Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)

[Zone]

cynan you good to play tomorrow?I have no work saturday so i can stay up late. Right now i'm going to bed I got work in 9 hours.

 

[황미영]

Pretty cool to meet someone who is top 200 irl. ;D

 

[M@v]

I feel you need to be at least somewhat serious about this game to make diamond. It took me 3 months to go from plat to diamond(pre-master's peroid fyi). Either you learn or you ride the steed named 4gate, since most people in platinum and below can't deal with a well-executed 4gate.

 

[AltF4]

Oh, yea. I think I've seen a "Dice" in the stream list on Team Liquid. That's pretty cool. Are you on a team yet?


I feel like I've turned a corner with my play. I've started being more aggressive early, or at least feigning aggression early and it's paid off. I've won 11 of my last 13 on ladder and am (as of when I stopped last night) 3rd in my division. I've definitely won a few games where I was behind, and my opponent just didn't attack and win because they were afraid to move out of their base. Good times.

One macro problem I've been having honestly is my computer. It can't handle a game with two maxed armies. It starts running at like 1 fps, and all my actions are delayed by over a second. Maybe I'll throw together a desktop, since I've just been playing on my laptop. But no Johns, XD.

I feel you need to be at least somewhat serious about this game to make diamond. It took me 3 months to go from plat to diamond(pre-master's peroid fyi). Either you learn or you ride the steed named 4gate, since most people in platinum and below can't deal with a well-executed 4gate.

No exaggeration, 90%+ of my Protoss opponents 4gate me. Games rarely end after 10 minutes.

 

[_Dice]

Oh, yea. I think I've seen a "Dice" in the stream list on Team Liquid. That's pretty cool. Are you on a team yet?


I feel like I've turned a corner with my play. I've started being more aggressive early, or at least feigning aggression early and it's paid off. I've won 11 of my last 13 on ladder and am (as of when I stopped last night) 3rd in my division. I've definitely won a few games where I was behind, and my opponent just didn't attack and win because they were afraid to move out of their base. Good times.

One macro problem I've been having honestly is my computer. It can't handle a game with two maxed armies. It starts running at like 1 fps, and all my actions are delayed by over a second. Maybe I'll throw together a desktop, since I've just been playing on my laptop. But no Johns, XD.



No exaggeration, 90%+ of my Protoss opponents 4gate me. Games rarely end after 10 minutes.

You're going to see 4 gate until masters, where you will see 4 gate about 1/3 of your games until mid to upper masters where it will be seen in about 10% of games, unless you play protoss, then it's every PvP pretty much.

yeah that was me on the stream list, i was featured for a while, then unfeatures when chill decided my drunken play wasn't worthy of being features (lol)
no team but i personally know alot of the VT members, so who knows.


the mental limitations of this game being how they are you don' also want a computerized limitation. so getting a better computer will help alot. and agression is definitely a must, with every race you need some sort of agression.

 

[ss118]

I am of the opinion that someone can reach Diamond on basics alone.

I'm curious what you mean by "basics."

*is top bronze player working on getting better at game*

Edit: I should try reading just the previous page sometimes

 

[Cynan Machae]

cynan you good to play tomorrow?I have no work saturday so i can stay up late. Right now i'm going to bed I got work in 9 hours.

I'll be at a smashfest tonight but later when I come back I can play (and since I'm 1 or 2 hours ahead it should work fine)

 

[M@v]

You're going to see 4 gate until masters, where you will see 4 gate about 1/3 of your games until mid to upper masters where it will be seen in about 10% of games, unless you play protoss, then it's every PvP pretty much.

yeah that was me on the stream list, i was featured for a while, then unfeatures when chill decided my drunken play wasn't worthy of being features (lol)
no team but i personally know alot of the VT members, so who knows.


the mental limitations of this game being how they are you don' also want a computerized limitation. so getting a better computer will help alot. and agression is definitely a must, with every race you need some sort of agression.

I almost never see 4gates in my TvPs(High diamond level). I wish I did, because 4gate is usually a pretty easy win for T if you see it coming. The only exception would be a wide ramp so they can runby, or a 15 cc.

 

[_Dice]

I almost never see 4gates in my TvPs(High diamond level). I wish I did, because 4gate is usually a pretty easy win for T if you see it coming. The only exception would be a wide ramp so they can runby, or a 15 cc.

well if you are Top diamond, then you are likely playing masters quality opponents.

and yeah PvT 4 gate is alot less likely overall.

at low levels if you are are consistantly #1 bronze, you likely play gold level opponents, silver likely plays plat, gold likely plays diamond, plat likely plays diamond and diamond likely plays masters.

it's weird how the MMR works, it'll match you up with 1 or more ranks higher but not promote you forever. one of my students got so upset that he was in silver playing masters players and it wouldn't promote him. i dunno it's weird.

EDIT: right out of beta i got up to diamond #1 then lost a game (was 100ish-30ish) and got dropped to bronze and had to spend months trying to get back to diamond despite just winning every game that wasn't an unscouted cheese. MMR is dumb.

 

[Zankoku]

I've never seen anyone drop by more than two divisions. I find it especially unlikely to drop from Diamond to Bronze, since you need a low variance before the ladder promotes/demotes you and the distance between Bronze and Diamond is pretty high. It might've been a bug involving beta/release.

Also, BNet seems to run division changes at randomized times so that people can't catch on to exact MMR values that people are promoted/demoted at. I've seen multiple instances of players getting promoted or demoted by, well, two, where it seems that their MMR had moved that far in the timespan between random checks.

 

[_Dice]

I've never seen anyone drop by more than two divisions. I find it especially unlikely to drop from Diamond to Bronze, since you need a low variance before the ladder promotes/demotes you and the distance between Bronze and Diamond is pretty high. It might've been a bug involving beta/release.

Also, BNet seems to run division changes at randomized times so that people can't catch on to exact MMR values that people are promoted/demoted at. I've seen multiple instances of players getting promoted or demoted by, well, two, where it seems that their MMR had moved that far in the timespan between random checks.

I know for a fact it was a bug. was an annoying bug, since it didn't affect the quality of opponents i had, it just had me as bronze league. lol

 

[M@v]

I actually have yet to face a masters level player yet on the ladder. But back before the ladder reset I was getting matched up against 3k+ diamonds, usually the 3.5k region. Once in a blue moon I'd see a lower Diamond, or even a 3k+ platinum. I'd win those matches 98% of the time.

I've played several masters in non ladder matches, and I will admit I'm not at that level yet. I'm close, but I still have a couple more steps to take before I reach that milestone.

 

[_Dice]

I actually have yet to face a masters level player yet on the ladder. But back before the ladder reset I was getting matched up against 3k+ diamonds, usually the 3.5k region. Once in a blue moon I'd see a lower Diamond, or even a 3k+ platinum. I'd win those matches 98% of the time.

I've played several masters in non ladder matches, and I will admit I'm not at that level yet. I'm close, but I still have a couple more steps to take before I reach that milestone.

tbh honest you are probably playing low level masters quality players who just haven't advanced yet.

the difference between top diamond and low masters is pretty small, and by that i mean the worst in masters are worse than the best in diamond. unless blizzard improved their MMR calculations after season 2.

A few of my students have this problem, they are matched up against high diamond and keep losing, and i watch the games and just think, yeah that guy is just better than you. and they sometimes get upset because they are low masters but the leagues aren't directly in order. #1 bronze player isn't worse than the worst silver. So yeah you probably are just playing low masters who haven't been promoted.

alot of the masters level in customs are mid to high masters, the competitive players who aren't good enough to compete with pros yet but still very good. Usually these people are plateau'd and need mass gaming to advance and don't do it.

the plateau of skill is THE single hardest thing to break through in the game, it's so disheartening to not be getting any better seemingly despite how many games you play. but you have to keep pushing to reach clan level.

It goes:Learning->Competitive->Clan/ameteur->semi Pro->Pro IMO
and there is plateau between each step (except the first). obviously casuals are in there at the very first, but you don't mention casuals when talking about competitions and getting better.
I'm only at the Semi Pro level, i can take games but not sets off the pros, and rarely games off of the top level. (i've been destroyed by IdrA, Jinro, Huk, and White Ra for instance). though alot of the lower level pro terrans i'm at least 50% against, but thats just my best matchup.

 

[Cynan Machae]

I'll be at a smashfest tonight but later when I come back I can play (and since I'm 1 or 2 hours ahead it should work fine)

Lol just noticed you were talking about tomorrow not today << Anyway I can pretty much anytime tomorrow, but I'll probably be on more from 5 EST ++

 

[AltF4]

4gate is totally the Peach Crouch Cancel Downsmash of Starcraft2.

At lower to mid level of plays, it's totally dominant and arguably broken. Technically speaking it's beatable, though. At the higher levels of play it isn't nearly as dominant but still wins you games regularly if your opponent messes up just a little.

If the PTR is any indication, Blizzard seems to agree.

 

[Hylian]

I think they are mainly doing that because 4gate is so strong in PVP and they want other things to happen lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

4 gating against Z probably will still happen since the timings dont actually stop how many units they are going to get at that point in time

 

[Cynan Machae]

Zone I've been on for a bit but now I have to log off, but I should be back later if you are there.

 

[Zone]

Ok I'm with some friends I'll be home later i think

 

[rhan]

So just looking through Protoss units.. If Archons go Massive then they can no longer be lifted by Phoenix's with Graviton Beam. Just was thinking that to myself cuz if they're trying to bring variety to PvP then that's one thing that can be done to fend off annoying harasses like that. Plus it's already allowing the ability to tech up from there.

Just my random times where I feel like studying.. Thought I share what I found.

 

[Cynan Machae]

Ok I'm with some friends I'll be home later i think

I'll be logged on until quite late tonight so whenever you come back and can play I'll be rdy

I won 2-1 over Zone

 

[Nasty_Nate]

I think they are mainly doing that because 4gate is so strong in PVP and they want other things to happen lol.

This
4gate isnt broken at any level
but its annoying as **** to always see it in PvP

On another note I dont think any tactic is "broken" in one league and not another. Its not the games fault that your not skilled enough to, for example, stop a 4 gate. Thats like having different teirs in melee for different skill sets. "Durr if you cant waveshine fox isnt the best character anymore and sheik is"
I hope they dont patch the game based on lower league performance

 

[Zankoku]

They patch it based on team play too rofl

Most of the changes are high-level play but if anything is legitimately "broken" then it will get patched.

The fact that there's two more expansions on the way means that we could still be in for a lot of patches, too.

 

[AltF4]

This
4gate isnt broken at any level
but its annoying as **** to always see it in PvP

On another note I dont think any tactic is "broken" in one league and not another. Its not the games fault that your not skilled enough to, for example, stop a 4 gate. Thats like having different teirs in melee for different skill sets. "Durr if you cant waveshine fox isnt the best character anymore and sheik is"
I hope they dont patch the game based on lower league performance

That's not a good attitude to have if you're designing (and patching) a game. Balance isn't just about what is good and bad at the tip top level. The game is going to be played at many skill levels. And if something is utterly broken at lower to intermediate levels, then it ruins the fun for 99% of people. Balance at the eSport level is important, but it's not everything.

Blizzard can't just come out and say "look n00bs, IdrA can defend against 4gate, so we're not going to help you, even though you can literally 4gate your way into masters league." If that were the case, (I'm exaggerating a little) then something is wrong with the game, it shouldn't be that way.

And this is exactly how smash is. At lower to mid skill levels, Sheik is totally broken. She just chain grabs more than half the cast to death, and it's super easy to do. Just because the super tip top players aren't dominated by Sheik doesn't make it "balanced", it's not. That's a very shallow view of what balance means. If we could go back and rebalance Melee, there would be loads of things to fix at all skill levels.

There's no need to think Blizzard will nerf 4gate at the expense of the eSports grandmasters level. If they're any good, they'll find a way to do both.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

4gate is the strongest of the all in rushes, which is evident because of continued popularity almost a year after the game is released. I agree its not broken, however it is very strong for the skill input. Many people have 4gated their way to masters.

Not that I really care, im just saying.

edit- sheik isn't broken at any level. Sheik hasnt won a national tournament since 2005 or earlier. Or ever? She only has chaingrabs on bad characters lol.

 

[AltF4]

edit- sheik isn't broken at any level. Sheik hasnt won a national tournament since 2005 or earlier. Or ever? She only has chaingrabs on bad characters lol.

That's what I'm saying. The REASON those characters are bad is in large part because sheik hard counters them. If you remove sheik from the game, most characters instantly become playable again. It's not good game design.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

Nope, disagree 100%

Im not gonna change the rules of baseball because little leaguers cant play the sport properly. Its not baseballs fault they cant play. Baseball should be accessible to everyone, but the rules should not change based on how everyone plays it. (Sounds terrible but bear with me.....)

Now your probably gonna argue, "Hey idiot, there are different rules for different leagues". True, but major leaguers arent forced to abide by little league rules. If there was one ruleset that everyone had to abide by, it should be made for people playing the sport properly.

This is how starcraft is. Grandmaster players have to abide by the same rules Bronze players do. Why should the grandmaster, who understands the game mechanics very well and has strong execution, have to have the game changed for a bronze player who obviously has not put in the same amount of effort into understanding the game? Emphasis in patching the game should obviously be for people who understand how the game functions. I can't whine about something being overpowered IF I DONT UNDERSTAND HOW THE GAME WORKS.

Therefore a HUGE majority of patchnotes should be for high level play. The rest should be bugfixes and improvements. (If a build is too good for the effort required, this will be still be reflected in high level play, even though it might be more obvious in lower leagues)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Thats not true at all. Most of the characters that are "hard countered" by sheik have as bad or worse matchups with fox, falco, marth and puff. In fact, ganondorf actually has more chaingrabs than sheik, and simpler strong punishment vs low tiers.

 

[AltF4]

Nate:

I think blizzard would agree with you. I know that they have explicitly stated that they don't take teams games into account when balancing, as that would be nearly impossible without adversely affecting 1v1.

But it isn't the case that balance at the lower leagues has to negatively affect the grandmasters. It's entirely possible to have a game that's balanced and fun at all levels of play, and that' what Blizzard is striving for. And for the most part, they've succeeded. The game really is balanced quite well at all levels, because they continue to make adjustments.

The world isn't split into just grandmasters and bronze n00bs. There are loads of people (IE: The majority of the people who are Blizzard's customers) who are in between. They play the game competitively, and care deeply about balance. You (and blizzard) can't just categorically ignore them because they don't represent the pinnacle of skill. That would be very bad game design, and (moreover) extraordinarily poor business.

 

[Fernandez]

hey first of all im not sure how to say this in english, but il try:
does any one know how the european,korean and na servers compare to eachother in average skilllevel?
like some one from diamond on the korean servers, would he be diamond on eu and na servers aswell?
I wonder wich server is be the hardest overall.

 

[Kenrawr]

korea>>>euro>>NA

 

[_Dice]

hey first of all im not sure how to say this in english, but il try:
does any one know how the european,korean and na servers compare to eachother in average skilllevel?
like some one from diamond on the korean servers, would he be diamond on eu and na servers aswell?
I wonder wich server is be the hardest overall.

It's not a straight Step in difficulty it's weird.

Korean server is more difficult than the others due to generally higher skill level at all ranks over the other servers, and the top are consistantly all pro gamers or teamed players.

Euro is usualyl considered next due to the general concensus in europe to follow standard play and do it consistantly, so they are all generally the same the variation only appears in the pros on europe.

NA is the most casual, however this means it is also the most random making it much easier (as the skill level is generally lower at all levels except the very top) EXCEPT for zergs, as often it becomes mandatory to always play much safer than you normally would on NA as zerg. which is why when i do ladder for practice i play on europe. for the consistancy.

so on NA zerg is hardest out of the foreign servers, however Euro's skill level tends to be higher.

SEA server is kind of a joke, the best players are on par with europe's top players, then an enormous gap and then everyone else is even below NA server in skill.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm pretty sure its KOR > US > EU.

 

[Zankoku]

Top EU players seem to have had more success lately than top US players.

 

[_Dice]

I'm pretty sure its KOR > US > EU.

That depends.

in order of difficulty to be ranked well on

it's Kor -> US -> EU

in order of skill level it's

Kor -> EU -> US

in order of skill level of the very top (top 100/200)

it's Kor -> EU/US.

 

[Kenrawr]

is NA really on EU's level? they're so good, especially the swedes.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

I haven't played on other servers but Im pretty sure everyone is damn good at starcraft. I wouldnt be surprised if EU and NA are very close

I think its 3 americans, 4-5 europeans, and an australian thats been on the gsl right? Thats a pretty damn good spread, considering its in Korea

 

[_Dice]

is NA really on EU's level? they're so good, especially the swedes.

well yeah at the top the skill level is the same.

though sweden > the US in terms of skill there are other countries on NA and EU besides those two. EU as a whole is better than NA though (counting all leagues, not just GM.

 

[Kenrawr]

I haven't played on other servers but Im pretty sure everyone is damn good at starcraft. I wouldnt be surprised if EU and NA are very close

I think its 3 americans, 4-5 europeans, and an australian thats been on the gsl right? Thats a pretty damn good spread, considering its in Korea

if you're talking about just the last gsl it was 2 canadians and 4 europeans.

 

[Kenrawr]

well yeah at the top the skill level is the same.

though sweden > the US in terms of skill there are other countries on NA and EU besides those two. EU as a whole is better than NA though (counting all leagues, not just GM.

o i wasn't talking about just the US. i've been keeping it to all of NA. and ya, they're still people like dimaga and white-ra for ukraine and TLO and Thorzain for germany just to name a couple other countries. it just feels like they have such an awesome roster.

edit: how the-- i coulda sworn i was editing my previous post to include this. sorry for the double post.