Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

ThoughtfulWanderer · Jul 30, 2018

GoodGrief741 said:
That attitude from the devs really needs to change. If we keep only picking the latest and NES, the longer we go the more console generations we’ll ignore. New characters who miss their shot while they’re fresh will fall by the wayside and be forgotten. I feel like that’s missing the spirit of Smash.

It's the one blemish with the roster selection and I'm glad that it isn't just me who's expressing it. It's so narrow-minded and it makes it too obvious that their approach is "marketing first". It seems like this game is supposed to answer for that issue, but only time can tell how committed they are to that and if by the end, they'll have remedied the absence of characters or entire series that they've kicked to the curb. With the long-standing demand for K. Rool, Geno, and Isaac dating back to Brawl, they're the first we should look out for. There's something seriously wrong if we can't get them in this time.

Golden Icarus · Jul 30, 2018

GoodGrief741 said:
That attitude from the devs really needs to change. If we keep only picking the latest and NES, the longer we go the more console generations we’ll ignore. New characters who miss their shot while they’re fresh will fall by the wayside and be forgotten. I feel like that’s missing the spirit of Smash.

Agreed. “A celebration of Nintendo’s history” seems to essentially mean a celebration of what’s already been in Smash, what’s new, and the NES. That’s obviously an oversimplified way of putting it, and I don’t mean to knock all of Sakurai’s work and everything he has built Smash to be. His character choices I feel are pretty much always brilliant and wonderfully executed with VERY few exceptions. It’s just a shame that many characters born at the wrong time get overshadowed for no significant reason other than timing. Just sounds a little silly when, again, this is supposed to be a celebration of all of Nintendo’s history.

ThoughtfulWanderer said:
It's the one blemish with the roster selection and I'm glad that it isn't just me who's expressing it. It's so narrow-minded and it makes it too obvious that their approach is "marketing first". It seems like this game is supposed to answer for that issue, but only time can tell how committed they are to that and if by the end, they'll have remedied the absence of characters or entire series that they've kicked to the curb. With the long-standing demand for K. Rool, Geno, and Isaac dating back to Brawl, they're the first we should look out for. There's something seriously wrong if we can't get them in this time.

If K. Rool is somehow left out... I have no idea how anyone could fairly justify that decision. He is a perfect example of a Nintendo all-star currently absent from Smash. And his lack of recent appearances coupled with his still very immense popularity only further proves this.

Hydewell · Jul 30, 2018

What a drama.

But anyways, I wouldn't put much fate in that Vergeben leak. He is known to change a lot of things of his original claims and recopilating rumours/leaks of the internet and presenting them as if there were its own (Star Fox Racing rumour, the Street Fighter season pass, Ridley being in Smash, etc.).

For example, I'm gonna say Nintendo will present a n64 mini in a few days (maybe tomorrow considering they will release the Q2 sales). A new 2d metroid is being developed by Mercury Steam. Also, probably they will reveal a 2D Mario in the next direct. That means I'm a leaker? Nah, I read some guys who are less well-known but they were right before (though the 2DMario (probably a New Super Mario Bros itineration or a deluxe version) has been said by a lot people tbf).
If he was reliable, he wouldn't edit his leaks.

But that doesn't mean Isaac is guaranteed or even plausible. Everyone who asked for him know Isaac doesn't have a lot of chances to be a newcomer. His best chance is the ballot and we don't even know how he did it and if Sakurai and his team will use it to choose all the newcomers.

Anyways, tomorrow we'll know if Mario Tennis Aces is a million seller or not. And, if it's, we'll know how much it sold.

EricTheGamerman · Jul 30, 2018

Glad to see other people agree with me when it comes to the issue of Smash choosing to ignore much of Nintendo’s middle history because it is either less marketable or “less relevant.” This whole nonsense of Smash only being an advertising machine needs to stop (I’m not saying Smash is, but a lot of people believe that, and I’d say even Sakurai gets some pressure from up high).

What I probably hate most is people act like irrelevancy is the end all, be all to far too many characters. Never mind how interesting or unique they could be, or how could they could add something else to the game. Nope. Irrelevant. Never happening. I’ve also seen people act like introducing an irrelevant character takes a spot from a relevant character, nevermind the fact those two ideas don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

That’s what kills me. We don’t have to go all in on one or the other. My dream for Smash has always been for it to add equally from history and from relevant current names. There is no reason other than some perceived marketability of characters to only add the newer/more relevant ones, and then a single Retro/WTF rep. This game for example, if we get 7 newcomers. Why couldn’t we do Isaac, Geno, King K Rool and Ridley (he falls under more relevant I guess), Inkling, Ashley, and Bandanna Dee. Why is there such an insistence that we have to be so tied down to more relevant characters, especially when there is so much fan outcry for some of the older ones???

I’ve never seen the issue with doing fan service in a game about fan service. Especially when I’m almost inclined to believe a lot of people who bring up relevancy seem to be more interested in being right than they are supporting characters they want in the game, or sometimes as if the presence of a couple fan picks will absolutely devestate the chances of their favorite more modern picks...

I really want this game to be for the fans. Look at the ballot and everything that has been seriously looked at for Smash in speculations. I know we don’t make up as huge of a portion of a fan base as we’d like to think. But if they add in a couple of more relevant characters, most of that larger base is going to be satisfied anyway Especially the people who are just happy to play Smash and play as say Pikachu, it’s not like the roster has a ton of glaring holes to more casual audiences at this point. So go for the fans, give them some of the characters they want, and make this the Ultimate Smash game all around. That can only be good PR for Nintendo as a whole.

I’ll try not to be too optimistic, but it does look to be the direction their going. Stage hazard toggle? Check. No cuts? Check. Cut verterans that were highly requested? Check. Ridley, Inklings, and even Daisy? Check. Faster gameplay? Check. More competitive and more emphasis on techniques and offense? Check. You start to see my point. We don’t have anything on the irrelevance point of view unfortunately, but things are looking good, and I’m officially riding the Smash hype train again. So I choose to believe that Ultimate will achieve at least some of our dreams.

ThoughtfulWanderer · Jul 30, 2018

EricTheGamerman said:
Glad to see other people agree with me when it comes to the issue of Smash choosing to ignore much of Nintendo’s middle history because it is either less marketable or “less relevant.” This whole nonsense of Smash only being an advertising machine needs to stop (I’m not saying Smash is, but a lot of people believe that, and I’d say even Sakurai gets some pressure from up high).

That’s what kills me. We don’t have to go all in on one or the other. My dream for Smash has always been for it to add equally from history and from relevant current names. There is no reason other than some perceived marketability of characters to only add the newer/more relevant ones, and then a single Retro/WTF rep. This game for example, if we get 7 newcomers. Why couldn’t we do Isaac, Geno, King K Rool and Ridley (he falls under more relevant I guess), Inkling, Ashley, and Bandanna Dee. Why is there such an insistence that we have to be so tied down to more relevant characters, especially when there is so much fan outcry for some of the older ones???

I'm not even kidding when I was just thinking about this to myself a moment ago, and these were the exact characters I thought would be a perfect representation of a fanservice Smash. Add Elma and Mimikyu (which have become plenty popular in their own right) to cover promotion, then a few echos, and even without completely devoting the roster to it, they've already revived a huge chunk of the middle history lost to poor timing.

I'm not at all convinced that most of their focus will be shifted in that direction, but if they have limited slots and have already shown to be including a lot of fan demands in the gameplay, they want to make it seem like that's where they're headed.

That's why if most of those characters are missing again, Sakurai and Nintendo will receive some significant heat and criticism, and it won't be pretty.

EricTheGamerman · Jul 30, 2018

ThoughtfulWanderer said:
I'm not even kidding when I was just thinking about this to myself a moment ago, and these were the exact characters I thought would be a perfect representation of a fanservice Smash. Add Elma and Mimikyu (which have become plenty popular in their own right) to cover promotion, then a few echos, and even without completely devoting the roster to it, they've already revived a huge chunk of the middle history lost to poor timing.

I'm not at all convinced that most of their focus will be shifted in that direction, but if they have limited slots and have already shown to be including a lot of fan demands in the gameplay, they want to make it seem like that's where they're headed.

That's why if most of those characters are missing again, Sakurai and Nintendo will receive some significant heat and criticism, and it won't be pretty.

I think if none of them get in, Nintendo’s going to start facing some serious heat about the ballot. A lot of general perception has skewed that the ballot winner wasn’t exactly Bayonetta like Nintendo claimed (or at least her place more worked out for Nintendo than anything). Ridley was likely a big presence, as were Inklings, so they’ll be able to mitigate some of it. But seriously, at least King K Rool had to have some sort of major presence on the ballot, possibly ranking as one of the highest (and again, if Bayonetta can get first in Europe supposedly, I’d believe that someone like King K Rool could be first in Japan or the America’s).

I think there is an air of frustration around the seemingly ignored fan requested characters that don’t fit the mold that especially Smash 4 adhered to. When sizable fandoms are constantly ignored for first party characters that are basically limited by Nintendo themselves, I suspect you’ll only develop more problems in the long run. Ridley was a big win for fandoms, let’s just keep it up.

Also, I swear people act like including a fan request is something inherently bad. Sure, it’s a character that isn’t yours, but guess what the best part is? You don’t have to hear about that character anymore and spend time debating their viability (Though again, I think some people are just looking to be right more than anything).

LucasTheSmasher · Jul 30, 2018

I had an idea that he should be like shulk by changing djinn for different psynergy, but i also feel he should be unique, so nah.

Skyblade12 · Jul 30, 2018

Thanks for the cheery words, guys. But I still have no hope.

Remember when the Alola starters were being revealed? We got Litten, and it was like "OMG, cute little fire kitty!". And then we were shown off Torracat, and it was even better. And then that concept art leaked, and we saw the Incineroar was the worst Pokémon ever designed. It was just a leak. And there were so many other leaks running around. Like this one:

And many more. So it was just one leak among many.

But as soon as I saw the concept art leak, I KNEW that was what we were going to get. We wouldn't get a good evolution, or a cat at all. Just that monstrosity. I tried to deny it, I wrote off the leaked images as much as I could (though when Mallow was revealed after having been in the concept art, it pretty much finished it, I STILL wanted to deny it). But I knew.

And I have a similar feeling about Isaac. He's not getting in. Nintendo can't promote from him, and they aren't interested in continuing the series. It's just a gut feeling, but I can't get away from it.

NoOtherPersona · Jul 30, 2018

Skyblade12 said:
Thanks for the cheery words, guys. But I still have no hope.

Remember when the Alola starters were being revealed? We got Litten, and it was like "OMG, cute little fire kitty!". And then we were shown off Torracat, and it was even better. And then that concept art leaked, and we saw the Incineroar was the worst Pokémon ever designed. It was just a leak. And there were so many other leaks running around. Like this one:

And many more. So it was just one leak among many.

But as soon as I saw the concept art leak, I KNEW that was what we were going to get. We wouldn't get a good evolution, or a cat at all. Just that monstrosity. I tried to deny it, I wrote off the leaked images as much as I could (though when Mallow was revealed after having been in the concept art, it pretty much finished it, I STILL wanted to deny it). But I knew.

And I have a similar feeling about Isaac. He's not getting in. Nintendo can't promote from him, and they aren't interested in continuing the series. It's just a gut feeling, but I can't get away from it.

I hope your gut feeling is wrong my friend never lose hope.

Opossum · Jul 30, 2018

Skyblade12 said:
Thanks for the cheery words, guys. But I still have no hope.

Remember when the Alola starters were being revealed? We got Litten, and it was like "OMG, cute little fire kitty!". And then we were shown off Torracat, and it was even better. And then that concept art leaked, and we saw the Incineroar was the worst Pokémon ever designed. It was just a leak. And there were so many other leaks running around. Like this one:

And many more. So it was just one leak among many.

But as soon as I saw the concept art leak, I KNEW that was what we were going to get. We wouldn't get a good evolution, or a cat at all. Just that monstrosity. I tried to deny it, I wrote off the leaked images as much as I could (though when Mallow was revealed after having been in the concept art, it pretty much finished it, I STILL wanted to deny it). But I knew.

And I have a similar feeling about Isaac. He's not getting in. Nintendo can't promote from him, and they aren't interested in continuing the series. It's just a gut feeling, but I can't get away from it.

Incineroar is cool though. Only thing I'm not a big fan of is the color scheme. Yeah, he's my least favorite of the Alola starters, but that's because Decidueye and Primarina are some of my favorite starters in general.

GoodGrief741 · Jul 30, 2018

Hydewell said:
What a drama.

But anyways, I wouldn't put much fate in that Vergeben leak. He is known to change a lot of things of his original claims and recopilating rumours/leaks of the internet and presenting them as if there were its own (Star Fox Racing rumour, the Street Fighter season pass, Ridley being in Smash, etc.).

For example, I'm gonna say Nintendo will present a n64 mini in a few days (maybe tomorrow considering they will release the Q2 sales). A new 2d metroid is being developed by Mercury Steam. Also, probably they will reveal a 2D Mario in the next direct. That means I'm a leaker? Nah, I read some guys who are less well-known but they were right before (though the 2DMario (probably a New Super Mario Bros itineration or a deluxe version) has been said by a lot people tbf).
If he was reliable, he wouldn't edit his leaks.

But that doesn't mean Isaac is guaranteed or even plausible. Everyone who asked for him know Isaac doesn't have a lot of chances to be a newcomer. His best chance is the ballot and we don't even know how he did it and if Sakurai and his team will use it to choose all the newcomers.

Anyways, tomorrow we'll know if Mario Tennis Aces is a million seller or not. And, if it's, we'll know how much it sold.

Can I pretend you’re a legit leaker though? I really want a new 2D Metroid.

EricTheGamerman · Jul 30, 2018

Skyblade12 said:
Thanks for the cheery words, guys. But I still have no hope.

Remember when the Alola starters were being revealed? We got Litten, and it was like "OMG, cute little fire kitty!". And then we were shown off Torracat, and it was even better. And then that concept art leaked, and we saw the Incineroar was the worst Pokémon ever designed. It was just a leak. And there were so many other leaks running around. Like this one:

And many more. So it was just one leak among many.

But as soon as I saw the concept art leak, I KNEW that was what we were going to get. We wouldn't get a good evolution, or a cat at all. Just that monstrosity. I tried to deny it, I wrote off the leaked images as much as I could (though when Mallow was revealed after having been in the concept art, it pretty much finished it, I STILL wanted to deny it). But I knew.

And I have a similar feeling about Isaac. He's not getting in. Nintendo can't promote from him, and they aren't interested in continuing the series. It's just a gut feeling, but I can't get away from it.

I definitely get the gut feeling. But our minds are tricky things that love to play confirmation biases and remind us of being shifted in the past, so those feelings shouldn’t entirely disuade you from a little bit of optimism.

The difference with this versus Pokémon’s situation is that we don’t have any real idea of anything right now beyond E3. We don’t have any information to swing us toward any particular direction, or prove even the direction of the newcomers. We have a lot of fan service decisions for Smash so far, so at the very least, I’d argue for now we have some hope. And certainly less to go on in terms of the negative direction.

We just mainly need some new info more than anything...

Kisae · Jul 30, 2018

ThoughtfulWanderer said:
How about a song list for a Golden Sun stage? Obviously, both of the preexisting songs used on Norfair and Palutena's Temple should return in some form, but what about new inclusions?

Venus Lighthouse, Isaac's Battle Theme, a standard boss theme medley, and a world map theme medley would be my obvious "must have" picks. For some personal choices, I'd also throw in TLA's sailing theme and a Sol Sanctum / Elemental Stars medley that starts out with high energy but transitions into a slower-paced song ala the Magicant / Eight Melodies remix. Golden Sun has an atmospheric side to its soundtrack that should be given some love.

- Marching Forward With Determination
- Karst and Agatio BattleTheme
- Colossus Battle Theme
- Sand Prince Theme
- Boss Human Theme
- Elemental Rocks Medley

Annd damn there are waaaay too many beautiful songs ><

Xevious 1 · Jul 30, 2018

ThoughtfulWanderer said:
It's the one blemish with the roster selection and I'm glad that it isn't just me who's expressing it. It's so narrow-minded and it makes it too obvious that their approach is "marketing first". It seems like this game is supposed to answer for that issue, but only time can tell how committed they are to that and if by the end, they'll have remedied the absence of characters or entire series that they've kicked to the curb. With the long-standing demand for K. Rool, Geno, and Isaac dating back to Brawl, they're the first we should look out for. There's something seriously wrong if we can't get them in this time.

I am fully confident that the newcomers are going to ballot characters like Isaac, Geno, k.Rool, Ashley, Shantae, Banjo, Impa, Skull Kid, Simon, and Bandanna Dee as opposed to recent or NES/SNES characters. Sakurai has been really going for fanservice this time around and there is no way that ballot was just for Bayo.

KMDP · Jul 30, 2018

Golden Icarus said:
Agreed. “A celebration of Nintendo’s history” seems to essentially mean a celebration of what’s already been in Smash, what’s new, and the NES. That’s obviously an oversimplified way of putting it, and I don’t mean to knock all of Sakurai’s work and everything he has built Smash to be. His character choices I feel are pretty much always brilliant and wonderfully executed with VERY few exceptions. It’s just a shame that many characters born at the wrong time get overshadowed for no significant reason other than timing. Just sounds a little silly when, again, this is supposed to be a celebration of all of Nintendo’s history.

If K. Rool is somehow left out... I have no idea how anyone could fairly justify that decision. He is a perfect example of a Nintendo all-star currently absent from Smash. And his lack of recent appearances coupled with his still very immense popularity only further proves this.

EricTheGamerman said:
Glad to see other people agree with me when it comes to the issue of Smash choosing to ignore much of Nintendo’s middle history because it is either less marketable or “less relevant.” This whole nonsense of Smash only being an advertising machine needs to stop (I’m not saying Smash is, but a lot of people believe that, and I’d say even Sakurai gets some pressure from up high).

What I probably hate most is people act like irrelevancy is the end all, be all to far too many characters. Never mind how interesting or unique they could be, or how could they could add something else to the game. Nope. Irrelevant. Never happening. I’ve also seen people act like introducing an irrelevant character takes a spot from a relevant character, nevermind the fact those two ideas don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

That’s what kills me. We don’t have to go all in on one or the other. My dream for Smash has always been for it to add equally from history and from relevant current names. There is no reason other than some perceived marketability of characters to only add the newer/more relevant ones, and then a single Retro/WTF rep. This game for example, if we get 7 newcomers. Why couldn’t we do Isaac, Geno, King K Rool and Ridley (he falls under more relevant I guess), Inkling, Ashley, and Bandanna Dee. Why is there such an insistence that we have to be so tied down to more relevant characters, especially when there is so much fan outcry for some of the older ones???

I’ve never seen the issue with doing fan service in a game about fan service. Especially when I’m almost inclined to believe a lot of people who bring up relevancy seem to be more interested in being right than they are supporting characters they want in the game, or sometimes as if the presence of a couple fan picks will absolutely devestate the chances of their favorite more modern picks...

I really want this game to be for the fans. Look at the ballot and everything that has been seriously looked at for Smash in speculations. I know we don’t make up as huge of a portion of a fan base as we’d like to think. But if they add in a couple of more relevant characters, most of that larger base is going to be satisfied anyway Especially the people who are just happy to play Smash and play as say Pikachu, it’s not like the roster has a ton of glaring holes to more casual audiences at this point. So go for the fans, give them some of the characters they want, and make this the Ultimate Smash game all around. That can only be good PR for Nintendo as a whole.

I’ll try not to be too optimistic, but it does look to be the direction their going. Stage hazard toggle? Check. No cuts? Check. Cut verterans that were highly requested? Check. Ridley, Inklings, and even Daisy? Check. Faster gameplay? Check. More competitive and more emphasis on techniques and offense? Check. You start to see my point. We don’t have anything on the irrelevance point of view unfortunately, but things are looking good, and I’m officially riding the Smash hype train again. So I choose to believe that Ultimate will achieve at least some of our dreams.

If relevancy was an issue, we'd have never gotten

Disregarding fan favourite status, obviously.

Seriously, a character being "irrelevant" is such a ridiculous reason to not include them.

ThoughtfulWanderer · Jul 30, 2018

KMDP said:
If relevancy was an issue, we'd have never gotten
Disregarding fan favourite status, obviously.

Seriously, a character being "irrelevant" is such a ridiculous reason to not include them.

Relevancy doesn't apply to Icies, G&W, Pit, R.O.B., and DH because they're all retros. Even if the others were no longer relevant, the fact is that they were kept because of the fan favorite aspect, as you say. You can't disregard it because relevancy only applies to veterans when cuts have to be made. At the time they were chosen, they were relevant so it's not like we wouldn't have gotten them.

It's still unfair since just because newcomers don't have the benefit of a Smash fanbase immortalizing them doesn't mean relevancy is now suddenly a good reason to exclude them. Seriously, Nintendo should look past the short term with the dollar signs. It's not subtle and it's stagnating the potential pool of newcomers.

Hydewell · Jul 30, 2018

GoodGrief741 said:
Can I pretend you’re a legit leaker though? I really want a new 2D Metroid.

It's basically confirmed we'll have a new 2D Metroid. Apart from official speculation (new story in Samus Returns, the last game sold decently (though it didn't arrive at 1 million) and was highly appraised by everyone, Nintendo was happy with the Mercury steam work and direction...), we have a guy in the internet (more exactly, a spanish guy) who insisted there would be a new 2d metroid in 2016 and said that game would be revealed in the 2017's E3 (and giving specific information of the title). And after that, he said like two or three months after the Samus Returns launching that a new 2d metroid was in development, but that one just started.

The funny thing was some guys noticed him and exposed it, and he quickly dismissed his information saying Mercury Steam wasn't the responsible of the title. So yeah, basically he is a friend of some developer (o a developer himself) of the Mercury team and he ****ed up for the minute of glory xD

If you want to know a bit more: https://nintendoeverything.com/rumor-new-2d-metroid-in-the-works/

Arsenal234 · Jul 30, 2018

Skyblade12 said:
Thanks for the cheery words, guys. But I still have no hope.

Remember when the Alola starters were being revealed? We got Litten, and it was like "OMG, cute little fire kitty!". And then we were shown off Torracat, and it was even better. And then that concept art leaked, and we saw the Incineroar was the worst Pokémon ever designed. It was just a leak. And there were so many other leaks running around. Like this one:

And many more. So it was just one leak among many.

But as soon as I saw the concept art leak, I KNEW that was what we were going to get. We wouldn't get a good evolution, or a cat at all. Just that monstrosity. I tried to deny it, I wrote off the leaked images as much as I could (though when Mallow was revealed after having been in the concept art, it pretty much finished it, I STILL wanted to deny it). But I knew.

And I have a similar feeling about Isaac. He's not getting in. Nintendo can't promote from him, and they aren't interested in continuing the series. It's just a gut feeling, but I can't get away from it.

I know how you feel man. I don't think there are many people in this thread that don't know the feeling. I didn't give up hope for Issac in smash 4 until DLC was finished. If Isaac doesn't make the base roster for smash 5 I will support him for DLC. If he doesn't make DLC I will support him for smash 6 and so on.

How do you think the Ridley fans felt wanting one character for well over a decade, and being told no over and repeatedly. If they gave up on him he wouldn't be in smash as we speak. If we all give up on Isaac then he really won't ever get in. You never know with Sakurai. A month from now we could be analyzing Isaac's gameplay trailer talking about his moveset, and how we can't wait to play him. You never know.

KMDP · Jul 30, 2018

ThoughtfulWanderer said:
Relevancy doesn't apply to Icies, G&W, Pit, R.O.B., and DH because they're all retros. Even if the others were no longer relevant, the fact is that they were kept because of the fan favorite aspect, as you say. You can't disregard it because relevancy only applies to veterans when cuts have to be made. At the time they were chosen, they were relevant so it's not like we wouldn't have gotten them.

It's still unfair since just because newcomers don't have the benefit of a Smash fanbase immortalizing them doesn't mean relevancy is now suddenly a good reason to exclude them. Seriously, Nintendo should look past the short term with the dollar signs. It's not subtle and it's stagnating the potential pool of newcomers.

What I'm saying is that, disregarding the "Retro Rep" thing, Game & Watch, Ice Climber, Kid Icarus, R.O.B and Duck Hunt hadn't been seen in years. They were irrelevant to Nintendo as a company when Melee, Brawl and Smash 4 came out, Nintendo had little to no reason to bring them back besides fanservice/history celebration (and in the case of once they were veterans, being grandfathered in).

ThoughtfulWanderer · Jul 30, 2018

KMDP said:
What I'm saying is that, disregarding the "Retro Rep" thing, Game & Watch, Ice Climber, Kid Icarus, R.O.B and Duck Hunt hadn't been seen in years. They were irrelevant to Nintendo as a company when Melee, Brawl and Smash 4 came out, Nintendo had little to no reason to bring them back besides fanservice/history celebration (and in the case of once they were veterans, being grandfathered in).

It does seem like a double standard, doesn't it? Both cases have their reasoning, but it makes it seem like they don't want to take a risk with somebody who's old but not old enough and still unproven simply because they didn't already have the benefit of the best promotion possible: Smash.

It's a sight for sore eyes and it'll continue to be until they finally patch it up and include the fan favorites we've constantly shouted for, If they're still absent by DLC, we'll just continue to be loud and prove to them the audience and potential they have if they can't already see it themselves.

StormC · Jul 30, 2018

Xevious 1 said:
I am fully confident that the newcomers are going to ballot characters like Isaac, Geno, k.Rool, Ashley, Shantae, Banjo, Impa, Skull Kid, Simon, and Bandanna Dee as opposed to recent or NES/SNES characters. Sakurai has been really going for fanservice this time around and there is no way that ballot was just for Bayo.

So where does Inkling fit into this world view?

The only characters - first party anyway - that would be added primarily because of fan demand are probably K. Rool and Isaac. Characters like Bandana Dee and Ashley might have sizable fan demand but also represent modern installments of their franchises. Being popular is just a plus for them.

EricTheGamerman · Jul 30, 2018

The unfortunate reality is that even if they still don’t listen to fan requests, there isn’t much we can do. I’m sure I speak for several people when I say that we’re already sold on the game. Barring a cataclysmic event like cutting Ridley after revealing him, we’re going to probably buy. As will most fans and people who want to play Smash Bros. They’ve done too good of a job with this one marketing wise already, and even conceptually speaking.

I know some people have issues with how loudly people advocate for certain characters, but that’s just the reality. That’s the only chance we’ve got. And while there are bad ways of doing and good ways of doing it, I think the “irrelevant” community is only going to face more flak going forward if none of them get in this time. I’ve seen people already call King K Rool and Geno supporters delusional (Strangely enough, not Isaac though), I’d rather that not be a precedent set going forward.

KMDP · Jul 30, 2018

StormC said:
So where does Inkling fit into this world view?

Splatoon was incredibly successful (relative to the sales figures of the Wii U) and Sakurai probably didn't need the ballot to know they'd be a popular pick for Smash Ultimate.

StormC · Jul 30, 2018

KMDP said:
Splatoon was incredibly successful (relative to the sales figures of the Wii U) and Sakurai probably didn't need the ballot to know they'd be a popular pick for Smash Ultimate.

It isn't even about whether or not they're popular (although the success of Splatoon sorta goes hand in hand with that). They're the newest, biggest IP of Nintendo in recent years. It's like having Villager in Smash 4 or Olimar in Brawl. It's something that would happen even without "fan demand."

I'm sure the ballot will be significant for roster choices in this game but it's not going to read like a top 10 list from it.

True Blue Warrior · Jul 30, 2018

ThoughtfulWanderer said:
You can't disregard it because relevancy only applies to veterans when cuts have to be made. At the time they were chosen, they were relevant so it's not like we wouldn't have gotten them.

Ness's only game was released in 1994, several years before Smash 64, so even then he wasn't particularly recent even back then.

KMDP · Jul 30, 2018

True Blue Warrior said:
Ness's only game was released in 1994, several years before Smash 64, so even then he wasn't particularly recent even back then.

Not to mention that, had Mother 3 come out on the N64 as intended, Ness would have been replaced with Lucas in Melee.

StormC said:
It isn't even about whether or not they're popular (although the success of Splatoon sorta goes hand in hand with that). They're the newest, biggest IP of Nintendo in recent years. It's like having Villager in Smash 4 or Olimar in Brawl. It's something that would happen even without "fan demand."

I'm sure the ballot will be significant for roster choices in this game but it's not going to read like a top 10 list from it.

Yeah, that was kinda my point. :laugh:

ThoughtfulWanderer · Jul 30, 2018

True Blue Warrior said:
Ness's only game was released in 1994, several years before Smash 64, so even then he wasn't particularly recent even back then.

The series as a whole was relevant was my point. The decision to include Ness (A.K.A.: EarthBound content at all) had to have been fueled by the upcoming game, but since EB64 was in development hell at that time, Ness was going to be the only sensible pick. It reads like a special exception to the rule.

iam8bit · Jul 30, 2018

As unlikely as it is of being true, this leak actually gave me hope for Isaac. :laugh:

Especially:

As many have figured, the Smash Ballot was indeed used to plan Smash Bros Ultimate. However, the entire concept of the game is using the ballot as a center point. Sakurai is making newly relevant characters a very low priority, so don't expect characters like Decidueye, Spring Man, Rex and Pyra or Edelgard in the base roster, but they may very well be DLC.

Isaac was much, much more popular than Sakurai expected, especially in Europe, but not on par with Ridley or K Rool. This surprise popularity led to Sakurai making him high priority alongside K. Rool, Ridley and Inkling.

Of course, it's probably wishful thinking. But a guy can dream...

Falgor · Jul 30, 2018

Skyblade12 said:
Remember when the Alola starters were being revealed? We got Litten, and it was like "OMG, cute little fire kitty!". And then we were shown off Torracat, and it was even better. And then that concept art leaked, and we saw the Incineroar was the worst Pokémon ever designed.

But as soon as I saw the concept art leak, I KNEW that was what we were going to get. We wouldn't get a good evolution, or a cat at all. Just that monstrosity. I tried to deny it, I wrote off the leaked images as much as I could (though when Mallow was revealed after having been in the concept art, it pretty much finished it, I STILL wanted to deny it). But I knew.

I gotta say, about Incineroar I 200% agree with you! :laugh:

It's absolutely the worst Pokémon ever designed. Worst than that, this is a poor attempt to make YET ANOTHER Fire/Fighting type without clearly admitting it. He's got the closest possible type to Fighting, which is Dark, and he commonly uses Fighting type moves. He's bipedal for NO reason, looking at his previous forms.

But I've been off-topic for too long there, sorry. :drohmy:

About the whole "Smash is a giant ad", I agree wholeheartedly, this has to stop!
That reminds me of the made up rosters we made back in Smash 4. Those were cool, I should try to see if I still got mine.

ThoughtfulWanderer · Jul 30, 2018

iam8bit said:
As unlikely as it is of being true, this leak actually gave me hope for Isaac.

I've seen that before. Way too detailed and focused on Sakurai's thoughts to be real, but it does bring up an interesting question. Is there reason to believe that Isaac and Golden Sun may have noticeably higher popularity in Europe than any other region? Isaac seems to be loved most by American fans, and the games themselves seemed to fluctuate between selling best in America or Japan, but never Europe.

~ Valkyrie ~ · Jul 30, 2018

The way how Smash's selection of newcomers pretty much ignoring or C-listing fan faves from the middle history of Nintendo-games (probably most experimental and colorful) into forgettable summon roles is why I've slowly become less into the Smash-series compared to many general fans as a whole. I lost my keenness to these less popular/mainstream characters over time due this, mostly because I didn't know what could be there to keep the characters going due not receiving anything remotely new for their series, or outright have incomplete conclusion (Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment).

Glad to know I'm not alone with this observation though. Right now my whole interest on the series in the future will be hinging on if Sakurai will be allowing Smash Bros. to tap into Isaac or other fan favorites in it - otherwise I more or less will be knowing what I get in the future anyway, and it's not exciting me anymore.

DogManStar · Jul 30, 2018

Falgor said:
About the whole "Smash is a giant ad", I agree wholeheartedly, this has to stop!
That reminds me of the made up rosters we made back in Smash 4. Those were cool, I should try to see if I still got mine.

Also agree here. I still like the roster overall, but I feel disappointed that we usually seem to get the newest characters off the block and that relevance always seems to determine the roster. We already know for a fact that characters from series with no immediate future are typically lower priority, Sakurai has said as much. It's natural for the most recent characters to be higher priority, they have bigger advertising and popularity appeal. However, characters like Isaac are still clearly wanted by the community even though they aren't recent. I don't see why characters like that can't be included at least every once in a while, instead of never, which is how it is now.

Miifighters4Smash5 · Jul 30, 2018

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I've added you.

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Please Add Me; Since I ALSO Want to see Isaac in SSBU; Especially since He'd be like Ness Meets ANY Sword Fighter in the game; and with Psynergy Hands, and Vine Attacks and Ground/Rock Attacks

True Blue Warrior · Jul 30, 2018

Miifighters4Smash5 said:
Please Add Me; Since I ALSO Want to see Isaac in SSBU; Especially since He'd be like Ness Meets ANY Sword Fighter in the game; and with Psynergy Hands, and Vine Attacks and Ground/Rock Attacks

Done

_Sheik
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Malkior7 · Jul 30, 2018

Smash site updated with fake smash orb so looks like the leak being talked about is fake.

Isaac is still in the clear for now

Isaac: Venus Adept · Jul 30, 2018

Can you imagine the backlash if K.Rool became an assist trophy. Thank god it's fake

NoOtherPersona · Jul 30, 2018

Isaac: Venus Adept said:
Can you imagine the backlash if K.Rool became an assist trophy. Thank god it's fake

What leak was it?

KMDP · Jul 30, 2018

Malkior7 said:
Smash site updated with fake smash orb so looks like the leak being talked about is fake.

Isaac is still in the clear for now

Isaac lives to get his chance another day.

NoOtherPersona said:
What leak was it?

One from... uh... GameFAQs, I think?

Said that Mr Game & Watch would be the next Character Update on the blog, and that K. Rool and Isaac (among others) would be Assists.

NoOtherPersona · Jul 30, 2018

KMDP said:
Isaac lives to get his chance another day.

One from... uh... GameFAQs, I think?

Said that Mr Game & Watch would be the next Character Update on the blog, and that K. Rool and Isaac (among others) would be Assists.

Oh okay I mean that would be a bone headed move if they made that choice

N3ON · Jul 30, 2018

Too many leaks to get invested in ones without any credibility.

Once more content gets confirmed and we can narrow down the pool, that's when things will get interesting.

Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

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