Starcraft Discussion

[Warrior of Zarona]

omg i wanna play

 

[Mogwai]

omg i wanna play

then play!

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

that build order was ambiguous enough that it could easily be seen as the same build the rock has been doing since the dawn of time

It doesn't need to be very specific, I leave some options open for the player. When I type strategies that go into mid or late game I usually don't bother with building and unit timings, for the early game builds I do though. You can opt for a reaver or not for example. I don't really pay attention to the strategies that players do "since the dawn of time." If The Rock has been doing this a lot then that's great.

You seem to be thinking that I was creating a strategy. This strategy I did not create, this one is straight from the books and has been going on for a while.

 

[pockyD]

i'll play tonight

you never ask me to play anymore. SCURRED?

It doesn't need to be very specific, I leave some options open for the player. When I type strategies that go into mid or late game I usually don't bother with building and unit timings, for the early game builds I do though. You can opt for a reaver or not for example. I don't really pay attention to the strategies that players do "since the dawn of time." If The Rock has been doing this a lot then that's great.

You seem to be thinking that I was creating a strategy. This strategy I did not create, this one is straight from the books and has been going on for a while.

right, so then why post it?

is "make zealots, then attack" worth posting? -_-

"standard" builds are standard

 

[Matt07]

I used to play this game, but I'm not so good at it. I can't even beat a computer .

 

[Mogwai]

i'll play tonight

you never ask me to play anymore. SCURRED?

Yea, you're mad rigged -_-.

Na, it's just that we start at like 7 or something and you're a loser and work on the west coast and shit. We should be starting up again in a couple minutes.

I used to play this game, but I'm not so good at it. I can't even beat a computer .

lol, I used to beat 2 comps by just cannon rushing both of them. Go here, l2play and you'll be good in no time.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

I posted the strategy because it is not very common and many people may not know about it. Many people may want to try it out.

If I was posting a strategy about making zealots and attacking, which I will, I'll use very specific build orders such as...

PvZ

8 Pylon
9 Gateway ---> Scout
Probe
10 Gateway
Probe
Zealot
Pylon
Zealot
Zealot
Probe / Zealot
Probe / Zealot
Pylon
Zealot

...etc.
This build is known as the 9/10 gate, low-eco variation.



s]H-Galaxy@USWest
(I know it's a fastest clan, no I'm not just a fastest player no I'm not rusty in low money, I'm primarily a low player)

Matt07:
Try following these guidelines...
1. Never stop making workers. Your nexus/command center should never stop flashing.
2. Spend all your money always, don't let it sit around doing nothing.
3. Retreat when you are fighting a battle you are going to lose or are losing.

Also, keep it simple at first. Macro lots of zealots and dragoons or somehing.

If you're a zerg then it'll require more instruction.
gosugamers.net
teamliquid.net

These two sites are pretty useful for replays/help. Also I can train you if you want.

 

[Matt07]

lol, I used to beat 2 comps by just cannon rushing both of them. Go here, l2play and you'll be good in no time.

Thanks for the help, I will definately check that out, and help improve my skills.

 

[pockyD]

you can't teach zerg

 

[Alphicans]

Idk, ace is a pretty good trainer. He really watches a lot of replays, and analyzes the game properly. I don't think it's fair how you assume he can't teach zerg.

 

[pockyD]

not "you" can't teach zerg

one can't teach zerg

 

[Alphicans]

What? Is that supposed to be a joke?

 

[pockyD]

no, not really

zerg is very much dependent on game sense and intuition; things you can only learn from experience, not instruction

 

[Matt07]

no, not really

zerg is very much dependent on game sense and intuition; things you can only learn from experience, not instruction

Ah, well good thing I use Terrans then .

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

Teaching isn't only about giving them knowledge, it's also about teaching them how to teach themselves. I certainly teach my trainees how to teach themselves as well as teach them raw material, guidelines, and perspective on the game.

You*can* learn zerg textbook style, of course you can't become an expert at hardly anything with only a textbook, but it does help a lot and is most likely required. One can teach many things about zerg such as how to time your larvae spending to where you have exactly 9 larvae when a spire finishes, etc etc. You can also teach them how to micromanage their units. The list goes on.

As far as teaching them game sense while it would be quite difficult to teach them it without them practicing you can aid the process. For example you could explain to them that if terran doesn't expand right away or gets two barracks then they can expect a hard push fast. They probably on't be prepared for it at first but eventually they'll make a connection and if I never told them about it they may or may not have picked up on it as fast. It might sound stupid to you but when I have a new player as a trainee they end up with a LOT on their minds and simple thigs slip their minds as they try to "juggle" all that I've handed them.

 

[unknownPresence]

i used to be a random main (lol i know thats terrible), and then i dabbled with terran and toss, then i recently switched to zerg. i dont play often to claim i am a good zerg but i have come to learn somethings.
1. you can teach any race, what pocky said about intuition is true but i believe that to be true with all races, if i go hydralurk and my opponent is attempting a rush build order, i better have the sense to switch to lurkerling.
2. although it depends on the players skill, i have come to understand a good zerg player should beat a good toss, most of the zvp ic z wins, and although p does win z holds the majority.
I hate to admit it too but the 2002/2003 pimpest play match at the end was one of the best games i have seen as well and z lost ohh well.

 

[Mogwai]

i used to be a random main (lol i know thats terrible), and then i dabbled with terran and toss, then i recently switched to zerg. i dont play often to claim i am a good zerg but i have come to learn somethings.
1. you can teach any race, what pocky said about intuition is true but i believe that to be true with all races, if i go hydralurk and my opponent is attempting a rush build order, i better have the sense to switch to lurkerling.
2. although it depends on the players skill, i have come to understand a good zerg player should beat a good toss, most of the zvp ic z wins, and although p does win z holds the majority.
I hate to admit it too but the 2002/2003 pimpest play match at the end was one of the best games i have seen as well and z lost ohh well.

craft is pretty balanced, top players of each race beat top players of each other race.

Jaedong should beat everyone though because he's too f'in' good.

 

[unknownPresence]

craft is pretty balanced, top players of each race beat top players of each other race.

Jaedong should beat everyone though because he's too f'in' good.

lol well he and flash have a boxer-yellow relation goin but anyway if you look at the all time records. Starcraft is balanced in the rock-paper-scissors sense.
T beat Z
Z beats P
P beats T

there are always exceptions but the majority of matches support this idea. if you want some examples look at boxer and firebathero they have great records against zerg but their toss records are shaky. much and grr have good records against terran but not zerg, yellow and julyzerg have good records against toss but not terran.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

craft is pretty balanced, top players of each race beat top players of each other race.

Jaedong should beat everyone though because he's too f'in' good.

Jaedong is a whole new class of progamers. When I play a lot of my friends it is pretty obvious from the start that I will win. Mondragn is an amazing foreign progamer that beats most other foreign progamers 80% of the time. Jaedong is a superior progamer such that he is a full notch above all the rest. He can fall far behind in a game and still win, that's something that is very difficult to do, especially at the korean progamer level!

Jaedong vs. Lomo Game 3

If you don't believe me see this game.

lol well he and flash have a boxer-yellow relation goin but anyway if you look at the all time records. Starcraft is balanced in the rock-paper-scissors sense.
T beat Z
Z beats P
P beats T

there are always exceptions but the majority of matches support this idea. if you want some examples look at boxer and firebathero they have great records against zerg but their toss records are shaky. much and grr have good records against terran but not zerg, yellow and julyzerg have good records against toss but not terran.

Well if you are going to do a "meta-analysis" you have to include a very large amount of data and still then it is quite tricky to come to a good conclusion.

I actually say that Starcraft is 100% balanced since which race has the advantage, statistically, depends on the map.

 

[Sensei]

Mass Carriers > All known strats known to man

But seriously, Protoss are awesome.

 

[pockyD]

lol well he and flash have a boxer-yellow relation goin but anyway if you look at the all time records. Starcraft is balanced in the rock-paper-scissors sense.
T beat Z
Z beats P
P beats T

there are always exceptions but the majority of matches support this idea. if you want some examples look at boxer and firebathero they have great records against zerg but their toss records are shaky. much and grr have good records against terran but not zerg, yellow and julyzerg have good records against toss but not terran.

yah, just ignore players with the opposite splits (i.e. luxury, bisu, iris)

really, the only race you regularly see one-matchup-wonders with is TvZ, and even so, the best zergs do fine against the best terrans

also, firebathero is definitely the best

 

[Mogwai]

lol well he and flash have a boxer-yellow relation goin but anyway if you look at the all time records. Starcraft is balanced in the rock-paper-scissors sense.
T beat Z
Z beats P
P beats T

there are always exceptions but the majority of matches support this idea. if you want some examples look at boxer and firebathero they have great records against zerg but their toss records are shaky. much and grr have good records against terran but not zerg, yellow and julyzerg have good records against toss but not terran.

I loled because I think of the exact opposite in your rock paper scissors analysis.

Z beats T
P beats Z
T beats P

I seriously think it's all preference.

It's about the player's comfort zone, I like muta harassing and finding holes in the terran defense, which makes me like the ZvT matchup, whereas when I used to play terran, I could never manage mnm well enough to fight zerg.

Toss give me trouble as zerg because if they hold off my harass, I have trouble manufacturing offense vs. a toss player who manages to stay even with me on econ.

Terran factory army ***** standard toss army sideways and whenever I watch pro matches, it seems that Toss needs to be the one thinking outside the box to get something going while the terran just needs to play solidly and get to the game to the point where they can make a reasonable push.

Mass Carriers > All known strats known to man

But seriously, Protoss are awesome.

Sensei is the most fun to play against because I always get to throw 200 supply worth of ultras, zerglings, hydras and mutas at his meager defenses.

EDIT: Let me give you a ride to my bus (****)

 

[Gosu_Engineer]

also, firebathero is definitely the best

well maybe in terms of dancing and celebrating, he has all other progamers beat.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

All this is cute but really, map determines the advantage.

And Jaedong is the best currently, I think.
Bisu is my favorite player, his style and strateges are so far fetched, weak, flimbsy things...I guess I just have a thing for really really lame tactics, strategies, and players.

 

[Sensei]

Sensei is the most fun to play against because I always get to throw 200 supply worth of ultras, zerglings, hydras and mutas at his meager defenses.

EDIT: Let me give you a ride to my bus (****)

LOL, I'm definitely a noob but I still **** the balls off you in a 2v1 zealot rush lol.

 

[unknownPresence]

mogwai you didnt say zerg beats terran did you, this is something i beleive is totally wrong and im pretty flexible about most things, but terran is definately superior to zerg.

Also that list i gave is from starcraft.org it was a post in late 07 that showed the record of races in starleague.

And when it comes to map also determining a match, i agree and disagree. I believe its the starting points on a map like zerg at 12 will **** any1 at the 3 o clock i think, well not **** have an advantage.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

Imbalance is dependent on map, I think that's the most concise conclusion.

Alphican and I played a couple games today, but I can't say what the results were since they were practice games, which makes them confidential.

But I can update my Shield Slap build order. You see, when I posted the strategy here I was extremely rusty and hadn't done it for months. Now that I've done it I can be a little more specific...

8 Pylon
13 Nexus
14 Gateway
15/16 Pylon

And currently I'm debating whether I should get a second gateway or not. If I do it seems a perfectly timed vulture attack will prove troublesome, otherwise it should be fine. On the other hand if I only go with one gateway I'll have to make sure I time the other gates properly to be able to defend against a two factory.

Anyways...
1 or 2 Gateways
2~3 Zealots, Forge, 1 Cannon
Tech Dragoons / +1-3 Gateways

Dark Templars are Optional, I recommend them from time to time to stir things up...especially if you expect or scout two factories from your opponent.

And one other strategy, this time we'll go with how about...PvZ!
Here is the last PvZ strategy I personally got into. I really don't like to fast expand but I kept getting tired of the old "every here and there you will simply be out macroed" scenario. I came up with a fast expansion strategy which I would like.

I won't describe a build since fast expansion branches out into countless variations. Personally I just keep pumping probes, that's not best but I find it to work better than otherwise since I don't have enough experience with the fast expansion to time my production perfectly.

so...
"Fast Expand"
Gas
Cybernetics Core
Gas
Stargate
Robotics Facility
Robotics Facility

...and build upon that. Keep a corsair pump going, +1 air attack optional, and get shuttles and reavers. I upgrade speed first, then reaver damage. Not sure which is more important, I like the speed. I usually move out when I have 6 reavers, which is pretty fast. Meanwhile I'll try to set up a third base with reavers and cannons. Later in the game if you wish you can switch into regular ground or carriers. D-Web is ideal, but not required to do good, especially not at first.

My experience with this strategy has involved one or two bad defeats when I first tried it since I had no idea what I was doing, and since then I have only lost when I didn't defend my front with reavers while I was attacking. Against a good zerg this will be a struggle but should be a fun one. If your opponent isn't very good it should be a pretty straight forward win. I recommend at least 80 apm before trying this strategy since that's about how much it will take for you to keep up your macro and do the most basic drops, that is unless you want to push yourself to play faster.

 

[Mogwai]

mogwai you didnt say zerg beats terran did you, this is something i beleive is totally wrong and im pretty flexible about most things, but terran is definately superior to zerg.

Oh yes, I absolutely must have spoken out of order. What in the world could have ever been thinking when I said that my opinion of ZvT is that Zerg wins..?

Flash vs. Jaedong 1
Flash vs. Jaedong 2
Flash vs. Jaedong 3

See what I did there? I completely ignored the fact that ~ a month earlier, Jaedong got 3-0ed by ForGG in such a way as to make it look like there's some clearly right answer about who has the advantage. Please don't talk down at me like I don't know what I'm talking about, I was simply talking about my preferences in matchups vs. the ones that you posted like they were facts. The whole reason that Starcraft is an interesting game is that it is very very close to perfectly balanced and going into any given match, no player is at an innately huge advantage due to the matchup. Sure, everyone will have their preferences, but the tournament results in Starcraft are far from conclusive about any matchups being more than slightly off balance, so please do us all a favor and get off your high horse.

 

[pockyD]

the dong is strong

but really, it's not like zerg hasn't been strong in the past either (if for some reason you think that zerg is only 'good' since jaedong is a far better pure player than anyone else). every race has won a fair share of starleagues

starcraft is too good

 

[Pakman]

I think I need to get beat by pocky soon. I am tired of being god awful and need a swift *** whooping to get into gear.

 

[pockyD]

wes has come close to beating me the last few times we played (well, not really actually ending the game, but he definitely gets the upper hand at some point)

he just kind of runs out of steam though

 

[NES n00b]

I would love to play against somebody at some point in here. Hopefully little lag.....cause i have gotten lag FROM HAMACHI just playing someone in starkville. which is lame lol.

 

[Mogwai]

wes has come close to beating me the last few times we played (well, not really actually ending the game, but he definitely gets the upper hand at some point)

he just kind of runs out of steam though

yea, sigh... watching some gomtv zerg stuff right now to try to figure out how I can get better map control, since I'm fairly sure that that's where I'm falling apart right now.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

I'd like to play some of you guys sometimes.
Add s]H-Galaxy@USWest (yes it's a fastest clan, no I'm not only nor primarily a fastest player).

I get kind of lonely...

 

[pockyD]

we play on hamachi

bnet is too annoying

 

[NES n00b]

we play on hamachi

bnet is too annoying

Which is why I would need a network to joinz. Lag is for teh wimps.

PS. I am not that good at this game, but I would love to play better people from time to time.

 

[pockyD]

i don't want to put the information out there since hamachi has limited slots that seem to be eternally reserved, even if you're not there (unless the network owner boots you) and i don't want it randomly filling up

we play from
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=49443

or AIM

 

[CodeBlack]

Check this out. Interesting, right? I wonder how much practice that takes.

 

[Alphicans]

B.net johns -_-. Get Chaos launcher then we can play with 0 lagg.

 

[pockyD]

hamachi also has negligible lag