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Such Villainy!!! Should More Villains be included in Smash 4?

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majora_787

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So since Villains aren't playable in the main series which is already centered around the protagonists, if they're not allowed to be playable in the non-canon spinoffs either, where are people supposed to be able to play as quality antagonist characters? :Y

There is literally nowhere else for them. This is the kind of game where it makes SENSE to put them.
 

AustarusIV

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I'm worried that this might be the first game where we don't get a single antagonistic newcomer. Melee introduced Bowser and Ganondorf (who was a last-minute clone) into the roster, and Brawl gave us Wario (an anti-hero), King Dedede (who was a baddie in the first game), Meta Knight (another anti-hero), and Wolf (yet another anti-hero).

Ridley and King K. Rool are the most ideal candidates for this game, but Sakurai might see them as mere "bosses" that need to be beaten up. If Dark Pit somehow manages to get in over these two, my opinion of him will go down even further.
 
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JaidynReiman

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I'd be more disappointed that he got in over Hades and Medusa.
I'd be disappointed in all of the above. Dark Pit doesn't deserve to be a separate playable character. At best, make him like the Male Wii Fit Trainer; his own voice, black wings, and separate recolors, but still just an alt of Pit.


I'm worried that this might be the first game where we don't get a single antagonistic newcomer. Melee introduced Bowser and Ganondorf (who was a last-minute clone) into the roster, and Brawl gave us Wario (an anti-hero), King Dedede (who was a baddie in the first game), Meta Knight (another anti-hero), and Wolf (yet another anti-hero).

Ridley and King K. Rool are the most ideal candidates for this game, but Sakurai might see them as mere "bosses" that need to be beaten up. If Dark Pit somehow manages to get in over this two, my opinion of him will go down even further.
Mewtwo was promoted as a villain character in Melee, so he still counts. If they bring back the same Mewtwo, he'll still be a villain now. That version of Mewtwo was based on a movie where Mewtwo was the antagonist, and he was pitted in the final event match alongside Ganondorf and Bowser, so if Mewtwo comes back I'd bet he'd be based on the original evil Mewtwo.

That said, Ridley and K. Rool are still the most ideal additions to have "true villains" for. They're both EXTREMELY iconic and central to their respective franchises. DK would've never become a hero had it not been for King K. Rool, a lot of people fail to take that into consideration as well.


You need a good villain to have a good hero.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Indeed, a hero's only as good as the villain makes them. To say that villains can't be "identified with" or anything like heroes can is pretty baloney too. I know many that can identify with certain antagonists, myself included.

I don't think someone should get in over someone else in Smash simply on the verdict that they're a villain though (same goes for sidekicks and female characters), but based on the characters' individual values and what they bring to the table.
 
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They've been quite generous with the villains already, IMO. We've had playable villains, antiheroes and ne'er-do-wells from Mario, Zelda, Pokémon, Kirby and even Star Fox.
 

JaidynReiman

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Indeed, a hero's only as good as the villain makes them. To say that villains can't be "identified with" or anything like heroes can is pretty baloney too. I know many that can identify with certain antagonists, myself included.

I don't think someone should get in over someone else in Smash simply on the verdict that they're a villain though (same goes for sidekicks and female characters), but based on the characters' individual values and what they bring to the table.
Exactly. I think that being a villain should be taken into consideration, but they shouldn't be added just for being villains but what they can bring to the game. Unlike how lazily Ganondorf was added; he has LOADS of untapped potential to be explored.
 

bilbo43

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dont ask me why but when ghirihim was first revealed in skyward sword images of Tabuu went through my mind. And everytime i play the SSE I have thoughts of Ghirihim at the end as being a preevolved form of the entity we verse. I know they are probably not connected at all but it gets me thinking that maybe ghirihim can be included as a villain for a stage or adventure mode.
 

BKupa666

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Mewtwo is neither a newcomer nor a villain.

ITT: Two villains, an antihero, and three protagonist-antagonist flip-floppers are "generous."

The opportunity to throw in one or two unmistakably evil villains with this game is too good to pass up. . .which is likely why Sakurai probably did pass it up in favor of turning them into "Stage Hazards You Can Hit" (credit to @ UltimateWario UltimateWario ).

The part about people not getting attached to villains and not caring about playing as them is wrong in so many ways. Personally, I can play as a generic protagonist any day of the week, but Smash is the single once-in-a-lifetime opportunity I have to play as someone like Ganondorf, or Ridley, or K. Rool outside of crap spin-offs. I get to exact revenge on the heroes that have been beating my character senseless for decades. How is that even remotely a boring hypothetical?
 
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JaidynReiman

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Mewtwo is neither a newcomer nor a villain.

ITT: Two villains, an antihero, and three protagonist-antagonist flip-floppers are "generous."

The opportunity to throw in one or two unmistakably evil villains with this game is too good to pass up. . .which is likely why Sakurai probably did pass it up in favor of turning them into "Stage Hazards You Can Hit" (credit to @ UltimateWario UltimateWario ).

The part about people not getting attached to villains and not caring about playing as them is wrong in so many ways. Personally, I can play as a generic protagonist any day of the week, but Smash is the single once-in-a-lifetime opportunity I have to play as someone like Ganondorf, or Ridley, or K. Rool outside of crap spin-offs.
The Mewtwo in Melee was based on the villainous Mewtwo from one of the early movies featuring Mewtwo, and he was treated as a villain character in Melee. There's many different Pokemon, and in the case of Mewtwo, that specific Mewtwo was a villain. If they bring back the same Mewtwo, he'd still be a villain.

That said, agreed that Mewtwo is not a newcomer and he only vaguely counts as a villain. And it is easy to grow attached to villain characters. You can't have a hero without a good villain, and good villains tend to stick around for a long, long time.
 

BKupa666

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The Mewtwo in Melee was based on the villainous Mewtwo from one of the early movies featuring Mewtwo, and he was treated as a villain character in Melee. There's many different Pokemon, and in the case of Mewtwo, that specific Mewtwo was a villain. If they bring back the same Mewtwo, he'd still be a villain.
Dedede was treated as a villain character in Brawl (in an event match just like Mewtwo), and yet he's back in more of an anti-hero form this time around, which is what will probably happen with Mewtwo as well (based off of the latest Pokemon movie).

Basically, I'm looking ahead to a time when people are potentially preaching about how "We've got Mewtwo, stop whining about there not being any villains!!" and nipping that in the bud right now. He was only vaguely a villain back then, and he's a protagonist in his modern movie version now. It's only a step above saying "Oh, you have large Miis (who aren't even confirmed to be heavyweights) who you can't play online and who aren't actual characters, stop complaining about no heavyweights!"
 

JaidynReiman

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Dedede was treated as a villain character in Brawl (in an event match just like Mewtwo), and yet he's back in more of an anti-hero form this time around, which is what will probably happen with Mewtwo as well (based off of the latest Pokemon movie).

Basically, I'm looking ahead to a time when people are potentially preaching about how "We've got Mewtwo, stop whining about there not being any villains!!" and nipping that in the bud right now. He was only vaguely a villain back then, and he's a protagonist in his modern movie version now. It's only a step above saying "Oh, you have large Miis (who aren't even confirmed to be heavyweights) who you can't play online and who aren't actual characters, stop complaining about no heavyweights!"
Oh yeah, I fully agree, we need some real villains for a change and Mewtwo won't cut it. Granted, as I've stated before, they need to be iconic villains from important franchises; heroes always come first. Regardless, there are two perfectly good villains who are both extremely iconic and popular that would fit perfectly as playable additions in this game.

Although I personally believe that one of them has a 90% chance of being in the game right now (Ridley), which really helps the other one, too (K. Rool, whose always been my top pick for this game but I never thought he had any chance until I saw the Kremlings in Smash Run).


There really aren't any other "iconic" Nintendo villains at this time who would fit, all the other centrally important ones have been picked. Granted, Kirby could get one of its true villains, but they're not central characters like Dedede.
 

Zuby

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I like the idea of featuring a trio from the series as the protagonist, deuteragonist/macguffin and antagonist.

Examples:
Mario (protagonist); Luigi (deuteragonist); Bowser (antagonist)
Donkey Kong (p); Diddy Kong (d); King K. Rool (a)
Link (p); Zelda (d/m); Ganondorf (a)

Of course this logically leads us to...


Hades!

As for the Mewtwo question, definitely not a villain but effectively the end boss of the first game, so make of that what you will...
 

Ryan.

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Oh wow I never posted on this thread. I do think we should have more villains. I believe right now we only have Bowser and King De De De? We could definitely use some more, like the ones always requested: Ridley and King K. Rool.
 

Geno Mallow

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King K Rool and Ridley seem like obvious choices to me. Skull Kid would be great too
 

majora_787

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I'm still maintaining the gut feeling that we haven't seen the last of Kid Icarus, which would lead to Medusa most likely. Though K. Rool and Ridley as it sits now are definitely the highest choices.
 

JaidynReiman

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I'm still maintaining the gut feeling that we haven't seen the last of Kid Icarus, which would lead to Medusa most likely. Though K. Rool and Ridley as it sits now are definitely the highest choices.
You better believe it. They're constantly at the top of the polls and they're the most requested Nintendo characters (even though Palutena was at the top of everyone's speculation list :p). I wouldn't mind Medusa, but only if we get K. Rool and Ridley first. At least K. Rool and I could care less who else gets added to this game, everything else is icing on the cake (although a Ganondorf revamp would be HEAVILY appreciated, Sakurai! At least switch around most of his moves even if he keeps some of his old ones).
 

majora_787

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You better believe it. They're constantly at the top of the polls and they're the most requested Nintendo characters (even though Palutena was at the top of everyone's speculation list :p). I wouldn't mind Medusa, but only if we get K. Rool and Ridley first. At least K. Rool and I could care less who else gets added to this game, everything else is icing on the cake (although a Ganondorf revamp would be HEAVILY appreciated, Sakurai! At least switch around most of his moves even if he keeps some of his old ones).
I honestly think they're all likely. I mean I imagine if it were some tight competition then Ridley and K. Rool would make it first, but it doesn't even feel like that to me at this point.
 

Megadoomer

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As far as new villains go, K. Rool and Ridley seem to be the most likely choices in my eyes (and if neither one gets in, I'll seriously question Sakurai's priorities). Either Medusa or Hades would be a distant third, but I'd have no problem if they didn't get in since Kid Icarus is getting quite a lot of content as is.
 

majora_787

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I can pretty easily see Sakurai Kirbying Kid Icarus just for this game with Medusa, though I guess we'll have to find out.
 

Shroob

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As much as I love Villains, I really don't think we're going to be getting any new ones. We've only gotten what, 2 newcomers from previously established franchises? Rosalina and Greninja? And if Gematsu is correct, that's 3 with Chrom. This game feels like it's more about adding new series than padding older ones.

Just pray that Wolf isn't cut.
 
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Arcadenik

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As far as new villains go, K. Rool and Ridley seem to be the most likely choices in my eyes (and if neither one gets in, I'll seriously question Sakurai's priorities). Either Medusa or Hades would be a distant third, but I'd have no problem if they didn't get in since Kid Icarus is getting quite a lot of content as is.
Mario series already has a lot of content as is and Rosalina was still added.

I wouldn't mind playing as Medusa. She's a recurring villain and has storyline importance... and I think she would be pretty unique... especially if she is portrayed as a naga with the power to turn people into stone.
 

Oracle_Summon

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Mario series already has a lot of content as is and Rosalina was still added.

I wouldn't mind playing as Medusa. She's a recurring villain and has storyline importance... and I think she would be pretty unique... especially if she is portrayed as a naga with the power to turn people into stone.
Sounds like a Final Smash to me.
 

AustarusIV

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Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing Medusa playable...just so long as Ridley and K. Rool are as well. If they weren't, I would be a little upset that KI, a minor series, has more playable characters than Metroid and DK.
 

Shroob

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Mario series already has a lot of content as is and Rosalina was still added.

I wouldn't mind playing as Medusa. She's a recurring villain and has storyline importance... and I think she would be pretty unique... especially if she is portrayed as a naga with the power to turn people into stone.
Gorgon. GORGON. Naga are like centuars, but have the bottom halves of Snakes. :p
 

Arcadenik

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Gorgon. GORGON. Naga are like centuars, but have the bottom halves of Snakes. :p
Tell that to the people who make Castlevania games. :awesome:

But okay, fine, Medusa can have her legs... but she still needs to have the power to turn people into stone.

God... SSB5 needs to have both Simon Belmont and Medusa (Kid Icarus)...

So what would that do? I haven't played Kid Icarus in very long.

Boss fight starts at 30:45.
 

MasterOfKnees

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Mario series already has a lot of content as is and Rosalina was still added.
Mario is the biggest video game franchise of all-time though, that's completely justified. Kid Icarus is one of the smaller franchises in Smash, one newcomer is plenty already.
 

JaidynReiman

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As much as I love Villains, I really don't think we're going to be getting any new ones. We've only gotten what, 2 newcomers from previously established franchises? Rosalina and Greninja? And if Gematsu is correct, that's 3 with Chrom. This game feels like it's more about adding new series than padding older ones.

Just pray that Wolf isn't cut.
With the leak right now, we've got the same amount of new franchises as in Brawl. I'd be surprised if we didn't have a few additional existing franchises getting padded out.
 

BKupa666

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I'd have enjoyed seeing Hades instead of Palutena as a Sakurai's Baby Rep. Now that Palutena's there, though, he can wait until he actually has a reasonable fan following, and an organic one to boot, not due to "OMGOMGOMG NEW KID ICARUS DIRECTED BY SAKURAI!!!!"

Haven't followed too many Hades and Medusa debates, but although I can relate to the Medusa side of supporting the antagonist who's actually been there since the beginning, "the beginning" for her is just one game, before she becomes a prop to a Sakurai OC. I think, unless we're going the clone route with Fallen Angel Pit, Hades would be the next-in-line.
 
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JaidynReiman

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I'd have enjoyed seeing Hades instead of Palutena as a Sakurai's Baby Rep. Now that Palutena's there, though, he can wait until he actually has a reasonable fan following, and an organic one to boot, not due to "OMGOMGOMG NEW KID ICARUS DIRECTED BY SAKURAI!!!!"

Haven't followed too many Hades and Medusa debates, but although I can relate to the Medusa side of supporting the antagonist who's actually been there since the beginning, "the beginning" for her is just one game, before she becomes a prop to a Sakurai OC. I think, unless we're going the clone route with Fallen Angel Pit, Hades would be the next-in-line.
The fact that Medusa only has one game up on Hades is the only real detractor, but hey, Sakurai gave Medusa a badass new design as well, and Hades is supposed to be way more powerful than both Medusa and Palutena. It'd make more sense for Medusa to be playable than Palutena (plus Medusa would be the rare FEMALE villain rep).
 

BKupa666

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The fact that Medusa only has one game up on Hades is the only real detractor, but hey, Sakurai gave Medusa a badass new design as well, and Hades is supposed to be way more powerful than both Medusa and Palutena. It'd make more sense for Medusa to be playable than Palutena (plus Medusa would be the rare FEMALE villain rep).
People were convinced Medusa was a shoo-in for Smash from second one of the first Uprising trailer, all the way up until release when Palutena took things over hardcore.

Character-wise, I'd go with Hades in a heartbeat, what with him being a deliciously flamboyant troll and all, but I think Medusa would have the better moveset, what with her turning targets to stone and maybe summoning snakes from her hair, whereas Hades' attacks are all basically generic beams (at least from watching his fight on YouTube).
 
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