Starcraft Discussion

[Mogwai]

If you haven't seen Jaedong vs. Fantasy (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10749_fantasy_vs_Jaedong/vod) or Jaedong vs. SkyHigh (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10840_Jaedong_vs_sKyHigh/vod) yet, you should. <3 Jaedong.

 

[Alphicans]

Omfg! I want an FBH sig

 

[Mogwai]

Omfg! I want an FBH sig

lol, isn't it awesome?

if you give me a youtube link of a game where he does some ridiculous shit after winning, I would be happy to make you some FBH gifs.

 

[Alphicans]

Nah it's fine lol. You can be the man with the FBH sig.

 

[unknownPresence]

mogwai, those sigs are on par with the wombo combo.....maybe bttr

 

[Alphicans]

So much better than the wombo combo.

 

[Taeran]

lol, I was about to make a thread when I saw this. I play Zerg.

 

[unknownPresence]

hmm all right alpha but only bc ive seen the wombo combo too many times.

taeran zerg eh, i play zerg, but my macro has been slipping and thats probably the most important thing with zerg.

 

[Alphicans]

It's true. Zerg is the most inefficient race of the three, so to make up for it, large armies are easy to acquire, therefore making macro supremely important. One large group of rines coupled with 3 science vessels can take on a fairly large zerg army. In early game, zerg should be happy to kill like 5 rines while losing 2 lurkers and a group of lings. It's just how it works.

 

[peeup]

My main game is warcraft III, so the very earlygame of a starcraft match confuses me. Do you want to make units ASAP, or focus on economy by getting lots of drones/probes/SCVs? In WC3 I would pretty much build a barracks/alter right off the bat, but that doesn't seem to work as well in SC b/c in warcraft the best number of workers to have at a mine is 5, but in SC 5 is a tiny amount.

 

[Alphicans]

The rule of the thumb is never to stop making workers, until like late game.

 

[Mogwai]

The rule of the thumb is never to stop making workers, until like late game.

well, unless you're Zerg. larvae make it a lot more complicated.

 

[Alphicans]

Oh yeah, I forgot he was zerg. :\

 

[Mogwai]

As zerg it's like, really annoying and complicated. The standard openings are like, build your spawning pool on 9 drones vs. other zerg and build your 2nd hatch at your natural on 12 drones followed by your spawning pool on 11 vs. Toss and Terran, but that's vastly oversimplifying it. You have to react to scouting what your opponent is doing to decide whether to crank drones or other units. In the like 6 months that I've been learning competitive starcraft knowing when to build more drones and hatcheries has been my biggest macro downfall and it's really absurdly important to stepping up your zerg play.

 

[Alphicans]

He's right. I've seen zergs have like very little drones some games, and a horde of drones other games. I think zerg, overall, is the most dependent on the other race for what build they do, which is why they have expendable units for scouting, and an overlord to scout with at the start. So really, scouting is the most important for zerg, for both macro decisions and tech decisions. I play terran, so scouting isn't as huge of a deal, although it's needed, usually zerg or protoss is at the will of the terran when it comes to builds, and attacks.

 

[pockyD]

zergs are hard

 

[Alphicans]

Maybe, but the thing about zerg is that micro isn't as important. Muta micro is really only vs terran and in specific scenarios vs toss, and it only lasts for like 2-3 minutes of the game. Macro isn't that hard either, because larvae take time to re spawn. Zergs are only hard in the fact that they need constant intelligence, or else they will get ****ed over by unit counters.

 

[pockyD]

um, PROTOSS micro isn't important

zerg micro isn't quite terran's, but they are both light years ahead of what's required of protoss

 

[Mogwai]

um, PROTOSS micro isn't important

zerg micro isn't quite terran's, but they are both light years ahead of what's required of protoss

Yep.

Also, wtf, muta micro is also obscenely important in ZvZ too, if you can't snipe scourges, you will get run over by a decent zerg player. And defiler control, lurker burrowing and timing your surrounds and whatnot all together is very difficult.

 

[Alphicans]

Protoss requires an intense amount of precision when it comes to micro. ZvZ is a short m/u, so the micro only lasts like 10 minutes anyways. Protoss requires reaver snipes, perfect storms, timed flanks, good stasis, good recall, zlot bombing etc. Zerg has like what? Lurker burrows, and some dark swarm. Even in late game tvz zerg switches to ultras so from there it's like 1a2a3a4a 5swarm and that's it. At least through out protoss game, there are more than swarm, there is carrier micro, arbiter control, storms. ZvP, zerg might have a harder time microing, just because avoiding storms is hard, but depending on what build, protoss needs good shuttle/reaver control, along with good storms and mael(wtf is it called) storms with DA's, and knowing when to pull back archons.

 

[pockyD]

*maelstrom

more different types of things to do does NOT mean harder micro, especially when you are referencing things like "carrier micro"

the simple crap like getting a good surround/flank/spread, which can be 1a2a3clicka as protoss, is many times harder (and more essential) for a zerg controlling 3x as many units with 1/3 the hp

 

[Alphicans]

Carrier micro is hard. The last thing you want to do is to lose 2 carriers to goliaths, and only killing like 8. What does does hp have to do with anything? If you have 3x the units then hp evens out. And why does 3x the units make it harder? Instead of 1a2a3a it's 1a2a3a4a maybe 5a.

I'd say zerg micro = toss micro <Terran micro. When it comes to decisions I'd say protoss has the hardest times, but when it comes to macro zerg has the hardest time, while terran has it easy in both of those categories.

 

[pockyD]

having 1/3 the hp is harder because there's less of a margin of error, and precision is more important

having 3x as many units is harder because there's simply more units to control

the combination of control being more important while also being more difficult is why zerg micro as a whole is harder than protoss's

as for decision-making, zerg doesn't have as much on-the-fly decision making... because if you made the wrong decision at the start, all your units are already dead

 

[Alphicans]

If you ask any descent SC player, they will all tell you protoss needs the most precision. Even tasteless will agree, and he knows a ****load about this game. Decision making is easy for zerg, because they have more scouting options, especially vs protoss. Zerg will know when protoss expands, how many gates he will have, when the cybernetics core gets up, if protoss is upgrading or not, and when dragoons are in production. Protoss, if he has good scout control, and/or the zerg sucks will at best know when the expansion goes up (no big deal), when the spawning pool gets up, and MAYBE when the lair goes up. After that, corsairs are needed to scout, and if protoss does a risky build it's a lot easier to lose to zerg than it is for zerg to lose to protoss when doing risky stuff, because protoss simply won't see it coming until the units are attacking.

 

[pockyD]

i don't see what just happened; you opened with a remark about precision, but then everything else you say is about "decision-making"

decision-making is not micro

micro is the ability to effectively carry out the decisions already made

sure, sometimes you re-evaluate in the middle, but that hardly falls under micro. If you realize you're getting stormed, your "decision" is to get the hell out of there. Your micro is moving your units in the right direction (and often, multiple directions) to minimize casualties (avoiding collisions with your own other units, away from their army, whatever)

edit: what race do you play?

 

[Mogwai]

$5 says toss

 

[pockyD]

and actually, if you ask any "decent" SC player, 95% of your responses will say protoss is by far the easiest race on a technical level

 

[Alphicans]

I've said in my previous posts. Shows how well you read my posts. Jesus chirst you guys. I started with micro, then I took your point on precision with zerg, and I said protoss has to have better precision. It's not hard to follow, just read it.

I play terran, as I've said last page, and I've told you before because you've asked me. Long term memory loss much?

 

[pockyD]

honestly, you're not memorable to me (this is not meant to be offensive) simply because we've never actually played.

I don't know the main of anyone I've randomly talked to on smashboards that i've never either played or seen videos of, so I don't know why you'd expect this to be any different

You're going to clarify what YOU meant by "precision", because by "precision", I meant precise unit control, whereas you seem to think "precision" means "decisions" (maybe because they sound alike? I don't know, I really have no idea)

And fine, as a terran player, which do you find more micro-intensive; SK Terran (m/m + vessels) or metal/mech/whatever you want to call it (tanks/goliaths/vultures)?

 

[Alphicans]

By precision I mean precise unit movements/actions. A bad storm can cost the game, where as a bad plague or bad darkswarm is more easily saveable. Reaver snipes are pretty hard as well, and stasis need to be precise. Flanks are extremely important, I don't see why you'd say zerg needs better flank positioning because zerg has darkswarm, so it doesn't matter as much, but w.e.

More micro intensive? SK terran by far. More control groups are needed, and marines are so fragile, you gotta have them at the right position always. Plus science vessels need to avoid scourges constantly, plus irridate is needed :\. Mech isn't hard to control, just hard to produce.

 

[pockyD]

More micro intensive? SK terran by far. More control groups are needed, and marines are so fragile, you gotta have them at the right position always. Plus science vessels need to avoid scourges constantly, plus irridate is needed :\.

sounds like zerg

Mech isn't hard to control, just hard to produce.

sounds like protoss

anyways, I wouldn't consider a "bad storm" a bad decision (unless there was no reason to storm to begin with), it would be poor execution... but in reality, a bad storm and a good storm require the exact same amount of actions and "tech skill"; a good storm is predicting the opponents' actions, which to me does NOT fall under the umbrella of micro

and you think there's no difference between a good plague and a bad one? a good lurker setup and a bad one? =\

spellcasters are all a small part of "micro" anyway; the bulk of it is army control, and zerg has that much rougher

 

[Alphicans]

I didn't say a bad storm is a bad decision, it's bad precision...

We should just have 1v1's to settle arguments, because this is dumb. Although 1v1 isn't logical, it gets the other person to stfu >.>

 

[pockyD]

why would you want me to stfu? should we just let this thread die again until we can post about some funny dance that someone did?

I assumed that the thread's title was "starcraft discussion", sorry that I was mistaken as far as its purpose

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah but now it's getting dumb. Plus we should 1v1 anyways because it's fun.

 

[unknownPresence]

.......i missed 2 pages, and from what i have read, this thread appears it will have a drought again :/.

ill just give you my opinion, toss cant lose units early bc the other races have an easier time producing units, so unit management is very important for toss ealry/mid. the buid orders for toss are generally pretty standard, you just have to be aware of counter builds like you always should be, so to me i think toss is the hardest race to use, as far as micro goes that depends on the situation really.

and i agree with alpha, a bad storm can, not will, can cost the game. i forget which match but i saw nada lose a game he supposedl should have won unit wise, but a series of storms won it for him, where as the opposite would have ended in a loss for toss for sure.

 

[Taeran]

hmm all right alpha but only bc ive seen the wombo combo too many times.

taeran zerg eh, i play zerg, but my macro has been slipping and thats probably the most important thing with zerg.

Macro is essential to Zerg.

 

[unknownPresence]

dont mean to be rude, but didnt i just say that?

BISU IN THE FINALS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AltF4]

I just played Dawn of War for a little while... and it made me miss SC. Starcraft is in every way a better game.

 

[unknownPresence]

I just played Dawn of War for a little while... and it made me miss SC. Starcraft is in every way a better game.

warrior knows where its at, i rlly hope sc2 is a game that blows everything away, and even if it doesnt im sure it will eventually just bc blizzard doesnt giv up on games when its released, they make it bttr.

 

[Mogwai]

Macro is essential to Zerg.

BISU IN THE FINALS!!!!!!!!!!!

Now if he could just remember how to beat mediocre Zerg...

I hope JangBi/Free crushes him in the finals. I don't even know why I'm rooting so hard against Bisu, but for some reason I've very compelled to root against the guy.