I can handle the expenses, unless we go for the premium set up which is meant for massive communities, I doubt we’ll need that. I mean more for building the site and fostering the community.

 

[SPEN18]

I’ve personally had my own idea of what I would do if I was picking the Fire Emblem characters for Smash however I feel like my idea would be a programming nightmare lol.

Anyways my idea was to keep the OG and the most popular character while making fighter class characters where the alts were different fan favorites instead of colors:

Marth (he’s the OG)
Ike
A swordfighter class (Lyn, Alm, Leif, Eirika, Roy, Ayra, Lucina, etc)
A lancefighter class (Ephriam, Azura, Nephenee, etc)
A heavyweight armored axe fighter class (Hector, etc)
A mage class (Robin, Celica, Micaiah, etc)
A manakete class (child Tiki, Myrrh, Fae, etc)

Maybe keep Lucina as an echo. You could probably add Zelgius as an echo for Ike if you wanted too.

Yeah it probably would be a programming nightmare, but in a more ideal situation, something like this has some potential. The main problem is that, contrary to what a lot of Smash fans would say, every FE character is very different. You'd end up partially representing a lot of characters but not fully representing very many of them. Plus there's a lot of characters that I personally really enjoy but just can't see a way to justify in terms of iconicness, importance, and/or popularity. I don't view Zelgius as being feasible as an Ike Echo, but you're free to disagree with that.

People may not like this but I do think ATs and Mii Costumes are an alright way to incorporate some of the modestly popular and decently important FE characters that just don't quite have enough credentials to make it as a PC. Note that I said "some," as there are a few like Lyn who I deem worthy of full PC status and would not want to be AT'd or Costume'd in future Smash games. In fact, what you described actually sounds very similar to Mii Costumes, just without the oversized heads.

 

[FlawedAI]

I can handle the expenses, unless we go for the premium set up which is meant for massive communities, I doubt we’ll need that. I mean more for building the site and fostering the community.

Perfect, then! I'm still all in on helping with the site, as a mod or using my Twitter to spread the word (though mine isn't the biggest). I'm just super excited for this forum, since it's probably a big leap for us as a community and a movement.

 

[Undella2]

Hey man, im not a regular in this thread nor do i know much about Isaac, but I actually did not know that! I honestly thought most of his moveset would involve a giant yellow hand haha. Had no clue that he had Earth powers.

But yeah, I would love an “Earth bender” in Smash, so count me in! You guys should definitely emphasize what makes Isaac unique to outsiders more often. Its super easy to just see him as “blonde anime swordfighter” if you aren’t familiar with Golden Sun at all (like me until an hour ago). It would help bring in even more support I believe.

He can also use Mars (Fire), Jupiter (Wind), and Mercury (Water) psynergy alongside his standard Venus (Earth) psynergy, but that requires giving him different djinn and whatnot.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

Right, so I’m just gonna plop this here.

OK! So, low key, I’ve been looking into something very important. Creating a home for Golden Sun fans! A place where we can be a community. But this home needs a name, yeah? I have a few ideas on what to call our community, but I’d like to hear yours. Any ideas?

— The Sun Rises Again - Golden Sun Revival (@TheSunRisesAga2) January 17, 2019

It’s still a ways off (I’m testing the flexibility of the platform with a free dummy account before I drop money on it) but might as well figure out what to call our little community.

 

[SPEN18]

It’s still a ways off (I’m testing the flexibility of the platform with a free dummy account before I drop money on it) but might as well figure out what to call our little community.

Idk maybe you could name it after a location from the GS games, like Serenes Forest. Not getting any specific ideas at the moment, unfortunately

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

Idk maybe you could name it after a location from the GS games, like Serenes Forest. Not getting any specific ideas at the moment, unfortunately

Sol Sanctum fits it perfectly lol. I’ll throw that in the pile of ideas.

 

[SPEN18]

Sol Sanctum fits it perfectly lol. I’ll throw that in the pile of ideas.

Idk how I didn't come up with that one within the 30 seconds I was thinking about it lol.

But anyway, Sol Sanctum is where the journey began for Isaac, so maybe it's also where the journey towards a new GS begins. It also has "Sol" in it, and I think some kind of Sun reference is a pretty good call.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

Keep in mind this website thing is only an idea, I dunno how far I’ll go with it. I’m just toying with the idea.

Edit: Hey I just realized I’m a Smash Ace now. So where’s the Champaign?

 

[Kalaam]

Keep in mind this website thing is only an idea, I dunno how far I’ll go with it. I’m just toying with the idea.

Edit: Hey I just realized I’m a Smash Ace now. So where’s the Champaign?

Ivan you are too young.

 

[shocktarts17]

I think unique geomancer psychic that has been requested forever and probably did great on the ballot are credentials just as good as, or even better than, those of characters there.

Well I think for now we'll probably have to just acknowledge that they were all likely highly requested and until we get official ballot results we won't be able to say one was more popular than another, though if I'm being honest I seriously doubt he beat Ridley or K. Rool.
Now back to the "uniqueness" factor, let me once again say that I very much believe Isaac has great and unique moveset potential and that this is not an attack on Isaac in any way. Okay with that out of the way, like T-Donor66 so wonderfully demonstrated Isaac is a human holding a sword and is seen as such by the community. Yes he has psychic abilities but so do at least 3 other fighters. Now of course he would use his sword and his psychic abilities in different ways from the other fighters but compare that to a giant crocodile who shoots a cannon an rides a helicopter pack or a giant dragon with a spiky tail and his trademarked "brutality" or a half-squid who fights using paint.
Isaac is a fantastic character who would have a great moveset, he just had some really stiff competition this time for not very many slots.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Well I think for now we'll probably have to just acknowledge that they were all likely highly requested and until we get official ballot results we won't be able to say one was more popular than another, though if I'm being honest I seriously doubt he beat Ridley or K. Rool.
Now back to the "uniqueness" factor, let me once again say that I very much believe Isaac has great and unique moveset potential and that this is not an attack on Isaac in any way. Okay with that out of the way, like T-Donor66 so wonderfully demonstrated Isaac is a human holding a sword and is seen as such by the community. Yes he has psychic abilities but so do at least 3 other fighters. Now of course he would use his sword and his psychic abilities in different ways from the other fighters but compare that to a giant crocodile who shoots a cannon an rides a helicopter pack or a giant dragon with a spiky tail and his trademarked "brutality" or a half-squid who fights using paint.
Isaac is a fantastic character who would have a great moveset, he just had some really stiff competition this time for not very many slots.

Yeah, if development wasn't so tight (in before "but three years is a long time", no it's not, for a dev), maybe there might have been slight consideration. As it is now though, the chances of people supporting him for the next game will increase since nobody's concerned about Ridley/Rool/Inkling getting in anymore.

More than anything though, I hope the person behind the Grinch leak got comeuppance. You don't mess with a fanbase like that for funsies.

 

[Nauzgo]

Keep in mind this website thing is only an idea, I dunno how far I’ll go with it. I’m just toying with the idea.

Edit: Hey I just realized I’m a Smash Ace now. So where’s the Champaign?

Or what about something like 'Guardians of Vale' ?

 

[TempestSurge]

While Isaac's Brawl assist does give a mention of him being able to manipulate the earth (but choosing to represent his assist instead with utility psynergy). I think from solely a Smash perspective, Sakurai has done well to show that Isaac isn't just a swordsman. His two smash renders hardly put the emphasis on his sword, I'd say it's his on his hand positioning than anything. In Brawl the sword is almost hidden and Ultimate it's sheathed like his official artwork.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the smashified render is the only portrayal of Isaac outright holding his sword. While not technically official, it is the one render that has been constantly cycling thoughout the years and used to represent Isaac when talked about in speculation videos and the like.

Even to that end, Isaac being skilled with the sword in addition to his psynergy abilities is a part of his character so it's frustrating how a sword being present on ones body in any capacity is triggering to the community to spread falsely that Isaac is just another swordsman without the proper research. Heck, even if one is only familiar with Isaac through Smash, he's not even shown using his sword as an assist. One may not know of his ability to manipulate earth but I don't see how the claim that he'd be another generic swordsman makes sense watching his assist.

I also think Isaac being assumed a generic swordsman from his looks isn't the most negative thing that the community uses against him, mainly the fact that you're even daring to support an old character from a dead series and think he stands a chance at playability. I've even seen some fans of GS themselves have the defeatist attitude in regards to Golden Sun's inactive status.

 

[shocktarts17]

While Isaac's Brawl assist does give a mention of him being able to manipulate the earth (but choosing to represent his assist instead with utility psynergy). I think from solely a Smash perspective, Sakurai has done well to show that Isaac isn't just a swordsman. His two smash renders hardly put the emphasis on his sword, I'd say it's his on his hand positioning than anything. In Brawl the sword is almost hidden and Ultimate it's sheathed like his official artwork.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the smashified render is the only portrayal of Isaac outright holding his sword. While not technically official, it is the one render that has been constantly cycling thoughout the years and used to represent Isaac when talked about in speculation videos and the like.

Even to that end, Isaac being skilled with the sword in addition to his psynergy abilities is a part of his character so it's frustrating how a sword being present on ones body in any capacity is triggering to the community to spread falsely that Isaac is just another swordsman without the proper research. Heck, even if one is only familiar with Isaac through Smash, he's not even shown using his sword as an assist. One may not know of his ability to manipulate earth but I don't see how the claim that he'd be another generic swordsman makes sense watching his assist.

I also think Isaac being assumed a generic swordsman from his looks isn't the most negative thing that the community uses against him, mainly the fact that you're even daring to support an old character from a dead series and think he stands a chance at playability. I've even seen some fans of GS themselves have the defeatist attitude in regards to Golden Sun's inactive status.

Well his trophy in Brawl has him holding his sword so it's not like it's completely unfounded.

Not to mention being a Swordfighter Mii.

But I agree, and I've said this before but as a Fire Emblem fan I'm doubly upset with the "anime swordsmen" nonsense and how it effects Isaac and any FE character, but I can't change how the community sees it and I think Sakurai has to at least consider what the community will say about any character.

I also agree about the dead franchise thing, but honestly I feel like that's more a product of the character wars than a smash community thing. Everyone wants to believe their character has a better chance than others and will use anything they can to justify it. But look at the positive reactions to characters like Pit or Ice Climbers to say that the smash community on the whole doesn't mind old characters getting in.

 

[Organization XIII]

I don't think

But I agree, and I've said this before but as a Fire Emblem fan I'm doubly upset with the "anime swordsmen" nonsense and how it effects Isaac and any FE character, but I can't change how the community sees it and I think Sakurai has to at least consider what the community will say about any character.

I also agree about the dead franchise thing, but honestly I feel like that's more a product of the character wars than a smash community thing. Everyone wants to believe their character has a better chance than others and will use anything they can to justify it. But look at the positive reactions to characters like Pit or Ice Climbers to say that the smash community on the whole doesn't mind old characters getting in.

If Sakurai truly listened to statements against a character then Chrom wouldn't have been added period. I don't think Sakurai listens to people's reasons against a character. And character's without a future was listed as a disadvantage not something that makes it impossible just far harder. Sakurai just happens to choose dead characters almost exclusively from the NES era so while fans do enjoy some older characters it comes down to the one or two characters Sakurai wants to add for surprises rather than who the community asked for that hasn't been around for a while. Like for instance for Melee retro characters were included on a ballot for the game and despite not receiving many votes in comparison to other retro choices Sakurai added Ice Climbers because he felt the team mechanic was interesting and chose G&W despite not even being one of the choices.

 

[shocktarts17]

I don't think

If Sakurai truly listened to statements against a character then Chrom wouldn't have been added period. I don't think Sakurai listens to people's reasons against a character. And character's without a future was listed as a disadvantage not something that makes it impossible just far harder. Sakurai just happens to choose dead characters almost exclusively from the NES era so while fans do enjoy some older characters it comes down to the one or two characters Sakurai wants to add for surprises rather than who the community asked for that hasn't been around for a while. Like for instance for Melee retro characters were included on a ballot for the game and despite not receiving many votes in comparison to other retro choices Sakurai added Ice Climbers because he felt the team mechanic was interesting and chose G&W despite not even being one of the choices.

Honestly Chrom is a very unique situation that I don't think should be used as a yard stick for anyone. He was probably just about the easiest echo to make because they already had a model for him thanks to Robin's final smash. So if (hypothetically) an echo takes 50% of the time a unique characters takes I'd guess Chrom would be closer to 25-30%. I think this in turn is shown by the fact that they didn't even take the time to remove him from Robin's moveset which would have added back the gained time by needing to model a whole new character again. I think if Chrom was the perfect storm of easy to echo and popular, any less popular or any harder to add and he probably wouldn't have made it.

And my comment didn't have anything to do with retro characters being being easier or harder to get in, just that the community generally is happy to see them once they are there so it isn't as much of a negative as people like to suggest it is.

 

[Pinguino21v]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the smashified render is the only portrayal of Isaac outright holding his sword. While not technically official, it is the one render that has been constantly cycling thoughout the years and used to represent Isaac when talked about in speculation videos and the like.

I never thought about it, but it's so true, it had probably not helped us on that front.

 

[SonicLink125]

While Isaac's Brawl assist does give a mention of him being able to manipulate the earth (but choosing to represent his assist instead with utility psynergy). I think from solely a Smash perspective, Sakurai has done well to show that Isaac isn't just a swordsman. His two smash renders hardly put the emphasis on his sword, I'd say it's his on his hand positioning than anything. In Brawl the sword is almost hidden and Ultimate it's sheathed like his official artwork.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the smashified render is the only portrayal of Isaac outright holding his sword. While not technically official, it is the one render that has been constantly cycling thoughout the years and used to represent Isaac when talked about in speculation videos and the like.

Even to that end, Isaac being skilled with the sword in addition to his psynergy abilities is a part of his character so it's frustrating how a sword being present on ones body in any capacity is triggering to the community to spread falsely that Isaac is just another swordsman without the proper research. Heck, even if one is only familiar with Isaac through Smash, he's not even shown using his sword as an assist. One may not know of his ability to manipulate earth but I don't see how the claim that he'd be another generic swordsman makes sense watching his assist.

I also think Isaac being assumed a generic swordsman from his looks isn't the most negative thing that the community uses against him, mainly the fact that you're even daring to support an old character from a dead series and think he stands a chance at playability. I've even seen some fans of GS themselves have the defeatist attitude in regards to Golden Sun's inactive status.

This! While it may not be the full reason, it didn’t help that the Smashified Render had Isaac holding a sword which made Isaac included in the whole “Anime Swordsman” argument. Which is why I hope more artwork of him will portray his earth bending powers instead since there is a lot you can work with. Also, I’m so glad we finally got an amazing new render of Isaac from NibrocRock. Hope we use that from now on!

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Honestly Chrom is a very unique situation that I don't think should be used as a yard stick for anyone. He was probably just about the easiest echo to make because they already had a model for him thanks to Robin's final smash. So if (hypothetically) an echo takes 50% of the time a unique characters takes I'd guess Chrom would be closer to 25-30%. I think this in turn is shown by the fact that they didn't even take the time to remove him from Robin's moveset which would have added back the gained time by needing to model a whole new character again. I think if Chrom was the perfect storm of easy to echo and popular, any less popular or any harder to add and he probably wouldn't have made it.

And my comment didn't have anything to do with retro characters being being easier or harder to get in, just that the community generally is happy to see them once they are there so it isn't as much of a negative as people like to suggest it is.

And let's face it; if Chrom wasn't added, there would be a subset of fans that would still be livid about the jokes made at his expense in 4 (one of those jokes done by Viridi, no less).

To me, I think the FE stigma only blew up after Awakening's trio of main characters led to two of them being put in 4's base roster. Fates' Corrin as one of the few newcomer DLC characters was the hair that broke the camel's back.

And Three Houses is going to have four leads. When Smash 6 rolls around, it'll get ugly if the "main characters first" pattern in regards to FE turns up again, regardless of some of these ones not using swords for once.

 

[SPEN18]

Sakurai added Ice Climbers because he felt the team mechanic was interesting

In the case of Ice Climbers, they were included specifically as a way to fill a "NES era rep" quota. Sakurai felt that they were the most interesting and feasible out of the NES era characters. This probably makes your argument even stronger

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

In the case of Ice Climbers, they were included specifically as a way to fill a "NES era rep" quota. Sakurai felt that they were the most interesting and feasible out of the NES era characters. This probably makes your argument even stronger

Fun fact about that, one of the candidates he passed over was Balloon Fighter, because he wasn't sure what BF would do if his balloons got popped. As we all know, he eventually found a compromise.

 

[tbuster766]

Sorry, but Marth has gotta be there. He's appeared in the most FE games and is the OG protagonist. He's also easily the best representative of FE protagonists as a whole, since most of them are on-foot sword wielders and Marth fits the bill for the archetypical lordling personality and backstory. I'd also argue that he's the de facto face of the franchise; there's a reason that Marth was tied into Awakening more than any other "legacy" FE character. Also, Sakurai said he wanted to add Marth as a second sword character in Smash 64, not Sigurd. I like Sigurd and think he would be a good choice, but he would have to be in addition to and not instead of Marth. I'll even go a step further and say that Marth's moveset is the single best representative for the Fire Emblem series as a whole that I can imagine. The whole theme of Marth's moveset is spacing, which is incredibly important to Fire Emblem, a tactical role-playing series where you need to position your units in just the right places to take advantage of the enemy. It's actually pretty amazing how Sakurai was able to translate the feel of a strategy-focused game into a platform fighter. I suppose that another FE on-foot sword user could hypothetically use this type of moveset, but there are few at best that make sense for this kind of play as much as Marth (it'd be weird for Ike to do it, for example), and certainly none with more credentials than him in terms of legacy and importance to the series. If we only got one FE character, it'd be Marth, hands down. The only points against him are lack of recency and not being the absolute highest in popularity, though only a few FE characters are going to have recency on their side at any one time and Marth certainly isn't a slouch in popularity. His current popularity also speaks to his great legacy within the series.

Source for Marth being planned in 64: https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/12/13/sakurai-fe25/
According to Sakurai, it seems like Marth would have been in Smash 64 had there been more time and/or resources.

"The Marth Remakes besides FE12 were terrible." So just Shadow Dragon? That was the only "Marth Remake" other than FE12. I guess FE3 technically includes a remake, but it also includes a whole new story afterwards.

With Hector, I'm down for a FE7 rep, but I think it ought to be Lyn. I also don't think that just being an axe user is enough; for me, Ike is essentially what would be our "axe wielder," as he plays fairly similarly to how I'd imagine Hector, minus potential thunder effects (which I don't think would be super prominent in Hector's moveset). Lyn is my number one pick for a FE character that isn't already in the game. She's absurdly popular, only really outranked by Ike. Also, FE7 is an awesome game and could use representation. Yes, she's a sword user, but I don't care about that. Give her a bow for a special move, some throws (like how Fox uses his blaster for throws), and maybe a couple of aerials (like Villager's slingshot) if you really care about new weapon types.

As I already tangentially covered, Ike is there primarily because he's ridiculously popular in both the FE fanbase and the Smash fanbase. Besides that, he's also a really good contrast to Marth in terms of gameplay, personality, and story. If you really and truly care about new weapons, then you could insert the Urvan into Ike's moveset for a few moves, but such a change would have little impact.

With Black Knight, I don't view a villain as an obligatory thing for each franchise. BK probably is the most iconic FE villain, but there are other FE characters that are not villains who are still more iconic than him. Plus you could sort of count Robin as a villain if you changed his Final Smash. I have a lot of good things to say about the Tellius games, but I don't think we absolutely need another rep from them, though I wouldn't have a problem if we did (I'm trying not to let my bias come into play too much here). While I think BK could be unique and interesting, I don't feel like he has enough else to warrant giving him a high priority. I was alright with an AT for BK.

Robin with alts is an interesting idea but I don't know if you could represent everybody properly like that. That one leak had Soren based on Robin and we *almost* bought it (lol how this fake text leak keeps coming up), and a lot of these characters use Staves upon promotion, but this would be admittedly hard to do well. For example, Soren and Lewyn are focused specifically around wind, while Micaiah would want a Sacrifice mechanic to fully represent her and Celica would want a self-damaging mechanic. In retrospect Robin was a pretty good choice for the Awakening rep, and he's nowhere close to the same as the other sword users.

Lucina's an easy Echo; she's also very popular and plays an important role in a game that was huge for the series as a whole. I like her being there more than Chrom.

I'd really like to be able to argue more in favor of Ephraim, as Sacred Stones was a really enjoyable experience and Ephraim is an awesome character in a lot of ways, but I'm not inclined to include him just because he has a lance. And I'm not sure that Sacred Stones was an important enough game to warrant a full PC. Don't misinterpret me; Sacred Stones is among the FE games I've played for a lot of hours, but I'm trying to be mostly unbiased here. I wouldn't be disappointed with Ephraim, though; he's a real cool dude.

Roy is an odd duck. He's really popular but a lot of that is just because he's been in Smash. He's another GBA rep and one clone is fine, so I think that's enough to keep him. The flame effects don't hurt him either, though I did kind of dismiss Hector's potential thunder effects so I won't really argue using this.

Chrom and Corrin I'm alright with giving the boot. Awakening was an important game for FE but Robin and Lucina is probably enough for it. I also did not really care much for Fates, but it was also a heavily pushed and successful game, so Corrin gets points for that as well as for being a transformation character, which is different. So I can see why they'd keep Corrin, but I'm also fine if they just use Robin/Lucina as the reps for the "3DS era" and skipped Fates. I'd also be open to Azura as a compromise with the "we need a lance user" fans and marketers; likewise, I'd be open to Tiki as another transformation character who helps to tie new and old FE together. You could also use someone like Sigurd in this spot as a legacy character who brings something interesting, namely his horse (assuming he'd be feasible).

TLDR:

If I picked the FE roster, it would likely be (in order of priority, Marth the first pick):
Marth
Ike
Robin
Lyn
Roy
Sigurd/Azura/Corrin/Tiki/Ephraim/Hector/Black Knight

Lucina (listed separately since she's an Echo)

The last slot with the slashes is admittedly an extremely difficult call. I tried to put them somewhat in order but some of them are pretty close. The top four are no-brainers for me, and I think Roy is alright if he's the only non-Echo clone. Leif, who was originally planned to be the Melee Marth clone, could also be used in place of Roy but there's really not much point in doing that unless you really want someone from Jugdral and you either don't deem Sigurd's mount to be feasible or want Azura/Corrin for Fates representation. If you could somehow find a way to make Micaiah or Celica work as a Robin clone then they could also replace Roy, but I don't view that as being especially easy to do.

The only problem I'd see with Sigurd is how he's a cavalry unit. I think the next best candidate would be Seliph.

 

[Organization XIII]

Honestly Chrom is a very unique situation that I don't think should be used as a yard stick for anyone. He was probably just about the easiest echo to make because they already had a model for him thanks to Robin's final smash. So if (hypothetically) an echo takes 50% of the time a unique characters takes I'd guess Chrom would be closer to 25-30%. I think this in turn is shown by the fact that they didn't even take the time to remove him from Robin's moveset which would have added back the gained time by needing to model a whole new character again. I think if Chrom was the perfect storm of easy to echo and popular, any less popular or any harder to add and he probably wouldn't have made it.

And my comment didn't have anything to do with retro characters being being easier or harder to get in, just that the community generally is happy to see them once they are there so it isn't as much of a negative as people like to suggest it is.

That's the point. The giant moment within the Smash community for no more FE characters or no more swordsmen or even no clones didn't matter he was still added. Echoes are still a thing. Pokemon still got a newcomer. Ridley whose popularity and hate was literally split down the middle still got in. What the community says they don't want isn't a priority. So, in this case, Chrom is actually a great example as he perfectly embodies everything fans asked Sakurai explicitly not to do and it didn't stop him.
As for the retro thing I just meant there was more to the argument than character wars. There's, unfortunately, a basis they also pull from.

 

[smashkirby]

And let's face it; if Chrom wasn't added, there would be a subset of fans that would still be livid about the jokes made at his expense in 4 (one of those jokes done by Viridi, no less).

Honestly, I would have been part of that subset. Heck, I still find it sort of a hollow victory how Chrom didn't get back at the Kid Icarus cast (ESPECIALLY Viridi, as he can at least wail on Pit and Palutena) for all of their potshots towards him in Smash 4.

 

[Guynamednelson]

So, in this case, Chrom is actually a great example as he perfectly embodies everything fans asked Sakurai explicitly not to do and it didn't stop him.

To be fair, ballot entries for Chrom would've come before there was a 6th FE rep announced, and a lot of them potentially before the announcement of Roy's return.

That, and Sakurai said Chrom was requested by the Japanese, who might care less about how many FE swordsmen are on the roster.

 

[Organization XIII]

To be fair, ballot entries for Chrom would've come before there was a 6th FE rep announced, and a lot of them potentially before the announcement of Roy's return.

His ballot entries might have been but his inclusion was still after those events so it's not like he was chosen before people expressed their displeasure with the FE line up.

 

[SPEN18]

The only problem I'd see with Sigurd is how he's a cavalry unit. I think the next best candidate would be Seliph.

Yeah I kind of alluded to that; I can totally see problems with Sigurd's mount because of the proportions. Sigurd himself would probably be about the size of Marth, and if they made the horse to scale with Sigurd, it would be pretty big; I think it'd be awkward if Sigurd and his horse were bigger together than, say, Ridley or Bowser. They'd probably have to make the horse smaller, but that might make Sigurd look too big. Making Sigurd significantly smaller than other human characters would also be weird. Plus there's stuff like ledge grabbing that would be wonky without some creativity. I suppose they could have Sigurd only on his horse for certain moves, but then you're getting into territory where you are in danger of not representing the character accurately. If they could find a way to do it that isn't too clunky, though, it could be fun and different.

Seliph is someone who I considered briefly but quickly decided was not one of the best choices. I feel like a lot of Smash fans wouldn't like him because he mostly uses a sword and doesn't have a lot of other interesting abilities (technically he has a mount and lances after promotion, which I guess could be worked into the moveset, but they aren't what he's known for doing, and at that point you may as well just use Sigurd); while I personally don't have a problem with another sword character, he doesn't have much else to put him over the top. More than this, though, I think Leif is the next best Jugdral choice after Sigurd; he's arguably about as important as Seliph and his Light Brand provides some interesting moveset options. In fact, he was planned for Melee as the Marth clone before they switched to Roy.

As an aside, Roy is the only current GBA rep for FE, so I'd only cut him if we were getting Lyn.

 

[Frosty Pops]

Wow I didn't expect such a casual question to spark such outrage, I guess a lot of Issac fans have more pent up frustration that they generally show.

That said I do want to address Sakurai's comment concerning Piranha Plant and hopefully clear up some of the misconceptions here.

First lets look at exactly what the interview says,
"The Super Smash Bros. series has always spawned much fan speculation for characters that will be included, but with Piranha Plant, you have given players one of the most unpredictable inclusions. How does it feel to be able to still surprise fans even so many years later? Was that one of the intents of the inclusion of this character?
I’m actually not paying too much focus on the surprise element when we introduce a new fighter. The surprise element quickly fades once the announcement has been made.
Rather, I believe it’s important to have a good balance as a game. In the past titles in the series, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B. and Duck Hunt Dog were some of the examples we offered outside of people’s typical expectations. However, if we don’t have these types of fighters, and we only had typical “hero/heroine” type fighters in the lineup, there’s not much difference. It’s probably not very interesting. Correct?
Also, unlike some main characters from some (not widely known) franchises, Piranha Plant is a character everyone knows well. And, I want to make sure to remind everyone that it is a limited-time offer fighter everyone can get for free as an early-purchase bonus."
Okay now I'm going to pull out the important part and highlight the parts I think are important,
"Rather, I believe it’s important to have a good balance as a game. In the past titles in the series, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B. and Duck Hunt Dog were some of the examples we offered outside of people’s typical expectations. However, if we don’t have these types of fighters, and we only had typical “hero/heroine” type fighters in the lineup, there’s not much difference. It’s probably not very interesting. Correct?"

Okay so what does that mean? Well the one thing it 100% does not mean is that he hates the standard hero/heroine and wouldn't include them if it was up to him. All that he is saying here is that he wants a little diversity on the roster. Instead of every character being the same brave heroic type you get a mix of all types.

Lets take a look at this in practice. First take a look at the Fire Emblem representation that people even in this thread like to complain about. What we have with the Fire Emblem cast is a cast of all heroes and main characters from their games, and because of this everyone complains that the Fire Emblem reps are all the same and boring. Next lets look at Pokemon, specifically Incineroar since he is another one people in this thread were complaining about. For Pokemon the starters are often seen as the "main" Pokemon for that generation so when Incineroar gets in as another "main" Pokemon people complain that he is boring and unnecessary. So now lets compare that to the Mario series. Mario has more characters than any other series, and while many people would probably argue rightfully so there is no denying that the Mario reps don't get near the hate that Fire Emblem or Pokemon does. And why is that? Well look at the Mario cast, after Mario and Luigi you also have Peach who is more often a damsel in distress, Bowser and Bowser Jr as villains, and Roselina as a supporting NPC. Its a diverse cast of heroes, villains, and supporting characters. This is exactly what Sakurai is talking about, not that he doesn't want heroes in the game but that he wants to have characters who are unique and bring something new to the table.

So Sakurai isn't trying to add random nobody characters over people's favorites, he is trying to make the roster as diverse as he can. And as much as all of us would like Isaac there is no denying that Piranha Plant is way more unique than he would be.

To me diversity is how you make your character. Isaac who by gameplay alone would be one of the most unique characters as no one uses anything like what he has the potential to bring to the fight. Add a FE character who doesn't use a sword with a unique fighting style instead of 4 who are basically the same and 1 who is slightly different (Ike) YES!!! Add Ephraim with a spear and jabbing moves and leg sweeps. Throw the freaking thing like a javelin! Hector and axes toss it like a Belmont for all I care. Just stop making slight variations of the same thing.

And Incineroar....lets see Captain Falcon has the fiery brawler thing covered, and alot of characters already use fire attacks...oh and we have a fire pokemon. Why don't they pick a better pokemon of a type currently unused with more unique moves from current fighters? So use Lycanroc, give us rock attacks and a 4 legged fighter for more diversity since I believe Ivysaur is currently the only one? Also a better pokemon in general but that is my own opinion.

And the real reason Mario characters get no hate might surprise you...but not a single one plays or looks the same as the others. Luigi and Mario now play very differently, and the rest range from princesses to dragons.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Well his trophy in Brawl has him holding his sword so it's not like it's completely unfounded.

Not to mention being a Swordfighter Mii.

But I agree, and I've said this before but as a Fire Emblem fan I'm doubly upset with the "anime swordsmen" nonsense and how it effects Isaac and any FE character, but I can't change how the community sees it and I think Sakurai has to at least consider what the community will say about any character.

I also agree about the dead franchise thing, but honestly I feel like that's more a product of the character wars than a smash community thing. Everyone wants to believe their character has a better chance than others and will use anything they can to justify it. But look at the positive reactions to characters like Pit or Ice Climbers to say that the smash community on the whole doesn't mind old characters getting in.

If Sakurai cared about fan response we wouldn’t have had Piranha Plant, Incineroar, Corrin, and probably Greninja.

Keep in mind, I think with that motley crew, maybe he should keep fan response in mind.

 

[NessAtc.]

Well his trophy in Brawl has him holding his sword so it's not like it's completely unfounded.

Not to mention being a Swordfighter Mii.

But I agree, and I've said this before but as a Fire Emblem fan I'm doubly upset with the "anime swordsmen" nonsense and how it effects Isaac and any FE character, but I can't change how the community sees it and I think Sakurai has to at least consider what the community will say about any character.

I also agree about the dead franchise thing, but honestly I feel like that's more a product of the character wars than a smash community thing. Everyone wants to believe their character has a better chance than others and will use anything they can to justify it. But look at the positive reactions to characters like Pit or Ice Climbers to say that the smash community on the whole doesn't mind old characters getting in.

His Brawl dojo entry literally notes how he doesn't use his sword, just move. If people somehow get sword focused moveset out of a character that hasn't used his sword in his assist once, that's a judgement issue.

 

[Guynamednelson]

probably Greninja.

Nah, I think Greninja is a lot less controversial:

• Was popular before being confirmed for Smash
• Its status as a Gen VI mascot wasn't debatable
• People who wanted Mewtwo still eventually got it
• A limited pool of newcomers wasn't a problem with 4

 

[GoodGrief741]

Nah, I think Greninja is a lot less controversial:

• Was popular before being confirmed for Smash
• Its status as a Gen VI mascot wasn't debatable
• People who wanted Mewtwo still eventually got it
• A limited pool of newcomers wasn't a problem with 4

Oh, I don’t think Greninja was controversial. But if Sakurai cared about fan response, he would have waited for the character to exist for a while before including him in the game. Otherwise, he’s risking them being received like Incineroar was.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I was wondering, has anyone used the new Isaac render to create a new support button? (like the one in my signature)

 

[shocktarts17]

To me diversity is how you make your character. Isaac who by gameplay alone would be one of the most unique characters as no one uses anything like what he has the potential to bring to the fight. Add a FE character who doesn't use a sword with a unique fighting style instead of 4 who are basically the same and 1 who is slightly different (Ike) YES!!! Add Ephraim with a spear and jabbing moves and leg sweeps. Throw the freaking thing like a javelin! Hector and axes toss it like a Belmont for all I care. Just stop making slight variations of the same thing.

And Incineroar....lets see Captain Falcon has the fiery brawler thing covered, and alot of characters already use fire attacks...oh and we have a fire pokemon. Why don't they pick a better pokemon of a type currently unused with more unique moves from current fighters? So use Lycanroc, give us rock attacks and a 4 legged fighter for more diversity since I believe Ivysaur is currently the only one? Also a better pokemon in general but that is my own opinion.

And the real reason Mario characters get no hate might surprise you...but not a single one plays or looks the same as the others. Luigi and Mario now play very differently, and the rest range from princesses to dragons.

Honestly I'm a little surprised how much push back I'm getting over this "unique" thing, is it just reflex after the constant "anime swordsman" talk from the naysayers? I stated I thought he would still be unique and I'm not going to just keep saying that over and over again, but if you can truly say that Isaac is going to be more unique than someone like Inkling or K. Rool then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

If Sakurai cared about fan response we wouldn’t have had Piranha Plant, Incineroar, Corrin, and probably Greninja.

Keep in mind, I think with that motley crew, maybe he should keep fan response in mind.

Just because you don't like them doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. I've already stated that PP got in as a diversity pick, and Corrin was a combo platter of promotional material from a popular game that had potential for a unique moveset. Sakurai even said he wouldn't have added Corrin if he didn't think they had such potential for a unique moveset. And Pokemon has enough fans that even if less than half of them like any given Pokemon, it still probably has more fans than Isaac/Geno/Banjo/Waluigi/etc.

His Brawl dojo entry literally notes how he doesn't use his sword, just move. If people somehow get sword focused moveset out of a character that hasn't used his sword in his assist once, that's a judgement issue.

Yeah but that is considerably more obscure than just looking at the trophy or making a mii. And even if he never uses it it's still strapped to his back so it's not like its some bizarre stretch that people would think he fights with a sword.

And at the end of the day he does fight with a sword in Golden Sun (yes I know it could be an axe or other things but he mostly used swords) and the only reason Isaac fans are trying to take away his sword is because they think it's hurting his chances to get in. But if we're honest here Isaac should use his sword because that's part of how he fights in his games.