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Strategies, Combos, Smelly Waft thread

abcool

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Wario is my favorite characters in PM. I want this to be one of those threads where we share information to help push this character to the top of the tier list.

Some of my favorite mixups with Wario is nair into bite. This lastest version has opened a lot of new doors for the way i play Wario now. Retaining momentum during bite and being able to extend SBG(Shouldbashgrab) will push your opponent to the edge of their seat from the surprises he has in store.

Dsmash can lead into techchases and grab setups.

Bite now throws at a closer distance and has less lag so now you can followup with a nair or upsmash depending on opponents DI.

Up-B now connects better an deals pretty good damage, seems like it can be use for a GFTO move during pressure.

Dair is still amazing on shields and can cancel(when landed) into an aerial that can hit the opponent before they can react.

Please add as much to this thread as possible :)
 

Translucent

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I think bite is amazing with how you can move after you press B, and you can choose which way to throw opponent. Dair gimps are super fun when they happen, and sometimes unavoidable.

Nair is freaking amazing for everything...
 

#HBC | Joker

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Wario nair is like, the most beast move in the game :p it's great for popping up grounded opponents when they miss techs and whatnot, and is great for gimps too.

jab1>jab2>dtilt>nair is great at lower/mid %s, and will continue working with bad di and missed techs and such.
dsmash>sideb is an amazing kill setup, even if it requires a little reading

grounded sideb is amazing for edgeguarding. You can either fall over the ledge to hit a low recovering opponent, or jump it from the stage to hit somebody a little higher up, and you'll retain your doublejump + upb for getting back no problem. Just don't use aerial sideb, because you'll go into special fall and die if you miss :p
 

#HBC | Joker

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Wario is a gimping machine. You can get pretty solid edgeguards with nair, bair, dair, sideb, dtilt at the ledge, and an offstage waft (which basically always = stock)

If you just space dtilt at the ledge, you can just poke characters trying to sweetspot it. Since using dtilt slides wario forward, you'll need to wavedash back, or just turn around and reposition yourself by walking if you've got the time, every time you do it. It won't gimp them to death, but as long as they keep getting hit by it, it's free damage, and keeping them in a good position for you to more effectively edgeguard them to death via other means. I see DDDs do this same thing with their forward tilt, which is a little easier to space and considerably safer for them.
 

abcool

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When i go against spacies, i like how throw repeatedly into upsmash just links into sourspot uair to sweetspot uair. I also like his edgegame with dtilt into dair. I wanna learn how to use the 1:00 charged waft since it still does considerable damage.
 

abcool

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The thread is fine without him. The party, however, may require his presence.
I wanted Reflex to focus on a video thread which he does better at explaining situations through actual footage than theory. He can pop in here at anytime, but we are Wario mains aswell.
 

#HBC | Joker

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If I'm telling the truth here.. I started playing Wario like yesterday. I've tried picking him up in Brawl like once or twice and wasn't feeling it at all. Then I picked him up in 2.1 and I loved what they did with him, but I still lost all the time so I dropped him. With what they've done with him in 2.5 now though, I'm really feeling it with him, and I'm seriously considering dropping Lucario as my "main" and trying to be a Wario player. I'll definitely keep playing Lucario, but I feel like Wario might be my calling for this game.
 

abcool

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Yeah, feel the same way, after i realised all my Melee mains were garbage in Brawl, Wario got my attention, but wasn't what i wanted him to be. In PM 2.1 and still without Samus in the game. I decided to go with Wario, whom i loved playing with since he just fitted the type of playstyle he SHOULD have had in Brawl. In 2.1 Wario wasn't great and i got destroyed by campy Links, but i still pushed him. Now this Wario is just....i don't think i can describe it.

That SB edgeguard offstage is sooo nice. Jab1>Jab2> into bite and then fsmash or with good di follow the tech with SB cancel and fsmash from behind shields. This character man :p
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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Wario feels absolutely FUN to play as. That's all. Kinda flows with the tricks he can do and he's hard to predict with all the mix-up options.
 

abcool

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How do you guys deal with Link and other long range characters. I need some tactics on how to deal with that mess. Please elaborate on how to

1)Handle projectile spam especially when they retreat with it and abuse range.
2)How to effectively edgeguard once they are offstage
3)Setups into waft or just some nice combos that work period
4)Good stages to use an stages that should be banned
 

Ace55

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I love how combo happy fair is now. And bite for that matter. And how you can now nair offstage. And how you can recover with waft. And how confusing his grab/throw game is. And dtilt wow dtilt.

In other words, loving all the changes. Should be using Wario a lot more again in 2.5. Kinda bailed on him a bit in 2.1. But since I'm somewhat of a fan boy I'm looking forward to him being good.

Edit: even putting my old signature back in use.
 

Solharath

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So I might pick up Wario solidly because of his new run animation. In the middle of a fight, I can't help but yell, "You cannot catch the Fat Man!" and just take off running/foxtrotting. It's so amusing to watch.

Plus he's just all-around fun. Still wish attempting to land an offstage dair wasn't suicide if you miss.
 

MegaGuy

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I've been messing around with him, and it seems like you can Bite->Dash Grab non-fastfallers at low-mid percents. Not sure if it's DI-able though.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Didn't know we got outright character threads for PM.

Ballin.' Perhaps I'll set to work on a few crucial threads?

EDIT: I see we have questions to be answered. I can get them here, but it might make more sense to create a "Q&A" thread after this to keep the thread focused on combos.
 

abcool

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Didn't know we got outright character threads for PM.

Ballin.' Perhaps I'll set to work on a few crucial threads?

EDIT: I see we have questions to be answered. I can get them here, but it might make more sense to create a "Q&A" thread after this to keep the thread focused on combos.
Yes, i need help with the link matchups. I will keep this thread more combo based.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I've been messing around with him, and it seems like you can Bite->Dash Grab non-fastfallers at low-mid percents. Not sure if it's DI-able though.
Bite is a mix-up by itself. Either you throw them forward or backward--The opponent can only guess. Good DI for one (the same direction you're thrown) is bad DI for the other. If the opponent doesn't DI, you can run up for general pressure or get a F-Air. If they DI correctly, you don't really get any follow-ups. If they DI incorrectly, you get pretty much whatever you want until high percents.

I would definitely recommend using a jump-canceled Grab instead of a Dash Grab in the situation you described, though. While running, just jump and immediately grab. Wario will do his standing grab immediately out of a run. His standing grab range is above-average, and it's faster than a Dash Grab. The Dash Grab has its place for mix-up pressure with Forward-B there, but if you actively want the grab at low percents, I've found jump-canceled Grab to be more effective, personally.

Still wish attempting to land an offstage dair wasn't suicide if you miss.
If you're ever in doubt, just fastfall a N-Air over a recovering opponent instead. It will rarely disappoint you.

If you just space dtilt at the ledge, you can just poke characters trying to sweetspot it. Since using dtilt slides wario forward, you'll need to wavedash back, or just turn around and reposition yourself by walking if you've got the time, every time you do it. It won't gimp them to death, but as long as they keep getting hit by it, it's free damage, and keeping them in a good position for you to more effectively edgeguard them to death via other means. I see DDDs do this same thing with their forward tilt, which is a little easier to space and considerably safer for them.
Mmm...Perhaps against certain characters, but, as far as I can tell, D-Tilt as an edgeguard only hits characters who are more-or-less incapable to sweetspotting or players who aren't good at sweetspotting. It's like saying that Marth D-Tilt is a good edgeguard--It has its place, but you're usually better off being more proactive about edgeguarding than that. Use your best judgment. If their recovery movement is ambiguous, I can't recommend N-Air enough, as the semi-spike and shorter overall animation gives Wario a ton of flexibility offstage.

How do you guys deal with Link and other long range characters. I need some tactics on how to deal with that mess. Please elaborate on how to

1)Handle projectile spam especially when they retreat with it and abuse range.
2)How to effectively edgeguard once they are offstage
3)Setups into waft or just some nice combos that work period
4)Good stages to use an stages that should be banned
1. While it can get you frame-trapped in some situations (Mario moving forward with fireballs, etc.), Forward-B clanks with a lot of projectiles and puts you back in neutral position as long as you haven't moved a great distance prior to hitting the projectile. Otherwise, you'll outright cancel their projectile and keep moving with Forward-B (because moves only clank if the damage difference is 7% or less), which is unsafe.

The improved Forward-B squat cancel has slight knockback armor and the animation is much faster, allowing you to blow through some projectiles while still maintaining forward movement.

Dash Attack also works okay due to the long-lasting hitbox in order to "eat" certain projectiles. Otherwise, just use your great mobility to box the opponent in or take the time to build up your Waft.

2. You have to get used to the opponent's options. While many characters outrange you, the fact that you can weave so well makes you VERY threatening by itself. The most reliable method would be to use a N-Air slightly higher than them and just outside their range. If they take a swing at you, you can go in and semi-spike them. If not, just try to pressure them more, and next time don't stop moving forward. N-Air beats a lot of otherwise-excellent recoveries when it's in the right place, as even if you trade, it's the opponent who won't be able to make it back.

D-Air is satisfying but mostly situational. It works well on especially predictable recoveries, and an edge-canceled D-Air gives you some leeway in exchange for range and flexibility.

At low percents, the shortened animations of F-Air and N-Air allow for them to combo into a footstool, which can be played around with. I also believe (as I've never done it offstage) that footstool -> D-Air is a true combo on most characters, so late F-Air/late N-Air -> footstool -> D-Air should theoretically be a thing.

Speaking of footstools, since the footstool button doesn't do anything else in the air (unlike Brawl, where you would use your double-jump if you weren't footstooling someone), there's little reason not to press it in close-quarters situations offstage. I made my footstool button X, so I can slide my thumb from X to A in order to try a footstool when I'm within range. If I miss, I immediately go into an aerial. No risk, potentially high reward.

3. Many of Wario's new changes allow him to use Waft more often and more reliably in general. If the opponent DIs incorrectly, Bite -> Waft is a true combo, and basic edgeguarding afterward makes for an easy 0-to-death on a fair amount of characters, depending on the character and how close to the edge you are when you Bite them.

Missed techs from either sourspot N-Air or D-Throw are pretty easy to capitalize on with the new Forward-B squat cancel, especially since The hitbox causes a reset, allowing you to follow up with Waft (or anything else, really) if your Forward-B cancel was spaced well.

If it's not crouch-canceled, Jab1 -> Jab2 combos into Waft at mid-to-high percents, if I recall correctly. Be careful about that, though, or you might eat something strong out of their CC.

Don't forget that you can use it defensively after crouch-canceling. You have to be careful against some characters, as they might interrupt you otherwise, but, it's still nice to have in your pocket in order to stop the N-Airplanes and stuff. It gets easier with practice.

D-Air combos easily into it, but it's difficult to land a D-Air on the stage. Any footstool while on-stage should be followed up with D-Air, as it's usually free damage, and in the worst situations, it still allows you to L-Cancel and follow up with general pressure.

4. I'm not really the person to talk to when it comes to stages; in tournament, I usually tell people, "I strike/ban Final Destination; pick whatever else you want," and that's only because FD is boring to me. I do like stages with triple platforms, however, such as Battlefield and Yoshi's Story, because it allows Wario to edge-cancel aerial Forward-B for general flexibility.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Also, so it doesn't get lost in responses, here's a stand-alone contribution--

Get used to using aerial Forward-B so that you land at the edge of platforms. You fall off with a double-jump and the ability to use any move immediately, so if/when you're being pressured near a platform, you can use Forward-B and go into a falling B-Air/N-Air/Bite without missing a beat. It's quite helpful and helps make you unpredictable.

Missed techs near the ground should be caught with the Forward-B squat cancel. It gives you a free whatever-you-want afterward, and if they tech, you usually can't be punished hard for it, if at all.
 

Me_Aludes

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This is probably known, but Wario's so floaty you can run off a ledge, press back and land "instantly".

The interesting part is that while in the air you can uair and the hitbox will come out. You can of course L-cancel this uair. I don't know if this will be useful because it's a bit hard to do and seems quite situational. It might be possible to do with other aerials.
 

TheReflexWonder

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This is probably known, but Wario's so floaty you can run off a ledge, press back and land "instantly".

The interesting part is that while in the air you can uair and the hitbox will come out. You can of course L-cancel this uair. I don't know if this will be useful because it's a bit hard to do and seems quite situational. It might be possible to do with other aerials.
That is less about floatiness and more about his incredible horizontal aerial mobility, both in speed and acceleration (being able to "weave").

That said, Wario doesn't really gain anything from it, and if you're in position to do that, you're better off doing other moves, like Forward-B or F-Smash for strong single hits, or a grab for combo potential.

Edge-canceling is good for Wario's aerials, though--You can cut off the lag on aerials or Forward-B and immediately go into a second attack. It also allows you to attempt to hit some offstage opponents with D-Air without dying if you miss.
 

hotdogturtle

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I'm not sure when you're "supposed to" do this, but one thing I've found is using the side-B crouch to go through someone and then immediately doing a backwards fsmash. It can catch them confused if they were still expecting the shoulder bash.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I wouldn't recommend making a habit out of it, as it's easily crouch-canceled and isn't difficult to punish if they stay on the ground. It works alright if they're moving toward the ground after a weak pop-up (Jab2, D-Tilt, etc.), but you'll generally want to look for more powerful options than the Forward-B cancel.

Outside of tech chase opportunities, think of it as a way to reset the situation and move away from the opponent, as people will stop being flustered by it after they see if often enough. It's best used when people are afraid of the Dash Grab or the Forward-B. Other options do much more damage, and if you're close enough to trick them with that, you may as well DACUS, jump-canceled grab, or rising F-Air, IMO.
 

#HBC | Joker

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I'm not sure when you're "supposed to" do this, but one thing I've found is using the side-B crouch to go through someone and then immediately doing a backwards fsmash. It can catch them confused if they were still expecting the shoulder bash.
Would be a useful mixup for messing with people's DI, if nothing else.
 

\Apples

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Would be a useful mixup for messing with people's DI, if nothing else.
I'm not sure this will work, as Wario cannot Fsmash immediately after he crouches out of the Shoulder Bash. So your opponent will have plenty of time to recognize that you've cancelled it and are now behind them. I guess nobody's really going to expect an Fsmash right there, though. Also, if they get hit by the weak little hitbox on the crouch and they are DI'ing inward for the Shoulder Bash, they'll move further behind Wario as he passes them and the Fsmash will probably miss and he'll be left wide open.
 

#HBC | Joker

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I'd actually never done the shoulderbash cancel before, so I assumed it'd be quicker. After trying it tho, you're right. It's way too slow. I can really only see it being useful for approaching while crouch canceling with that slide. You can't even act out of it fast enough to throw out a dtilt for starting up combos :/

It's pretty much a baiting option, as long as you're at a low enough %, and willing to take a hit. Wario combos good enough that you can make a punish worth it.
 

MrButterFuzz

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Ground side b then crouch-cancel. Can you do anything after that? it just seems like you can.

All I got out of it is kinda like a weak dacus, lol.

EDIT: oops, didn't read that last post. That pretty much answers my question. Uh huh...
 

Mr.Pickle

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The couch out of side b is more of a mix up option, if your opponent expects it, then you're going to get punished. The best way I find to use it is to space it so I end up a good distance behind them after I hit them or their shield. That way at worst its neutral because they can't punish me fast enough if I space it correctly, and at best I get a follow up, usually a grab or a nair/dsmash. All of this is assuming they don't see it coming and I have good spacing.

@Mr.ButterFuzz- What exactly are you talking about, your post is a little vague, mind explaining it to me in more detail, or the best way you can?
 

#HBC | Joker

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The couch out of side b is more of a mix up option, if your opponent expects it, then you're going to get punished. The best way I find to use it is to space it so I end up a good distance behind them after I hit them or their shield. That way at worst its neutral because they can't punish me fast enough if I space it correctly, and at best I get a follow up, usually a grab or a nair/dsmash. All of this is assuming they don't see it coming and I have good spacing.

@Mr.ButterFuzz- What exactly are you talking about, your post is a little vague, mind explaining it to me in more detail, or the best way you can?
He's talking about the same thing we're talking about. The crouch canceled shoulderbash. (CCSB? Let's go with that) It's too slow to end for you to do anything not telegraphed out of it. If you could actually slide forward in a crouch cancel while dtilting, that would be so sick :/
 

Mr.Pickle

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It would also be kinda ridiculous in combination to all the all the other things he can do with side b, if he could do that. What he gains out of a well thought out of ccsb (advancing dat meta with new terms lol) is perfectly fine as is, at least imo.
 

TheReflexWonder

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This was directed at videos I was critiquing, but it would probably help a lot of players out, so I'm quoting it here--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyaTDKhgOw0

If you start Bite in the air, the grab hitbox is smaller than the grounded version, so try to outright overlap opponents when you're landing with it.

Definitely vary up your close-range game more. Jab1 -> Jab2 is relatively easy to crouch cancel and punish, so try more Jab1 -> grab and D-Tilt. Also, don't forget about the glory of N-Air as a general poking tool; it's not just a gimping machine and a combo starter. Wario's ability to weave and the long-lasting hitbox makes it worth considering. You also D-Smash a lot--That can be crouch-canceled by the opponent at any percent. Jab combo and D-Smash are easy to understand and use, but they are easy to defend against when they get predictable. Mix them up and they become much more useful.

I find N-Air to be a better combo move than F-Air at lower percents, especially against opponents with a fast, safe aerial they can retaliate with (Marth F-Air, in this case). The fact that it hits twice allows you to land immediately after the second hit and follow up with something else; they're in hitstun longer that way, so even when it doesn't lead to true combos (though it does in some cases), you have better frame advantage, and the long-lasting hitbox stands a better chance of stuffing opponents' late attacks.

Don't forget about strong F-Throw (hold A before you input Forward); if the opponent is at higher percents, it makes for easier and/or more potential for gimps and edgeguards. Depends on the opponent, really; just experiment with them and you'll find what works best on each character. I personally feel that N-Air pressure offstage works excellently against a Marth who's been thrown far.

Punishing opponents who Up-B past the ledge is often best done with ledgehop Bite. 13% for free and you create a lose-lose situation for the opponent if you throw him off the stage. Either he DIs toward the stage and gives you a free follow-up, or he DIs away at a semi-spike angle and has a difficult time recovering.

Don't bother with D-Air if the opponent's percent is too high to follow up on after a ground bounce. D-Air is (probably) Wario's slowest attack, so in the time you could land a D-Air, a B-Air or Bite probably would benefit you more while still being easier to land/time. If the opponent is at a high percent (and sometimes lower, but it's all situation-specific), it's just as effective and much safer to land a sourspot N-Air for edgeguarding, as it semi-spikes, ends much faster, and allows you to maintain horizontal aerial mobility throughout the attack. Mixing up normal fall and fastfall N-Air is also helpful to make it more consistent for edgeguarding.

Nice strings at the beginning of the first FoD match. Still, I would recommend trying to get comfortable with weak F-Throw/D-Throw mix-ups, as they tend to be more reliable for follow-ups than U-Throw on average, in my experience.

I'm starting to see better use of N-Air for edgeguarding halfway through the video. Good stuff. Remember, against most characters, you can N-Air their Up-B as they're coming up. You'll usually trade at worst, leaving you to recover and the opponent to die.

If you're worried about whether or not the opponent is high enough to cleanly land a N-Air after you leave the ground, they're usually in prime position to be grabbed by Bite, which deals more damage and gives you a free mix-up. Unless they don't have their double-jump or they're at a really high percent (and if your hits are barely popping them up, they probably aren't), try to default to Bite in that worrisome scenario.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99qJIcyBXXc

You both seem to default to comfortable, predictable options when you don't have complete control over the situation. Jab1 should sometimes be followed up by a grab or tilt. If you decide to jump over your opponent with Forward-B, don't double-jump backward and D-Air; the height gives you opponent all the time in the world to respond to it. Try to refrain from using the same option twice in a row most of the time.

Also, with the great amount of speed characters have in this game, air approaches are quite viable. Wario is really good at this, and you're probably aware of that, but the reason I mention this is because slow grounded options aren't very useful in the neutral game; you shouldn't go for F-Tilt unless the opponent is in a compromising, uncomfortable position, such as after a tech, or trying to get back on the stage from a ledge. It's just too easy to run jump over and punish.

Try not to use U-Air outside of KO/fastfaller combo opportunities unless you don't really have anything else that will hit an opponent at that point (and even then, you're probably better using an Up-B!). 99% of the time, you can deal comparable damage while setting up for more stuff, such as Bite, D-Air, footstool, or late N-Air (if they'll have to tech on a platform afterward).

Be smarter about your move and movement choices at low percents. An F-Smash can get punished even when you hit at very low percents. Some aerials strings, such as F-Air -> anything, can be interrupted by most opponents' N-Airs at low percents, so either use N-Air for better frame advantage there or retreat after a successful hit.
 

Oracle

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fair-> side b is a thing sometimes, but you die if you miss lol. I think the potential hilarity is worth the risk.

Also if you're playing a space animal and they DI the bite wrong at low percent, you can standing fart them. It looks ridiculous
 

TheReflexWonder

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fair-> side b is a thing sometimes, but you die if you miss lol. I think the potential hilarity is worth the risk.

Also if you're playing a space animal and they DI the bite wrong at low percent, you can standing fart them. It looks ridiculous
In order--

I'd much rather flatten them with the pancake that is N-Air. He just flies out like a superhero.

It's also a probable 0-to-death. :x
 

\Apples

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Joined
Jan 3, 2013
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488
Location
Kirkland, Washington
So wario can ken combo some characters between mid and high %'s

ahh ****
If your opponent is a DK, Dedede, Charizard or a Bowser that can't get to the ground and Up+B, Wario can pretty much Ken combo them between Dtilt, Nair and Fair. Cycling between those based on what you observe of their DI can take a whole stock off depending on how you finish it.

It can be tough to start, as you actually have to pop them into the air with a Dtilt that they don't CC in order to properly start it, usually. Nair can get it started sometimes too, but once you get going, it can be kind of easy to keep up. Finishing is the hard part.

Finishing it all depends on their DI. If they just keep DI'ing in because you're getting them nearer to the ledge, you can easily land an Fsmash and just boot 'em outta the park. If they start DI'ing away, go for a running grab or a Shoulder Charge; it's kind of a 50/50 here against Bowser, but against the others, grab is safer. If they get their shield up, you're wide open and the tables will have been turned. However, Bowser can get that Up+B out in time and either clank with your Shoulder Charge or just beat your grab. (Or perhaps you'll get it with the grab armor, but I wouldn't count on that.)
 
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