Starcraft Discussion

[pockyD]

a scout does fine against a small group of marines. if they have more than 4 or 5, then they're doing some janky build order already where the fact that you built a scout allowed you to see it, and you're better off than you would otherwise be the victim of a surprise early push

turrets don't stop the scout; if they're protecting everything with turrets, that's like building 8 or so, in which case your scout wasn't a waste of resources if it forced that. Not only that, but they are also largely contained because of a single unit. you can't move out with a small group of tanks/vultures if by the time you get to their base, a tank and a half will be dead

 

[Alphicans]

Are you actually debating that building a scout isn't a crazy idea? With what you said, there are so many loop holes.

First of all, it's not like my barracks does not work anymore, I can still build marines out of it. Secondly, if I build just 2 turrets, which a terran will do automatically (unless they are noob) the scout is pretty useless. What is it gonna do? Attack my factories? If I haven't rushed yet, I am not going to attack untill I have a lot of units, so even if I don't have goliaths by the time I attack, 1 scout won't reduce the effectiveness of my push by a significant margin for it to matter. If I do go for a fast armory, for fast upgrades, then the scout is COMPLETELY useless.

And if you're gonna say "build more scouts" then I will stop listening to you, because scouts are expensive, die easily to goliaths and turrets, and leaves protoss open for SERIOUS vulture harassment.

 

[pockyD]

i have a feeling this is going the way of "i'm right because i'm right", since it sounds like you're just getting indignant ("if you seriously think that" and "are you actually debating that" and especially "I will stop listening to you" are generally components of a non-argument)

simply put, if the terran tries to make do with just two turrets, you have an ultrainexpensive contain. Like I said, they can't move out with tanks because they'll get picked off. They certainly can't expand, and they will have a hard time dropping buildings that aren't under cover

If you send marines at a scout one at a time, they will get mowed down with ease. fighting off a scout with marines takes a group, not a slow stream

if the terran rushes to goliaths, then that's a win; there's a reason the fast armory build took 9 years to become even semi-popular, and even now, it's not overly effective. rushing the armory leaves you light on units (ESPECIALLY tanks), and also restricts your ability to expand

are you a zerg player? it really doesn't sound like you understand the early half of a PvT game at all

 

[Alphicans]

I am a terran player.

Why couldn't terran expand? lift, and land, build a turret. 1 scout barely kills 1 scv in the time it takes to build a turret. 2 scv's 1 turret.

Ultra inexpensive contain? 2 turrets is 150 minerals. opposed to the 275/125 cost. Not only does it cost an obscene amount, you have to build a stargate on top of that. Stargate or nexus? ****ty contain or better economy? It's just illogical.

Have trouble landing buildings? Uhh, I am pretty sure buildings have a lot of health. I certainly would not mind if a scout took off 100 damage on a building.

I have vsed scouts on several occasions, don't misunderstand me for someone who does not know "the power of scouts." The most effective thing they can do, is harass (If there are no marines), stop a rush, and scout a base. I don't see how a scout can stop me from expanding.

 

[pockyD]

I am a terran player.

Why couldn't terran expand? lift, and land, build a turret. 1 scout barely kills 1 scv in the time it takes to build a turret. 2 scv's 1 turret.

i didn't realize that the protoss wasn't going to build any other units

luckily, you seem to have 3 turrets in your main, 2 turrets at your natural, a group of marines, a few tanks, and goliath tech on the way while protoss just has one scout

Ultra inexpensive contain? 2 turrets is 150 minerals. opposed to the 275/125 cost. Not only does it cost an obscene amount, you have to build a stargate on top of that. Stargate or nexus? ****ty contain or better economy? It's just illogical.

I don't see how turrets break a contain. if you are pulling multiple scv to "turret push" to get out of your base, then i'd say you're letting the harass get to you. otherwise, you're really confusing me as far as what you mean here.

how is it a choice stargate vs. nexus? it's really more of a choice of stargate vs robofac vs citadel/templar. are you going to laugh at someone that got a reaver because they could've just had a nexus instead?

Since you say you're a terran player, I guess I can forgive you for not understanding the basis behind the single corsair vs. zerg, but really, it serves much the same purpose

Have trouble landing buildings? Uhh, I am pretty sure buildings have a lot of health. I certainly would not mind if a scout took off 100 damage on a building.

I guess we've forgotten all about the scv that has to waddle around constructing it?

I have vsed scouts on several occasions, don't misunderstand me for someone who does not know "the power of scouts."

I'm not interpreting anything about you except someone who is close-minded and seems to think they know all ("I am correct" is not an argument). Maybe you do; you might even be right about this, but you're certainly not being very persuasive about it

The most effective thing they can do, is harass (If there are no marines), stop a rush, and scout a base. I don't see how a scout can stop me from expanding.

being able to harass, stop a rush, and scout a base is pretty useful, is it not? What do you think the goal of a robofac build is?

scout just does the same thing faster and less effectively. it's a tradeoff that often isn't worth it, but once again, is viable simply because how much it can mess with their timing

 

[Alphicans]

I never said that you would auto get golaiths, it was just a suggestion, which could very well be used. I would have 2 turrets at my main, and 1 turret at my expo. I'd have 1 tank, MAYBE two. You said that you don't see how turrets break a contain, but I don't see how a scout is a contain in the first place. Early game, there is no such thing as containing a terran; terran usually just sits there unless they are going to expand again slightly early, or until around the 120 psi mark.

Allow me to simulate a game.

Terran:

9 depot
10 rax
12 refinery
16-18 fac
shop
tank
start siege upgrade
start command centre at around 26

Protoss (not I am not exact on the build orders, but I know the general psi counts)

8
10-11 gate?
12 assimilator
14 cybernetics core
18 stargate? maybe 20 not sure about this

Unit counts:

Terran

3 marines
1-2 tanks
x scvs

Protoss

1-2 goons
1 scout
x probes

Times:

Terran

3rd marine at around the 4 minute mark
first tank at around 4:15
Engineer bay finishes at around 4:50-5
Command centre finishes at around 5:30

Protoss

second dragoon at around the 4:10 mark
scout starts at 4:15
scout finishes at 4:50-5

Of course things can be varied, like toss not getting a second dragoon. Also scouting plays a huge role, if terran sees a stargate, then it's gg anyways. With my little simulation turrets will pop up shortly after the scout shows up. The command centre won't have that much time left to build, so killing the scv will slow down the expo, but not to the extent where it makes a game altering difference. I am assuming the point of the scout is to gain an upper hand, correct? I am not saying you cannot with a scout, but it's so difficult, and the terran would have to be doing either a very weird build, or just screws up.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

When it comes to unorthodox strategies I'm one of the experienced. I've watched thousands and thousands of replays and every weird strategy I've seen I've picked up on. I've also created many strategies myself that have worked out very well for me. I've trained people in starcraft for a few years, so if anyone wants training I can definitely do that sometimes.

About scouts. Yes I have played with scouts in PvT in many different ways. The original idea of the scout was to rush a scout with the intention of following up with a dark templar rush. I typically find that a good follow-up after this might be a hallucinated army rush or just try to play standard. Another possibility is to rush a scout and...well...just rush a scout and move on in life. This slows a player down. Standard terran gets 3-6 marines, more than enough to deal with the scout. On the other side the scout slows down the protoss considerably. One could expand instead of getting a scout, or get a shuttle and reaver which is far more threatening.

To me it seems the most natural and effective follow up of a scout rush is to simply expand and go for a 2 base economy 2 stargate carrier rush. This is a weaker than the version without the scout, but it follows relatively naturally after the scout. One problem with this strategy is that the carriers are more easily expected.

So it is VIABLE to do a scout rush, you CAN DO THIS, however that doesn't mean it's good. It will slow you down. There are only two scenarios I can think of where a scout might benefit you. One is if terran tries to drop you and you pick off their dropship before it drops its units successfully. The other time it will help you is if your opponent is doing something sneaky and you have time to counter it. Of course observers would probably still be a better option.

The one other thing a scout can do is throw an opponent off, but this usually only works on weaker opponents.

Playable? Sure. Good? Doubtful.

Hi.TribunaL@USWest
s]H-Tribunal@USWest
MasteR[vG]@USWest

 

[unknownPresence]

..............................................
scv rush ***** scout build, I mean seriously i love this discussion page, but everytime i read your arguements it goes this unit is good, no its bad, then 50 situations on why its good or bad. I think we can all agree that starcraft is a situational game and yes in particular situations units are bad, but then again thats one situation.

And Ace Im not on much so idk about training, but if we ever get the chance I would love to play you.

 

[Gosu_Engineer]

Even if you are agreeing with me in the long run, please do not bring up games like these. Of course scouts can win, but people can win if they start with 3 probes instead of 4. When you bring up something like this, all it does is give people reason to argue stupid points.

Harsh...I get yelled at for agreeing with someone...

 

[SloT]

scouts are monsters air-to-air

But you can get 1 scout for 100$ and 25 goons or sairs for a nickel
obviously, thats exagerated, but my point remains valid. Freaking scouts cost a rediculous amount of money, and you can get 2 goons or 2 sairs for the same kind of anti air straight up damage. except sairs do splash damage, which is awesome... and they are faster.... and attack faster ... but anyways im back, i just moved up to Seattle... ALP MUST F A ME OR I WILL JUMP OFF IMAGINARY CLIFF
Polish Sausage.

 

[Alphicans]

Uhh, I kind of quit Starcraft, I only play theorycraft on smashboards now.

 

[unknownPresence]

Uhh, I kind of quit Starcraft, I only play theorycraft on smashboards now.

theory starcraft? you dont seem to have much theory, its pretty apparent what you believe.

 

[Gosu_Engineer]

theory starcraft? you dont seem to have much theory, its pretty apparent what you believe.

That's uncalled for, and rather rude I must say

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

unknownPresence: Very good. Every unit has a situation which it can serve especially well in, and scouts are no exception. Scouts are very situational and if people get them arbitrarily chances ae it won't be a worthwhile investment.

Alphican is a pretty experienced player.

My MSN is ace11223399@hotmail.com. You can message me sometime if you ever want to play since I'm not very active at the moment either.

 

[Alphicans]

theory starcraft? you dont seem to have much theory, its pretty apparent what you believe.

Are you insulting me, or just saying that there is no theory when I talk, just absolute ends. I guess my talk doesn't come across as theoretical, I guess I just like to debate starcraft. I dunno, the fact is is that I don't play much starcraft, but I like discussing it.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

I would describe myself as a strategist and innovater but also a strategical realist. There are advantages and disadvantages to various strategies, sometimes it depends on map. All in all there are many variables, there is no single value attached to a strategy. I know how most of the strategies work from watching thousands of replays and playing thousands of games. I've also created many strategies, some I am very fond of such as the SHIELD SLAP in PvT.

 

[Alphicans]

I would describe you as a lame piece of shiiit.

EDIT: We're friends, no biggie

 

[Cynan Machae]

I have to agree with Alphican and Ace(WorhsipMe) here. Scout really arent not worth it in PvT. The Stove may have worked a few years back when Terran didnt make a single marine, but nowadays most terran do at least 3 and sometimes more. And rushing scout leave you very vulnerable for some early push.

As to comparing a scout to an corsair in PvZ, well, the corsair can actually do something other than scout (killing 1-2 ovies), is quite less expensive, and help you expo if you are going for DT for defense by keeping overlord away until he has speed. Scouts, well. They probably can kill an scv in a minute. And that's if the Terran is stupid and letting you do it. If you want to socut with a scout, aren't you better of with observers?

And really, I don't think any Terran would care about a "contain" because of a scout. The P would already be delayed and the T would jsut be free to expo again and macro. And any terran that doesnt make turrets in TvP is asking for trouble.

And that game where the guy jsut mass scout doesnt mean anything except that the guy is way better than the other. I can mass scout also vs some friends. Doesnt mean scouts are good.

Scouts are VERY situationals, but they certainly arent for a standard build.

And I support your sig SloT .

Edit: Shield Slap?

 

[Kyari]

the stove has always been a joke

how come no-one wants to play me

 

[pockyD]

this is pretty much a jumbled mass of thoughts...

scouts hit so much harder against any air unit that has armor (read: battlecruisers) than corsairs that it's not even close to being comparable

in fact, i wouldn't be surprised if per supply cost, scouts are the best air-to-air unit in the game, except for maybe perfect yamato-cloning BCs

obviously this was theory anyway, right? what idiot protoss let their terran opponent mass up BCs to begin with?

of COURSE other builds are inherently stronger than leading with a scout. there's a reason "standard" builds are standard: they are the best, most efficient, whatever. the reason that more off-the-wall strategies see any play at all are simply because they aim to take advantage of the predictability of standard play

if it's "viable" though not optimal (which i'm pretty sure i conceded it wasn't optimal in my first post), then that's all that matters; it deserves consideration. it's not like you're trying to optic flare observers then snipe a protoss army with wraiths

doing a BBS rush certainly isn't "optimal" either, but it works enough that people will still try it from time to time,and more importantly, opponents fear it

i don't think you seem to understand the difference it makes to a protoss knowing exactly what the state of a terran's production buildings is, concerning how fearful he has to be of a push

corsair vs zerg and scout vs terran serve the same purpose; slow down your opponent and get information for yourself. is one more effective than the other? sure! did i say the scout was as strong as a corsair?

either you're just trying to straw man me, or you're not bothering to read what i'm saying because you're clouded by 'OMG THIS GUY THINKS SCOUTS ARE GOOD??'

 

[Alphicans]

Well you kinda went from one point to another, in two extremely long posts. The reason I was disagreeing with you is because all your arguments were a mess. You didn't take into account a lot of things.

For instance. You said something like: Would you laugh at someone for going shuttles and reavers? Well no I would not, because shuttle and reavers work better at doing what the scout is trying to do, and if the shuttle and reaver survive, they can be used later in the game to do many things.

You also said that a scout can slow down terran. Wtf? Are you not taking into account that the scout will slow down protoss a considerable amount as well?

The first thing you said is that a scout can handle a group of 3 marines easily. Then when I suggested building marines from a barracks, you said a scout could kill 1 marine at a time easily. Well if I had 3 marines in the first place, and built 2 more, that makes 5 marines doesn it not? I don't see what you were arguing.

This is why this discussion went on for so long. Your arguments did not follow any order.

EDIT: Disregard the first sentence, I accidentally thought you were Cyanmachine, PockyD.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

this is pretty much a jumbled mass of thoughts...

scouts hit so much harder against any air unit that has armor (read: battlecruisers) than corsairs that it's not even close to being comparable

Well it always depends on the matchup. In a PvT if terran gets battlecruisers then dragoons and templars will be fine. In a PvZ against devours you use maelstorm, storm, corsairs, etc...definitely not scouts. In PvZ you can try to rush a scout to destroy overlords early in the game but only if you know what you are doing. In PvP there is virtually no use for the scout, not even against carriers.

in fact, i wouldn't be surprised if per supply cost, scouts are the best air-to-air unit in the game, except for maybe perfect yamato-cloning BCs

This statement is far too unspecific to be analyzed.

obviously this was theory anyway, right? what idiot protoss let their terran opponent mass up BCs to begin with?

It's easy to mass battlecruisers in a TvP, but you'll probably be very far behind.

of COURSE other builds are inherently stronger than leading with a scout. there's a reason "standard" builds are standard: they are the best, most efficient, whatever. the reason that more off-the-wall strategies see any play at all are simply because they aim to take advantage of the predictability of standard play

Taking advantage of the "predictability" of standard builds is NOT something one can do with an arbitrary choice of strategy. Just because something is unexpected does not mean it is good. Just because something isn't standard doesn't mean it isn't good. If you want to come up with a strategy to surprise your opponent you have to understand very well the game and really come up with something. Most things have been done in one form or another but haven't been touched for years, call them gems if you will. I have seen many interesting strategies and made quite a few strategies to catch opponents off guard. Unfortunately the scout rush against PvT has never been a very strong one but a rather weak one. Almost any terran will see it as a pleasant surprise.

if it's "viable" though not optimal (which i'm pretty sure i conceded it wasn't optimal in my first post), then that's all that matters; it deserves consideration. it's not like you're trying to optic flare observers then snipe a protoss army with wraiths

Well yes this seems to be what we are discussing, we are considering it and I've explained what I think of it. One word --- Dubious.

doing a BBS rush certainly isn't "optimal" either, but it works enough that people will still try it from time to time,and more importantly, opponents fear it

I'm sure I've seen and know of BBS rushes but I'm not sure what BBS means.

i don't think you seem to understand the difference it makes to a protoss knowing exactly what the state of a terran's production buildings is, concerning how fearful he has to be of a push

-_- I do understand. If you are implying that scouts are good because they do this then I have to disagree with your choice. An early reaver drop and/or observers do the same job only better than a scout.

corsair vs zerg and scout vs terran serve the same purpose; slow down your opponent and get information for yourself. is one more effective than the other? sure! did i say the scout was as strong as a corsair?

A scout slows you down more than terran and your information comes barely sooner than it would if you get an observer or a reaver, only with the latter options you would be safer anyways.

either you're just trying to straw man me, or you're not bothering to read what i'm saying because you're clouded by 'OMG THIS GUY THINKS SCOUTS ARE GOOD??'

As a word of advice saying who you are responding to often makes things more simple.

 

[Alphicans]

I think I am gonna start playing SC again soon. Who wants to get completely obliterated?

 

[Gosu_Engineer]

I think I am gonna start playing SC again soon. Who wants to get completely obliterated?

maybe in the future... I got obliterated last week...

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

Alphican I challenge you to a best out of 5. Last time it was all TvT but this time I have a new promise...
First I propose the format, first game will take place on python, then the loser of the previous game decides an ICCUP map for the next game. Now for my promises...

1. I'll 3-0, of course.
2. I'm going to use each race once, one ZvT, one TvT, and last but certainly not least, one PvT.

I'm going for the perfect sweep!


I often post one strategy in starcraft topics each day. Since I'm short on time I'm going to post an easy and short strategy for today. All my strategies I post are usually offbeat ones, because those are fun!

This one is for PvT!
It's called...the SHIELD SLAP! This was the very last PvT strategy I created and it proved not only powerful but very very fun to play.

8 Pylon
13 Nexus
Gateway/Gateway
Pylon
Zealot
Get a few zealots or so and a forge for one cannon and tech to dragoons. Get a third gateway and a robotics some day and that's about it!

It sounds lame but most people fail to realize that fast expansion strategies in PvT hurt the protoss economy so much that they are barely stronger than no fast expansion, often even weaker. This version of the fast expansion ensures that your economy is far far more healthy since it involves no probe cuts but provides enough defense to stop all but the very most perfect pushes (in testing). Chances that you will lose from an early game push are maybe 1/10 against your average public korean, but chances you'll lose after the early push or against no early push are practically zero. After early game you get to crush your opponent one way or another and not have to try to make it work, which is why this is so fun. Try it out!

How to beat it: There is honestly only ONE WAY I know of on how to beat this build. There is a very specific 2 factory push that involves dual shops and getting speed and mines for your vultures but also tanks and later siege upgrades. If you execute this push with precision then the protoss will probably lose unless they have a trick up their sleeves, such as DTs. Also I think dual factory one shop vulture/tank siege push might also work.

How to improve it: Rush DTs! DTs are the perfect defense for the fast expansion, and since you've already earned great defense, this should diminish the terran's chances of winning almost to zero. Reavers are another option that I haven't considered so I don't know how they would mix in.

 

[unknownPresence]

if you guys havent already played, give a date i would like to watch this, and maybe play then. Also you guys make it hard for people to catch up on this thread with paragraph posts, cant you keep it simple and short (dont comment on this i know the answer, just a point i would like to mak since Im lazy).

 

[M@v]

First of all, the only consistent match up you use carriers is PvT, since in PvP storms and goons take them out easily with half the cost, and just as much mobility. In PvZ, storms are way more effective, so carriers aren't that viable. In PvT, gols don't **** carriers, wraiths kind of do, but are easily taken care of, valkys don't do anything vs carriers. I don't see what you're arguing, TBH it just doesn't seem like you know enough about the game to argue. I am sorry if that's offensive but with what you said, I can end up at that conclusion.

ok let me rephrase. Thats my strategy for team battles. 1v1:

PvT: Quick goons, then obs. mass a bit, then get templars. Zeals with shuttles work decent against tanks. Game lasts long enough go carriers


PvZ: Zeals, Templars, Archons. Corsairs to screw their ovies. obs as always. Dont let it drag on, lings/ultras **** toss.

I always have problems with pvt, but im good pvz

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

I'm a little confused, Alphicans made a very sensible post against Mav and Mav makes a very sensible reply. Misunderstanding?

Anyways, yes Alphican is right that goliaths don't **** carriers, but it depends on one's definition of ****. In general that is true though, it's often a close battle and it depends on how many goliaths terran has.

Mav: You're basically right although the real story is far far far more complex than that and involves many variations and pressures. There are many ways one can go about these things.

Another strategy! Since we are talking about carriers a little this one is devoted to carriers...

PvT Carrier Rush
1-2 Gate Dragoons and Expand relatively fast.
+2 Stargate
Fleet Beacon
+2 Gateways

So what you do is first start your dual carriers. After that just keep a 4gate pump going and get speed if you can, robotics facility is also possible and if you wish you can get a reaver. Once you have 4 carriers attack. If concealed and if terran does not get goliaths then this will probably be an instant win and you can just pick off terran's tanks. Otherwise it'll range from a struggle to a significant uphill battle if terran is fully prepared.

This strategy is not solid but it is not INFERIOR to many of the modern strategies. If done right this is a perfectly reasonable strategy and once again, it is not inferior to modern strategies if used correctly.

 

[Alphicans]

if you guys havent already played, give a date i would like to watch this, and maybe play then. Also you guys make it hard for people to catch up on this thread with paragraph posts, cant you keep it simple and short (dont comment on this i know the answer, just a point i would like to mak since Im lazy).

We'll tell you when this is going down. I'll need some practice first.

 

[pockyD]

obviously 2base carriers is neither a widely known strategy nor a commonly used one

 

[Gosu_Engineer]

I remember going against this build a long time ago...like 2005 long time ago...although the people I played usually did not get the extra gates

 

[Cynan Machae]

obviously 2base carriers is neither a widely known strategy nor a commonly used one

Well, while it's not that common, it's been used often enough especially on maps like Katrina where it was the standard PvT build. A reaver drop was also thrown down before the carriers.

And yea, I'd also like to know when the match will be played, interested in obsing.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

obviously 2base carriers is neither a widely known strategy nor a commonly used one

That's the point, not the same boring strategy but a new and fun one that is also good at winning if done right.

I remember going against this build a long time ago...like 2005 long time ago...although the people I played usually did not get the extra gates

It might depend on the map and timings but as your economy comes to settle you should be able to run a 4gate along side carrier production. Your friends were probably doing it fine though.

Well, while it's not that common, it's been used often enough especially on maps like Katrina where it was the standard PvT build. A reaver drop was also thrown down before the carriers.

And yea, I'd also like to know when the match will be played, interested in obsing.

Yes it's a very strong strategy on Katrina, on python it is objectivly an okay strategy but against common public koreans you should be pretty successful with it, I'd say maybe 67% to 75% wins if you do it very well.

We'll have a date posted by Friday, we'll probably have our match sometime this weekend.

I'm really busy today so I might not get to post a new strategy. If anyone wants me to post a specific strategy for a specific matchup, whether they want it to be a rush or what, just let me know I'm sure I'll have several in mind.


Also I'm planning on playing sMi.KawaiiRice in a bo3 match, the odds are against me but I can't wait. All I need are two things, time and a little bit of practice to get my builds and macro into shape. I'm feeling pretty good about this one.

 

[Gosu_Engineer]

It might depend on the map and timings but as your economy comes to settle you should be able to run a 4gate along side carrier production. Your friends were probably doing it fine though.

just for specifics sake it was on older maps like Luna, Gaia, Rush hour III, one guy tried to do it on paranoid android, etc... I'm sure they did...it's just that in each instance I was able to scout it early and prepare accordingly...

mostly through drops and harass on the mineral lines; infantry, vults with mines, tanks, or some combination thereof. One time I was sneaky and was able to nuke rush...to this day my friend who I did it too still yells at me for it...

and it went about half and half...if my drops weren't successful in delaying the economy I was toast...if they did their job I got far enough in the lead to win

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

The carrier rush, if revealed, becomes extremely vulnerable. Not auto-lose, but definitely an uphill battle. Luckily it isn't all that hard to hide if you prepare to hide it before hand.

Go drop terran! That's one thing I've barely touched upon. I only know the vulture drop, and that's pretty much the most solid terran drop strategy against protoss that I knw of. There are two variations, 1fac and2fac, 2fac with vulture drop is great against fast expansions, otherwise going for the expo asap gives you a very solid game. I've played against mid-game and late-game drops, those games are pretty annoying but I usually win them, probably about 9/10 of them.

 

[Gosu_Engineer]

yeah fun times...one time a friend tried it on LT...I just dropped his cliff with tanks to stop the econ

but yeah if I hadn't scouted like I did I would not have done nearly as well

 

[pockyD]

That's the point, not the same boring strategy but a new and fun one that is also good at winning if done right.

that build order was ambiguous enough that it could easily be seen as the same build the rock has been doing since the dawn of time

 

[Mogwai]

wow, a starcraft thread.[/subscribes]

 

[Pakman]

Crafting tonight on hamachi!

 

[Mogwai]

Crafting tonight on hamachi!

Let me give you a ride to my bus...