Strategies, Combos, Smelly Waft thread

[abcool]

How many people use running Bite?! I did it as a tech chase in 2.1 to beat spotdodges. It doesn't seem to be effective in 2.5 unless the opponent DI's it bite properly. Even then it's just a gimmick i guess.... but still a mixup.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

He generally has better options in that position (jump-canceled grab, weaving with aerial pokes, Forward-B/Dash Grab mix-up). Grounded Bite is usually better for catching certain moves; it's also a neat alternative to pivot grabbing in that you can run away and B-Reverse a Bite.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

Good stages to use an stages that should be banned

Anything with walls below the ledges like YS, Dracula's, or Wario Ware is incredible for Dair gimps

Just saiyan

Also, Dsmash > side taunt
Discuss

 

[#HBC | Joker]

punishing people's getup with shoulderbash is amazing. I don't know why I wasn't doing it all this time.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

punishing people's getup with shoulderbash is amazing. I don't know why I wasn't doing it all this time.

It's pretty safe, but it loses pretty hardcore to get-up attack. Still a low-risk, high-reward option, and you can Forward-B squat cancel to maintain pressure if you see it coming.

 

[Oracle]

I'm pretty sure if they getup attack your shoulderbash will go through it if its meaty enough. Generally if they miss a tech, I time the side B to where i'll be right on top of them if they get up attack

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Oh, I forgot about that! You're right; since it clanks with moves now, it should outright eat get-up attacks in that scenario.

Well, it still loses hard to "roll toward Wario," but you can mix it up with an early squat cancel or a jump out of Forward-B, and you don't really lose anything when they roll through you in a worst-case scenario either way. Wario's quite nice with tech-chasing now.

 

[victra♥]

It definitely feels like you can follow up with techchasing so much better now.

LOVE THE CHANGES.

Everything about him feels much better.

 

[Translucent]

Yeah, 2.5 Wario is awesome. His side b is really amazing versus rolls.

 

[\Apples]

I see you ****** dat Apex Reflex, rootin' for ya boi. Can't wait for them vids.

 

[Translucent]

Congratz on winning the tourney Reflex!!!

Wario for GOD TIER!!!!!!

 

[abcool]

Reflex won?! Hell YESS!!

 

[\Apples]

Pretty sure I said Wario is top 5 like the day after 2.5 launched. This definitely helps confirm it, the guy is good. Gratz Reflex!

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Eh I don't know about that lol, but reflex definitely did really good.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Wario is definitely swag to the max, but I think Reflex had more than a little to do with his victory.

 

[\Apples]

I'm not discrediting him, but I have a very strong opinion that his character is also really, really good.

Maybe even too good. Because I know what my Wario is capable of, and then I think of him in the hands of a top Melee player and what could be unleashed out of that little dude. I suspect that he'll only get even better as he increases in popularity, which I've no doubt he will after this.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I agree with you that Wario is very good now, but characters like Fox/Falco/Sheik still exist, so.... no, there's not much chance of Wario being OP. Even PM additions to the top tier like Lucario and Mario are pretty solidly above Wario. Wario has counters, even if they aren't hard ones.

I don't know how many Pits/Tinks/Links Reflex went against, but if he did face them, he just outplayed them cuz he's Reflex. Those characters are bad news for Wario.

 

[\Apples]

I've not had much trouble against campy characters with Wario and I haven't had TOO much trouble against the top tiers. I never said he was OP, I said he was top tier. I still maintain that opinion as well. I think (as do other reputable players I play with) he is every bit as solid as Fox/Falco/Sheik and Puff. I really do.

If you'd like to put forth some of your opinions for why Wario falls behind these, I'd like to hear them. In my experience, his hardest matchup is actually Falco. Or at least, Wario has to work the hardest for the win on him. But even vs Fox, he does excellent in the neutral game.

I don't think his neutral game is quite as good as Fox/Falcos, mostly because he doesn't have lasers. It's also not quite on par with Puff's neutral game, but I think it's comparable. Wario is a wonky character both by nature and design, so he can be difficult to evaluate. Sheik seems to beat him and I think the Puff matchup is pretty even. Lucario is a character I just don't even think about, let alone try to fit into metagame analysis. I have so little experience against Lucario, that I just don't even feel comfortable putting forth any opinion on him. Anyways, I think he goes pretty even with Mario as well, maybe even has an advantage over him.

His grab range is the nuts and every single throw has a completely valid use. He can tech chase, kill, and combo off his throws, and he even has a command grab that is a 50/50 mixup on its own. His Dair > Uair is easier than Fox's Uthrow > Uair when it connects, he has OOS options, he can tech chase pretty damn well, he's not slow at all, he's hard to combo if you're SDI'ing everything (Hell, Bowser can't even follow up on Wario after Uthrow). Crouch cancelling doesn't completely screw him over now.

The guy's edge game is insane. Nair is incredible for gimps with the pseudo, SideB off stage can shut down many characters (Ike, Luigi, PK Kids, ROB, Marth, even Peach sometimes as well as the obvious Falcon/Ganon), Dair is incredible against Mario after he DownB's during recovery, and it's also ridiculously easy after Dtilting a spacie that missed his sweetspot at the edge. Spacing Bairs/Nairs from the ledge with keep DK and Bowser off the stage really easily).

Oh, how about a Rest with a 1:30 cooldown with no downside that can also be used as recovery? (It blows my mind that he has this. This is seriously such a powerful change, everyone is going to underestimate it now, but I really think this is going to be a big deal in the balance department, but theory does nothing here, we shall see how that turns out.)

Like... Idk, I can't find any glaring weaknesses with the guy. His recovery is pretty linear I guess? Big deal. He pretty much has the same options as spacies and we've seen how small of a hindrance their recoveries have been to their performances. But he doesn't get comboed hard, has great grab game, great neutral game, can combo the whole cast for the most part, can tech-chase, has defensive options, nair cuts through most projectiles, as does SideB now, not to mention he has 3 options after committing to SideB, one of which can squeeze him past projectile spamming with the exception of Falco lasers... dude this guy is SUCH a good character. I will agree that zoning characters probably give him the most trouble, but I think he easily secures a spot in the top 8, man. Again, I didn't say he was overpowered (The only concern I really have with the character regarding balance is that his Waft no longer puts him in special fall.), just really, really, really good.

EDIT: We should get a Wario matchup thread going. Regardless of "how early the metagame is". So what? We'll update it as the metagame develops. What we want is to encourage more to play the character, to develop his metagame more (as well as other chracters, of course). Should I start it some time? Reflex? Someone else?

 

[Translucent]

Go ahead and start a Matchup Thread Apples, as long as you have the ability to check in with it every so often.

I still think I will have to be more convinced to see that Wario is top 8, but I can see Wario being MUCH MUCH better than in 2.1. Hopefully some videos of Reflex can change my mind.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

Wario matchups
Wario 100
Everyone else 0

Only works if you side taunt

 

[tripwire]

I agree with Apples. Wario is def top 12 atleast. And the Fox better be on point cuz wario will destroy a fast faller.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

granted you never said "OP", but you did say "maybe even too good". I certainly agree with you that Wario could be a top tier threat. I'm pretty sure I do better with him than I did with Lucario. That kind of says something.

 

[Oracle]

Wario is definitely not on the same caliber as melee top tiers. Hes really good, but isnt stupidly broken. Id say captain falcon level, which is basically perfect

 

[Minnty]

His exact position on the tier list is less important right now, and still is more or less arbitrary. We should get to talking about matchups.

EDIT: This is Apples. Logged in on friends computer, didn't realize.

 

[abcool]

What are some good combo starters on Fox/Falco? I notice the first upthrow doesn't put them into tumble, so you have to hope to get that second grab.

Edit; Reflex, ever since i saw you on stream i was wondering what is your ethnicity?

 

[\Apples]

Uthrow > Nair works pretty well, Uthrow > Fsmash also works if they're low and by the edge or on a platform, otherwise, they can just CC your Fsmash.

 

[Shell]

I love Wario as much as the next guy having designed him but I couldn't let this pass without a couple reality checks here.

I've not had much trouble against campy characters with Wario and I haven't had TOO much trouble against the top tiers. I never said he was OP, I said he was top tier. I still maintain that opinion as well. I think (as do other reputable players I play with) he is every bit as solid as Fox/Falco/Sheik and Puff. I really do.

If you'd like to put forth some of your opinions for why Wario falls behind these, I'd like to hear them. In my experience, his hardest matchup is actually Falco. Or at least, Wario has to work the hardest for the win on him. But even vs Fox, he does excellent in the neutral game.

I don't think his neutral game is quite as good as Fox/Falcos, mostly because he doesn't have lasers. It's also not quite on par with Puff's neutral game, but I think it's comparable. Wario is a wonky character both by nature and design, so he can be difficult to evaluate. Sheik seems to beat him and I think the Puff matchup is pretty even. Lucario is a character I just don't even think about, let alone try to fit into metagame analysis. I have so little experience against Lucario, that I just don't even feel comfortable putting forth any opinion on him. Anyways, I think he goes pretty even with Mario as well, maybe even has an advantage over him.

His grab range is the nuts and every single throw has a completely valid use. He can tech chase, kill, and combo off his throws, and he even has a command grab that is a 50/50 mixup on its own. His Dair > Uair is easier than Fox's Uthrow > Uair when it connects, he has OOS options, he can tech chase pretty damn well, he's not slow at all, he's hard to combo if you're SDI'ing everything (Hell, Bowser can't even follow up on Wario after Uthrow). Crouch cancelling doesn't completely screw him over now.

The guy's edge game is insane. Nair is incredible for gimps with the pseudo, SideB off stage can shut down many characters (Ike, Luigi, PK Kids, ROB, Marth, even Peach sometimes as well as the obvious Falcon/Ganon), Dair is incredible against Mario after he DownB's during recovery, and it's also ridiculously easy after Dtilting a spacie that missed his sweetspot at the edge. Spacing Bairs/Nairs from the ledge with keep DK and Bowser off the stage really easily).

Oh, how about a Rest with a 1:30 cooldown with no downside that can also be used as recovery? (It blows my mind that he has this. This is seriously such a powerful change, everyone is going to underestimate it now, but I really think this is going to be a big deal in the balance department, but theory does nothing here, we shall see how that turns out.)

Like... Idk, I can't find any glaring weaknesses with the guy. His recovery is pretty linear I guess? Big deal. He pretty much has the same options as spacies and we've seen how small of a hindrance their recoveries have been to their performances. But he doesn't get comboed hard, has great grab game, great neutral game, can combo the whole cast for the most part, can tech-chase, has defensive options, nair cuts through most projectiles, as does SideB now, not to mention he has 3 options after committing to SideB, one of which can squeeze him past projectile spamming with the exception of Falco lasers... dude this guy is SUCH a good character. I will agree that zoning characters probably give him the most trouble, but I think he easily secures a spot in the top 8, man. Again, I didn't say he was overpowered (The only concern I really have with the character regarding balance is that his Waft no longer puts him in special fall.), just really, really, really good.

EDIT: We should get a Wario matchup thread going. Regardless of "how early the metagame is". So what? We'll update it as the metagame develops. What we want is to encourage more to play the character, to develop his metagame more (as well as other chracters, of course). Should I start it some time? Reflex? Someone else?

He doesn't have any glaring weaknesses per se but I think you're playing up his strengths a little too far. For instance, in response to your 4th paragraph:

His grab range is decent, though he lacks a bread and butter reliable combo set up throw ala Mario D-throw etc, forcing him to win a DI mixup for combos outside of U-throw on certain lower percent FFers. Landing Dair > Uair is tasty but you're not going to pull that off 1/4 as much as a fox can U-throw > Uair so I'm not sure how apt the comparison is... the "when it connects" is a big factor. He does have a couple different okay OoS options, yes, he can tech chase decently well into high rewards but as far as I've tested Wario doesn't have any way to cover 3/4+ tech chase options like Falcon & Ganon can.

 

[\Apples]

Rip apart the other paragraphs too, that's what I put them there for.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, D-Smash and Forward-B cover a lot of stuff depending on the speed of a tech or how far they've been sent. Both can outright beat get-up attacks, and N-Air's long-lasting hitbox, two hitboxes, and semi-spike capability allows Wario to react to some characters if they don't like moving away.

EDIT: abcool, I'm Puerto Rican.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I made a video on the U-Throw chaingrab, which only works on the space animals--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zEv79gPiwA

 

[Oracle]

I'm pretty sure we all know the best follow up is standing bite-> fart

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Might be better to save it in some situations, and since opponents can DI away (or not at all!) to avoid it (and most punishes) when they approach mid percents, it's best not to count on Neutral-B for comboing into Waft if you can help it.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I'm pretty sure we all know the best follow up is standing bite-> fart

That sounds straight up bunk, if your opponent has horrendous di then yeah sure take it, but you have much better ways of getting a fart.

And it seems like everybody can chain grab the spacies these days, its still important info though.

 

[Oracle]

> mfw nobody unerstands my joke

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's far from useless, though.

 

[Oracle]

I know but at high percents it would usually be better just to send them offstage and edgeguard.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

i try to use my fart for edge guarding like 80% of the time. Since I always play against the same people though, I usually end up having a better chance of landing it during the 20% of the time when I go for onstage reads. They just aren't expecting it, because of all the conditioning.

 

[Translucent]

I tend to try and use the waft too quickly and miss with it. Does anyone ever use if to recover if they had to, or just lose the stock?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I tend to try and use the waft too quickly and miss with it. Does anyone ever use if to recover if they had to, or just lose the stock?

That's something I always forget about. I can definitely see it being a good idea in the right situation though. Like, if you're about to get gimped at a low %, and you use it to save yourself, that's just as much of a reward as gimping your opponent at a low% with it. If you're at 170% and waft is your only chance though, I'd just lose the stock in that situation, unless of course it was your last stock.

 

[Ace55]

I use waft for recovery a lot. I specialize at living till absurd percents so if I'm below 100% I'm using it if necessary.

Had to make a conscious effort to implement it though since in 2.1 it was basically useless.

First example that comes to mind (though this was an unforced error) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OyaTDKhgOw0#t=325s
Proceeded to win the match.