Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

But K. Rool hasn’t been in his series in a decade.

People will still know of him though is what I'm saying. It's a lot harder to not be aware of K. Rool because that series as a whole is still getting new games and re-releases on the newer systems. Those bring the old fans back into being vocal about him and newer fans will become exposed to him either through those fans or the ports of the original trilogy to VC/SNES Classic if not the spin-offs that have him in it.

Isaac really has only had the Brawl AT, one mixed DS title, and quiet VC ports on Wii U since his own prime. If he made a cameo in Mario Tennis or Golf, then maybe it's a different story.

 

[KMDP]

But K. Rool hasn’t been in his series in a decade.

I was about to try to rebuff your point, so I did some research and found out you're right. King K. Rool's last major appearance outside of Smash was in Donkey Kong Barrel Blast, on the Wii, in 2007/08!

Isaac's last appearance was in 2010. So arguably he'd have the better recency factor going for him.

EDIT: made a weird typo ("reason" for "research")... hey, still works, I guess.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

I was about to try to rebuff your point, so I did some research and found out you're right. King K. Rool's last major appearance outside of Smash was in Donkey Kong Barrel Blast, on the Wii, in 2007/08!

Isaac's last appearance was in 2010. So arguably he'd have the better recency factor going for him.

EDIT: made a weird typo ("reason" for "research")... hey, still works, I guess.

I was never arguing raw dates because I know K. Rool has been absent for longer. That was never my point, and I'm not trying to argue against other Isaac fans or downplay his chances.

K. Rool still has more of a legacy and impact that still make him more "relevant" today, along with his series. That's why he's more popular than Isaac and is seen as more likely. That's all I'm saying here. "Relevance" to fans (who are seemingly the driving force of this game's newcomers), not "recency" to gaming.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

You know, Geno wasn't taken remotely seriously by people outside of his fan base until he got a mii costume.

Ridley was too big.

Snake had little chance of returning because of the situation Konami was in recently.

The bottom line is if those fan bases can deal with a lack of belief we can too, and we can be stronger for it.

 

[KMDP]

You know, Geno wasn't taken remotely seriously by people outside of his fan base until he got a mii costume.

Ridley was too big.

Snake had little chance of returning because of the situation Konami was in recently.

The bottom line is if those fan bases can deal with a lack of belief we can too, and we can be stronger for it.

The impossible is impossible until it isn't.

I was never arguing raw dates because I know K. Rool has been absent for longer. That was never my point, and I'm not trying to argue against other Isaac fans or downplay his chances.

K. Rool still has more of a legacy and impact that still make him more "relevant" today, along with his series. That's why he's more popular than Isaac and is seen as more likely. That's all I'm saying here. "Relevance" to fans (who are seemingly the driving force of this game's newcomers), not "recency" to gaming.

I get it.
K. Rool, at the very least, has been in more games (and a Cartoon!) than Isaac. And is, when comparing the twos legacy, more 'deserving' (if that's even a factor worth mentioning).

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

K. Rool, at the very least, has been in more games (and a Cartoon!) than Isaac. And is, when comparing the twos legacy, more 'deserving' (if that's even a factor worth mentioning).

Yeah, that's all it is. K. Rool's legacy and resume is stronger, but it doesn't mean he would be any better or worse a character than Isaac. A lot of us have grown to hate "deserving" as a reason. Obviously there are no-brainers who make no sense to not have in, but you could have a character in for game representation, promotion, a unique/fun moveset, or simply being a likable character and those are all valid reasons to justify adding them.

Because once they do get added, they have a fanbase that will always want to have them in from then on.

 

[Diddy Kong]

King K.Rool is still main villain of an excisting franchise. Isaac unfortunately is not. The first Donkey Kong Country is also part of the SNES Mini games, and is still very popular to this day. The two can't really be compared.

 

[KMDP]

Yeah, that's all it is. K. Rool's legacy and resume is stronger, but it doesn't mean he would be any better or worse a character than Isaac. A lot of us have grown to hate "deserving" as a reason. Obviously there are no-brainers who make no sense to not have in, but you could have a character in for game representation, promotion,

No-brainers like Wario in Melee (c;'mon Sakura, really? }

a unique/fun moveset

Unique and fun movesets I can think of off the top of my head (caveat, they can't already be Assist Trophies, so Knuckles is out):

• Isaac
• King K. Rool
• Dixie Kong (I like the idea from the Smash Ultimate Discussion of being a hybrid of Donkey and Diddy Kong)
• Sephiroth (were he to play anything like Dissidia, he'd swing his (massive) sword 'slowly' but have large, multi-hitting kamaitachi effects, his Final Smash is so obvious it isn't worth mentioning. )
• Tifa (has some overlap with Incineroar)
• Warrior of Light
• Crono
• Agumon
• Shadow
• Tails
• Amy Rose
• Sceptile (though he'd probably end up similar to my Sephiroth proposal above; though that's because the Gen III Leaf Blade animation makes me think that way)
• Decidueye
• Incineroar (see above)
• Lana (we don't have a true Barrier Warrior in Smash, to my knowledge; also, summoning Cuccos + a giant Cucco as a Final Smash)
• HW Impa
• Hector (an Axe-wielding Fire Emblem character, though they should really go with Charlotte for sex appeal and recency, ignore that Edelgard behind the curtain!)
• Phoenix Wright (see MvC)
• Simon Belmont
• Ryu Hayabusa (we have two Roys so a name's not a barrier to entry)
• Nightmare [Soul Calibur] (a giant sword user like Ike and Cloud, with really hefty swings (and not like the physics defiance of the other two ), who recovers health when he hits you, could be a niche fun thing).

I actually think moveset potential might be a barrier for entry for Ashley, if anyone, (and was probably a barrier for Bomberman, who has one thing he does, and he does do it well), since Sakurai seems to want move away from coming up with new fighting styles wholesale.

, or simply being a likable character and those are all valid reasons to justify adding them.

Everyone I listed above is also likeable (except my joke suggestion, who's an acquired taste)!

Because once they do get added, they have a fanbase that will always want to have them in from then on.

Very, very true. Which is why we are where we are today.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Isaac amiibo?

I wish so badly man. The saddest thing about Golden Sun is the lack of awesome official merchandise it could've have. Having an amiibo of Isaac would be so amazing

 

[KMDP]

The saddest thing about Golden Sun is the lack of awesome official merchandise

Djinn plushies. Make you really sad.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If it's any consolation, speculators have been caught off-guard by so I wouldn't be surprised if the RTC thread only managed to get like two or three characters wholly correct. I mean, Takamaru was disconfirmed and he was seen as one of the three most likely characters.

 

[KMDP]

I'm currently expanding upon my "unique and fun" post from above. I might post it to the main Ultimate board when it's done, because I think that kind of thing might be a good talking point.

 

[Deleted member]

Comic of the Day!

The Halt Gem really had the potential to be OP as ****.

 

[Skyblade12]

Comic of the Day!

The Halt Gem really had the potential to be OP as ****.

It really did. I'm kind of sad that there's no use for it in Lost Age or Dark Dawn.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Djinn plushies. Make you really sad.

I thought those were fan made

 

[KMDP]

I thought those were fan made

I was saying that we don't have any official ones.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I was saying that we don't have any official ones.

Sorry, my bad

 

[Eagle]

When you guys played Golden Sun, did you mix and match Djinn to change classes? I actually like the idea of a custom class system, but having to put different elemental Djinns onto the Adepts was too uncomfortable to me I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'm a bit OCD. I'm replaying GS now and I see I've missed out on a pretty big game mechanic.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

When you guys played Golden Sun, did you mix and match Djinn to change classes? I actually like the idea of a custom class system, but having to put different elemental Djinns onto the Adepts was too uncomfortable to me I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'm a bit OCD. I'm replaying GS now and I see I've missed out on a pretty big game mechanic.

That's the thing I love about the class system, it allows you to go all out with finding the right combination of stats that you want and giving different psynergy to each character. Sometimes I just had fun experimenting with the stats just for the fun of it. It makes the combat way more unique and special

 

[KMDP]

When you guys played Golden Sun, did you mix and match Djinn to change classes? I actually like the idea of a custom class system, but having to put different elemental Djinns onto the Adepts was too uncomfortable to me I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'm a bit OCD. I'm replaying GS now and I see I've missed out on a pretty big game mechanic.

Well, when I was younger, I was too young and didn't understand the mechanic, so I just whacked all the 'right' Djinn on the 'right' people and summon nuked every day.
When I replayed it a few years ago, I actually experimented with the system. (Hah! "Experimented", I used a guide.)

Speaking of Djinn, I wonder if there's a way to incorporate the Set/Standby Djinn mechanic is Isaac's moveset?

 

[Skyblade12]

Well, when I was younger, I was too young and didn't understand the mechanic, so I just whacked all the 'right' Djinn on the 'right' people and summon nuked every day.
When I replayed it a few years ago, I actually experimented with the system. (Hah! "Experimented", I used a guide.)

Speaking of Djinn, I wonder if there's a way to incorporate the Set/Standby Djinn mechanic is Isaac's moveset?

I've thought of a couple was to use Set/Standby/Summon in his moveset. Inkling actually made it even easier to do. Each of his B Moves are a Djinn. Using them Unleashes the Djinn to Standby. Pressing B while shielding will Summon them back to you, just like Inkling's ink recovery. The more Djinn you have Set, the more powerful Summon becomes. But remember, if you use the same move a second time in a row, you'll Set the Djinn back to you, which gives you a whiff on the attack moves, and a much weaker recovery (like non-Limit Climhazzard).

And, yeah, experimentation is fun. But I tend to revert to the basic classes during boss fights.

 

[KMDP]

I've thought of a couple was to use Set/Standby/Summon in his moveset. Inkling actually made it even easier to do. Each of his B Moves are a Djinn. Using them Unleashes the Djinn to Standby. Pressing B while shielding will Summon them back to you, just like Inkling's ink recovery. The more Djinn you have Set, the more powerful Summon becomes. But remember, if you use the same move a second time in a row, you'll Set the Djinn back to you, which gives you a whiff on the attack moves, and a much weaker recovery (like non-Limit Climhazzard).

What I want for Isaac's recovery is Megiddo, I don't care if it's a Fire move.

And, yeah, experimentation is fun. But I tend to revert to the basic classes during boss fights.

I'd argue the mixed class sets like Samurai are so strong and versatile that you can just not summon, just put the 'required' Djinn (like, say, Ground/Flash/Ember and other useful Djinn) where they need to be to not screw over your class set and psynergy pool if you need to Summon.

 

[Billybae10K]

When you guys played Golden Sun, did you mix and match Djinn to change classes? I actually like the idea of a custom class system, but having to put different elemental Djinns onto the Adepts was too uncomfortable to me I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'm a bit OCD. I'm replaying GS now and I see I've missed out on a pretty big game mechanic.

I was always a vanilla kinda guy. Give the right Djinn to the right adept and summon summon summon. It seems I've definitely been missing out on some different classes.

 

[KMDP]

I was always a vanilla kinda guy. Give the right Djinn to the right adept and summon summon summon. It seems I've definitely been missing out on some different classes.

The Djinn mechanic makes for good replay value, especially for newbies.

Play the game(s) once with "Like Elemental" class builds, then if you like the game(s), play 'em again, this time experimenting.

 

[Eagle]

It just felt wrong to have the wrong element on an adept. When the game gives you the item that grants douse it has to go on Mia. I'd feel too taken out of it if Garet was using douse.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I was about to try to rebuff your point, so I did some research and found out you're right. King K. Rool's last major appearance outside of Smash was in Donkey Kong Barrel Blast, on the Wii, in 2007/08!

Isaac's last appearance was in 2010. So arguably he'd have the better recency factor going for him.

EDIT: made a weird typo ("reason" for "research")... hey, still works, I guess.

Wait, he was in Barrel Blast? Then why tf isn’t Nintendo still using him? I thought there were some kind of rights issues with Rare.

 

[KMDP]

Wait, he was in Barrel Blast? Then why tf isn’t Nintendo still using him? I thought there were some kind of rights issues with Rare.

Apparently he was an unlockable character. As for why Nintendo don't use him? Maybe the developers just don't like his design. I'd say that's too petty a reason, but anything's possible.

 

[Deleted member]

Apparently he was an unlockable character. As for why Nintendo don't use him? Maybe the developers just don't like his design. I'd say that's too petty a reason, but anything's possible.

I think it was because Retro wanted to do their own thing in the series and, this, wanted to make their own villains. Plus, it's not like they disregard K. Rool entirely. After all, Tiki Tong has a swollen eye, and Lord Fredrick pretty much incorporates all three boss fights (helmet charge = running attack, horn summoning ice dragons = blunderbuss unleashing elemental attacks, hiding in background = Nautilus battle).

You do have to remember when they made the Prime series, they decided to add their own lore with Phazon, what it is, where it came from, and how it destroys lives. Shoot, we even got to see the Space Pirates home World.

When game studios work on an intellectual property that wasn't originally theirs, they like to add stuff to it. Most of the time, it's disastrous, but they made it work.

 

[KMDP]

I think it was because Retro wanted to do their own thing in the series and, this, wanted to make their own villains. Plus, it's not like they disregard K. Rool entirely. After all, Tiki Tong has a swollen eye, and Lord Fredrick pretty much incorporates all three boss fights (helmet charge = running attack, horn summoning ice dragons = blunderbuss unleashing elemental attacks, hiding in background = Nautilus battle).

You do have to remember when they made the Prime series, they decided to add their own lore with Phazon, what it is, where it came from, and how it destroys lives. Shoot, we even got to see the Space Pirates home World.

When game studios work on an intellectual property that wasn't originally theirs, they like to add stuff to it. Most of the time, it's disastrous, but they made it work.

With the K. Rool thing, I was referring more to Nintendo's treatment of him. Not Retro.
Nintendo just ceased production of DKC for whatever reason, then Retro got hold of it and rightfully did their own thing.

 

[Deleted member]

Huge King K. Rool supporter myself but his chances are just as good as Isaac's I think both. Should be regarded as having a good chance.

 

[Organization XIII]

Wait, he was in Barrel Blast? Then why tf isn’t Nintendo still using him? I thought there were some kind of rights issues with Rare.

There was an interview for Country Returns where they said something along the lines of the of K Rool being old and unnecessary so it has a new cast of villains

 

[Enchess]

There was an interview for Country Returns where they said something along the lines of the of K Rool being old and unnecessary so it has a new cast of villains

As much as I love Returns and Tropical Freeze, I feel like Retro underestimated the charm of certain aspects of the original trilogy, beyond just K Rool. The tag team system was brilliant. My wife and sister both love playing coop with me in DKC1,2,3, but neither of them are ever willing to do it in Retro titles because tag team is more fun for them. Rambi may have been the most fun animal to use in DKC1, but when you cut out all the other animals you realize how important the variety was to the feel. And obviously, the Kremlings had loads more personality than the tikis. TF did way better in terms of villains though. I like the TF enemies as much as Kremlings (even though I really miss K Rool).

Anyway, I hate how Isaac is too new to be considered "retro" despite the fact that he's old enough that most kids in elementary, middle, and high school have never heard of him or his game because it's so old. I want Isaac in Smash mostly because I want a new Golden Sun. Nintendo has the perfect starter RPG with Pokemon and a nice hardcore RPG with Xenoblade, but they still don't have the transition RPG ever since Golden Sun died. As far as I can tell, there aren't many transition RPGs at all. We could really use some more.

 

[StormC]

This will sound mean but the confirmation of EVERYONE IS HERE + Daisy + Ridley + disconfirmation of Takamaru right after the Direct is almost like the universe telling us "yeah, this Smash game won't go the way you think."

RTC is fun to spitball in but people treat it like the end-all be-all. There is room for Isaac on the roster if Sakurai deems it so.

 

[MysticKnives]

This will sound mean but the confirmation of EVERYONE IS HERE + Daisy + Ridley + disconfirmation of Takamaru right after the Direct is almost like the universe telling us "yeah, this Smash game won't go the way you think."

RTC is fun to spitball in but people treat it like the end-all be-all. There is room for Isaac on the roster if Sakurai deems it so.

Probably more significant than people realize. I don't doubt we'll get characters that are pretty popular and who we expect, but I also see us getting a few characters most of the fanbase doesn't really expect or think has too high of a chance at all.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Still support Isaac.

I'd love to get a GS4 someday.

 

[KMDP]

Still support Isaac.

I'd love to get a GS4 someday.

You and me both!

Though I think it would be worth making a "Golden Sun 1 & 2 HD" on the Switch.

 

[Enchess]

You and me both!

Though I think it would be worth making a "Golden Sun 1 & 2 HD" on the Switch.

Would your ideal GoldenSun HD collection be full 3D remake, handdrawn sprites, or Octopath style?

I think I'd lean Octopath personally.

 

[Organization XIII]

Would your ideal GoldenSun HD collection be full 3D remake, handdrawn sprites, or Octopath style?

I think I'd lean Octopath personally.

Enhanced Dark Dawn style. While DD had some faults it got the style of Golden Sun perfect and love them to do that but better for the Switch. Not exactly sure where that falls on those options but that's what I would want

 

[KMDP]

Would your ideal GoldenSun HD collection be full 3D remake, handdrawn sprites, or Octopath style?

I think I'd lean Octopath personally.

Hmm... full 3D. Maybe modern Pokémon style (I don't mean art style, I mean what Pokémon does with it's world)

 

[GoodGrief741]

Would your ideal GoldenSun HD collection be full 3D remake, handdrawn sprites, or Octopath style?

I think I'd lean Octopath personally.

I hope Octopath does really well sales wise, that way we can start getting more beautiful looking pixel art games.