Starcraft Discussion

[Alphicans]

True, but you don't get the same features like you do with chaos launcher.

EDIT: This is in response to Ace's shield slap strategy.

I've come to realize how effective it can be against terran. A 2fac will seldom work, and bunker rushes are hard to pull off. I've come up with two ways to beat it. Choice 1 is proxi rax.

This is what I would do. Keep in mind you wouldn't the protoss is doing the shield slap or not, so this isn't a counter, just a strategy that beats it.

6 send scv to mid
7-8 build rax
9build supply
10 another rax
pump marines and attack.
Add scv's as needed.

Alright if you catch a protoss doing the shield slap and you miraculously do this, you should win. Now for a more realistic approach. It isn't a build, but a strategy. The shield slap is slow to tech to goons, which means slow to tech to observers. I suggest you single fac FE, but instead of getting a tank and upgrading siege, get vultures and upgrade mines. With a vulture producing you can also afford another fac, cool huh? After mines are done researching, get speed. Vultures cost little cash, so macro like a beast. Scout the map. laying mines all over, there is nothing a shield slap toss can do for awhile, so take advantage of it. If you catch him trying to expand, attack it! 1 FE is bad enough, if he gets too far ahead, you auto lose. I suggest you mine the expansion, and bring in tanks with siege upgrades, and destroy it. At this time his observer tower will be complete, and he will be on his way for a counter attack, so defend up, and expand. Now you're ahead of him, if done perfectly. This will be hard, due to the number of units toss will have, but remember! He has no observers, attacking head on will be risky for protoss.

Continue the game by macroing, and doing serious harassment on all expos. Terran, you can take control of the game, if you play well. Shield slap is a very viable build, and should not be taken lightly. It will take more than a counter expo to beat it.

 

[unknownPresence]

mogwai, i did come off that way and i apologize, but you have to understand one player cant account for a matchup like this. jaedong is currently the best sc player right now, im sure we all agree, but the past has shown that terran players beat zerg on a consistent basis. But i do apologize for trying to demean you, i didnt mean to do that.

BTW, speaking of old zerg stompers does any1 know if boxer will unretire or will he become another crazy announcer and instead of going PLAGUE he'll go I INVENTED ALL TERRAN STRATS.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

EDIT: This is in response to Ace's shield slap strategy.

I've come to realize how effective it can be against terran. A 2fac will seldom work, and bunker rushes are hard to pull off. I've come up with two ways to beat it. Choice 1 is proxi rax.

This is what I would do. Keep in mind you wouldn't the protoss is doing the shield slap or not, so this isn't a counter, just a strategy that beats it.

6 send scv to mid
7-8 build rax
9build supply
10 another rax
pump marines and attack.
Add scv's as needed.

Okay, yes dt rush beats 4gate dragoon rush, 4gate dragoon rush beats 2gate expand. Nothing new here really.

Alright if you catch a protoss doing the shield slap and you miraculously do this, you should win. Now for a more realistic approach. It isn't a build, but a strategy. The shield slap is slow to tech to goons, which means slow to tech to observers. I suggest you single fac FE, but instead of getting a tank and upgrading siege, get vultures and upgrade mines. With a vulture producing you can also afford another fac, cool huh?

I sure hope you can afford another factory after you fast expand, you can do that when you get tanks too. The only difference here is since you didn't get an initial tank your fast expand should be a bit faster than normal.

After mines are done researching, get speed. Vultures cost little cash, so macro like a beast. Scout the map. laying mines all over, there is nothing a shield slap toss can do for awhile, so take advantage of it.

If you catch him trying to expand, attack it! 1 FE is bad enough, if he gets too far ahead, you auto lose. I suggest you mine the expansion, and bring in tanks with siege upgrades, and destroy it. At this time his observer tower will be complete, and he will be on his way for a counter attack, so defend up, and expand. Now you're ahead of him, if done perfectly. This will be hard, due to the number of units toss will have, but remember! He has no observers, attacking head on will be risky for protoss.

Continue the game by macroing, and doing serious harassment on all expos. Terran, you can take control of the game, if you play well. Shield slap is a very viable build, and should not be taken lightly. It will take more than a counter expo to beat it.

For a little background I'm currently 4-0 against Alphicans with the Shield Slap, in the past few days, and 5-0 all-time. I haven't perfected the shield slap, in my very last game against Alphicans I saw there was still a lot I could improve. My macro was sloppy, I am a pretty rusty player. Anyways...to the specifics.

I went to get my third base and found vultures nagging at me. At this point I only had 2 or 3 dragoons *at the base*. Eventually Alphicans sent down 7~8 vultures and destroyed those dragoons. So what do I think? No **** sherlock. If I don't have adequate dragoon defense at the third base then of course it'll get messed up. At this point he got to set around a lot of mines and make life dfficult for me, not difficult enough to where I couldn't win though.

Anyways back to the point, so what to do about those vultures? Very simple really, just send more dragoons to defend. I was being conservative against a radical vulture raid, it doesn't matter what strategy you use, DT rush, reaver drop into expansion, regular 1gate expansion, of course you're going to lose out to a large amount of vultures when you don't have adequate defenses *stationed* at your third base. So I'd like to make three major points in all of this...

1. Alphicans says my strategy is countered and he hasn't beat it yet. In these stages of infancy he assumes that the strategy has no hope of adapting while he has been adapting his strategy to counter mine. That's fine, but I can also adapt, which he seems to assume I am incapable of. In this case all I have to do is send more dragoons to defend my third base. At worst I might lose a dragoon or two if his intial few vultures get the chance to set a few mines. After that all I have to do are have more dragoons to defend my base until I get a cannon or two up, something I DIDN'T do in our last game, because, as I said, these things are still in the stage of infancy.
2. Protoss will still have a superior economy because of an earlier expansion with healthy probe production. This will allow you to macro your way out of almost any situation.
3. I have a much later robotics facility because I opt for 3-5 gateways before getting my robotics facility. It is conceivable to be perfectly safe in getting observers faster if you know what you are doing.

Alphican's strategy goes a good ways towards fighting the Shield Slap, but it isn't a counter or an auto-win. A well performed 2-factory push may still be the best counter. Lastly I am not sure if Alphican's third base can even survive, in our third game it did not survive and the only difference was that I had adequate dragoon defense. Time will tell.

 

[unknownPresence]

u seem to have learned a lot for one build after just a couple of games, it would take me at least 5 games too see the error of a build unless it was obvious.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

Alphicans (I call him Alphicans, his intended name) and I are competitive so we dive in as far as we can. Remembering strategies for me is extremely easy because I've remembered hundreds, so when I learn or make a new strategy I can summarize it in terms of other strategies and variations. For example strategy A might be Strategy B, which I already know, only at the point where you expand you instead do C, which I also already know. And that would be all I would have to remember. Other times I just apply common sense.

 

[unknownPresence]

oh, well i have a build order and about 5 minutes in I wing it, not recomended but at least you confuse your opponent even if you end up confusing yourself (plus i play ppl who are confused but solid enuff to **** me anyway XD)

of course when i played sc a hella lot i was more precise in what i did, but for me i cant rlly do that anymore, maybe ill try and get back into sc.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

Yeah. To remember a build order precisely takes a bit more focus. I've done that with some build orders, sometimes the order has like 30 very precise steps you have to take. I once learned one of Bisu's PvT strategies note for note, but I never actually used it much because it just didn't seem to work out for me. You'll probably be best off if you play the way you like to play, whether that is using modern strategies, old school strategies, unorthodox strategies, rushes, whatever it is.

Speaking of rushes, the God of all Protoss Rushes:

7 Psi ---> Probe to the middle of the map.
8 Pylon
9 Gateway
9 Gateway
Probe Probe
Zealot
Pylon
Zealot
Zealot
Probe
Zealot
Probe
Zealot
Pylon
Zealot

This rush can be done against any race, but to break it down...

PvT: This is a really nice rush against a terran. Hopefully they do not wall, if they do then you have a couple options. Either you can forge it or go for the dragoons. There is a slight variation off of the build I postd above in which you get a gas while you have a net amount of 3 zealots in existence and on their way, and tech to dragoons. It's very good against terran, and the forge is also okay. If you get inside terran's base then I like the forge, build a pylon in their base, and make cannons. If you do this then just make sure you have plenty of zealots, it shouldn't be hard at all to pull off a win at this point.

PvZ: If you do this build on a map such as Python then you'll probably lose if zerg scouts you out. Otherwise your main concern should be whether or not zerg can defend their main base. You should be able to destroy zerg's expasion. Zerg will respond in one of two ways, either they will try to defend their expansion in which case you will hopefully win (but beware, this does take good zealot micro, you'll probably have ~150-200 apm, it sounds like a lot but if you hotkey and rally your gateways it shouldn't be as hard as it sounds).

Quick Micro Breakdown: Basically don't engage in battles that you will lose and try not to ever let a zealot die. Those are the two most important things.

Anyways the other possibility is that zerg will let their expansion die and defend their main. Try to stop them if you can, but if you can't then just form a zealot blockade on their ramp and either start teching or expanding and defend your hardest or go for the three gateways and put your hope in low tech macro and cannon defense. You should win most of your games, against very good zerg players this may be tricky but not impossible.

Lastly if zerg does a 9pool or perhaps something nearly as fast then you might just out right lose. This rush is quite risky against zerg but if zerg does the normal build order then you should have a very good chance of winning.

PvP: If your opponent goes 2gate then you probably lose, but don't give up! Do your best to micro, you have no idea how far dedication and micro can take you. You can actually pull out a win just by microing your zealots intelligently, don't panick or stop trying. Also often times you can pick off zealots at their ramp while they are trying to tech up and in this scenario you will be glad you took my advice and kept trying. Anyways your opponent will probably have a single gateway in which case you are in luck. Whatever you do, keep the zealots coming. Expert dragoon/probe micro might win them the day so you need to really stay on your toes and keep macroing and microing. You should have the upper hand, don't try to pylon blockade their gateway (3 pyons = stuck dragoon) unless you have an adequate amount of zealots in their base and in transit.

Enjoy. And yes, the build order is very important to remember if you want to do this, but well worth the effort since you get a great rush you can do against any race and lastly there are a lot of 2gate variations against zerg that might strike you as familiar if you also know this build.

 

[Alphicans]

Terran! Listen, if you can wall, do it, unless you are 100% confident that you can hold off a rush. Walls are the anti-toss rush. Unless they go all in with cannons and all, a wall should stop any rush.

If rushed and you have no wall, I am assuming you already know what to do, but just to be clear. Do not get a bunker, unless you know it's going to save you money in the long run. I cannot stress enough, if you can save your self a bunker don't build one.

A little trick that I learned from Hwasin, is the immortal marine. (That's what I like to call it). If you are in a position where the comsat side is sticking away from the minerals, you can build a barracks there, and put a rine in between the rax and CC. When the rine is there, probes and zlots cannot attack it! Micro a couple marines around that area, and you can stop the most brutal zlot rushes.

 

[Bruneo]

nice a starcraft discussion. for one i cant wait for 2 and protoss was my fav race. i havent played in a while but they hve some nice ****. peronally terran are the best for air assault i think and zerg are horrinle they have those big purple things that just carry people. i dot like it much altho it provdeas some round troops to the attack.

IM not much of a rusher i like to build my base get a defense to stop early small rushes. then get my group and destroy there base lol or a least when i used to plpay XD

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

Terran! Listen, if you can wall, do it, unless you are 100% confident that you can hold off a rush. Walls are the anti-toss rush. Unless they go all in with cannons and all, a wall should stop any rush.

If rushed and you have no wall, I am assuming you already know what to do, but just to be clear. Do not get a bunker, unless you know it's going to save you money in the long run. I cannot stress enough, if you can save your self a bunker don't build one.

A little trick that I learned from Hwasin, is the immortal marine. (That's what I like to call it). If you are in a position where the comsat side is sticking away from the minerals, you can build a barracks there, and but a rine in between the rax and CC. When the rine is there, probes and zlots cannot attack it! Micro a couple marines around that area, and you can stop the most brutal zlot rushes.

This is good advice. I also share the sentiment that if you can wall, then do wall. Still walls are not required and if you don't wall the immortal marine trick works great. What Alphicans did't mention (but of course knows) is that another way to stop zealot harass or rushes is to take out a few scvs and micro your scvs and marines very well. Another thing that should be noted is that if you are being zealot rushed then only get the vulture before shop if necessary. I know some rush builds that follow up with dragoons right after a strong zealot rush. The absolute most important thing is just not to lose your marines though, if you can keep them alive you should be fine.

 

[Matt07]

Any Starcraft beginners want to have a few matches against me? Just send a message in this board, and what realm you want .

 

[unknownPresence]

ace inst that just a proxy build order? if so

A. T you guys mentioned wall already and what i do against zerg rushers is i sacrifice faster mineral production and just pur 2 or 3 scvs to block ur ramp when u finish ur first marine and pkace the rine right behind them and cover it with ur rax.

B. Z well ace already said it, good zerg players will stop protoss proxy builds (Im not a good z player), so I just 9 pool toss which is what ace mentioned.

C. P well i rarely see some1 not two gate pvp unless they fast expand.

And Ace what you said in the micro breakdown about not letting a zealot die, isnt it true with toss u nvr want a unit to die, unlike the other races where one or two units is expendable.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

ace inst that just a proxy build order? if so

"Just" a proxy build order? This is a professional, grade A proxy build that is worthy of any one's attenton from time to time.

A. T you guys mentioned wall already and what i do against zerg rushers is i sacrifice faster mineral production and just pur 2 or 3 scvs to block ur ramp when u finish ur first marine and pkace the rine right behind them and cover it with ur rax.

If you covered your wall with a barracks against a zerg rush then that is one barracks you can't be using. All zerg and terran timings I can think of would either have it that you would be fine anyways or you wouldn't have time to get this set-up, but if there is such a thing as a zerg rush that requires this drastic measure to win and also is slow enough for you to get this set up then I suppose it is good. I should note that this won't really work against protoss because it is extremely doubtful that you will know it is coming before it is too late, and even so there is only a very small window of time that you might be able to get such a set up.

B. Z well ace already said it, good zerg players will stop protoss proxy builds (Im not a good z player), so I just 9 pool toss which is what ace mentioned.

I don't know what you mean by good players will stop protoss proxy builds. I beat a _V_ member once with a protoss proxy build, and they were zerg. What I was saying was that it requires good micro, and that if you micro good then you should have the upper hand. If you don't micro well then a good zerg can very very very easily stop it, but if you micro good then it will be very very very hard to stop. That is what I meant.

About the nine pool, once again, it is doubtful that the zerg will scout it in time. The only serious possibility is that you are on a map like python and their overlord reaches your base to find nothing, and even then they might just assume you are fast expanding. Given all of this, of course I wouldn't recommend the build on some maps like Blue Storm. I'm leaving it up to the reader to decide when to use this strategy, every great player has to run the numbers and play the mind game.

C. P well i rarely see some1 not two gate pvp unless they fast expand.

Then I don't know who you are playing with. 2Gate is decently common but 1gate is the most common build of them all, unless it is a flat map. Fast expanding in PvP is quite rare, even if the map provides a good opportunity for it.

And Ace what you said in the micro breakdown about not letting a zealot die, isnt it true with toss u nvr want a unit to die, unlike the other races where one or two units is expendable.

In small battles against zerglings with zealots when you see a zealot getting ganged up on or a zealot that is nearing death then you should grab that zealot, move it back 2-3 steps, and then send it back into combat. In large battles usually you don't do this so much, so I emphasized it here.

 

[unknownPresence]

maybe i confused you with the wall. I meant build one depot then a rax and then send 2-3 scvs while the rine is building, then when the rine is finished cover that force with the rax. This should be done by time a zerg player rushes with 6 lings or a toss player sends 1 zealot.

XD i rarely play pvp so what i said isnt valid i guess.

this is probably wrong, but when i fast expand i follow it up with sunks almost immidieatly so good micro with zealots is pointless, building speed would seem more important and micro would seem to be stressed more on the zerg player so he can get his sunks up and make it so you dont enter his//her main.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

maybe i confused you with the wall. I meant build one depot then a rax and then send 2-3 scvs while the rine is building, then when the rine is finished cover that force with the rax. This should be done by time a zerg player rushes with 6 lings or a toss player sends 1 zealot.

I see. In TvZ a wall seems to make you even more vulnerable since zerglings can slip through and your barracks is "far away and lonely," an excellent target for a group of zerglings. As for a game against protoss it would help definitely, I'm not sure how the timing would work out but if I had to guess I'd say terran would be fine if they were prompt.

XD i rarely play pvp so what i said isnt valid i guess.

To say you are wrong is far too strong an assessment. What you said was true, you stated your observations. I then stated mine. In this sense, we are both right about knowing what we have seen. I used to play the game quite a bit more competitively so I lean towards the side of people 1gating on ramp maps more often, I could be wrong but that is the side I lean towards given the games I've seen.

this is probably wrong, but when i fast expand i follow it up with sunks almost immidieatly so good micro with zealots is pointless, building speed would seem more important and micro would seem to be stressed more on the zerg player so he can get his sunks up and make it so you dont enter his//her main.

This cetainly isn't wrong, but perhaps not the whole story. To do a bit more of a technical breakdown there are two builds that involve a fast expansion...

The Regular
9 Overlord
12 Expand
11 Pool
13 Hatchey
6 Zerglings / Sunk Optional

and...
9 Expand
9 Pool
9 Overlord
8 Zerglings

Most likely any other build and you will have to rely on zerglings to defend for a while until you can get sunks, and in the case of facing a proxy gate you better either mass zerglings for the kill or defend up and go for lurkers, mutas, or hydras.

Anyways if you do the "Regular" expand then yes sunken colonies would be a required defensive measure if you are to save your expansion, however the timing of the proxy gate has it to where even with very good defense and several sunken colonies immediately building as soon as the creep allows...you would still probably lose. To contrast, defending against a fast gateway build that isn't proxied is challenging but almost always possible if you act quicly, however against proxy gates it is usually a different story.

As for the variation I provided, one that I learned from Mondragon, you will defend with no trouble and have the potential to strike back in a variety of ways. I would say that this build is probably the mortal enemy of the proxy gates, but it isn't a very popular build at all. That isn't to say it isn't solid, it gives you a fair economy with a nice kick. It's very beginniner-friendly as well.

 

[Cynan Machae]

Ok so I get this Hun thing working, just wondering, who's playing from there?

Others, where are you playing? If anyone is interested to paly I'd like to

 

[Alphicans]

How could Hwasin lose? He played so sloppily, jesus christ! I wanted him to win soooo badly, because I wanted him to beat Bisu's face into the ground.

 

[unknownPresence]

Whoops, forgot to mention some stuff Ace. You build the rax close to the ramp, and when the rine is finished u cover that force with the rax. this will take very little time, and when the lings or zealots come they will try to attck the marine but fail bc of the scv's, and the rax will prevent the player from targeting the scv's.

Also idk if you mentioned this already, but if the zerg player felt like rushing and 9 pooled, wouldnt that win for zerg?

 

[pockyD]

what's the point? terran should be able to hold off a zergling rush without resorting to weird gimmicks

especially given that floating your barracks instead of using it to produce marines is very very counterproductive; you may as well just do a ling-proof wall-in and repair

 

[PMKNG]

I can't wait for 2 either.
Got back into starcraft a few months ago, got reacquainted with my old friends the terran.
I'm not that great though, cause when i downloaded brood war off of blizzard it just made me feel dumb.
So idk, id like to get some practice before two comes out

 

[Gosu_Engineer]

I can't wait for 2 either.
Got back into starcraft a few months ago, got reacquainted with my old friends the terran.
I'm not that great though, cause when i downloaded brood war off of blizzard it just made me feel dumb.
So idk, id like to get some practice before two comes out

I don't really think that will help too much. That's like using melee to practice for brawl; while they are similiar and share many general ideas, the gameplay is too different to use one to train for the other.

At least I hope SC II proves to have more depth and changes up gameplay a little and not just be Brood War with better graphics

 

[unknownPresence]

what's the point? terran should be able to hold off a zergling rush without resorting to weird gimmicks

especially given that floating your barracks instead of using it to produce marines is very very counterproductive; you may as well just do a ling-proof wall-in and repair

well terran can hold off a ling rush, but at the cost of a rine and some scv's, with this no melee attack unit will do any harm and u can mine freely until u can make a factory or another rax which will occur pretty quickly. When a zerg player rushes, he//she will usually have 6 lings by the time u have one rine max, and this will allow no unit to be destroyed.

 

[Alphicans]

Depending on what kind of zerg rush. If it's 4 pool, then 1 rine, if 9 pool, then 3 rines.

 

[pockyD]

you mine freely... except the 3 scvs that are tied up not mining, and the extra resources you have to spend on another barracks so that you can actually make some units

losing 2 SCV and a marine to fight off a 9pool is easily a win for the terran

 

[unknownPresence]

to alphican: i think a 6 pool rush would be more common in which case one rine while one is half way done at best. 9 pool 2 rines with 3 on its way in which case the victor would be decided by first strike (err at least the person who has a better chance of winning).

to pocky: getting a second rax should be ez with 6-7 scv's and by the time u get enuff to rines to defend with out the scv's the refinery should be up and those 2-3 scv's can be used for gas and u have a pretty standard build from thr whether u want to build a fac(toss) or academy(zerg).

 

[Eraserhead]

Loved the first SC, slightly disappointed that the second one is coming out in 3 parts, but hey, it's Blizzard, I trust them.

 

[pockyD]

to alphican: i think a 6 pool rush would be more common in which case one rine while one is half way done at best. 9 pool 2 rines with 3 on its way in which case the victor would be decided by first strike (err at least the person who has a better chance of winning).

to pocky: getting a second rax should be ez with 6-7 scv's and by the time u get enuff to rines to defend with out the scv's the refinery should be up and those 2-3 scv's can be used for gas and u have a pretty standard build from thr whether u want to build a fac(toss) or academy(zerg).

except you're probably 30-60 seconds behind where you'd be if you didn't decide to do this

 

[ZeroFox]

Meh, I play Terran and Protoss. I'm not actually that good though. I've played a ton of games on a competitive level, but not Starcraft surprisingly.

 

[h3gi]

I play Protoss competitively, but I want to get better at Terran. Anyone wanna play me? I'm h3gi on East, but I can play West just as fine.

 

[unknownPresence]

h3gi i play on west as demnsamurai[ef], im not on often anymore, but if i evr am feel free to offer a game


Pocky, i agree that u would be behind in time, but u would stop a rush which would probably put a zerg plyr behind at a failed 6pool 4pool rush, and its bttr to a lil behind and not use any units bc once u can stop a rush without gimmicks like this u will be able to bounce back quickly with the units saved.

 

[Pakman]

Do all you guys use Hamachi to play against each other?

 

[pockyD]

h3gi i play on west as demnsamurai[ef], im not on often anymore, but if i evr am feel free to offer a game


Pocky, i agree that u would be behind in time, but u would stop a rush which would probably put a zerg plyr behind at a failed 6pool 4pool rush, and its bttr to a lil behind and not use any units bc once u can stop a rush without gimmicks like this u will be able to bounce back quickly with the units saved.

fine, so you'd be ahead vs a 4/5 pool, even with anything before 9pool, and behind vs 9pool or 12hatch (which just happen to be by far the two overwhelmingly standard openings)

so great; if you KNOW they're 4pooling, go ahead and barracks on 8 and burn your SCVs blocking the ramp

 

[Alphicans]

What exactly are you suggesting Pocky? What should terran do against a 4 pool rush, if they do not know about it soon enough? I think taking out scvs is well worth a terran's time and money, and if held off successfully enough you will be ahead by a lot. 8 rax is ideal, you are correct about that, and I've seen that as an opening before, so it's a viable counter.

Other than that though, I am getting the impression that you think pulling scvs is a bad thing. Saying that terran is behind is true, but don't you see that zerg would be behind as well? A 4 pool rush is a huge gamble, and if failed to a high enough degree means the game.

 

[pockyD]

building in this manner is suggesting that you are expecting a 4pool, whereas I would guess that it will in reality happen less than 1% of the time

I suggest that if the zerg has the guts to 4pool and the luck to find you on his first try, then let him have the upper hand in that game instead of accepting a disadvantage in all other situations

 

[Alphicans]

Upper hand? It's a matter of win or loss. 4 pool is an all in strat, it's either you win or lose, no upper hand (unless your opponent really sucks). The only way I can see any terran surviving is to pull scv's I can't see any other away around it, unless you bunkered for some reason, or got a map where you can wall zerg (destination).

 

[pockyD]

yes; what's your point? that terran should always build barracks on 8 by the ramp with scvs standing by in preparation to lift off, just in case?

 

[Alphicans]

No I am saying build barracks at 10, and when rushed use scvs.

 

[pockyD]

so if you don't disagree with me, why are you arguing with me?

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

How could Hwasin lose? He played so sloppily, jesus christ! I wanted him to win soooo badly, because I wanted him to beat Bisu's face into the ground.

Dream on!

Whoops, forgot to mention some stuff Ace. You build the rax close to the ramp, and when the rine is finished u cover that force with the rax. this will take very little time, and when the lings or zealots come they will try to attck the marine but fail bc of the scv's, and the rax will prevent the player from targeting the scv's.

Also idk if you mentioned this already, but if the zerg player felt like rushing and 9 pooled, wouldnt that win for zerg?

Yes, -_-, I mentioned that first thing. The only point I made was that it completely depends on their choice of build, they can't scout and *then* go 9pool as the result of scouting, it'll be too late to change their build.

what's the point? terran should be able to hold off a zergling rush without resorting to weird gimmicks

especially given that floating your barracks instead of using it to produce marines is very very counterproductive; you may as well just do a ling-proof wall-in and repair

I mentioned this, the chance that hovering your barracks will be necessary is quite low. A terran may have to use other means of defense against a zerg rush though.

Depending on what kind of zerg rush. If it's 4 pool, then 1 rine, if 9 pool, then 3 rines.

That sounds about right.

you mine freely... except the 3 scvs that are tied up not mining, and the extra resources you have to spend on another barracks so that you can actually make some units

losing 2 SCV and a marine to fight off a 9pool is easily a win for the terran

That would seem to put zerg ahead to me...

to alphican: i think a 6 pool rush would be more common in which case one rine while one is half way done at best. 9 pool 2 rines with 3 on its way in which case the victor would be decided by first strike (err at least the person who has a better chance of winning).

6pool is actually a kind of wacky rush that isn't as common as 4pool/5pool. I usually think 6pool is more of a team thing or a build to use when you really want to pressure your opponent but don't expect to win.

Do all you guys use Hamachi to play against each other?

s]H-Galaxy@USWest
I train fast and low. I'm a fan of the game and I used to play competitively but retired.

What exactly are you suggesting Pocky? What should terran do against a 4 pool rush, if they do not know about it soon enough? I think taking out scvs is well worth a terran's time and money, and if held off successfully enough you will be ahead by a lot. 8 rax is ideal, you are correct about that, and I've seen that as an opening before, so it's a viable counter.

Other than that though, I am getting the impression that you think pulling scvs is a bad thing. Saying that terran is behind is true, but don't you see that zerg would be behind as well? A 4 pool rush is a huge gamble, and if failed to a high enough degree means the game.

Failed 4 pool is virtually an auto-lose, that is true.

building in this manner is suggesting that you are expecting a 4pool, whereas I would guess that it will in reality happen less than 1% of the time

I suggest that if the zerg has the guts to 4pool and the luck to find you on his first try, then let him have the upper hand in that game instead of accepting a disadvantage in all other situations

This isn't a very ideal evaluation. First there are certain maps in which the 4pool can be expected much more sensibly like blood bath. Second, the 5pool will find you on the first try (on a 4player map) and is only 2 seconds slower than the 4pool. If you want the build order I can give it to you. With all this said, if a 4pool means an auto-lose then what a bunch of trouble terran players are in! Much better is to simply play conservative and defend properly. That is---make a bunker and block with scvs while microing marine(s) as needed.

Upper hand? It's a matter of win or loss. 4 pool is an all in strat, it's either you win or lose, no upper hand (unless your opponent really sucks). The only way I can see any terran surviving is to pull scv's I can't see any other away around it, unless you bunkered for some reason, or got a map where you can wall zerg (destination).

You can bunker once you see it coming. Generally, at worst, you won't know it is coming until you see the zerglings coming into your main base. At this point you can start a bunker and block with scvs. If you micro well you have a good chance of stopping the rush.

yes; what's your point? that terran should always build barracks on 8 by the ramp with scvs standing by in preparation to lift off, just in case?

An 8rax stops a 4pool without needing any tricks.

No I am saying build barracks at 10, and when rushed use scvs.

Or a barracks at 11 s more standard, but both are pretty much fine. Yes using scvs is key.

 

[unknownPresence]

hmm I guess i do lose this arguement in a 1v1 match, but in a 2v2 i usually do this as terran when my i dont have a terran opponent. lets say they both 4pool or even both 9 pool, if they double rush you ur partner will be able to do a lot of damage to them but they will most likely survive leaving the defendant crippled.

But I admit that in a 1v1 u would be bttr off building a rax at 10 or 11, but i do believe that if zerg were to kill off 1 or 2 rines and 2 scv's then zerg would be ahead.

Also a 4pool done unsuccessfully is generally a loss, but this would also depend on the map. I saw a match where july attempted a 4 pool and didnt kill his opponent (I believe it was rush hour, not sure though), but he managed to get a sunk and two lings up by the time his opponent tried to counter with some zealots due to the spacing of the bases. Of course you would need to be at a pro level to attack and manage your resources as effectively as this, but i dont neccessarily think that an unsuccessful 4pool rush is a loss.

Hate to bring up old arguments too, but did any1 c boxers win with valks (hehe)