it would be great if someday this would occur: conversation between two people: i love the new smash how come all of a sudden it became so drastically different? reply with a smile: there used to be an odd poster here by the name of Kencan who made a post one day on Smash Mechanics and the developers seemed to have taken notice 
...
this is what i wrote to mr. hylian (he didn't respond), i was wondering if you could reopen my thread in the workshop forum (i don't want to post a new thread yet in the workshop because then i'd be spamming since there is already one of my closed threads there (that i requested to be closed), if you aren't going to do this favor for me than i'll just wait till that thread passes before i post it again is that alright with you since originally it was out of my request to close it anyway... i got some very interesting responses and now i've decided i want a thread of my own to see what responses i'd get (i got a response from zhamy in the original workshop thread: with the cute korean singer from the SNSD korean pop group with a nice pink background and korean letters in the back see if this pic shows up:
he said: This will be a fantastic game. (koreans know what they're talking about, sponsor e-sports and are very proficient at this area), originally KevinMorrissey12 (I msged him in the AIM, he said he closed both of my original threads for me out of my wish and that i can post in the SSB4 suggestions sticky and he allows it (originally it was posted in the general discussion than i moved it to the workshop because an admin directed me there, now people are telling me i should post it in the SSB4 thread and that i am spamming the forums so just to make sure i don't get deleted... (i posted there too but it just gets overshadowed by 19,000 other replies and also i want a thread of my own just to see what reactions i'll get and since it can be its own individual thread since it's not really an ssb4 suggestion it's more like a thread to improve brawl+ and i am not exactly spamming either since i'm only posting it twice...since the thread has already passed a page i'm guessing it's alright for me to post again now hope i'm not spamming someone please tell me if i am
this will be the final time i will post this because i didn't understand how this forum worked before i thought i could delete my posts but kevinm only closed them by accident so i didn't know they couldn't be deleted...my ideas are just so good and i want smash to become a legendary game in the future so i want to make sure my ideas are out there so that someone knows and that everybody will benefit from a better game in the near future...
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original general discussion thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240408
original workshop thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240421
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Smash Concepts
well first off, i don't know where to post my suggestions (can someone tell me if General Discussion is the right place on this site i heard this site is the largest community) i can't find any official places to do so...smashdojo has no place for suggestions and sakurai probably would ignore me anyway so...if there is a way to get these ideas through to sakurai that would be obviously so awesome...there is a smash blog and forum at ign and i initially wanted to go there since i saw that the Dragon Ball Z fanclub was there and the creators opened up a suggestion page on IGN, but smash had no such thing there even though IGN is an international site and would've been my best chance, i'll try posting this in their forums but since i'm not a paid member it will probably get deleted after a day (happened last time):
one thing to keep in mind is this page is only designed for new mechanic ideas, the actual balancing of the mechanics along with the balancing of the game including numbers, damage, knockback, etc. won't be discussed here too much in-depth as we will leave it up to the designers to resolve these balance issues since it is too lengthy to post such details here...
DUE TO FLAMES HERE IS THE DISCLAIMER TELLING YOU TO READ EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU POST NONSENSICAL FLAMES including some people who should know better: that's why i said alot of it is optional but some of it is necessary, try reading b4 you post , i know it wasn't meant to be competitive, but i said that that doesn't mean it can't be...it can be both for families who just like to mash and also for a more serious format (unless nintendo purposely wants their games to be as simple as possible which wouldn't make sense because smash is quite a complicated game)...man why don't you people read what i wrote first instead of flaming right off the bat...
i'm trying to make this game as good as possible instead of posting nonsensical posts pls try to contribute instead of having a negative effect...alot of these ideas are very top notch ideas and i'm sure the creators would agree, and don't you guys want a better game so instead of flaming let's all try to contribute and make our own suggestions thx...THE FOLLOWING COMBOS SECTION HAS NOW BEEN TOTALLY OPTIONALIZED AND ALSO KEEP IN MIND STILL THAT EVERYTHING HERE IS OPTIONAL, due to flames from people who haven't read the part where i said everything is optional but some are necessary i will make it clear here so that it doesn't take away from the Smash "feel" of the game...it's pretty obvious there is a heck of a lot of resistance to change here...but in order to make things better...sometimes you have to change things...look...as it stands smash brothers was always a complicated game right from the start (it was always one of the most complicated nintendo games)...but that didn't mean it couldn't be for families who wished to forgo many of the added options and just button mash...can i suggest this to the brawl+ (modded community version of brawl) guys? if maybe you guys can do that for me...where do i find the brawl+ family? because alot of times the commercial developers look at such things and thus make it into a reality...you don't have to learn much with this version either you can forgo the added options and just button mash as usual as well...all of the added features aren't necessary for you to be able to play the game normally...(in fact...all that's really necessary for families is to learn to get back onto the ledge and ko an opponent and simple things like that that they'd have to know anyway with the original smash),
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PLEASE PEOPLE TRY READING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WRITE FIRST AND PUT IT INTO THOUGHT A LITTLE BIT BEFORE YOU START MAKING NONSENSICAL STATEMENTS THANK YOU...CERTAIN PEOPLE REALLY SHOULD KNOW BETTER...for the mod community i'm sure they are alot smarter hopefully *HOPEFULLY* USE YOUR IMAGINATION PEOPLE I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF 5 BARS ON YOUR SCREEN EITHER I WASN'T MEANING IT LITERALLY...IT'S JUST A SYSTEM...i'm not taking away from the uniqueness of smash at all (if by uniqueness you mean empty space and not enough features)...i'm only adding to it...as it stands smash has way too little features and could use alot more...plus it is not overly complicated and even if it was the complexity could be overlooked by families who just want to button-mash and forgo the added complexities anyway...because as it stands that's what families usually do anyhow they don't really get into the complexities that smash always had anyway...(smash was always a complicated game from the start)
...now i'm gonna start things off with bad ideas at first because this is the way i wrote it if i put all the best ideas at the top first in order to catch the eye better than it would ruin the flow i wrote it in i think so here goes...
okay okay, i'll start off with some eyecatchers i'll try and see what i can revise to make the beginning more eye-catching:
1. *FLASH* (i will suggest something new as well here because currently the game doesn't incorporate these mechanics too fully yet): first of all, we should revert back to classic fighting game tradition and take away a lesson, fighting games are meant to be played with an intrinsic fighting system, traditional games have high-block (raise your hands sideways with palms facing downward parallel to the ground femininely kung-fu style) and low-block (lower your hands sideways with palms facing downward and hands parallel the ground) while this may not necessarily be feasible with smash the following gives us some of that intrinsic feel back (as it stands the current melee fighting system involving the shield/attack/defense is very washed out, oversimplified and far too mundane: you know how when you press and hold the shield you can also nudge and move the shield slightly in a certain direction well the shield should innately be easier to break and only if when someone hits you you nudge the shield in the correct direction of the hit do you take less damage, knockback, "clinch", etc. etc. to the shield and also when you nudge in the correct direction at the exact right moment it becomes a parry in which case afterwards you can unleash hell and retaliation on your opponent); also the shield should have different weak points in it which allow it to take more damage, knockback, "clinch", etc. etc., the shield having the most weaknesses in its middle (because it is hardest to hit someone in the middle because it repels you when you stand in the middle of the other person), shield having second weakest area in the back of the player, third weakest (thus being stronger and harder to break) at the diagonal between the top part of the shield and the back part, the 4th weakest at the top part (all these parts go into the center where the closer it to the center the weaker it is combined with the weakness of the surface areas listed above at the same time and are calibrated as such), the 5th part is at the diagonal between the front and the back, and the strongest part would be the front, and also the lower part of the shield in front will also be slightly weaker than average so "tripping" your opponent is encouraged, the shield will also be stunned longer at the weak spots, or repelled further or dragged further into the player attacking the shield based on the placement of the hit (this is already a mechanic in smash, but it would be cooler if they extended this concept and added "clinching moves" that drag the player into you either with or without his shield on thus "clinching him" this allows for combos to be pulled off without the combo/attraction meter (also you should be able to somewhat clinch your opponent in the air albeit ***far, far*** less (and only by exploiting certain weak areas of the opponent and applying pinpoint attacks can you pull this off [i'm sure the developers will better this mechanic in so many ways], this refines smash more so that when you hit people in the air it isnt as fluid and they wouldn't fly far and fast as insanely instantly as they do now allowing you to pull off more stunts in the air and giving it an intrinsic feel), the shield will also be colored in shades with the strongest part being brightest. also the shield will also have this following new mechanic: the shield will have 3 "breaking" phases: the first one will be very easy to break and after a couple of hits his shield will break off for a second but he will still be in full control of his character, the second phase comes ***much*** later on (so that it doesn't ruin the smash feel of the game and the ability to constantly hold down your shield and protect yourself without consequences or your shield shrinking too fast, these mechanics obviously can be calibrated and adjusted to suit the needs of the developer) and comes only shortly before the third phase and this is where his shield breaks and he also gets either stunned for an instant or his shield breaks and his speed slows down a bit for a short while, and the third phase that comes shortly after is the normal phase where his shield breaks and he is stunned for a long while. the area and the way and method you hit someone determines how fast and far they get knocked-back also by the same token where you hit them (the torso, arms legs or head determines how much additional or less damage they receive, as well as "clinching", etc. etc. (by this time you realize that i haven't included every possible detail that is up for the developer's imagination), also this is something completely new.
2. be able to do more in the air (and make aerial combat a viable option but very difficult to pull off so that you always have the feeling you remain grounded while adding in the concept of "lift") such as link aerial combos, new ideas such as extremely short distance "air dashing" (sort of like the original air dodge in melee that you can pulll off in all directions but shorter? so you can't use it to get back from offstage too easily except it was a dodge and wasn't an actual move, this gives you more opportunities to do stuff offstage cause you can airdash up and stay in the air longer) in all directions.
3. another thing they should add is a third "Hectic bar" (it's sort of like taking a minimal adrenaline shot for rage, Boost bar or Speed bar? these two are good cause you can hit 3 levels "Speedy or Speed", "Speed Boost", and "Super Speed Boost" little yellow words that pop up on the screen which i'll explain now)" which adds a "third dimension to this otherwise bland flat and 2d game, where the more and faster you move around or jump without doing any other attacks or moves the more you build up a medium sized meter which allows you to gain an [indiscernible] amount of speed the more its charged up the faster you will move and the meter will also diminish rapidly if it's charged up more it will diminish faster if it's charged up less it will diminish slower (this is called "Speed", "Speed Boost" or the next step is when the bar hits the max limit given that you can assume a defensive stance and evade your opponent for a long enough time in order to build it up), in order to "save the bar for a later time" you press a certain button and it saves it at that point so if you press it fast enough you should be able to save it at either "speed" or the maximum amount "speed boost" and the bar will pop a pale yellow glow, also when you save it at the max amount "speed boost" you can take a lucky chance at hitting the jackpot and gain the "super speed boost" below the hectic bar appears an ultra-tiny annoyance-free line bar which gives you a jackpot chance where the bar goes left and right really fast 3 times (after which it cancels) whenever it reaches the extreme right if you press correctly (if not it cancels) it will give you a super-speed boost save that can only be used as a "save" so that whenever you want to unleash it you can (you may wish to map the "super speed boost" jackpot bar to a different key? otherwise you'd have to cancel it purposely or wait until it cancels if you only want to use your "normal save" and this would waste your time sort of (everything becomes faster even your air dodge and gravity! and also you can do less stuff offstage so maybe you wish to opt out of this, so this leads to interesting options), also because you have to press an extra button in order to save your speed boost and also to unleash it this adds a third-dimension to the game and allows for pros to create a larger gap between themselves and noobies because it takes skill to manage the extra buttons which would normally slow a noob down...
4. so altogether there are 5 bars the super, combo, force hectic, and hover bars, what is the hover bar? exactly what it says allows for low gravity (AN ***INDISCERNIBLE*** AMOUNT FOR THOSE WHO DON"T KNOW HOW TO BE A LITTLE MORE CREATIVE WITH THEIR BRAINS) so you can stay in the air longer and do more stuff offstage and it's activated by holding down a button and this bar automatically refills over time (which is an advantage in brawl despite the obvious disadvantages of low gravity compared with melee which imo is a little too fast but is more exciting (fox falls a million miles a second)), you want to be able to do a little bit more offstage and make offstage gameplay an actual element of the game which is an advantage in brawl cause of low gravity, in melee you could probably only do one or two thing offstage before you had to get back onstage
ground dashing (sort of like wave dashing) is also a feature that can be ***considered***. but with this version you can only do ground dashes every now and then and not repeatedly (I don't want to add any more bars so there will be no ground dash charge bars luckily for you people, but maybe just one more bar a bar where you can only dash a limited amount of times before it has to recharge for a long time so you can use dashes again), also: a final note is that ground dashing also adds to the variety in dodges because currently you can only dodge in one way (unless you count moving or jumping away but i'm only talking about the dodge system here) and that is to roll dodge behind the other player if you add in dashing then you can also dash behind him on top of just roll dodging (obviously as well as dashing away or closer to your opponent to pull off a surprise speed manuever...)
5. this air dashing is also a feature of the combo implement that i will now describe (directly after you smash an opponent back you have to press a button with great precision like with the street fighter 3rd strike parry in order to pull off a special air dash chase that only attracts you to the opponent, as well as having your opponent attract to you (only the combo meter can give you this special attraction, *OOPS FORGOT TO ADD THIS IN...YOU HAVE TO PRESS A BUTTON IN ORDER TO DRAIN YOUR COMBO METER AND PULL OFF THIS ATTRACTION...whether or not you want to press a button is up to the developers they do as they see fit maybe they just want to keep it simple and freeflow it [so it's hard for fox to down air hurricane kick you then give chase and do it again with this system] normally you wouldn't be able to attract to your opponent nor would the opponent attract to you) but slower than a teleport (your attract speed has to be slightly faster in the air because in the air it is harder to catch up, so it will sort of attract you to the opponent by an incredibly tiny amount and the opponent to you (this latter part would only be even more so ever so slightly, the primary function is for you to attract to your opponent not for the opponent to attract to you (for this you have the force meter which i will describe later which can pull your opponent into you and also repel him away from you ever so slightly) and since he attracts to you when he gets knockbacked it's for a tiny shorter distance and at a tiny bit slower speed as well), sort of like ever-so-mild sticky glue, also your speed also slightly increases so you can catch up easier
) (also you automatically can't do this after it passes a short distance so eventually it'll stop no matter how many combos u pull off cause they will fly too far too fast too erratically for you to catch up, and yes yes i realized the following also which is why it doesn't work after a short distance because you don't want fox chaining multiple up-airs on you and ko'ing you at 0%, well of course all moves can be balanced both knockback and damage-wise [for example additional combo attacks have much less knockback and do less damage, so if you want to opt for "regular combos without using the combo/attraction meter to give you this added attraction/dashing ability, then you can do so and it will be much more damaging"] to have compability with my feature while still retaining their innate characteristics), and anyhow combos will be extremely difficult to pull off and also it will have a limits when it reaches certain points so it maintains this stance reserved for elite players...
6. this can be used on the ground as well and are much easier (in the air you can probably only do at most an extra hit or so due to you being unable to hit them into and bounce them off the ground to position a combo easier since they basically just fly everywhere) (because you can catch up faster, and you don't have to position and place moves such that you [clinch-which is already a mechanic slightly incorporated into the game explained further below] and attract the opponent closer to you, either with the combo meter giving you the ability to attract people to you with hits as well as you attracting to other people) but for both air and ground there's a combo meter which starts off at line 0 doing absolutely nothing...when you build it up with the press of a button you can attract to people extremely indiscernibly, although the air combos are supposed to be much more difficult to pull off even for just that xtra one hit, and also to make it less likely that they can chain combos on you all the way to your death at the far reaches of the stage you can pull off a combo cancel etc. so perhaps there is also a "regular air dash" (a regular move)...this way if you're off the ledge and someone tries to give chase off-stage say a fox already shined u and you are basically dead already but they want to humiliate you further so they give chase and attack you but instead you cancel out there combo attack with the push of the "A" button (to make it easier for families there will be a nice pop-up graphic displaying that you should press the "A" button and at the exact moment when the combo links that graphic turns highlighted to show that that is the exact brief flash of a precise moment you have to press in order to cancel it) at the exact instant after they try to link up a combo after they shine you and instead you pull off a multiple hit combo yourself having charged up your combo meter earlier and you make it all the way back to the stage!
7. the third final thing they forgot was to extend the smash concept and to create a miini-game where a giant red dragon boss on the side of the screen spits soccer balls (which turn into a fireball after u hit it in brawl) at u and you smash the balls back at it to kill it that's basic concept they forgot smashing concept directional influence, etc., this concept can be expanded in alot of directions, of course before you reach this boss level you have to killl off hordes of enemy minions flying around the screen or something and smash stuff back at them as well, (or just a simple extension of multi-man melee turning it into flying enemies instead of grounded enemies, where you have enemies flying around the screen instead shooting stuff at you and you have to kill them all, etc.) such as a billion samuses on the sides fire straight missles and homing missles at you that constantly chase you and you either have to smash the missles back at the samuses or it's just survival mode and you can smash missles back towards other missles or just hit them to get rid of them, also a protect peach or zelda mode perhaps where enemies fire missles at peach and you have to get rid of them and occassionally soccer balls drop down which u can use to kill the enemies on the sides or top of the screen, or they simply shoot soccer balls at peach and you have to shield her and hit them back at the enemies, also this protect peach or protect zelda (peach or zelda can or cannot also attack and protect themselves) can evolve into a stand-alone scenario (this is a good idea in events mode that they can consider evolving into a stand alone thing), also i mean they really should make the adventure mode plausible to be played competitively and also you have to survive in the end and defeat a boss with a points system just like traditional platform games like in megaman 9, also you can have a survival mode where the screen just scrolls sideways or where the screen is still and you just move sideways and see how many baddies and/or bosses you can kill before you die.
8. now here comes the *optional* part (this can be a gameplay option under special modes where if people like it they can turn it on in tourneys, etc.) about the force meter (may i note that the use of these forces can be made *extremely* indiscernible and just make it so that the game flows a little tad bit smoother so it isn't always the same immovable mass possibly the reason being because this game is meant to flow a little and isn't entirely like traditional fighters especially at melee/close ranges where the fight essentially becomes locked and is just a stupid i dare you you dare me to attack and if you miss and i'm able to throw up my shield and block then i throw you type-of-game; and this is also still totally optional as some people may prefer to play oldschool style without the use of this force), you can use the force to attract (perhaps you only want the repel feature which i will describe later) him to you ever so slightly from a melee/close distance if you don't have the meter charged up (with little japanese line graphics radiating outwards (a non-comic book non-cheesy version) pulling him in or use the force to repel him (hey you can figure out a way to incorporate this into the game's theme can't u? lol) (this allows for more varied melee tactics when you are playing up-close with the opponent, when you pull him in it starts out slower then he will be dragged into you a bit quicker ever so slightly up to a certain point, perhaps you can also drag him behind you...this allows for new melee tactics...you can use the control pad for this...if you have the force meter charged up you can use it farther away but to a lesser extent and also when they're closer it becomes more powerful if you have your force meter charged up-you can charge up your force meter based on a net total of how much activity you do-the more and faster you run and move and jump around you gain a minimal amount, when you pull off blank attacks in the air (just attacking thin air without actually touching your opponent in order to build up your meter) you gain a slightly increased amount, when you hit your opponent and do an increasing amount of damage you gain more, and the more combos you pull off successfully you gain the most, etc., also the heavier, stronger and slower the character the more powerful their use of force...so they can use it to repel you and keep you away in order to pick away at, damage, and break your shield, it also gives them a better chance of hitting you if they can use it properly because the force will only attract strongest if you can place it properly and there are certain areas where the force has a very weak attraction and repel when you are grounded it is harder to pull you in, when you are in the air it is easier, so if a fox decides to run at you blindly jump in the air and kick you and you are Ganandorf you just say: COME HERE! pull him in and do your justice. it takes into account the momentum at which the opponent is running towards you as well as many other factors (when they are directly above you it should be harder to drag them in otherwise it would be dumb, and you can only use the force when you are facing the opponent so if you're facing right you press right (forward) in order to repel him or pull him directly in front of you and backwards (left) in order to attract him to you or attract him to directly behind where you're standing (if he's directly behind you on the right and you are facing the other way facing left then you can press left and *repel* or in other words pull him in front of you [NOTE: Since you have your back turned to him normally you wouldn't be able to use the force but if he's directly behind you you can pull him in front of you although it will be much harder and the force will be weaker than if when you are facing him and you try to pull him in back of you, and vice versa when he's on the right and you are facing him directly you can *attract* or pull him behind you), note: perhaps only heavier, slower, and bigger characters should have this ability as a B-Special move and perhaps only the "repel" ability and not the attract ability because having repel enables them to keep a distance between themselves and their enemies since they are slower so they can more easily dish out punishment.
9. you should be able to control directional influence a little bit this can be an option because it sort of ruins the game and makes placement hits impossible as well as ruining the flow of the game, but if you are able to somehow incorporate the "force" concept of repelling and attraction when your opponent is linking combos into you then you might be able to avoid the combos more easier and it gives you a way to avoid combos...(all in all it might just be a good idea to ditch the whole combo meter idea it's up to you guys, and just have combos pulled off normally with the normal way of doing it and reverting back to normal gameplay)
10. they knew about the final smash concept, (or adding supers to smash), but they refused to add supers, why (the supers don't necessarily have to be damaging or have knockback they can be used for utility purposes (cause you already have your charge-up smash attack?)
11. also give Ganon some shield-breaking or undodgable moves (well you do'nt necessarily need this as it is difficult to pull off the neutral standing dodge anyway as it takes too long to press those buttons which is a perfect setup that sakurai invented) that do extra shield damage or break the shield entirely he really needs it he sux (much less giving him a heck of alot more damage to begin with make him sort of like a Hugo character in Street fighter 3rd strike), the shield relaly regenerates way too fast, plus when you dizzy it shouldn't be for that long i really don't know why street fighter makes them dizzy so long, it should be only for a short time, and also projectiles need to do alot more damage honestly projectiles are quite weak
12. all cheesiness aside, this is where the real elite gameplay is...obviously smash gameplay (technical aspects and variety), moves and controls and fighting system, are not that tight and great and numerous yet, they really need to add in a ton more moves, making use of the diagonals especially to add more B-Special moves in (this game was meant to be played with alot of special moves but they opted for only 4 different B-Special ones with some characters only having three)...(it seems it isn't family accessible but in reality you can tune the diagonals to make them less sensitive), extra buttons, button combos and controls, directional pad etc.), (the current system is far too bad, cancels don't count as parries we need alot of extra stuff to add depth and difficulty as they do with serious fighting games like what they have with street fighter, etc. whatever else they have i do not know as i am not a game designer, i know this game is meant to be played flat but when it's too flat it becomes stupid, all these new concepts that i've suggested probably won't work well anyway with the current messy Smash fighting system and moves...
13. even though things aren't family accessible doesn't mean it can't still be a family game (other than adding diagonals which probably wouldn't work for families), because as smash is now, when played at a low level it can be for families for fun but it doesn't mean that you can't become very good at it and indulge in its complexities as well...hmm...if only there were a professional version of smash with a mature theme that would be cool, the characters would be much better too..."strider-type characters with a giant mechanical saber-tooth pet and also a flying mechnical gundam fighter that spreads lasers down at its victims in true japanese style, the possibilities for the Smash concept are endless (just look at the game Collosseum made by Shortfuse Games whose teammate Erik Svedang won 1st place at the Independent Games Festival it is a circular 3rd person fantasy gladiator arena where besides fighting 3 other players you also fight hordes of enemies and bosses a low budget game for Xbox Community Game download, this sort of builds off the concept of Defence of the Ancients [DOTA] or League of Legends which is the title for the commercial version in making, also there was an old game called Powerstone which featured slanted top-down square 3d arena fighting for 4 players, this is the evolvement of the fighting game genre, when linked to true 3d-fighting games (Final Fantasy Dissidia is progressing in this direction), smash is by far not dead yet: multiplayer fighting games are a genre of its own still in its infancy! (i wish blizzard would've not canceled their plans to join the console market they might've contributed to this category...) Smash has many secrets to discover!
i don't have that much time to think and i'm also tired so i'll leave it at this, otherwise i would think of new techs/fighting system ideas that i would add
...this is what i wrote to mr. hylian (he didn't respond), i was wondering if you could reopen my thread in the workshop forum (i don't want to post a new thread yet in the workshop because then i'd be spamming since there is already one of my closed threads there (that i requested to be closed), if you aren't going to do this favor for me than i'll just wait till that thread passes before i post it again is that alright with you since originally it was out of my request to close it anyway... i got some very interesting responses and now i've decided i want a thread of my own to see what responses i'd get (i got a response from zhamy in the original workshop thread: with the cute korean singer from the SNSD korean pop group with a nice pink background and korean letters in the back see if this pic shows up:
this will be the final time i will post this because i didn't understand how this forum worked before i thought i could delete my posts but kevinm only closed them by accident so i didn't know they couldn't be deleted...my ideas are just so good and i want smash to become a legendary game in the future so i want to make sure my ideas are out there so that someone knows and that everybody will benefit from a better game in the near future...
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original general discussion thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240408
original workshop thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240421
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Smash Concepts
well first off, i don't know where to post my suggestions (can someone tell me if General Discussion is the right place on this site i heard this site is the largest community) i can't find any official places to do so...smashdojo has no place for suggestions and sakurai probably would ignore me anyway so...if there is a way to get these ideas through to sakurai that would be obviously so awesome...there is a smash blog and forum at ign and i initially wanted to go there since i saw that the Dragon Ball Z fanclub was there and the creators opened up a suggestion page on IGN, but smash had no such thing there even though IGN is an international site and would've been my best chance, i'll try posting this in their forums but since i'm not a paid member it will probably get deleted after a day (happened last time):
one thing to keep in mind is this page is only designed for new mechanic ideas, the actual balancing of the mechanics along with the balancing of the game including numbers, damage, knockback, etc. won't be discussed here too much in-depth as we will leave it up to the designers to resolve these balance issues since it is too lengthy to post such details here...
DUE TO FLAMES HERE IS THE DISCLAIMER TELLING YOU TO READ EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU POST NONSENSICAL FLAMES including some people who should know better: that's why i said alot of it is optional but some of it is necessary, try reading b4 you post , i know it wasn't meant to be competitive, but i said that that doesn't mean it can't be...it can be both for families who just like to mash and also for a more serious format (unless nintendo purposely wants their games to be as simple as possible which wouldn't make sense because smash is quite a complicated game)...man why don't you people read what i wrote first instead of flaming right off the bat...
i'm trying to make this game as good as possible instead of posting nonsensical posts pls try to contribute instead of having a negative effect...alot of these ideas are very top notch ideas and i'm sure the creators would agree, and don't you guys want a better game so instead of flaming let's all try to contribute and make our own suggestions thx...THE FOLLOWING COMBOS SECTION HAS NOW BEEN TOTALLY OPTIONALIZED AND ALSO KEEP IN MIND STILL THAT EVERYTHING HERE IS OPTIONAL, due to flames from people who haven't read the part where i said everything is optional but some are necessary i will make it clear here so that it doesn't take away from the Smash "feel" of the game...it's pretty obvious there is a heck of a lot of resistance to change here...but in order to make things better...sometimes you have to change things...look...as it stands smash brothers was always a complicated game right from the start (it was always one of the most complicated nintendo games)...but that didn't mean it couldn't be for families who wished to forgo many of the added options and just button mash...can i suggest this to the brawl+ (modded community version of brawl) guys? if maybe you guys can do that for me...where do i find the brawl+ family? because alot of times the commercial developers look at such things and thus make it into a reality...you don't have to learn much with this version either you can forgo the added options and just button mash as usual as well...all of the added features aren't necessary for you to be able to play the game normally...(in fact...all that's really necessary for families is to learn to get back onto the ledge and ko an opponent and simple things like that that they'd have to know anyway with the original smash),
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PLEASE PEOPLE TRY READING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WRITE FIRST AND PUT IT INTO THOUGHT A LITTLE BIT BEFORE YOU START MAKING NONSENSICAL STATEMENTS THANK YOU...CERTAIN PEOPLE REALLY SHOULD KNOW BETTER...for the mod community i'm sure they are alot smarter hopefully *HOPEFULLY* USE YOUR IMAGINATION PEOPLE I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF 5 BARS ON YOUR SCREEN EITHER I WASN'T MEANING IT LITERALLY...IT'S JUST A SYSTEM...i'm not taking away from the uniqueness of smash at all (if by uniqueness you mean empty space and not enough features)...i'm only adding to it...as it stands smash has way too little features and could use alot more...plus it is not overly complicated and even if it was the complexity could be overlooked by families who just want to button-mash and forgo the added complexities anyway...because as it stands that's what families usually do anyhow they don't really get into the complexities that smash always had anyway...(smash was always a complicated game from the start)
...now i'm gonna start things off with bad ideas at first because this is the way i wrote it if i put all the best ideas at the top first in order to catch the eye better than it would ruin the flow i wrote it in i think so here goes...
okay okay, i'll start off with some eyecatchers i'll try and see what i can revise to make the beginning more eye-catching:
1. *FLASH* (i will suggest something new as well here because currently the game doesn't incorporate these mechanics too fully yet): first of all, we should revert back to classic fighting game tradition and take away a lesson, fighting games are meant to be played with an intrinsic fighting system, traditional games have high-block (raise your hands sideways with palms facing downward parallel to the ground femininely kung-fu style) and low-block (lower your hands sideways with palms facing downward and hands parallel the ground) while this may not necessarily be feasible with smash the following gives us some of that intrinsic feel back (as it stands the current melee fighting system involving the shield/attack/defense is very washed out, oversimplified and far too mundane: you know how when you press and hold the shield you can also nudge and move the shield slightly in a certain direction well the shield should innately be easier to break and only if when someone hits you you nudge the shield in the correct direction of the hit do you take less damage, knockback, "clinch", etc. etc. to the shield and also when you nudge in the correct direction at the exact right moment it becomes a parry in which case afterwards you can unleash hell and retaliation on your opponent); also the shield should have different weak points in it which allow it to take more damage, knockback, "clinch", etc. etc., the shield having the most weaknesses in its middle (because it is hardest to hit someone in the middle because it repels you when you stand in the middle of the other person), shield having second weakest area in the back of the player, third weakest (thus being stronger and harder to break) at the diagonal between the top part of the shield and the back part, the 4th weakest at the top part (all these parts go into the center where the closer it to the center the weaker it is combined with the weakness of the surface areas listed above at the same time and are calibrated as such), the 5th part is at the diagonal between the front and the back, and the strongest part would be the front, and also the lower part of the shield in front will also be slightly weaker than average so "tripping" your opponent is encouraged, the shield will also be stunned longer at the weak spots, or repelled further or dragged further into the player attacking the shield based on the placement of the hit (this is already a mechanic in smash, but it would be cooler if they extended this concept and added "clinching moves" that drag the player into you either with or without his shield on thus "clinching him" this allows for combos to be pulled off without the combo/attraction meter (also you should be able to somewhat clinch your opponent in the air albeit ***far, far*** less (and only by exploiting certain weak areas of the opponent and applying pinpoint attacks can you pull this off [i'm sure the developers will better this mechanic in so many ways], this refines smash more so that when you hit people in the air it isnt as fluid and they wouldn't fly far and fast as insanely instantly as they do now allowing you to pull off more stunts in the air and giving it an intrinsic feel), the shield will also be colored in shades with the strongest part being brightest. also the shield will also have this following new mechanic: the shield will have 3 "breaking" phases: the first one will be very easy to break and after a couple of hits his shield will break off for a second but he will still be in full control of his character, the second phase comes ***much*** later on (so that it doesn't ruin the smash feel of the game and the ability to constantly hold down your shield and protect yourself without consequences or your shield shrinking too fast, these mechanics obviously can be calibrated and adjusted to suit the needs of the developer) and comes only shortly before the third phase and this is where his shield breaks and he also gets either stunned for an instant or his shield breaks and his speed slows down a bit for a short while, and the third phase that comes shortly after is the normal phase where his shield breaks and he is stunned for a long while. the area and the way and method you hit someone determines how fast and far they get knocked-back also by the same token where you hit them (the torso, arms legs or head determines how much additional or less damage they receive, as well as "clinching", etc. etc. (by this time you realize that i haven't included every possible detail that is up for the developer's imagination), also this is something completely new.
2. be able to do more in the air (and make aerial combat a viable option but very difficult to pull off so that you always have the feeling you remain grounded while adding in the concept of "lift") such as link aerial combos, new ideas such as extremely short distance "air dashing" (sort of like the original air dodge in melee that you can pulll off in all directions but shorter? so you can't use it to get back from offstage too easily except it was a dodge and wasn't an actual move, this gives you more opportunities to do stuff offstage cause you can airdash up and stay in the air longer) in all directions.
3. another thing they should add is a third "Hectic bar" (it's sort of like taking a minimal adrenaline shot for rage, Boost bar or Speed bar? these two are good cause you can hit 3 levels "Speedy or Speed", "Speed Boost", and "Super Speed Boost" little yellow words that pop up on the screen which i'll explain now)" which adds a "third dimension to this otherwise bland flat and 2d game, where the more and faster you move around or jump without doing any other attacks or moves the more you build up a medium sized meter which allows you to gain an [indiscernible] amount of speed the more its charged up the faster you will move and the meter will also diminish rapidly if it's charged up more it will diminish faster if it's charged up less it will diminish slower (this is called "Speed", "Speed Boost" or the next step is when the bar hits the max limit given that you can assume a defensive stance and evade your opponent for a long enough time in order to build it up), in order to "save the bar for a later time" you press a certain button and it saves it at that point so if you press it fast enough you should be able to save it at either "speed" or the maximum amount "speed boost" and the bar will pop a pale yellow glow, also when you save it at the max amount "speed boost" you can take a lucky chance at hitting the jackpot and gain the "super speed boost" below the hectic bar appears an ultra-tiny annoyance-free line bar which gives you a jackpot chance where the bar goes left and right really fast 3 times (after which it cancels) whenever it reaches the extreme right if you press correctly (if not it cancels) it will give you a super-speed boost save that can only be used as a "save" so that whenever you want to unleash it you can (you may wish to map the "super speed boost" jackpot bar to a different key? otherwise you'd have to cancel it purposely or wait until it cancels if you only want to use your "normal save" and this would waste your time sort of (everything becomes faster even your air dodge and gravity! and also you can do less stuff offstage so maybe you wish to opt out of this, so this leads to interesting options), also because you have to press an extra button in order to save your speed boost and also to unleash it this adds a third-dimension to the game and allows for pros to create a larger gap between themselves and noobies because it takes skill to manage the extra buttons which would normally slow a noob down...
4. so altogether there are 5 bars the super, combo, force hectic, and hover bars, what is the hover bar? exactly what it says allows for low gravity (AN ***INDISCERNIBLE*** AMOUNT FOR THOSE WHO DON"T KNOW HOW TO BE A LITTLE MORE CREATIVE WITH THEIR BRAINS) so you can stay in the air longer and do more stuff offstage and it's activated by holding down a button and this bar automatically refills over time (which is an advantage in brawl despite the obvious disadvantages of low gravity compared with melee which imo is a little too fast but is more exciting (fox falls a million miles a second)), you want to be able to do a little bit more offstage and make offstage gameplay an actual element of the game which is an advantage in brawl cause of low gravity, in melee you could probably only do one or two thing offstage before you had to get back onstage
ground dashing (sort of like wave dashing) is also a feature that can be ***considered***. but with this version you can only do ground dashes every now and then and not repeatedly (I don't want to add any more bars so there will be no ground dash charge bars luckily for you people, but maybe just one more bar a bar where you can only dash a limited amount of times before it has to recharge for a long time so you can use dashes again), also: a final note is that ground dashing also adds to the variety in dodges because currently you can only dodge in one way (unless you count moving or jumping away but i'm only talking about the dodge system here) and that is to roll dodge behind the other player if you add in dashing then you can also dash behind him on top of just roll dodging (obviously as well as dashing away or closer to your opponent to pull off a surprise speed manuever...)
5. this air dashing is also a feature of the combo implement that i will now describe (directly after you smash an opponent back you have to press a button with great precision like with the street fighter 3rd strike parry in order to pull off a special air dash chase that only attracts you to the opponent, as well as having your opponent attract to you (only the combo meter can give you this special attraction, *OOPS FORGOT TO ADD THIS IN...YOU HAVE TO PRESS A BUTTON IN ORDER TO DRAIN YOUR COMBO METER AND PULL OFF THIS ATTRACTION...whether or not you want to press a button is up to the developers they do as they see fit maybe they just want to keep it simple and freeflow it [so it's hard for fox to down air hurricane kick you then give chase and do it again with this system] normally you wouldn't be able to attract to your opponent nor would the opponent attract to you) but slower than a teleport (your attract speed has to be slightly faster in the air because in the air it is harder to catch up, so it will sort of attract you to the opponent by an incredibly tiny amount and the opponent to you (this latter part would only be even more so ever so slightly, the primary function is for you to attract to your opponent not for the opponent to attract to you (for this you have the force meter which i will describe later which can pull your opponent into you and also repel him away from you ever so slightly) and since he attracts to you when he gets knockbacked it's for a tiny shorter distance and at a tiny bit slower speed as well), sort of like ever-so-mild sticky glue, also your speed also slightly increases so you can catch up easier
) (also you automatically can't do this after it passes a short distance so eventually it'll stop no matter how many combos u pull off cause they will fly too far too fast too erratically for you to catch up, and yes yes i realized the following also which is why it doesn't work after a short distance because you don't want fox chaining multiple up-airs on you and ko'ing you at 0%, well of course all moves can be balanced both knockback and damage-wise [for example additional combo attacks have much less knockback and do less damage, so if you want to opt for "regular combos without using the combo/attraction meter to give you this added attraction/dashing ability, then you can do so and it will be much more damaging"] to have compability with my feature while still retaining their innate characteristics), and anyhow combos will be extremely difficult to pull off and also it will have a limits when it reaches certain points so it maintains this stance reserved for elite players...6. this can be used on the ground as well and are much easier (in the air you can probably only do at most an extra hit or so due to you being unable to hit them into and bounce them off the ground to position a combo easier since they basically just fly everywhere) (because you can catch up faster, and you don't have to position and place moves such that you [clinch-which is already a mechanic slightly incorporated into the game explained further below] and attract the opponent closer to you, either with the combo meter giving you the ability to attract people to you with hits as well as you attracting to other people) but for both air and ground there's a combo meter which starts off at line 0 doing absolutely nothing...when you build it up with the press of a button you can attract to people extremely indiscernibly, although the air combos are supposed to be much more difficult to pull off even for just that xtra one hit, and also to make it less likely that they can chain combos on you all the way to your death at the far reaches of the stage you can pull off a combo cancel etc. so perhaps there is also a "regular air dash" (a regular move)...this way if you're off the ledge and someone tries to give chase off-stage say a fox already shined u and you are basically dead already but they want to humiliate you further so they give chase and attack you but instead you cancel out there combo attack with the push of the "A" button (to make it easier for families there will be a nice pop-up graphic displaying that you should press the "A" button and at the exact moment when the combo links that graphic turns highlighted to show that that is the exact brief flash of a precise moment you have to press in order to cancel it) at the exact instant after they try to link up a combo after they shine you and instead you pull off a multiple hit combo yourself having charged up your combo meter earlier and you make it all the way back to the stage!
7. the third final thing they forgot was to extend the smash concept and to create a miini-game where a giant red dragon boss on the side of the screen spits soccer balls (which turn into a fireball after u hit it in brawl) at u and you smash the balls back at it to kill it that's basic concept they forgot smashing concept directional influence, etc., this concept can be expanded in alot of directions, of course before you reach this boss level you have to killl off hordes of enemy minions flying around the screen or something and smash stuff back at them as well, (or just a simple extension of multi-man melee turning it into flying enemies instead of grounded enemies, where you have enemies flying around the screen instead shooting stuff at you and you have to kill them all, etc.) such as a billion samuses on the sides fire straight missles and homing missles at you that constantly chase you and you either have to smash the missles back at the samuses or it's just survival mode and you can smash missles back towards other missles or just hit them to get rid of them, also a protect peach or zelda mode perhaps where enemies fire missles at peach and you have to get rid of them and occassionally soccer balls drop down which u can use to kill the enemies on the sides or top of the screen, or they simply shoot soccer balls at peach and you have to shield her and hit them back at the enemies, also this protect peach or protect zelda (peach or zelda can or cannot also attack and protect themselves) can evolve into a stand-alone scenario (this is a good idea in events mode that they can consider evolving into a stand alone thing), also i mean they really should make the adventure mode plausible to be played competitively and also you have to survive in the end and defeat a boss with a points system just like traditional platform games like in megaman 9, also you can have a survival mode where the screen just scrolls sideways or where the screen is still and you just move sideways and see how many baddies and/or bosses you can kill before you die.
8. now here comes the *optional* part (this can be a gameplay option under special modes where if people like it they can turn it on in tourneys, etc.) about the force meter (may i note that the use of these forces can be made *extremely* indiscernible and just make it so that the game flows a little tad bit smoother so it isn't always the same immovable mass possibly the reason being because this game is meant to flow a little and isn't entirely like traditional fighters especially at melee/close ranges where the fight essentially becomes locked and is just a stupid i dare you you dare me to attack and if you miss and i'm able to throw up my shield and block then i throw you type-of-game; and this is also still totally optional as some people may prefer to play oldschool style without the use of this force), you can use the force to attract (perhaps you only want the repel feature which i will describe later) him to you ever so slightly from a melee/close distance if you don't have the meter charged up (with little japanese line graphics radiating outwards (a non-comic book non-cheesy version) pulling him in or use the force to repel him (hey you can figure out a way to incorporate this into the game's theme can't u? lol) (this allows for more varied melee tactics when you are playing up-close with the opponent, when you pull him in it starts out slower then he will be dragged into you a bit quicker ever so slightly up to a certain point, perhaps you can also drag him behind you...this allows for new melee tactics...you can use the control pad for this...if you have the force meter charged up you can use it farther away but to a lesser extent and also when they're closer it becomes more powerful if you have your force meter charged up-you can charge up your force meter based on a net total of how much activity you do-the more and faster you run and move and jump around you gain a minimal amount, when you pull off blank attacks in the air (just attacking thin air without actually touching your opponent in order to build up your meter) you gain a slightly increased amount, when you hit your opponent and do an increasing amount of damage you gain more, and the more combos you pull off successfully you gain the most, etc., also the heavier, stronger and slower the character the more powerful their use of force...so they can use it to repel you and keep you away in order to pick away at, damage, and break your shield, it also gives them a better chance of hitting you if they can use it properly because the force will only attract strongest if you can place it properly and there are certain areas where the force has a very weak attraction and repel when you are grounded it is harder to pull you in, when you are in the air it is easier, so if a fox decides to run at you blindly jump in the air and kick you and you are Ganandorf you just say: COME HERE! pull him in and do your justice. it takes into account the momentum at which the opponent is running towards you as well as many other factors (when they are directly above you it should be harder to drag them in otherwise it would be dumb, and you can only use the force when you are facing the opponent so if you're facing right you press right (forward) in order to repel him or pull him directly in front of you and backwards (left) in order to attract him to you or attract him to directly behind where you're standing (if he's directly behind you on the right and you are facing the other way facing left then you can press left and *repel* or in other words pull him in front of you [NOTE: Since you have your back turned to him normally you wouldn't be able to use the force but if he's directly behind you you can pull him in front of you although it will be much harder and the force will be weaker than if when you are facing him and you try to pull him in back of you, and vice versa when he's on the right and you are facing him directly you can *attract* or pull him behind you), note: perhaps only heavier, slower, and bigger characters should have this ability as a B-Special move and perhaps only the "repel" ability and not the attract ability because having repel enables them to keep a distance between themselves and their enemies since they are slower so they can more easily dish out punishment.
9. you should be able to control directional influence a little bit this can be an option because it sort of ruins the game and makes placement hits impossible as well as ruining the flow of the game, but if you are able to somehow incorporate the "force" concept of repelling and attraction when your opponent is linking combos into you then you might be able to avoid the combos more easier and it gives you a way to avoid combos...(all in all it might just be a good idea to ditch the whole combo meter idea it's up to you guys, and just have combos pulled off normally with the normal way of doing it and reverting back to normal gameplay)
10. they knew about the final smash concept, (or adding supers to smash), but they refused to add supers, why (the supers don't necessarily have to be damaging or have knockback they can be used for utility purposes (cause you already have your charge-up smash attack?)
11. also give Ganon some shield-breaking or undodgable moves (well you do'nt necessarily need this as it is difficult to pull off the neutral standing dodge anyway as it takes too long to press those buttons which is a perfect setup that sakurai invented) that do extra shield damage or break the shield entirely he really needs it he sux (much less giving him a heck of alot more damage to begin with make him sort of like a Hugo character in Street fighter 3rd strike), the shield relaly regenerates way too fast, plus when you dizzy it shouldn't be for that long i really don't know why street fighter makes them dizzy so long, it should be only for a short time, and also projectiles need to do alot more damage honestly projectiles are quite weak
12. all cheesiness aside, this is where the real elite gameplay is...obviously smash gameplay (technical aspects and variety), moves and controls and fighting system, are not that tight and great and numerous yet, they really need to add in a ton more moves, making use of the diagonals especially to add more B-Special moves in (this game was meant to be played with alot of special moves but they opted for only 4 different B-Special ones with some characters only having three)...(it seems it isn't family accessible but in reality you can tune the diagonals to make them less sensitive), extra buttons, button combos and controls, directional pad etc.), (the current system is far too bad, cancels don't count as parries we need alot of extra stuff to add depth and difficulty as they do with serious fighting games like what they have with street fighter, etc. whatever else they have i do not know as i am not a game designer, i know this game is meant to be played flat but when it's too flat it becomes stupid, all these new concepts that i've suggested probably won't work well anyway with the current messy Smash fighting system and moves...
13. even though things aren't family accessible doesn't mean it can't still be a family game (other than adding diagonals which probably wouldn't work for families), because as smash is now, when played at a low level it can be for families for fun but it doesn't mean that you can't become very good at it and indulge in its complexities as well...hmm...if only there were a professional version of smash with a mature theme that would be cool, the characters would be much better too..."strider-type characters with a giant mechanical saber-tooth pet and also a flying mechnical gundam fighter that spreads lasers down at its victims in true japanese style, the possibilities for the Smash concept are endless (just look at the game Collosseum made by Shortfuse Games whose teammate Erik Svedang won 1st place at the Independent Games Festival it is a circular 3rd person fantasy gladiator arena where besides fighting 3 other players you also fight hordes of enemies and bosses a low budget game for Xbox Community Game download, this sort of builds off the concept of Defence of the Ancients [DOTA] or League of Legends which is the title for the commercial version in making, also there was an old game called Powerstone which featured slanted top-down square 3d arena fighting for 4 players, this is the evolvement of the fighting game genre, when linked to true 3d-fighting games (Final Fantasy Dissidia is progressing in this direction), smash is by far not dead yet: multiplayer fighting games are a genre of its own still in its infancy! (i wish blizzard would've not canceled their plans to join the console market they might've contributed to this category...) Smash has many secrets to discover!
i don't have that much time to think and i'm also tired so i'll leave it at this, otherwise i would think of new techs/fighting system ideas that i would add
