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Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

Q-Long

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I firmly believe we have three unique newcomers remaining and I'm still sure Isaac will be one of them. It just seems like everyone else that holds a candle to his popularity is third party. But, I believe he'd be one of the very last reveals, so even if there's something in October, I just think it'll be our obligatory new Pokémon.

As someone who hasn't played Golden Sun, I played some games in Norfair with the Golden Sun music and that was seriously sick. Is there any stand out music from Golden Sun I should catch up on?
There should be a playlist of the battle themes on Youtube. Always a good place to start. It really captures how fast paced the gameplay is.

Additionally its pretty weird how they put that song on Norfair. I know a lot of people say Sakurai doesn't really know Golden Sun or isn't aware of it, but putting it there due to its resemblance to Magma Rock indicates he at least knows something or team members do. Though I guess out of all the stages its the most "Golden Sun" aside from maybe the FE Arena now.

This is irrefutable proof that the Super Crown should never become an item in Smash.
But I want to see my waifu, aka Master Handette.

And I have always wanted a humanoid version of ROB (Star Fox 64 doesn't count :b), though I wanted a male version, though Robette would be pretty fascinating.
 

ThoughtfulWanderer

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But I want to see my waifu, aka Master Handette.

And I have always wanted a humanoid version of ROB (Star Fox 64 doesn't count :b), though I wanted a male version, though Robette would be pretty fascinating.
A sick part of me wants it just to watch the world burn and the Internet collectively lose its mind, but there's already enough rule 63 on it for one day. I may or may not want to see Master Hand draped with a bow and dress now though.
 

jweb23

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Man everybody stays sleeping on Jenna’s battle theme! Probably due to only appearing early on until Felix joins the party in Lost Age. Definitely worth a listen! Can’t wait for the hopeful remix in Ultimate!

 

Jupiter Ivan

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Man everybody stays sleeping on Jenna’s battle theme! Probably due to only appearing early on until Felix joins the party in Lost Age. Definitely worth a listen! Can’t wait for the hopeful remix in Ultimate!

Yeah, it’s good, but only appears for a few battles in the beginning.

That being said I don’t think it’s as good as many other GS tracks that I would like to see remixed more than Jenna’s theme. Although maybe a remix is just what it needs.
 

Mehdow

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Man everybody stays sleeping on Jenna’s battle theme! Probably due to only appearing early on until Felix joins the party in Lost Age. Definitely worth a listen! Can’t wait for the hopeful remix in Ultimate!

Wow I totally forgot about that one. It was the first song I put in my first mp3 more than 10 years ago. Now I'm nostalgic hah
 

Machete

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There should be a playlist of the battle themes on Youtube. Always a good place to start. It really captures how fast paced the gameplay is.

Additionally its pretty weird how they put that song on Norfair. I know a lot of people say Sakurai doesn't really know Golden Sun or isn't aware of it, but putting it there due to its resemblance to Magma Rock indicates he at least knows something or team members do. Though I guess out of all the stages its the most "Golden Sun" aside from maybe the FE Arena now.


But I want to see my waifu, aka Master Handette.

And I have always wanted a humanoid version of ROB (Star Fox 64 doesn't count :b), though I wanted a male version, though Robette would be pretty fascinating.
Hey, wasn't Isaac the last unlocked Assist Trophy in Brawl? I always took that as him acknowledging Isaac was a cut above the rest.

Some fine-ass music, btw. Can't wait to see how the Smash team remix some of those.
 

Q-Long

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Man everybody stays sleeping on Jenna’s battle theme! Probably due to only appearing early on until Felix joins the party in Lost Age. Definitely worth a listen! Can’t wait for the hopeful remix in Ultimate!

i love jenna but the first thing i think of when hearing this theme is ants with boxing gloves
 

Fire Tactician

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Is the Smash Blog posts' character slowdown actually exciting anyone else? When Sakurai said that he was showing off characters too quickly, do you think he might have meant on the blog? This might give some more hope for a slightly larger roster than those who are saying doom and gloom and lowballing with just two!
 

Metocles

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Hey, wasn't Isaac the last unlocked Assist Trophy in Brawl? I always took that as him acknowledging Isaac was a cut above the rest.

Some fine-*** music, btw. Can't wait to see how the Smash team remix some of those.
Isaac has always been an oddity for the smash speculation scene. Realistically speaking, there has never been anything holding him back when you compare him and his series to all of the other characters that have become playable in the games. Especially the first party ones. That's another reason we want to see him here because it's the only way we will every have finality to all of this. Sakurai has never talked about Golden Sun or Isaac so we've always been driving blindly, and that's the only reason we can even presume that he's not been playable. Not that Sakurai hates GS or anything; that would be foolish. Just that when he gets to decide the roster, he passes over GS for some criteria that doesn't make sense from what we see.

I think even to this day the people that write him off don't even realize that's he's 1st party Nintendo. He sticks out like a sore thumb. It's hard to let go of that feeling of righteous indignation about the whole thing.
 

Klimax

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Banjo & Kazooie vs Geno
Lloyd Irving vs Isaac
That's an interesting day, I voted for the bros Geno and Isaac, I hope to see them winning !
 

TempestSurge

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Isaac has always been an oddity for the smash speculation scene. Realistically speaking, there has never been anything holding him back when you compare him and his series to all of the other characters that have become playable in the games. Especially the first party ones. That's another reason we want to see him here because it's the only way we will every have finality to all of this. Sakurai has never talked about Golden Sun or Isaac so we've always been driving blindly, and that's the only reason we can even presume that he's not been playable. Not that Sakurai hates GS or anything; that would be foolish. Just that when he gets to decide the roster, he passes over GS for some criteria that doesn't make sense from what we see.

I think even to this day the people that write him off don't even realize that's he's 1st party Nintendo. He sticks out like a sore thumb. It's hard to let go of that feeling of righteous indignation about the whole thing.
After reading a past interview from Sakurai regarding some of the Smash 4 newcomers, he mentions that MegaMan and Villager typically wouldn't be the types of characters in a smash game because of their gimmicks in their movesets (and I'm sure this would apply to Shulk as well).

So that tells me that Isaac was a no go for Brawl from the get go, Isaac would definitely be the very definition of a gimmick character if Sakurai was incorporating djinns and magic/utility psynergies.

Skip to Smash 4, where there were two games being developed at the same time, one a handheld. The 3ds took priority over character reps. Two time vet Ice Climbers got cut for not working on the 3ds. Pokemon Trainers gimmick was done with altogether, Lucas got on the chopping block cause his final smash was causing problems etc. If we assume Isaac got cut for similar reasons regarding the 3ds, no sense in putting work into Isaac if he was only going to work on one system anyways, like with Ice Climbers.

That coupled with Smash 4's newcomers being more promo heavy than normal. I'm pretty sure Isaac's competition was Shulk, both blonde hair, blue eyes jrpg protags with their last game released in the same year. But they chose to go with making Xenoblade into a mainstay series, X released a year after Smash 4 and the new 3ds version of Chronicles released again. Jumping straight into Golden Sun 4, a continuation of a previous story may have been considered more of a hard sell than starting with a fresh cast of characters with their own story. Of course this goes without saying, Shulk's gimmick worked on both versions, Isaac's hypothetical moveset gimmick didn't. So of course if Shulk was chosen, his series gets to continue to live.

Though now, nothing should be holding Isaac back aside from Sakurai himself finding him unrealizable or something. There's only been one new first party franchise (Inklings) no newcomer so far has a crazy gimmick movesets (like how Sakurai said Palutena was one of the hardest characters to make with all her customs and while a vet, it was stated Lucario took a while year to create cause of his aura mechanic).

No matter how you slice it, Golden Sun is one of Nintendo's notable big franchises still unrepped, Isaac is one of the most popular first party requests still not in, his popularity has stood the test of time despite his assist getting cut in 4 and the last Golden Sun game going on eight years now. Sakurai's using the fan ballot, a lot of heavily requested characters are already in. Isaac literally has one foot in the door already with his assist model to work off of and please can we be spared from the impending you know what storm upon Isaac's deconfirmation, let Ultimate finally be Isaac's game.
 
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Q-Long

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After reading a past interview from Sakurai regarding some of the Smash 4 newcomers, he mentions that MegaMan and Villager typically wouldn't be the types of characters in a smash game because of their gimmicks in their movesets (and I'm sure this would apply to Shulk as well).
.
Its kind of strange he says this because MM works very well in Marvel Vs. Capcom. MM definitely had a lot to draw from... its weird cause Samus never melee'd in her games when she made her debut in Smash 64 and I'm pretty sure Sakurai is referring to the fact MM's regular weapon is his blaster.
 

Machete

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Isaac has always been an oddity for the smash speculation scene. Realistically speaking, there has never been anything holding him back when you compare him and his series to all of the other characters that have become playable in the games. Especially the first party ones. That's another reason we want to see him here because it's the only way we will every have finality to all of this. Sakurai has never talked about Golden Sun or Isaac so we've always been driving blindly, and that's the only reason we can even presume that he's not been playable. Not that Sakurai hates GS or anything; that would be foolish. Just that when he gets to decide the roster, he passes over GS for some criteria that doesn't make sense from what we see.

I think even to this day the people that write him off don't even realize that's he's 1st party Nintendo. He sticks out like a sore thumb. It's hard to let go of that feeling of righteous indignation about the whole thing.
I remember back in the K.Rool thread a lot of people were worried that unlike Ridley's, K.Rool's popularity had never been brought up in the past other than the Mii costume, and you see how that turned out. The fact Isaac hasn't been brought up isn't that much of a problem, and I think he's the kind of super popular character who, if he wasn't gonna be playable, would've been acknowledged already in some way. I am glad Sakurai at least disconfirmed Midna so early or I'd have been crushed when finding out the truth, and I am sure he's aware Isaac is too popular not to be on people's radar.

The only alternative I can think of is that Isaac isn't in the game in any way whatsoever, which seems unlikely given how all out on the fanservice Ultimate is. They even brought back Scizor and Gray Fox, which means bringing back assist characters isn't out of the question, so if he wasn't playable, he would've at least been made an Assist Trophy again.

That said, does anyone know if Golden Sun was, like, disproportionately popular in Europe or something? I am amazed that literally everyone I know with a GBA played Golden Sun(except me, i am ashamed), and knows Isaac and wants him in the game. He certainly doesn't feel like the niche character so many people claim he is.
 
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Mehdow

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That said, does anyone know if Golden Sun was, like, disproportionately popular in Europe or something? I am amazed that literally everyone I know with a GBA played Golden Sun(except me, i am ashamed), and knows Isaac and wants him in the game. He certainly doesn't feel like the niche character so many people claim he is.
Today a coworker saw me playing GS Dark Dawn, asked me about the game and when I said "It's called Golden Sun" he remembered the game because he played it on GBA.

And I just saw in a sell/buy app a girl selling her entire collection of GBA games.....that were 5 Bratz / Petz games and Golden Sun.

It's pretty well known here in Spain.
 

PurpleStrings16

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Still catching on 60+ pages since I went on holiday but I will answer this.

1) Golden Sun 1+2
2) Kingdom Hearts 2
3) Final Fantasy IX
4) Majora's Mask
5) Xenoblade Chronicles
6) Megaman X
7) Live A Live
8) Super Mario Galaxy
9) Nier
10) No More Heroes 2

I could have put tons of games but those ten just were incredible for me :)
I really can’t promise this is accurate since it is on the spot. I also have to be broad or I’ll fry my brain thinking too much. I really love the following games.

In no particular order:

1. Banjo-Kazooie/Banjo Tooie
2. Pokemon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum
3. Wario Land
4. Super Smash Bros. (1, 2, 3, 4, probably 5)
5. Fire Emblem Awakening
6. Overwatch
7. Bloons Tower Defense (5, 6)
8. Fallout (3, New Vegas, 4)
9. Punch Out!! (NES, Wii)
10. Pac-Man World 2
 

Dionaea_floridensis

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A friend of mine buys and sells retro consoles as a side business. He mostly sells to nostalgic college students in UF and Tampa. Everytime he gets a GBA his customers want Golden Sun, Advance Wars, and that Mother 3 fan cart.
I've heard that GS was really popular in Latin America, and Florida has a ton of Latin Americans... maybe there's a correlation there?
 

Fire Tactician

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It's interesting that lots of people are saying that much of Isaac's love comes from EU... especially considering that Bayonetta was supposedly put into Smash 4 to please the EU market. That bodes pretty nicely for a certain silent protagonist...
 

LegendOfDragoon

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It's interesting that lots of people are saying that much of Isaac's love comes from EU... especially considering that Bayonetta was supposedly put into Smash 4 to please the EU market. That bodes pretty nicely for a certain silent protagonist...
Yeah, I think if Blog Theory is correct and we have 4-7 new characters it could look like this:

Incineroar
Isaac
Geno
BWD/Marx/Magalor

Ken
Shadow
Black Shadow/Dixie
Then they have an easy graphic to show off the ballot choices

Kirby Rep: Japan Choice
Ridley: USA Choice
Isaac: EU choice

King K. Rool: Everywhere choice

then as a footnote underneath is Geno: Sakurai Choice.
 

GoodGrief741

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Yeah, I think if Blog Theory is correct and we have 4-7 new characters it could look like this:

Incineroar
Isaac
Geno
BWD/Marx/Magalor

Ken
Shadow
Black Shadow/Dixie
Then they have an easy graphic to show off the ballot choices

Kirby Rep: Japan Choice
Ridley: USA Choice
Isaac: EU choice

King K. Rool: Everywhere choice

then as a footnote underneath is Geno: Sakurai Choice.
What an awesome roste that would be.
 

TempestSurge

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It's interesting that lots of people are saying that much of Isaac's love comes from EU... especially considering that Bayonetta was supposedly put into Smash 4 to please the EU market. That bodes pretty nicely for a certain silent protagonist...
I'm pretty convinced Isaac placed highly for Europe in the ballot maybe even above Bayonetta but he'd obviously be an 'unrealizable' character if his assist was cut in the first place for the 3ds limitations. Even then it seems like K. Rool may have been the winner of the ballot but him needing a new model from scratch and instead was held off for Ultimate, I'm hoping Isaac was held off for base roster of Ultimate as well.
 

Organization XIII

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Isaac: EU choice
Can someone tell me where this idea that Isaac is big in Europe came from? Like I know he's popular everywhere but GS sold the worst in Europe so wouldn't he be more popular elsewhere?

I'm pretty convinced Isaac placed highly for Europe in the ballot maybe even above Bayonetta but he'd obviously be an 'unrealizable' character if his assist was cut in the first place for the 3ds limitations. Even then it seems like K. Rool may have been the winner of the ballot but him needing a new model from scratch and instead was held off for Ultimate, I'm hoping Isaac was held off for base roster of Ultimate as well.
It didn't matter how well he did on the ballot or if he was cut due to limitations for 4 there was no chance for DLC as they weren't going to add any new Nintendo newcomers and even the winner of the ballot was decided before the ballot concluded.
 
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LegendOfDragoon

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Little off current topic, but today's reddit duel got me playing this old gem

https://youtu.be/rcL3kAtbcYE

Can someone tell me where this idea that Isaac is big in Europe came from? Like I know he's popular everywhere but GS sold the worst in Europe so wouldn't he be more popular elsewhere?


It didn't matter how well he did on the ballot or if he was cut due to limitations for 4 there was no chance for DLC as they weren't going to add any new Nintendo newcomers and even the winner of the ballot was decided before the ballot concluded.
It's just always where he performs on fan smash polls and stuff like that. Even if it didn't sell as much it made an impact I suppose.
 

TempestSurge

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Can someone tell me where this idea that Isaac is big in Europe came from? Like I know he's popular everywhere but GS sold the worst in Europe so wouldn't he be more popular elsewhere?


It didn't matter how well he did on the ballot or if he was cut due to limitations for 4 there was no chance for DLC as they weren't going to add any new Nintendo newcomers and even the winner of the ballot was decided before the ballot concluded.
Except that's hindsight talk. No one went into the ballot knowing in advance that no Nintendo newcomers would be added or that the winner was chosen before the ballot ended lol. Also that's why I mentioned that Isaac would be an unrealizable character for 4, I've been parroting the 3ds limitations in this thread for the reason his assist has been cut for a while now, it makes way more sense vs him being cut cause he's irrelevant or Sakurai hates him. Regardless the ballot was important for Isaac to do well in, even with the winner chosen in advance, since that's what Sakurai is using to help him pick roster newcomers this time around.
 

BravadoMan_13

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Organization XIII

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Except that's hindsight talk. No one went into the ballot knowing in advance that no Nintendo newcomers would be added or that the winner was chosen before the ballot ended lol. Also that's why I mentioned that Isaac would be an unrealizable character for 4, I've been parroting the 3ds limitations in this thread for the reason his assist has been cut for a while now, it makes way more sense vs him being cut cause he's irrelevant or Sakurai hates him. Regardless the ballot was important for Isaac to do well in, even with the winner chosen in advance, since that's what Sakurai is using to help him pick roster newcomers this time around.
I mean it just sounded like you weren't aware of Bayonetta's circumstances and were trying to come up with reasons K Rool and Isaac weren't in 4 which was simply they were never going to be added as DLC. The ballot was clearly only for Ultimate which most did know that it would be a big factor for the next Smash game. So yeah I wasn't saying the ballot didn't matter just that for getting him into 4 his circumstances didn't matter because he was never on the table. Thankfully we didn't know that at the time or we wouldn't be the most likely character to be added.
 

Fire Tactician

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I'm pretty convinced Isaac placed highly for Europe in the ballot maybe even above Bayonetta but he'd obviously be an 'unrealizable' character if his assist was cut in the first place for the 3ds limitations. Even then it seems like K. Rool may have been the winner of the ballot but him needing a new model from scratch and instead was held off for Ultimate, I'm hoping Isaac was held off for base roster of Ultimate as well.
If wall collisions made his AT not work, I could imagine that they'd just take that move out and make it something that is fair in actual gameplay. Just like how Isabelle no longer can just summon fruit because it's unfair, Isaac summoning an immovable wall could have just been turned into a distance grab, a projectile, or a weak push (like Water Gun). Meanwhile, putting that much effort into changing his AT to do something it didn't do in the last appearance may not have been something that they wanted to do.

I don't doubt his popularity in EU, but I have no way of claiming or testing whether he could have beaten Bayonetta or not. It's anyone's guess at this point.
 

FantastiqueFran

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Me yesterday: "Sigh... Look's like Sora's going to win..." (・-・。)

Me today: "I stand corrected." (・0・。)

I'm glad I was wrong, though. Golden Boi managed to beat Sora. Now the real challenge begins!

Sorry, Lloyd! I like you, but Isaac deserves this spot!
 

Pwnapplez

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At this point, with the GS trademark. I am just happy to see GS come back as anything at this point in time.

Ill take a game over Smash. However, Isaac in Smash would be the icing on the cake
 

TempestSurge

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I mean it just sounded like you weren't aware of Bayonetta's circumstances and were trying to come up with reasons K Rool and Isaac weren't in 4 which was simply they were never going to be added as DLC. The ballot was clearly only for Ultimate which most did know that it would be a big factor for the next Smash game. So yeah I wasn't saying the ballot didn't matter just that for getting him into 4 his circumstances didn't matter because he was never on the table. Thankfully we didn't know that at the time or we wouldn't be the most likely character to be added.
Well I did hear about some of the things regarding Bayonetta and her data being put in early into the ballot and whatnot, but that's how it is I suppose, but I know she has her fans that voted as well. Sakurai himself said Bayonetta was the most realizable character out of the ballot. I take that to mean that even if characters like K. Rool, Isaac, or Snake placed higher than her, she was chosen for having less issues to work with. That's why I was coming up with reasons for K. Rool and Isaac, it's speculations on what may have made them unrealizable to Sakurai at the time.
 

QcSlayer

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From the poll Isaac is the N.1 most wanted first party on r/SmashBros whit is 390K subscribers...

Geez if only GS got a trademark renewal, I wonder which new ip will join Nintendo all-star next.
 
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Organization XIII

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Well I did hear about some of the things regarding Bayonetta and her data being put in early into the ballot and whatnot, but that's how it is I suppose, but I know she has her fans that voted as well. Sakurai himself said Bayonetta was the most realizable character out of the ballot. I take that to mean that even if characters like K. Rool, Isaac, or Snake placed higher than her, she was chosen for having less issues to work with. That's why I was coming up with reasons for K. Rool and Isaac, it's speculations on what may have made them unrealizable to Sakurai at the time.
Well, she was added 2 weeks into the ballot. That's not even considering the amount of time it took before then to negotiate her rights and get all the legal contracts and such written and signed and all that jazz. She was clearly chosen. What it actually was is they had a short list of characters they wanted to add and Nintendo investing in her series and making her a staple would help recoup the loss they had in the series. At least that's what I thought even back when she was announced.
 

Jupiter Ivan

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Another thing regarding Isaac vs Bayo in terms of all this is that Isaac goes against what seemed to be Sm4sh’s core philosophy.

Relevancy and importance.

Isaac was/is neither of these. So honestly it didn’t matter how much he was voted for during the ballot in terms of Sm4sh DLC. He was NEVER going to make it in. Bayo on the other hand... was an easy way to advertise Bayonetta 2. Simple as that.

That’s all different in Ultimate, however. Relevancy has been thrown out the window and fan favorites are put in. I don’t want to sound too doom and gloom, but Ultimate just may be Isaac’s last chance at getting into Smash unless Nintendo just decides to revive the franchise.
 

TappyBat

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From the poll Isaac is the N.1 most wanted first party on r/SmashBros whit is 390K subscribers...

Geez if only GS got a trademark renewal, I wonder which new ip will join Nintendo all-star next.
but it did. twice.
 

Lonodel

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It still grinds my gears that Bayo didn't win the ballot but nintendo acted like she did...
 

Xenigma

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Quite happy about how that Reddit poll is going. We're one Isaac win away from a top three of Isaac, Geno, and B&K, which are my top three picks for Ultimate. I'm not sure we can beat Lloyd since he seems to have a strong fanbase over on the subreddit, but these are the sorts of tangible results that could really help these characters' chances over at Nintendo if any of them are in the running for DLC.

(The poll link again if anyone needs it)
 
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