Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Bassoonist]

I definitely felt like Brawl was a good time to add Isaac. I was the most hyped for him back then, and thought he actually had a good chance. SSB4 I was toned down but thought he had a good chance following Dark Dawn.

I'll be honest, after both of those disappointments and the fact that the series has not been active since Dark Dawn I don't feel too optimistic about him being playable in Ultimate. I feel like SSB4 was the last great chance to add him. Now the GS series is pretty much dead. I suppose the best shot is the Ballot, but we also know that the amount of new characters is going to be limited. I think he would have had a better chance had this been an ordinary SSB with a standard amount of newcomers, but Sakurai already straight up said "don't expect many newcomers".

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

Brawl was fine timing, people were still interested in the series, and Isaac was consistently on fan roster and fake leaks. The roster was decided back in 2005, that was still plenty close enough to GS's releases. It was what with the competition being so stiff at the time, Isaac got edged out. :/

Yeah, it was a cruel mix of no-brainer choices that should've been in earlier (Wario, Diddy, Dedede) and newer faces from more recent releases (Ike, Lucas, Lucario). Not that I disliked how Brawl supported veteran series, but if it was more like Smash 4 in adding more new series, Isaac could've easily made it in.

I definitely felt like Brawl was a good time to add Isaac. I was the most hyped for him back then, and thought he actually had a good chance. SSB4 I was toned down but thought he had a good chance following Dark Dawn.

I'll be honest, after both of those disappointments and the fact that the series has not been active since Dark Dawn I don't feel too optimistic about him being playable in Ultimate. I feel like SSB4 was the last great chance to add him. Now the GS series is pretty much dead. I suppose the best shot is the Ballot, but we also know that the amount of new characters is going to be limited. I think he would have had a better chance had this been an ordinary SSB with a standard amount of newcomers, but Sakurai already straight up said "don't expect many newcomers".

I actually think his chances are still much better now even with a smaller amount that's geared towards fanservice than they would've been with a bigger amount that have the traditional focus on newer games. At least now it seems like he might be a relevant candidate.

 

[Falgor]

Hi guys i was searching for forums and websites i visited for Smash4 according to Isaac ans then i remembered Smashboards. Glad to see you again ! Count me in for another road for our Golden Boy !

Well well well, I'm not surprised to see you back here, but I'm glad about it buddy! We still need all the firepower we can.

A question for everyone: At which point can Isaac be considered "retro"? It's been 17 years since Golden Sun was released and it was featured on the Wii U Virtual Console. I don't think there are many possible retro reps outside maybe K. Rool, but I'm not even sure he would qualify as one.

Bonus question: Do y'all think we'll get Golden Sun 1&2 again on the replacement for the VC on the Switch?

Edit (I have way too many things to talk about): I forgot about one thing, what happened with Waluigi "fans" harassing Sakurai. Since Waluigi was created by Camelot too, I hope it won't have a negative impact on Isaac's chances. I don't see why it would but that still makes me a bit worried.

 

[Deleted member]

He faced stiff competition in Brawl, and the technical limitations of the 3DS kept him out, but I know he will return in Ultimate.

What form? I really don't know. However, I do hope that the daily updates on the game will debut a new character to make things suspenseful.

 

[KMDP]

A question for everyone: At which point can Isaac be considered "retro"? It's been 17 years since Golden Sun was released and it was featured on the Wii U Virtual Console. I don't think there are many possible retro reps outside maybe K. Rool, but I'm not even sure he would qualify as one.

Now, probably (Though Nintendo seems to disagree).

Bonus question: Do y'all think we'll get Golden Sun 1&2 again on the replacement for the VC on the Switch?

I'll do you one better, Golden Sun remake on the Switch (bringing both together as they should have been).

 

[Ultinarok]

Every release of Smash, I get caught up in the theory of "we are being trolled," because well.. Sakurai loves his surprises and loves his playful trolling. Like Toon Link in the spirit tracks stage.
So I wont say my normal "maybe some of the things shown werent actually what they seemed," but maybe what we saw of Waluigi and others (Bomberman), is not as it seemed.

Either way, I dont think the exclusion of Waluigi and Isaac is anything of particular note. Waluigi is a fun character who would be great as an addition, but he isnt even the next most prominant Mario character. And Isaac is a niche game.
id love them both. Isaac is my second most wanted after K Rool. But it is no indication of poor treatment. Waluigi was even given honorable mentions many times. With the stated sentiment that he was loved.

Yeah I'm not inclined to believe that Sakurai is deliberately mistreating anyone, just an odd coincidence that Camelots most significant character contributions to Nintendo have both been excluded. I guess the theory relates more to Golden Sun being completely abandoned in Smash 4, because that always struck me as unusual.

And while it was a niche game series, the GBA games were some of the most successful and well-received GBA games on the system, only losing to things like Pokemon and Mario. It certainly was more praised and renowned than Earthbound during the Smash 64 era, and yet Ness was there. In fact, Golden Sun sold better than the Mother series altogether and that series has multiple stages, items, ATs, dozens of songs and two reps. Not throwing heat at Mother, because its amazing, but yeah, being niche is definitely not sufficient to discredit Isaac.

 

[Bassoonist]

A question for everyone: At which point can Isaac be considered "retro"? It's been 17 years since Golden Sun was released and it was featured on the Wii U Virtual Console. I don't think there are many possible retro reps outside maybe K. Rool, but I'm not even sure he would qualify as one.

We could have this discussion, but I don't think it matters in the context of SSB. Sakurai (and many others) have this very specific idea of retro that only includes stuff from the era of the NES and before.

Edit (I have way too many things to talk about): I forgot about one thing, what happened with Waluigi "fans" harassing Sakurai. Since Waluigi was created by Camelot too, I hope it won't have a negative impact on Isaac's chances. I don't see why it would but that still makes me a bit worried.

I wouldn't be worried about that at all. I doubt Sakurai would be so petty as to write off an entire company's characters because of the actions of the fans of one. Which Waluigi is considered a Mario character in everyone's mind, anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

Comic of the day!

Isaac, why do you trust Garet with anything?

 

[KMDP]

Yeah I'm not inclined to believe that Sakurai is deliberately mistreating anyone, just an odd coincidence that Camelots most significant character contributions to Nintendo have both been excluded. I guess the theory relates more to Golden Sun being completely abandoned in Smash 4, because that always struck me as unusual.

Hey! It wasn't completely abandoned. It had a theme in Palutena's temple. *sobs quietly in the corner*

And while it was a niche game series, the GBA games were some of the most successful and well-received GBA games on the system, only losing to things like Pokemon and Mario. It certainly was more praised and renowned than Earthbound during the Smash 64 era, and yet Ness was there. In fact, Golden Sun sold better than the Mother series altogether and that series has multiple stages, items, ATs, dozens of songs and two reps. Not throwing heat at Mother, because its amazing, but yeah, being niche is definitely not sufficient to discredit Isaac.

Did Golden Sun exist during the Smash 64 era? I think you mean Melee.
I'd say Ness (pre-64), Lucas (very much so in the West before Brawl), Marth and Roy (ditto for Melee), Ice Climbers, R.O.B., any Kid Icarus character (pre-Brawl) and a few other I might not be thinking of are pretty niche.

 

[Ultinarok]

Hey! It wasn't completely abandoned. It had a theme in Palutena's temple. *sobs quietly in the corner*


Did Golden Sun exist during the Smash 64 era? I think you mean Melee.
I'd say Ness (pre-64), Lucas (very much so in the West before Brawl), Marth and Roy (ditto for Melee), Ice Climbers, R.O.B., any Kid Icarus character (pre-Brawl) and a few other I might not be thinking of are pretty niche.

No I was referring to the state of Earthbound at Smash 64 compared to the state of Golden Sun in recent Smash games. Earthbound was more niche in 1999 than Golden Sun was in 2008 or even 2014. Yet we see how much love and recognition its gotten.

 

[KMDP]

No I was referring to the state of Earthbound at Smash 64 compared to the state of Golden Sun in recent Smash games. Earthbound was more niche in 1999 than Golden Sun was in 2008 or even 2014. Yet we see how much love and recognition its gotten.

Ah, sorry. I misunderstood what you meant, I had a feeling that was what you meant, but went the wrong way.
But on that front, we agree (at least from a Western Perspective, who knows what the Mother/Golden Sun deal was in Japan).

Edit: Mother is WEIRD, but it's exactly the kind of weird Japan tends to love.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

A question for everyone: At which point can Isaac be considered "retro"? It's been 17 years since Golden Sun was released and it was featured on the Wii U Virtual Console. I don't think there are many possible retro reps outside maybe K. Rool, but I'm not even sure he would qualify as one

Considering Pit was added as a retro rep back when Brawl came around which was around 20 years after the release of the first Kid Icarus game, Isaac had his first game released 17 years ago which is a close number. For Isaac to be considered as a retro rep it all depends on what Sakurai views as retro, so far from previous games he's only included the NES era in this category but we do need to consider that the SNES era really doesn't have much in that category for Sakurai to consider. It all depends on whether the demand is enough for Sakurai to think so

 

[KMDP]

For Isaac to be considered as a retro rep it all depends on what Sakurai views as retro

I don't think Sakurai thinks like that, honestly... "Retro rep" is pretty much a fan concept.

Hey, wait...

Is that my Isaac stock in your signature!? Thank you.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I don't think Sakurai thinks like that, honestly... "Retro rep" is pretty much a fan concept.

Hey, wait...

Is that my Isaac stock in your signature!? Thank you.

You did a great job on it, I was able to make my Isaac stock complete and look authentic to Ultimate's art-style. Sorry for not giving you credit btw.

 

[Skyblade12]

I don't think Sakurai thinks like that, honestly... "Retro rep" is pretty much a fan concept.

Hey, wait...

Is that my Isaac stock in your signature!? Thank you.

It's a good version of the stock style they're using for Smash Ultimate. But I think it needs the yellow scarf at the bottom.

 

[KMDP]

You did a great job on it, I was able to make my Isaac stock complete and look authentic to Ultimate's art-style. Sorry for not giving you credit btw.

Hahaha, it's fine!

It's a good version of the stock style they're using for Smash Ultimate. But I think it needs the yellow scarf at the bottom.

I didn't consider the scarf until after it was done.

I also have an Isaac stock in the Smash 4 style (well, I've a fair few characters in both/either style).

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I also conceptualised the possibility of having Felix as an echo fighter. I wish there was a better 3D model but this was the best I could find

 

[KMDP]

I also conceptualised the possibility of having Felix as an echo fighter. I wish there was a better 3D model but this was the best I could find

Felix could work as an Alph-style alt, too.

Since Isaac and Felix are IIRC extremely similar in their Venus Djinn only classes.

 

[Skyblade12]

Felix could work as an Alph-style alt, too.

Since Isaac and Felix are IIRC extremely similar in their Venus Djinn only classes.

The classes themselves are identical (Matthew's are nearly identical, there are just a few different options due to the change in games). Matthew and Isaac are also nearly identical in terms of stat lines. Felix has a bit more differentiation, IIRC.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

The classes themselves are identical (Matthew's are nearly identical, there are just a few different options due to the change in games). Matthew and Isaac are also nearly identical in terms of stat lines. Felix has a bit more differentiation, IIRC.

Felix or Matthew could get away with being an echo fighter. In fact, the concept really seems geared towards them since Adepts usually share the same Psynergy and very similar stats anyways. I only expect them to be referenced by palette swaps if Isaac makes it in though.

 

[Skyblade12]

Felix or Matthew could get away with being an echo fighter. In fact, the concept really seems geared towards them since Adepts usually share the same Psynergy and very similar stats anyways. I only expect them to be referenced by palette swaps if Isaac makes it in though.

I agree.

While I could easily make each of them have a different move set, I really feel as though Echo Fighters would be the most they could reasonably aspire to.



Which is fine. There are other characters who wouldn't work as well as Echoes or costume swaps that we can get. Like Jenna or Mia.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

I agree.

While I could easily make each of them have a different move set, I really feel as though Echo Fighters would be the most they could reasonably aspire to.



Which is fine. There are other characters who wouldn't work as well as Echoes or costume swaps that we can get. Like Jenna or Mia.

I get that Garet. Jenna, or maybe even Alex would probably be the ideal second character because of their story importance but Jupiter Psynergy makes for a really interesting moveset with Ivan or Sheba. Obviously, I'll just be ecstatic if we have Isaac and all of the other GBA main characters (including Alex) are his palette swaps, but it's interesting to think about.

 

[Skyblade12]

I get that Garet. Jenna, or maybe even Alex would probably be the ideal second character because of their story importance but Jupiter Psynergy makes for a really interesting moveset with Ivan or Sheba. Obviously, I'll just be ecstatic if we have Isaac and all of the other GBA main characters (including Alex) are his palette swaps, but it's interesting to think about.

We don’t see Alex do a lot, though. We’ve seen one combat move from him. But that move would be a perfect Assist Trophy attack.

We can also get one character for each element. Why not?

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

We don’t see Alex do a lot, though. We’ve seen one combat move from him. But that move would be a perfect Assist Trophy attack.

We can also get one character for each element. Why not?

I was just talking about as a second character, Ivan or Sheba would be really interesting to have. I wouldn't at all complain if we also got Garet/Jenna and Mia/Piers/Alex (since he's related to Mia and is also a Mercury adept it's safe to assume he'd be capable of the same abilities plus his own unique attack).

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I was just talking about as a second character, Ivan or Sheba would be really interesting to have. I wouldn't at all complain if we also got Garet/Jenna and Mia/Piers/Alex (since he's related to Mia and is also a Mercury adept it's safe to assume he'd be capable of the same abilities plus his own unique attack).

If they do infact make a Golden Sun 4, I think it'd be interesting for the protagonist to be an offspring of Sheba and be a Jupiter Adept and then be promoted to playable in a future Smash. Either that, Ivan or Sveta I'd dig

 

[Staarih]

Here's something I found interesting, the NPD Group game sales data for May 2018 in the US listed some select historical platform sales (never knew they did that) and Golden Sun: Dark Dawn appears to be the top selling game for the NDS. The sale numbers in actuality are probably very low, if not non-existent, but it's fun to see GS still getting love on an "old(er) school" platform.

 

[Billybae10K]

I get the feeling that the Rate Their Chances thread tomorrow is going to be very painful to watch. I'm sensing a lot of low predictions for our Golden Boy on the horizon.

 

[Deleted member]

I get the feeling that the Rate Their Chances thread tomorrow is going to be very painful to watch. I'm sensing a lot of low predictions for our Golden Boy on the horizon.

Honestly, I don't care for RTC since it's more of a haven't for disgruntled fans insisting that their character can't get in, so neither should anyone.

Plus the choices can be very stupid.

Anyway, anybody notice that Waluigi spam directed at Sakurai? I'm hoping that doesn't effect up our chances.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I don't think Sakurai thinks like that, honestly... "Retro rep" is pretty much a fan concept.

ON the plus side, Sakurai DOES like to pickup characters from old beloved franchises.

I am surprised he doesnt just personally like Isaac. He is like Fire Emblem + Earthbound, two series who are great but still arguably get too much attention in Smash. Hell, you could even say its a bit like Earthbound with its insistence on spirituality.

Why dont we have Isaac! He has such unique assets.

 

[Deleted member]

Comic of the Day!

Hey, look at the bright side, at least he wasn't squashed by a Steamroller.

 

[MysticKnives]

ON the plus side, Sakurai DOES like to pickup characters from old beloved franchises.

I am surprised he doesnt just personally like Isaac. He is like Fire Emblem + Earthbound, two series who are great but still arguably get too much attention in Smash. Hell, you could even say its a bit like Earthbound with its insistence on spirituality.

Why dont we have Isaac! He has such unique assets.

Cause EarthBound is the best! Real talk though, I got done playing GS not too long ago, and it definitely seems like the type of thing Sakurai would like. Isaac would be a pretty unique addition to the series. Has Sakurai ever talked about Golden Sun in an interview or something? To get a better idea of his opinion on those games?

 

[N3ON]

Cause EarthBound is the best! Real talk though, I got done playing GS not too long ago, and it definitely seems like the type of thing Sakurai would like. Isaac would be a pretty unique addition to the series. Has Sakurai ever talked about Golden Sun in an interview or something? To get a better idea of his opinion on those games?

Sakurai tweeted a picture of a mech two years ago and people are still talking about it. If he had ever mentioned Golden Sun Isaac would be on every roster.

 

[Billybae10K]

Cause EarthBound is the best! Real talk though, I got done playing GS not too long ago, and it definitely seems like the type of thing Sakurai would like. Isaac would be a pretty unique addition to the series. Has Sakurai ever talked about Golden Sun in an interview or something? To get a better idea of his opinion on those games?

I'm afraid I couldn't find anything relating to Sakurai talking about Golden Sun at all. So we're very much left in the dark at that.

 

[FunAtParties]

Sakurai tweeted a picture of a mech two years ago and people are still talking about it. If he had ever mentioned Golden Sun Isaac would be on every roster.

Someone checks in on the Ray thread

 

[Billybae10K]

Personally my EU & JP idea holds true we could actually see Isaac as the Golden Sun games were big in France. And France has got a lot more people in it than you'd expect.

This was in the Ultimate main discussion chat. While it's nothing concrete, I can at least vouch that GS had a lot of popularity in Spain, and according to this user, France. So if there's a silent majority out there, I hold hope that Europe came through.

 

[Falgor]

Personally my EU & JP idea holds true we could actually see Isaac as the Golden Sun games were big in France. And France has got a lot more people in it than you'd expect.

This was in the Ultimate main discussion chat. While it's nothing concrete, I can at least vouch that GS had a lot of popularity in Spain, and according to this user, France. So if there's a silent majority out there, I hold hope that Europe came through.

Well Kisae and I can attest he's right, there are still quite a bit of Golden Sun fans in Europe. And trust me, each time I see one, I do my best to bring them to the current places where we still relatively thrive.

I wonder what you'd think of asking a friend of mine if she could write a nice message for us in Japanese to send to Sakurai, asking for Isaac. That said, with the recent case of Waluigi harassers, I'd probably just be afraid of us looking like that, even though other communities of fans do it.

 

[Billybae10K]

Well Kisae and I can attest he's right, there are still quite a bit of Golden Sun fans in Europe. And trust me, each time I see one, I do my best to bring them to the current places where we still relatively thrive.

I wonder what you'd think of asking a friend of mine if she could write a nice message for us in Japanese to send to Sakurai, asking for Isaac. That said, with the recent case of Waluigi harassers, I'd probably just be afraid of us looking like that, even though other communities of fans do it.

Given the roster was developed at earliest in December 2015, I doubt a message would mean any realistic change for Isaac's chances. If he got in, it was straight after the ballot, and if not, we can at least try and lobby for DLC down the line.

Personally, my big fear is that the Mii Costumes from the Smash 4 DLC period were teases at new characters, and Lloyd Irving from the Tales series got a costume and would fit the same sort of niche as Isaac.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

Given the roster was developed at earliest in December 2015, I doubt a message would mean any realistic change for Isaac's chances. If he got in, it was straight after the ballot, and if not, we can at least try and lobby for DLC down the line.

Personally, my big fear is that the Mii Costumes from the Smash 4 DLC period were teases at new characters, and Lloyd Irving from the Tales series got a costume and would fit the same sort of niche as Isaac.

It does seem strange that Isaac never got a costume. There were both a ton of realistic and not-so realistic candidates that got costumes, but Isaac was strangely absent again. I'm not going to say it hurts him, because those costumes will have different meanings depending on the character, but it would've been a great sign to see him acknowledged. My only hopeful theory is that since planned characters like ICs, Chorus Kids didn't get Mii costumes, Isaac could've been a part of that list and they had bigger plans for him.

 

[Skyblade12]

It does seem strange that Isaac never got a costume. There were both a ton of realistic and not-so realistic candidates that got costumes, but Isaac was strangely absent again. I'm not going to say it hurts him, because those costumes will have different meanings depending on the character, but it would've been a great sign to see him acknowledged. My only hopeful theory is that since planned characters like ICs, Chorus Kids didn't get Mii costumes, Isaac could've been a part of that list and they had bigger plans for him.

I don’t think the third party costumes mean anything.

But, yeah, would be feeling a lot better had we gotten one.

Even if the Mii Swordsman wouldn’t do Isaac justice at all.

 

[KMDP]

Even if the Mii Swordsman wouldn’t do Isaac justice at all.

Maybe that's why Sakurai decided against including an Isaac Mii Costume?