Starting roster already revealed (SamuraiPanda's Conspiracy Theoracy) [Final Update]

[TenzeiX]

very good theory there, if your right I would not be suprised.

 

[Zycor]

It's obviously not the final Roster...

I think it's close but Sonic will not be on the final starting roster, Sakurai said it himself: "The problem is Sonic. What to do... I suppose if we’re going to all this trouble, perhaps we should make him playable."

I like Panda's theory, but Sakurai just wanted to show off one of the most anticipated and wanted characters.

 

[xbrinkx]

It's obviously not the final Roster...

I think it's close but Sonic will not be on the final starting roster, Sakurai said it himself: "The problem is Sonic. What to do... I suppose if we’re going to all this trouble, perhaps we should make him playable."

I like Panda's theory, but Sakurai just wanted to show off one of the most anticipated and wanted characters.

Ok, if he wanted the most anticipated and wanted characters on the demo then he'd put Snake in there. People who pay close attention would want to play as him. Besides, Sonic has an all-around appeal.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

It's obviously not the final Roster...

I think it's close but Sonic will not be on the final starting roster, Sakurai said it himself: "The problem is Sonic. What to do... I suppose if we’re going to all this trouble, perhaps we should make him playable."

I like Panda's theory, but Sakurai just wanted to show off one of the most anticipated and wanted characters.

By the way, really quickly (my final exam is in an hour ), Sakurai never said that. Everyone seems to assume it was him, but there was never an equivalent update on the Japanese site. It was an American only update, so it was actually Nate saying that.

 

[DeuceBlade]

some points in your theoracy increases Ness' chances in my opinion. I agree with some of it.

 

[AllanT]

I agree COMPLETELY. It makes total sense- and though like you I wish it wasn't true- it's most likely the truth.

But I do have a feeling it will be altered- maybe- and if so just a little bit.

 

[Nietendodude]

I have 2 things for you. 1 argument, and 1 back-up. =]



Since you say it makes sense why Kirby and Zelda are unlockables, why would Meta Knight be a starter? His ship plays a huge role, so MK probably does do... Since it doesn't make sense for his ship to be a big part in the SSE, whilst he does... Nothing? Maybe he's evil (Corrupted or something), etc., etc. So, I think MK will be removed for the final version, and was just there for the demo to show him off since he was a fairly hyped up character.

Now, something to back you up.

Zelda being unlockable makes SO MUCH SENSE! There is a video on YouTube (Don't have it now...) where both Peach and Zelda get freed from Petey's cages, but Wario comes in and turns Zelda into a trophy and takes her with him (Kirby saves Peach via Star). So, until you save and revive Zelda, she will not be playable. Makes a helluva lot of sense to me at least...

One problem with the zelda throey.

Sakurai qutoe:

"You can save either Zelda or Peach, depending on which cage you damage more and subsequently break.



What will happen to the one you don’t save?!" (a.k.a. the zelda you saw in the video)

 

[LukewarmHoliday]

yeah this topic is epic out of the fact it uses logic. yes it could very well be the starting lineup and sakurai probably does want to hook people on the game right from the start.
well we have some nice speculation now but i'm just not sold on the idea of having that few of characters just not what i'm expecting but you've definately made a point

 

[Arteen]

By the way, really quickly (my final exam is in an hour ), Sakurai never said that. Everyone seems to assume it was him, but there was never an equivalent update on the Japanese site. It was an American only update, so it was actually Nate saying that.

How do you know that Sakurai didn't write the update and send it to Nate, or at least in some way elucidate on why Sonic was playable? I doubt that Nate simply made it up on the spot.

Also, regarding your theory, I think it's crazy. It's all built upon circumstantial evidence, and you could just as easily come up with a rationale for anything so that would fit your theory. For example, you could use the same reasoning to explain Peach's absence if Zelda was a starting character instead. Besides, if I were Sakurai and I were using your basic reasoning, I would have both princesses be unlockable and stick Trainer there instead (since he's a newcomer). You would unlock one of the princesses right away, but to save the other, you would have to do that (probably) much later on in SSE, giving a player more motivation to beat SSE.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

By the way, really quickly (my final exam is in an hour ), Sakurai never said that. Everyone seems to assume it was him, but there was never an equivalent update on the Japanese site. It was an American only update, so it was actually Nate saying that.

But it is Sakurai the one who posts it. He could have very well sent Nate the update, get the translation back, and only post it in the American site.

 

[NotGiratina]

It's likely someone said this before but wasn't the demo Melee selection fairly incomplete?It's somewhat safe to assume that Brawl wouldn't be much different,but otherwise,you have decent points.

 

[Johnknight1]

I agree and disagree at the exact same time. I do agree that you make a great argument that if characters were to return than we'd get around 35 characters. (My expected total XD) The thing about clones is that Sakurai said he'd get rid of clones in Brawl. (I'm not gonna go look for it.) I don't think all the clones may be gone for good, it's just that it's very likely. I'm not sure about 40 characters, but maybe around 35 if your returning characters theory holds up. I'd love to have 40 chars, but it's too high to expect from where I stand.

That "all cloone's aren't returning" rumor is as dumb a rumor as "WW Link, Ridley, and Bowser Jr. Confirmed, and Ice Climbers, Mr. G&W, and Dr. Mario are cut". Because the IC are confirmed, and if Ganondorf or Luigi don't return, Brawl will fail on all levels. Seriously, that is a fake FALSE rumor. It is not confirmed that clones will or will not return.

And anything less than 40=total failure IMO. It means Sakurai focused on bonus crap, and not the game itself. I honestly care more about characters then physics. THE PRESIDENT OF NINTENDO even said there will be tons of characters at the Nintendo Fall Pres Conference. 35 characters is Melee+9. We have 11 newcomers. Worst come, we will lose 5 characters from Melee. That means we got 32. 3 characters is easy to add, indefinitely.

Pack of lies.

Prove it's not. The only "true" rumor that was confirmed was just one rumors, and it wasn't even a rumor.

1. "Peach confirmed" rumor, from the Subspace Emissary update. Ya, it was true!

And....

2.The Brawl Boxart being "leaked".

The fact is this rumor is probably false, like all other rumors. It will fail, obviously. Just because someone says something is true, doesn't mean it is.

 

[NeroeXIII]

Um, I think i'm missing something here (At least I think so). But.. why is everyone so Angry about this being the starting rooster. Who cares? If it's about how much characters can fit they can re-arange it, HECK they can make pages of characters. Or maybe a custom character select screen (An option where you pick the fighters you want to be on a rooster). Anyway I just don't get why everyone is so upset..@_@

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

No one commented on my arguement.

 

[xbrinkx]

I'm tired of being misunderstood -.-'. Sakurai said in an interview that he would get rid of clones or at least get rid of their clone mannerisms. Take Luigi for example, he only had a slight change from Mario so he's still a clone. Sakurai could take Luigi and do something new with him. Same with every character. I NEVER SAID CHARACTERS THAT WERE CLONES ARE COMPLETELY OUT! I just said that it's very likely a lot of characters that were previously clones will be cut. Btw, that "bonus crap" statement wouldn't be refering to all these new features we're getting in Brawl would it? Think of how hard they worked on Stage Builder and Online. I'm starting to get irritated about misunderstanding my arguments so I'm probably going to be less active with retorts. Unless it just hits me like a truck.

Anyways, I'm gonna get right down to it. Why are people getting angry at the fact that this might be the starting roster? Would anything be lost from it? It just doesn't seem too distressing to me.

 

[Cless]

Prove it's not. The only "true" rumor that was confirmed was just one rumors, and it wasn't even a rumor.

1. "Peach confirmed" rumor, from the Subspace Emissary update. Ya, it was true!

And....

2.The Brawl Boxart being "leaked".

The fact is this rumor is probably false, like all other rumors. It will fail, obviously. Just because someone says something is true, doesn't mean it is.

What? I even quoted who I was responding to in my post. Go read it again. I already stated my opinion on this matter, and I agree that Panda makes sense.

 

[RegalBuster]

I'm tired of being misunderstood -.-'. Sakurai said in an interview that he would get rid of clones or at least get rid of their clone mannerisms. Take Luigi for example, he only had a slight change from Mario so he's still a clone. Sakurai could take Luigi and do something new with him. Same with every character. I NEVER SAID CHARACTERS THAT WERE CLONES ARE COMPLETELY OUT! I just said that it's very likely a lot of characters that were previously clones will be cut. Btw, that "bonus crap" statement wouldn't be refering to all these new features we're getting in Brawl would it? Think of how hard they worked on Stage Builder and Online. I'm starting to get irritated about misunderstanding my arguments so I'm probably going to be less active with retorts. Unless it just hits me like a truck.

Anyways, I'm gonna get right down to it. Why are people getting angry at the fact that this might be the starting roster? Would anything be lost from it? It just doesn't seem too distressing to me.

Luigi will still have the Green Fireball and SuperLuigi Jump but his down b will be the vacuum, and his FS will be different from Marios.

 

[Cless]

He'll probably just shoot lightning instead.

 

[SaxyPlayah]

Well...my defense against this theory is that...plainly...just look at it... there is virtually no room to put in the secret characters....where would the selection for kirby, PT, Wario, etc. go? Also, shouldnt there be some ???? boxes to indicate there are secret characters... (excluding the clones which like popped out of the side of their clones). And if they do place them out to the side...or inbetween character boxes...wouldnt the character selection screen look really distorted until all of the characters were unlocked?

I do notice that this idea has already been presented and a counterargument has been made for this one as well...but c'mon...yeah...in the end itll look like a good looking roster but in between unlocking characters...it just wouldnt lay right...

This is just my counterargument to this theory...i really dont believe this is the starting roster....

 

[Cless]

There could always be multiple pages or something. It's not hard to resize the characters or make more pages of characters.

 

[RegalBuster]

I'd prefer smaller icons just so they're all in one screen.

 

[Wishy]

One problem with the zelda throey.

Sakurai qutoe:

"You can save either Zelda or Peach, depending on which cage you damage more and subsequently break.



What will happen to the one you don’t save?!" (a.k.a. the zelda you saw in the video)

Yes but, I think, that it makes no difference in what happens next. Unless Sakurai shows an alternate storyline, where Peach gets captured and Kirby and Zelda fly away...

 

[Boofer]

Um, I think i'm missing something here (At least I think so). But.. why is everyone so Angry about this being the starting rooster. Who cares? If it's about how much characters can fit they can re-arange it, HECK they can make pages of characters. Or maybe a custom character select screen (An option where you pick the fighters you want to be on a rooster). Anyway I just don't get why everyone is so upset..@_@

2 main reasons:

1. Some characters that aren't there have no reason to be secrets. Kirby...I mean really, Kirby is one of the main Nintendo stars, plus he seems to be playable in the first SSE match. Why should he be an unlockable? Unlockables should be rewards for doing something special. I honestly don't think we deserve such a reward for beating the first match (I think it's the first match anyway). Not to mention, unlockables should be at least somewhat surprising.

2. The biggest reason is: fewer starters might mean fewer characters total... Wouldn't you expect more secrets if we were given more starters, based on the first few games? Personally, I wouldn't expect many characters if we started with only 14. I admit that what's true for the other games might not apply to this game, but the other games are really the only things we can base our speculation on aside from what's confirmed on the dojo. In the past we always got fewer secrets than starters; you do the math.

Though I admit that this might not necessarily be true if Panda's right about us unlocking characters rapidly. But his "rapid unlockables" part of the theory is based on Kirby and Zelda being unlockables. I really don't see that happening, regardless of my bias.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

Yes but, I think, that it makes no difference in what happens next. Unless Sakurai shows an alternate storyline, where Peach gets captured and Kirby and Zelda fly away...

... which is highly insanely very likely to be the case.

2 main reasons:

1. Some characters that aren't there have no reason to be secrets. Kirby...I mean really, Kirby is one of the main Nintendo stars, plus he seems to be playable in the first SSE match. Why should he be an unlockable? Unlockables should be rewards for doing something special. I honestly don't think we deserve such a reward for beating the first match (I think it's the first match anyway). Not to mention, unlockables should be at least somewhat surprising.

2. The biggest reason is: fewer starters might mean fewer characters total... Wouldn't you expect more secrets if we were given more starters, based on the first few games? Personally, I wouldn't expect many characters if we started with only 14. I admit that what's true for the other games might not apply to this game, but the other games are really the only things we can base our speculation on aside from what's confirmed on the dojo. In the past we always got fewer secrets than starters; you do the math.

Though I admit that this might not necessarily be true if Panda's right about us unlocking characters rapidly. But his "rapid unlockables" part of the theory is based on Kirby and Zelda being unlockables. I really don't see that happening, regardless of my bias.

I agree with your first point, but your second doesn't really hold water. The number of starters should have nothing to do with how many characters in total. Sakurai could start us off with Mario and Kirby for all I care, because you're undoubtedly going to run into Peach, Zelda, Pit, DK, Diddy, Fox, (maybe) Wario, and who knows who else you'll meet on your first play through. (Yes, I said "first". I expect to have to go through SsE at least twice, maybe three times + to find everybody.)

Remember, unlockable characters are completely different from secret characters. A common misconception.

 

[firedragon_jing]

I'm going to so laugh when the game comes out and the starting roster is bigger, and everyone who said this are true or was reasonable is completely wrong. Not to be mean or anything, but this theory just holds no water.

 

[Cless]

It is reasonable. Reasonable != true.

 

[Boofer]

... which is highly insanely very likely to be the case.



I agree with your first point, but your second doesn't really hold water. The number of starters should have nothing to do with how many characters in total. Sakurai could start us off with Mario and Kirby for all I care, because you're undoubtedly going to run into Peach, Zelda, Pit, DK, Diddy, Fox, (maybe) Wario, and who knows who else you'll meet on your first play through. (Yes, I said "first". I expect to have to go through SsE at least twice, maybe three times + to find everybody.)

Remember, that these are not my reasons why the theory is false, but the reasons why I'm unhappy with the theory. It's because of what I think could happen. I'm not saying that this starting roster should have something to do with the total, but my fear is that it does hint at the total. By no means do I want that to happen. This is based on my own speculation, and looking at melee's roster.

Remember, unlockable characters are completely different from secret characters. A common misconception.

True, but imo, it makes more sense for unlockable characters to be secret characters. Well, at least most of them.

 

[Charoo]

this thread is so long so I couldn't read everything but

when I was at e4all, you can watch the video and the second fight in SSE is u can pick either mario, kirby, peach, or zelda to fight those thnigs that was drop down.

Player 1 chose mario and then player 2 chose zelda. So take that as what u may.

Im sure there's a video of that online somewhere

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08IxqjyfkxA at 5:55

 

[orintemple]

It would be great if there were more unlockables than starters but considering the trend of the past two Smash games and the fact that they have the same developer as always that doesn't seem likely. The first game had 12 characters and the second had 25 so if we try to use some loopy math logic that probably has no ground whatsoever we should be looking at no less than 38 characters.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

here's a question for Samurai Panda. If this is the real roster than why aren't characters from the same series conjointed together like in melee and smash 64 (Dk next to diddy, Peach next to bowser), metaknight on the outside for when kirby and dedede are unlocked, pikachu on the outside when PT and jiggly are unlocked.....

Now here's why Sakurai would give us this picture from E for all instead of the main roster

1) to hide new starters yet to be revealed.

2) Because Sakurai isn't dense. He knows that we went to E for all and it's been a month so he made this update after the whole "bloody E4all" case. Therefore it wouldn't matter

3)Teh Mindgames

That's just something for the debate, I might come back later to give out more ideas or disclose pro SP conspiracy arguments.

 

[SinisterLizard]

here's a question for Samurai Panda. If this is the real roster than why aren't characters from the same series conjointed together like in melee and smash 64 (Dk next to diddy, Peach next to bowser), metaknight on the outside for when kirby and dedede are unlocked, pikachu on the outside when PT and jiggly are unlocked.....

Actually, I was just about to post this. This was my first thought when he started saying the thing about this being the actual starting roster. The number one thing in my mind that made me seriously doubt it was the fact that it didn't seem organized AT ALL. It's always been organized somewhat. Sure, in Melee it moved around a bit, but the starters who were related were at least organized from the beginning.

As you said, DK isn't by Diddy, and what stands out even more is that Mario, Peach, and Bowser are in completely different parts of the screen.

 

[vato_break]

Actually, I was just about to post this. This was my first thought when he started saying the thing about this being the actual starting roster. The number one thing in my mind that made me seriously doubt it was the fact that it didn't seem organized AT ALL. It's always been organized somewhat. Sure, in Melee it moved around a bit, but the starters who were related were at least organized from the beginning.

As you said, DK isn't by Diddy, and what stands out even more is that Mario, Peach, and Bowser are in completely different parts of the screen.

this is because this is brawl and peach doesn't like bowser

 

[Darkfur]

here's a question for Samurai Panda. If this is the real roster than why aren't characters from the same series conjointed together like in melee and smash 64 (Dk next to diddy, Peach next to bowser), metaknight on the outside for when kirby and dedede are unlocked, pikachu on the outside when PT and jiggly are unlocked.....

Not to sound redundant, and I still don't believe this could be true... but that point can easilly be countered by this fact:

Brawl is not Melee 2.0. There is no Guarantee that they will be doing things the same way with this game.

 

[SinisterLizard]

Brawl is not Melee 2.0. There is no Guarantee that they will be doing things the same way with this game.

That's a bunch of crap. There are precedents. Look how much has stayed the same in spite of all the changes. It's not like Melee was the first one, we have two games to look at to find a pattern. They've always been organized. And this just flat-out doesn't look organized at all.

Plus it would only make sense to do so, even if this was the very first game. I get tired of hearing "This isn't Melee 2.0." That may apply when talking about gameplay and such, but there is still plenty that makes Smash Smash.

 

[Kirby King]

"Brawl is not Melee 2.0" is an argument that works much better when it's applied to gameplay than to menus or character placement. You're right that nothing's guaranteed, even when it was the same as Melee, but things are more likely to happen when they also were true for SSB64 (aka, around here, Melee 0.5 beta). Sure enough, Mario was next to Luigi in that game, and Jigglypuff was next to Pikachu. Having characters from the same franchise placed together on the character select screen really just makes sense--it's not like it's a part of the game or disputable, like wavedashing. It just keeps the character select screen organized.

By the way, the Melee character select screen at E3 2001(?) was disorganized too. Plus, Kirby, Zelda, and Ice Climbers all weren't playable--curious coincidence? Or maybe it just has to do with development? Here's a link.

 

[Darkfur]

That's a bunch of crap. There are precedents. Look how much has stayed the same in spite of all the changes. It's not like Melee was the first one, we have two games to look at to find a pattern. They've always been organized. And this just flat-out doesn't look organized at all.

Plus it would only make sense to do so, even if this was the very first game. I get tired of hearing "This isn't Melee 2.0." That may apply when talking about gameplay and such, but there is still plenty that makes Smash Smash.

Just to be clear, I agree with you 100% there.

I was just saying that that could be said to counter it. I never said it was a good one. =p

 

[Chaosblade77]

Here's a thought:

From the previous two games, we know that there are three "stages" of characters.

1. Playable - Basically, these are the characters you can select.
2. Locked - These are the blocks with question marks on them
3. Hidden - These are the empty spaces on the sides, SURPRISE! Characters!

Now, even in your assumption, you say that the character blocks will shrink as more are unlocked, thus put in the "playable" category. Well, obviously, the game is capable of toggling the "stage" these characters are in, as well as move them around on the roster. Say two of those are actually hidden, he simply uses the dev kit build and manually turns them to playable. Other starters? He sets them to hidden.

Why would he use the demo roster? Simple: Sakurai knows that roster is out. He already said he knew how fast information travels across the internet, obviously he knew as soon as he announced the demo that people would give as much information as they could, as well as probably a few pictures and videos from cameras that were snuck in.

Basically, he knows the people who regularly check the updates know what that character select screen looks like. If he's not ready to reveal the real roster, just like he wasn't in the Names update, then put something in it's place. It also only makes sense because there are probably those few people who hadn't seen the demo character select, and they got the surprise of seeing that, possibly thinking the same thing as this theory: "That's the starting roster?" Buy the game... Surprise! It's different. Mindgamed.

Either way, there is some of evidence saying this could be the roster, but it's far from absolute, as is any theory so far.

 

[Greenpoe]

I think the starting rooster will be the first Smash's starting rooster, but if this is what the character select screen will be like, maybe some characters are already unlocked (like Ike, Pit, Sonic, or Metaknight).

 

[Wilfio]

thats not the starting roster i am sure of it. it's just Sakurai and his m1nd games. the roster is really messed up to begin with, everything is in odd places, melee was a slightly off but this is waaaay off, the mario people are all over the place. someone above explained that point very well. also i dont think that diddy is a starter, fans of the series will look forward to unlocking others from the series and as it stands now all the DK fanchise is available right from the word go. i dont think that is right, it makes sense that diddy would be unlockable even if he is one of the very early ones. the reason i think he is there is that Sakurai wanted to show off as many of the new characters on the demo as possible yet still have a fairly plausible starting roster/base set of characters. i am sure that we dont know the whole story here, Sakurai is just confusing us with his 1337 m1ndgam3s

 

[RegalBuster]

I think the starting rooster will be the first Smash's starting rooster, but if this is what the character select screen will be like, maybe some characters are already unlocked (like Ike, Pit, Sonic, or Metaknight).

XD that's pretty funny how wrong your going to be.