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Q&A Structured Query Thread - R.O.B. Q&A

Syde7

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You bring up a lot of good points. Sheik is a hard MU for sure. But as long as you're careful to dodge the bouncing fish offstage, and don't air-dodge Sheik's down throw (as sheiks go for the vanish air-dodge read sometimes) it's pretty hard for her to kill with the bair nerf. Customs are legal in my region, so ROB's custom up-b makes it a lot easier to avoid offstage kills. Also, I have had a sheik grab my gyro and camp using her custom needles, which was way harder to deal with than I thought lol. Luckily, not many Sheik players do that though. Still, do you have any ideas how to handle that? Sheik just shields my laser and when I shield her needles my shield is basically gone. It basically forces me to approach with nair and I usually end up getting punished :/
We play with customs on here as well in NC, though that might be changing in the short term. Regarding BF on custom up+B, we've got a few Sheiks here ... (our #2 PR player, who took a game off ZeRo when he visited NC, our #3 has a Sheik as well, and so does our #6. I'm #7 and have a Sheik secondary for the bad MUs but am probably going to switch to something else... so, the skill gaps are there, but they aren't as large as if I was RandomROB420 vs a PR'd player) ... and they all run the penetrating needles + grenade custom (forgot the name of it, its #2; that being said.. I still struggle and sometimes lose to like... one Sheik outside the PR whom the opponents he loses to I regularly beat... just bc of the MU).

Anyway... regarding BF vs. up+B, tbh... the custom up+B makes it easier to avoid offstage kills like you said. But, I find that its something whose utility decreases after the Sheik has seen the trajectory/burst speed a handful of times, as we're still pinned to the non-action frames of up+B, plus... our options are limited while using the up+B. One super effective thing Sheik can do is BF kick off the edge of the stage, and rebound. The rebound gives Sheik a ton of options. She can rebound off of the stage, and literally coast downward (almost to the diagonal blast zone) and use the 2nd kick, and still make it back if she has her 2nd jump; she can cover the straight vertical the same way, as well as a huge arc above & parallel to the stage. Considering that most of the time your aerials will lose or trade with the kick, its a good exchange for Sheik. People might think the rebound is just for flash, but it significantly improves the range & utility of BF as an edgeguarding tool.

Also, outside of the airdodge->Vanish read, Vanish has some solid KO stuffs. She can run->up+B near the edge of the stage->results in gliding off with the explosion happening offstage at various distances depending on where she started the up+B on stage. This covers a good deal of the horizontal area parallel to the stage. She can just go for a raw Vanish off-stage to intercept up+B, or use it to "finish" her edgeguard. Finally, she can just ledge-hop/ledge-drop, drift to where she wants & Vanish as we try to recover to the stage (kind of like a Shino stall in Melee... but, not instant/quickly). This covers virtually every angle we can approach the ledge from (aside from descending toward the stage... which is a bad look for ROB vs her due to U-air and Vanish).

But, to cover your question about grabbing the gyro. Its rough when anyone gets our gyro, but Sheik seems super tough. I've had the gyro taken a handful of times, and its a pain, for the exact reasons you mentioned. We lose a zoning & set-up tool, and are relegated to lasers, fade-back N-airs, and fade-back F-airs, and probably some pivot grab stuff. Plus, if she throws the gyro or z-drops it and hits you... it leads to all kinds of stuff.

To avoid the needle shield pressure... try to keep out of range/at the edge of the range of needles (hard to do depending on stage) and pepper with SH lasers. SH will keep you above the needles if you space wrong or she advances, and you can probably hit her in her cooldown. Its not guaranteed, and it can be a bad option if she is in range to needle cancel -> Bouncing fish (over the laser, and still have the gyro) if she reads it.

I try to stay as mobile as possible while remaining as safe as I can. Like I said, landing chip-damage lasers in different ways (b-reverses, wavebounces, SHs, FJs) on a needle camping Sheik is key. Most will see it as a negative trade in some ways, or get frustrated. That can cause them to to just dump the gyro and come in. For the patient ones... I find it super difficult to do anything unless I can bait her somehow into getting rid of the gyro. This can be done by doing something that will get you punished, but where the proper punish is an aerial or tilt. Granted they can z-drop-->Aerial regrab the gyro, but the timing is a bit strict and may not be possible due to the spacing you vs. the chosen punish. Also, an aerial or tilt punish at mid-percents is gonna net you a ton of damage... so you have to make the call of "is it worth it to get my gyro back? Is it worth it to get my gyro back... only to have them take it again about 30 seconds later?"

Best advice is not to leave it on the ground at a point you can't reach (outside of a ledge trap or platform landing trap) and use it as something to force them into an action (jumping/shielding), either as a gyro-shot, or item-in-hand-throw.

All of this is much harder to accomplish in practice vs. paper, and is really dynamic and changing based on what's going on in the match.
 
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ROBnWatch

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@ Mister Eric Mister Eric , did you ever find out if it's possible to switch directions while charging the gyro with the Wiimote sideways???
 
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Mister Eric

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@ Mister Eric Mister Eric , did you ever find out if it's possible to switch directions while charging the gyro with the Wiimote sideways???
Nope, I'm the worst. Put it on my calendar, got notified for it when I wasn't home, forgot. gg.
I'll set another reminder for you dude.
I sincerely apologize.
 

Crome

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@ Mister Eric Mister Eric , did you ever find out if it's possible to switch directions while charging the gyro with the Wiimote sideways???
I don't see why you couldnt. It's just inputting down b and then the other direction really fast. It's probably harder, but I don't see why you couldn't.
 
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The_ViRu5

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We play with customs on here as well in NC, though that might be changing in the short term. Regarding BF on custom up+B, we've got a few Sheiks here ... (our #2 PR player, who took a game off ZeRo when he visited NC, our #3 has a Sheik as well, and so does our #6. I'm #7 and have a Sheik secondary for the bad MUs but am probably going to switch to something else... so, the skill gaps are there, but they aren't as large as if I was RandomROB420 vs a PR'd player) ... and they all run the penetrating needles + grenade custom (forgot the name of it, its #2; that being said.. I still struggle and sometimes lose to like... one Sheik outside the PR whom the opponents he loses to I regularly beat... just bc of the MU).

Anyway... regarding BF vs. up+B, tbh... the custom up+B makes it easier to avoid offstage kills like you said. But, I find that its something whose utility decreases after the Sheik has seen the trajectory/burst speed a handful of times, as we're still pinned to the non-action frames of up+B, plus... our options are limited while using the up+B. One super effective thing Sheik can do is BF kick off the edge of the stage, and rebound. The rebound gives Sheik a ton of options. She can rebound off of the stage, and literally coast downward (almost to the diagonal blast zone) and use the 2nd kick, and still make it back if she has her 2nd jump; she can cover the straight vertical the same way, as well as a huge arc above & parallel to the stage. Considering that most of the time your aerials will lose or trade with the kick, its a good exchange for Sheik. People might think the rebound is just for flash, but it significantly improves the range & utility of BF as an edgeguarding tool.

Also, outside of the airdodge->Vanish read, Vanish has some solid KO stuffs. She can run->up+B near the edge of the stage->results in gliding off with the explosion happening offstage at various distances depending on where she started the up+B on stage. This covers a good deal of the horizontal area parallel to the stage. She can just go for a raw Vanish off-stage to intercept up+B, or use it to "finish" her edgeguard. Finally, she can just ledge-hop/ledge-drop, drift to where she wants & Vanish as we try to recover to the stage (kind of like a Shino stall in Melee... but, not instant/quickly). This covers virtually every angle we can approach the ledge from (aside from descending toward the stage... which is a bad look for ROB vs her due to U-air and Vanish).

But, to cover your question about grabbing the gyro. Its rough when anyone gets our gyro, but Sheik seems super tough. I've had the gyro taken a handful of times, and its a pain, for the exact reasons you mentioned. We lose a zoning & set-up tool, and are relegated to lasers, fade-back N-airs, and fade-back F-airs, and probably some pivot grab stuff. Plus, if she throws the gyro or z-drops it and hits you... it leads to all kinds of stuff.

To avoid the needle shield pressure... try to keep out of range/at the edge of the range of needles (hard to do depending on stage) and pepper with SH lasers. SH will keep you above the needles if you space wrong or she advances, and you can probably hit her in her cooldown. Its not guaranteed, and it can be a bad option if she is in range to needle cancel -> Bouncing fish (over the laser, and still have the gyro) if she reads it.

I try to stay as mobile as possible while remaining as safe as I can. Like I said, landing chip-damage lasers in different ways (b-reverses, wavebounces, SHs, FJs) on a needle camping Sheik is key. Most will see it as a negative trade in some ways, or get frustrated. That can cause them to to just dump the gyro and come in. For the patient ones... I find it super difficult to do anything unless I can bait her somehow into getting rid of the gyro. This can be done by doing something that will get you punished, but where the proper punish is an aerial or tilt. Granted they can z-drop-->Aerial regrab the gyro, but the timing is a bit strict and may not be possible due to the spacing you vs. the chosen punish. Also, an aerial or tilt punish at mid-percents is gonna net you a ton of damage... so you have to make the call of "is it worth it to get my gyro back? Is it worth it to get my gyro back... only to have them take it again about 30 seconds later?"

Best advice is not to leave it on the ground at a point you can't reach (outside of a ledge trap or platform landing trap) and use it as something to force them into an action (jumping/shielding), either as a gyro-shot, or item-in-hand-throw.

All of this is much harder to accomplish in practice vs. paper, and is really dynamic and changing based on what's going on in the match.
Wow, that's a lot of good advice, thanks!

Yeah, I also have a pocket sheik. In fact the only person to needle camp me was Hitaku (a PR sheik from NorCal) he ended up timing me out game one and then I dittoed him game two and two stocked him haha. I haven't played sheik in bracket in a while because I still like playing ROB more, even though sheik is clearly better.

I actually competed in a NorCal regional last weekend and played, and beat, a highly ranked Sheik form SoCal, known for beating ESAM a while back. I'm not nearly as good at giving advice as you are, but I can post the match if you want to see what I did.
 
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ROBnWatch

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Nope, I'm the worst. Put it on my calendar, got notified for it when I wasn't home, forgot. gg.
I'll set another reminder for you dude.
I sincerely apologize.
OK, thanks.

I don't see why you couldnt. It's just inputting down b and then the other direction really fast. It's probably harder, but I don't see why you couldn't.
True, but I haven't tried it myself do to a multitude of things. I have tried it a few times, but all I get is a full charge in one direction, and can't switch to the other. Probably because I'm not as fast with the controls as I should be or it's just not possible with the Wiimote sideways.
 

Pixel_

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I have tried it a few times, but all I get is a full charge in one direction, and can't switch to the other. Probably because I'm not as fast with the controls as I should be or it's just not possible with the Wiimote sideways.
It is possible with the Wii remote, I'm pretty sure of it. You mean B-reverse, right? There's several tutorials of how to do it with and without the C-stick.
Just do the method without the C-stick; you'll have to use the D-pad instead of an analog stick, though. It's still sort of hard, but it's possible.
 
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ROBnWatch

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It is possible with the Wii remote, I'm pretty sure of it. You mean B-reverse, right? There's several tutorials of how to do it with and without the C-stick.
Just do the method without the C-stick; you'll have to use the D-pad instead of an analog stick, though. It's still sort of hard, but it's possible.
Cool. Thanks for the information.
 

Syde7

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Wow, that's a lot of good advice, thanks!

Yeah, I also have a pocket sheik. In fact the only person to needle camp me was Hitaku (a PR sheik from NorCal) he ended up timing me out game one and then I dittoed him game two and two stocked him haha. I haven't played sheik in bracket in a while because I still like playing ROB more, even though sheik is clearly better.

I actually competed in a NorCal regional last weekend and played, and beat, a highly ranked Sheik form SoCal, known for beating ESAM a while back. I'm not nearly as good at giving advice as you are, but I can post the match if you want to see what I did.
Yes plz. I need more vids v sheik, as that mu is buns, so more ideas to incorporate is always a plus.
 

The_ViRu5

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Yes plz. I need more vids v sheik, as that mu is buns, so more ideas to incorporate is always a plus.
Unfortunately, the recordings were uploaded in large chunks as opposed to individual sets. I'll link to the time the match started.

Me (ROB 1231) vs NME Zex (Sheik 2211): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsEDmo3lZsM&feature=youtu.be&t=1m38s
I'm not using the trip gyro and the Sheik isn't using a custom up-b despite what the annoying commentators say.

Also, I have a set in there were I take a game off of 6WX. Atm I don't wanna look through the videos to find it it, but maybe later I'll post it in the ROB video thread when I'm feeling less lazy lol
 

ROBnWatch

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Can somebody link me to the R.O.B. social? Thanks!
 

Crome

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What and when are some effective moments to use z drop on a gyro?
Put it on the ledge to set up for a gyrospike, or just use it when edge guarding to limit the opponents options. Covering roll/tech options, applying shield pressure.

There's tons more and smart people like @ Syde7 Syde7 and @ Mister Eric Mister Eric could go more in depth on it.
 
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ROBnWatch

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Oh ya.

Gyrospike (adj.): When one throws a gyro from above onto an opponent near the ledge, and proceeds with a Down Air to finish them.

The hit from the gyro should send the opponent right into the Down Air hitbox. And then it's alllll over. :):chuckle:
 
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Lochy

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Oh ya.

Gyrospike (adj.): When one throws a gyro from above onto an opponent near the ledge, and proceeds with a Down Air to finish them.

The hit from the gyro should send the opponent right into the Down Air hitbox. And then it's alllll over. :):chuckle:
Good advice yet most opponents don't get hit by the gyro. I guess I just have to bait it out. :D
 
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ROBnWatch

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Good advice yet most opponents don't get hit by the gyro. I guess I just have to bait it out. :D
Ya. Works better on CPUs lol. I don't have any actual people that I can play against all the time so :p.
 

Lochy

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Ya. Works better on CPUs lol. I don't have any actual people that I can play against all the time so :p.
Many real opponents start to catch on to the shananigens (probably spelled that wrong) and airdodge. I guess you could go for a fastfall dair or a fastfall nair and catch them after the airdodge,
 

Syde7

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I think I've found a sexy, albeit situational way to get absurdly low % kills using D-throw -> U-air (like... 55%) when not in rage + ways to convert the D-throw->U-air (and therefore... stupidly low % kills) while we're in rage where it normaly depends on airdodge reads/baits. I need some further testing to see about DI, but if my theory is correct the DI doesn't really matter.

Edit: If it works, I'm calling it the razzle dazzle.
 
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Syde7

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHnTF4GQQDA

ROB can auto-cancel a short-hop up-air really easy this way. I'm not a fan of having c-stick set to attack tho.
I thought that was like... super common knowledge. Like 101 stuff. That doesn't even deserve to be named as a technique.

Being able to AC like, every aerial super easy is the BIGGEST universal benefit to having TJ on. The work-around is to set a shoulder button (R/L/Z) to jump. That's what I've got mine mapped to (L, to be exact) and SH Auto-cancelled U- and B- airs are a breeze. The only downside is that unless you mod the trigger by putting in an extra spring or two (and even then, it still occasionally happens) you'll occasionally wind up with full-jumps.

Edit: That being said, Im trying to transition myself to TJ on.
 
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The_ViRu5

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I thought that was like... super common knowledge. Like 101 stuff. That doesn't even deserve to be named as a technique.

Being able to AC like, every aerial super easy is the BIGGEST universal benefit to having TJ on. The work-around is to set a shoulder button (R/L/Z) to jump. That's what I've got mine mapped to (L, to be exact) and SH Auto-cancelled U- and B- airs are a breeze. The only downside is that unless you mod the trigger by putting in an extra spring or two (and even then, it still occasionally happens) you'll occasionally wind up with full-jumps.

Edit: That being said, Im trying to transition myself to TJ on.
Ummmm, I think you didn't see the most important part of the video (at least for ROB) https://youtu.be/BHnTF4GQQDA?t=4m9s
Idk if that's common knowledge. It wasn't for me. ROB's up-air is pretty hard to auto cancel otherwise (at least for me) and has more end lag than villager's, so I thought it was worth sharing.

So you're saying that you set L to jump, TJ off, and flick up and press the A button and you're able to short-hop up-air consistently? Because I tried with default controls yesterday and was only able to do it about half the time.
 

Syde7

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Ummmm, I think you didn't see the most important part of the video (at least for ROB) https://youtu.be/BHnTF4GQQDA?t=4m9s
Idk if that's common knowledge. It wasn't for me. ROB's up-air is pretty hard to auto cancel otherwise (at least for me) and has more end lag than villager's, so I thought it was worth sharing.

So you're saying that you set L to jump, TJ off, and flick up and press the A button and you're able to short-hop up-air consistently? Because I tried with default controls yesterday and was only able to do it about half the time.
No, I didn't miss it, I watched the whole thing, lol. Like, its really not hard to do. I promise.

With L Set to jump, I lightly tap L to get my short hop. At almost the same time (within the buffer window) I'll use up on the C-stick (as I have mine set to tilts, not smashes). It autocancels super cleanly, and isn't terribly difficult once you get the timing down. The only time I flub it is if I'm nervous and just too tense.

As long as you have your C-stick set to smash, I'm fairly sure that no matter what you do, your U-air is gonna come out as a JC U-smash.

TJ on is really superior across the board (even though I don't use it... but I am working to get back to it and when I transition back to it, I'll probably keep L as jump, or maybe switch L to special... not sure yet). The only downside to TJ on is fuxing up U-tilts, which isn't that bad to get used to, using a jump->up+B when trying to just up+B (and thereby wasting your second jump), or wasting your second jump trying to DI/drift when being launched.
 

The_ViRu5

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No, I didn't miss it, I watched the whole thing, lol. Like, its really not hard to do. I promise.

With L Set to jump, I lightly tap L to get my short hop. At almost the same time (within the buffer window) I'll use up on the C-stick (as I have mine set to tilts, not smashes). It autocancels super cleanly, and isn't terribly difficult once you get the timing down. The only time I flub it is if I'm nervous and just too tense.

As long as you have your C-stick set to smash, I'm fairly sure that no matter what you do, your U-air is gonna come out as a JC U-smash.

TJ on is really superior across the board (even though I don't use it... but I am working to get back to it and when I transition back to it, I'll probably keep L as jump, or maybe switch L to special... not sure yet). The only downside to TJ on is fuxing up U-tilts, which isn't that bad to get used to, using a jump->up+B when trying to just up+B (and thereby wasting your second jump), or wasting your second jump trying to DI/drift when being launched.
Wow, I did not know people knew about this already, this is all new to me lmao. Yeah I tried double sticking method and it's super easy that way to get the up-airs to auto cancel. However, I've been using default controls for a while, so getting used to c-stick not being smashes is going to take a while. Since I seem to be out of the loop for this "c-stick set to attack" thing, is there any other uses for it?
 

Syde7

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Wow, I did not know people knew about this already, this is all new to me lmao. Yeah I tried double sticking method and it's super easy that way to get the up-airs to auto cancel. However, I've been using default controls for a while, so getting used to c-stick not being smashes is going to take a while. Since I seem to be out of the loop for this "c-stick set to attack" thing, is there any other uses for it?
  • Biggest bonus is that it allows you to drift your aerials backward. If you notice, with C-stick set to Smash, when you run forward and do a SH F-air, but want to drift back to space it properly, you don't really "drift back", you just kinda... stop. With the C-stick set to attack you get more control over your momentum during aerials, ala Brawl/Melee.
  • Makes pivot-tilting significantly easier,imo
  • Gives you an option to U-tilt easily, even with tap jump on.
  • Personally, I find that it enables you to buffer aerials much more easily as you are relying on one button vs. 2
If you've been using default controls, and are super comfy with TJ on... I'd recommend leaving it on, and mapping C-stick to attack.
 

Artmastercorey

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When is a good time to punish a rob? It seems all his major attacks are safe and have little to no cooldown. He just attacks attacks attacks. Like for example when he does that spin attack/reflector I wait it on in shield the whole time, and as soon as he's down I should have a free grab but he's able to roll away. It seems like he can do alot of smash attacks or just attacks in general that should be punishable because Sakurai gave him so little cool down. So my question is when exactly is a good time to hit rob? I play toonlink myself.
 

ROBnWatch

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When is a good time to punish a rob? It seems all his major attacks are safe and have little to no cooldown. He just attacks attacks attacks. Like for example when he does that spin attack/reflector I wait it on in shield the whole time, and as soon as he's down I should have a free grab but he's able to roll away. It seems like he can do alot of smash attacks or just attacks in general that should be punishable because Sakurai gave him so little cool down. So my question is when exactly is a good time to hit rob? I play toonlink myself.
Well, if you're using Toon Link you're going to want to use Up Air on R.O.B. whenever he is recovering high. And your shield, when you're standing still or walking, can block our laser (not sure on gyro though) and pretty much any projectile. And whenever R.O.B. is recovering from the side of the stage, use your projectiles and/or some aerials to gimp him from coming back, since his recovery doesn't have as much vertical distance anymore.

I think these are more of tips than "how to hit R.O.B.", but I hope this somewhat helps. The others on this thread can probably give you better pointers, since I'm not too much into competitive Smash.
 

Syde7

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When is a good time to punish a rob? It seems all his major attacks are safe and have little to no cooldown. He just attacks attacks attacks. Like for example when he does that spin attack/reflector I wait it on in shield the whole time, and as soon as he's down I should have a free grab but he's able to roll away. It seems like he can do alot of smash attacks or just attacks in general that should be punishable because Sakurai gave him so little cool down. So my question is when exactly is a good time to hit rob? I play toonlink myself.
From anything outside of F-tilt range, as long as its horizontally... you can take your pick of projectiles to harass him with. They also stuff his approach. The key as TL is to know your zone, establish it, and maintain it. Once ROB gets inside that zone, he can be a bit of a pain for TL as I think most of our ground kit has better range & comparable speed, while our aerial kit is roughly equal. If ROB is far enough outside that zone, he can/will outcamp Toon Link.

Having a bomb in hand most times is an effective, and safe punish tool. Throw it when ROB lands from anything. If he shields it... no biggie. If he gets hit by it, you can get good hitconfirm follow-ups.
 
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