Standards of the Melee community - Urge to become better

[Alex Strife]

This is part of it, but not the whole story. Plenty of people have recording setups with commentary available, but either don't let people commentate or nobody wants to.

There are channels which used to have commentary, and then stopped. That doesn't happen because of a lack of knowledge; if they didn't know how to set up commentary they couldn't have done it 2 years ago. Its just that there have been countless threads and youtube comments criticizing commentary or calling it "useless" that people just don't think its worth the effort anymore. These are not my words, I've asked these questions to tons of uploaders and thats their answer.

Its a sad state of affairs.



I don't think we need to follow what other gaming communities are doing in order to succeed. We are superior to them in many ways and are inferior in others. What makes us special are the colorful personalities we have, and if keeping them authentic means sacrificing professionalism, then so be it. Our target demographic is males between their teens and late 30s. Saying curse words is not going deter them one bit, in fact its probably going to make things seem more provocative lol.

you cannot compare chants like stack it up/swag/other memes or to using words like "****" or "gay." they are not in the same stratosphere wrt "professionalism". yeah, if we are going to broadcast to large audiences then there's a line we don't want to cross while trying to create hype or express excitement. no arguments there but a large portion of what create/facilitates hype is innocuous

Chants are awesome and I agree if we are professional on the mic its all we really need.

This week, I met a nine year old kid at the local game shop who suddenly said Wombo Combo while we were playing.
A nine year old will never remember Wife's commentary, despite how good, cool and professional it is. We need the emotions for commentary.

I'm also surprised you didn't mention the behavior of participants, Alex. They're quite a big part in the tournament and their general behavior outside of the game is very important in creating a nice tournament that you want to come back to.

I honestly forgot about that but I think that the main reason is that we cannot control what other people do but only the things we are in charge of. If I ask Mango to stop being a jerk he does not have any obligation to do so ( despite how I feel about top and how they should act )

While yes Wombo Combo is a funny thing and people seem to know it...That was not the point of what I said. The main thing is that we are trying to be more presentable.

We can create good commentary by having a mixture of play by play and color commentary.

 

[Bing]

I think for the commentary, they shouldnt really be paid as too given free entry/venue.

Also, yes, treat us Noobs right! We'll keep coming back plus we bring in like 70% of the pot XD

We need to cross breed Taj and KirbyKaze

 

[Alex Strife]

I feel the same way.

At Apex I pay the following people


- Commentators
- Tos
- Staff
- Stream
- Various other people that help


why? Because I have expectations and they should be met.

 

[Bing]

Need any help at APEX?

 

[Alex Strife]

LOL the more help the better but for paid staff I have used most of my budget xD


BTW about recording commentary...it is not that hard but people are lazy and do not want crappy commentary. People can step up and learn how to commentate properly by watching sports. You have to be smart about it. I just find it silly that people cannot do this properly and...no offense to this community I love...that we do not urge people to do better...it makes me feel like no one really cares but myself.

 

[DerfMidWest]

hmmm... here is my opinion:

There needs to be hype, but also a genuine commentary. I haven't seen this too often, and the people who usually do this generally don't commentate
I like when commentators actually have something to say, but I like them to be fun as well.
It, by no means, needs to be as hype as HMW/Phil, but I don't like when its just boring.

I loved HMW/Phil when I was kind of new to smash because they entertained me, but now that I generally understand the game more and have a greater want to get better I tend to enjoy more intelligent commentary, but a lot of times, while the commentator knows their **** and I like what they are trying to say, I just get bored with it because they have next to no hype.

Also, two commentators should be a maximum... because once it gets to like 3 or 4 it gets a little chaotic and out of control and kinda obnoxious (usually).

I like that HMW and Phil like to commentate, but they are a little annoying at times, and like ShroudedOne said, they tend to insult players they don't like. I tend to feel the same way about certain things to an extent, but I agree that they should just spend the whole match (and the rest of the tourney) insulting the players for how they play.

I think that we need more commentators, tbh. Like, commentators who go to all the big tourneys and are capable of providing a genuine commentary. I don't think anybody would really mind HMW/Phil as much if they weren't like the only commentators.

 

[Spyro]

LOL the more help the better but for paid staff I have used most of my budget xD


BTW about recording commentary...it is not that hard but people are lazy and do not want crappy commentary. People can step up and learn how to commentate properly by watching sports. You have to be smart about it. I just find it silly that people cannot do this properly and...no offense to this community I love...that we do not urge people to do better...it makes me feel like no one really cares but myself.

I care . I do feel like we could grow the community more if we had better commentary in our videos.

*EDIT* I think alot of people overlook melee because of the commentary. Because there's no intelligent conversation going on but rather just people screaming, they just assume the game has little to no depth.

 

[Deleted member]

LOL the more help the better but for paid staff I have used most of my budget xD

I'll help you with whatever at Apex. No pay necessary. Apex is your baby and I believe in it.

I agree that most commentary sucks. I'll try to do you one better before the big day.

 

[Alex Strife]

Thanks Umby

 

[kevo]

It really does make a difference. Before I read this thread I just thought "what's the big deal? Just get the videos up and a working stream so people who can't make it to Apex can see what happened." Now after seeing how much sheer quality and effort is being put into making the matches presentable, with a high quality stream and commentary, I might invite my friends over to my house and have an Apex Party.

 

[Naughty Pixel]

The first melee video I watched, and the one that got me saying 'I wanna do that' was the dr pp m2k grand finals at either rom 3 or pound 4 on rainbow cruise I didn't know it was grand finals or anything I just knew it was melee and I remember HMW saying something like "pp is playing like the happiest man in the world right now" and something about that sent a shiver down my spine as I watched him play his way around the map and beat m2k

But conversly the hbox armada set was just a little lame... I had to turn off the volume to enjoy wwatching the set

 

[the_CAM_factor]

i think there should always be two people on commentary, it definitely adds to the depth of the match if theres an actual conversation being said about it

 

[Roneblaster]

Commentating melee and sports arent even similar despite the fact that alot of ppl say that.

Kirbykaze and lovage duo is the future of commentary.

Kirbykaze says everything about melee, lovage talks about the players and says WOW!

 

[Alex Strife]

e-sports need professionalism

 

[Veetaak]

e-sports need professionalism

This is so true.

A part of Esports is about getting companies to sponsor tournaments and it wont happen unless the community acts professional

 

[Alex Strife]

We can live in our own world OR we can get better.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

This is so true.

A part of Esports is about getting companies to sponsor tournaments and it wont happen unless the community acts professional

Sponsors care about the number of views & the mode of advertising. They don't care what we do or say on the side.

Just look at Yipes. He has 2 sponsors, a clothing line, and a legion of followers. Deadpool even quotes him in the game. Every time he steps up to the mic, twitter blows up and the viewercount goes up.

Yet he isn't kosher and he doesn't dumb it down. Hes as raw as it gets, and people love it.

e-sports need professionalism

Why?

All it needs to be is entertaining. The FGC recognizes this too (I hate to keep bringing them up but they are our closest comparison point)...why do you think guys like TwistedJago morph personalities for themselves? He created a show, titled "Why we hate you" where he basically **** talks the entire time. Its wildly popular (and very funny) and a great contrast to crosscounter's happy-go-lucky style. He found an entertainment mode that was missing, and he filled it. We have to do the same.

If you think that we need smash versions of Ultradavid on the mic at nationals, then godspeed but I think you would be hurting the community. The reason why people would choose a FGC stream over ours is because they don't know our personalities yet. This is important. They need people to root for, people to hate, and things to talk about. The gameplay is important, but if you really wanna make it big, it has to be about more than that.

The thing is, we HAVE story arcs and drama. The Armada/Mango rivalry at Genesis, the rise of PP, the Armada/Hbox rivalry, etc are all great material. We just don't have the storytellers (commentators, bloggers, facebookers, twitterers, youtube uploaders) to highlight them...

Let me put it this way: if high-caliber gameplay was all that is needed to have a massive following, then Melee would already be the most popular game and no one would watch Marvel 3.

(note: Jago is sponsored too btw. despite being so abrasive)

 

[PEEF!]

wo w

I'll keep quiet for now.

 

[Mew2King]

Well if you need a guy to hate I'm your guy

(even tho i help ppl more than almost anyone <__<)

 

[D1]

This is a good read.

 

[Alex Strife]

Sponsors care about the number of views & the mode of advertising. They don't care what we do or say on the side.

So by that logic you are saying that we can curse and put down the sponsors?

TBH I deal with sponsors a lot more than you do and I can tell you that professionalism is just as important as how we present ourselves.

Yet he isn't kosher and he doesn't dumb it down. Hes as raw as it gets, and people love it.

Actually on most major streams that he is on he does not curse.

All it needs to be is entertaining. The FGC recognizes this too (I hate to keep bringing them up but they are our closest comparison point)...why do you think guys like TwistedJago morph personalities for themselves? He created a show, titled "Why we hate you" where he basically **** talks the entire time. Its wildly popular (and very funny) and a great contrast to crosscounter's happy-go-lucky style. He found an entertainment mode that was missing, and he filled it. We have to do the same.

I wont disagree but I will say that talk shows have nothing to do with the stream. Our commentators need to be able to present themselves well. As a major tournament organizer...rather the person who organizes the biggest event of the year and for future years...I think we should have a better standard than making fools of ourselves. Cause I think we all want more exposure and doing stuff like this on commentating will help me to provide better sponsors.

If you think that we need smash versions of Ultradavid on the mic at nationals, then godspeed but I think you would be hurting the community. The reason why people would choose a FGC stream over ours is because they don't know our personalities yet. This is important. They need people to root for, people to hate, and things to talk about. The gameplay is important, but if you really wanna make it big, it has to be about more than that.

100% disagree cause as long as we need have bad stuff we wont get anywhere.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

So by that logic you are saying that we can curse and put down the sponsors?

No. I said "mode of advertising" for a reason. If they are advertised poorly, i.e. you put them down, then they will not be happy.

If you curse during your commentary, they will not give a damn. It really doesn't matter unless you go crazy overboard.

Actually on most major streams that he is on he does not curse.

lol ESPN Yipes

But nah, he does curse a lot.

But the cursing is a minor point. Curses are just words. What I am saying is you shouldn't filter someone's personality to try to be professional.

I wont disagree but I will say that talk shows have nothing to do with the stream.

They have everything to do with the stream. The personalities in the talk shows are the personalities in the tournaments. Of course it matters.

I think we should have a better standard than making fools of ourselves. Cause I think we all want more exposure and doing stuff like this on commentating will help me to provide better sponsors

But we aren't making a fool of ourselves. We would just be entertaining.

We'll get sponsors once we step our viewercounts up. You know what video has a high viewer count?

Wombo combo.

100% disagree cause as long as we need have bad stuff we wont get anywhere.

I mean, what, do you think 15-40 year old males are turning off the stream cause we say **** or ****? Do you really think thats what happens?

 

[Lovage]

this thread is dildos lol

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

this thread is dildos lol

WOW!

What language.

WOW!

(if it helps oscar, i think you're a great commentator <3)

 

[Spyro]

Commentating melee and sports arent even similar despite the fact that alot of ppl say that.

Kirbykaze and lovage duo is the future of commentary.

Kirbykaze says everything about melee, lovage talks about the players and says WOW!

I've never heard KirbyKaze or Lovage do commentary. Is there a video on Youtube?

 

[PEEF!]

I've never heard KirbyKaze or Lovage do commentary. Is there a video on Youtube?

Its from The Big House, the tournament that I streamed last weekend.

Which, by the way, was in good quality, was perfectly smooth, had player and commentator cams, and had 2400 max live concurrent and 300,000 total views. It was an example of a perfect and successful stream, something that some people suggest doesn't exist.

This is the whole tourney:
http://www.twitch.tv/peefsmash/b/298090515
http://www.twitch.tv/peefsmash/b/298135164

Lovage and KK are scattered throughout

 

[Spyro]

Its from The Big House, the tournament that I streamed last weekend.

Which, by the way, was in good quality, was perfectly smooth, had player and commentator cams, and had 2400 max live concurrent and 300,000 total views. It was an example of a perfect and successful stream, something that some people suggest doesn't exist.

This is the whole tourney:
http://www.twitch.tv/peefsmash/b/298090515
http://www.twitch.tv/peefsmash/b/298135164

Lovage and KK are scattered throughout

Ok thanks.I saw some of the matches with Raynex, Duck, and Lovage in them. You did an awesome job on the stream Peef .

 

[Alex Strife]

I disagree I felt it can be done better but its still a good start.

 

[Teczer0]

Its from The Big House, the tournament that I streamed last weekend.

Which, by the way, was in good quality, was perfectly smooth, had player and commentator cams, and had 2400 max live concurrent and 300,000 total views. It was an example of a perfect and successful stream, something that some people suggest doesn't exist.

This is the whole tourney:
http://www.twitch.tv/peefsmash/b/298090515
http://www.twitch.tv/peefsmash/b/298135164

Lovage and KK are scattered throughout

So I hate to be like the dude who has to be a downer but... definitely not imo.

Don't get me wrong, the stream was very impressive and you did get a lot of viewers, but you weren't able to keep nearly that many till the end. And things coulda been done better.

Its a great start, but far from perfect.

 

[Spyro]

So I hate to be like the dude who has to be a downer but... definitely not imo.

Don't get me wrong, the stream was very impressive and you did get a lot of viewers, but you weren't able to keep nearly that many till the end. And things coulda been done better.

Its a great start, but far from perfect.

I never said it was perfect, but compared to our past streams, it was a big improvement.

 

[Teczer0]

Didn't claim you ever said it was dude.

 

[PEEF!]

You're right Tec0, Things could be done better with better capture/computer equipment and slight changes to stream format. I guess I shouldn't say PERFECT. I couldnt do some things with format because it would freeze my comp, it was streamed from a macbook lol. These problems should be fixed soon though. The fact that viewers didn't stay shouldnt be surprising considering smash's party game reputation.

We may need to "urge to be better", but at some point that is going to come down to money, people need to keep that in mind. There is very little motivation (or even ability) for the average smash streamer to go get a 1000 dollar gaming rig to stream from. I did about as good as was possible with my rig. Nobody pays streamers to go to tournaments to stream like they do in other games. This is a huge reason that smash doesn't have very much production value.

 

[Teczer0]

I can't say for everyone obviously but for me the quality of the stream was perfectly fine. I know my friend told me he dropped like once maybe twice but it was really minor. I was there for the majority of the stream as well.

I was mainly talking about the stuff during the stream. It seemed a bit disorganized, and even as a smasher, the stream didn't catch my attention until players of duck, vanz, lovage caliber got on. A lot of times the matches just seemed empty and its just there for filler. I just didn't get that rush until later in the stream.

I hope you don't take this as a negative thing peef, I really do believe what you're doing is a great thing. I just hope to see improvement since you seem so willing to continue the streaming business.

There are always things you can improve on outside of technology.

 

[PEEF!]

I can't say for everyone obviously but for me the quality of the stream was perfectly fine. I know my friend told me he dropped like once maybe twice but it was really minor. I was there for the majority of the stream as well.

I was mainly talking about the stuff during the stream. It seemed a bit disorganized, and even as a smasher, the stream didn't catch my attention until players of duck, vanz, lovage caliber got on. A lot of times the matches just seemed empty and its just there for filler. I just didn't get that rush until later in the stream.

I hope you don't take this as a negative thing peef, I really do believe what you're doing is a great thing. I just hope to see improvement since you seem so willing to continue the streaming business.

There are always things you can improve on outside of technology.

Yeah, a serious and planned dedication to getting good matches constantly on the stream, kicking off randoms, and stuff like that is currently lacking. Juggle made a serious effort to set up good streamed matches beforehand and such, but it could have been even better. The matches honestly were for filler, but that is because there isn't always a grand finals match going on. I'm not sure how to fix that either, not to mention you need a TO who is really committed to the stream to make it work, alot of TOs consider streams just distractions that slow things down.

 

[commonyoshi]

I got into the tournament scene because of Waffles and Phil, guys Alex Strife have said/implied are "unprofessional" or commentate poorly. I also got my friends interested in melee again because of videos like the Wombo Combo.

Not everyone can see their first melee vid and understand all the crazy stuff that's going on. Noobs wont understand super technical commentary until they get their prolonged firsthand experience at the game. You know what does attract new players and helps them stick with melee? Hype.

In a nutshell... no u
No disrespect though. Wish you luck with Apex.

 

[Teczer0]

Hm, yea its rough I hate to make it sound so simple since I'm aware its not but, maybe updates on the tourney, maybe better commentary during the "filler matches", different time usage, iunno just some suggestions.

I realize not everything can be grand finals lvl play but my problem is that the other matches felt ignored. I wish just more happened during that time, even if its something simple as talking about rivalries we can expect during this tourney, or things the newer players are doing wrong, iunno something.

Just throwing out suggestions at this point lol.

 

[Alex Strife]

Yea we will be doing that with Apex so that people do not get bored.

 

[Pi]

@commonyoshi
tons and tons of people have seen and heard the wombo combo so obviously it's fun and enjoyable to watch
but it doesn't offer much in terms of explaining whats going on in the match, it's just hype commentary
which has it's place.

what we need more of, us informative
and ur example of people not understanding all the technical jargin and stuff that commentators will have to use to stay current in a match, that can also act as incentive for players to learn and progress in the game

for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B-Sr2HF_wM
i never played the game, don't know it's ish
but it's still exciting even w/ all the stuff i don't understand

 

[Battlecow]

I agree with Tec0 that there are improvements to be made, but I watched like 6 hours of the big house stream when I should have been working, and it was really well done overall; Peef did a great job with it. There was good commentary for the most part (well, there was some good commentary, at least), it worked fine technically and quality-wise, etc.

 

[Teczer0]

@commonyoshi
tons and tons of people have seen and heard the wombo combo so obviously it's fun and enjoyable to watch
but it doesn't offer much in terms of explaining whats going on in the match, it's just hype commentary
which has it's place.

what we need more of, us informative
and ur example of people not understanding all the technical jargin and stuff that commentators will have to use to stay current in a match, that can also act as incentive for players to learn and progress in the game

for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B-Sr2HF_wM
i never played the game, don't know it's ish
but it's still exciting even w/ all the stuff i don't understand

I agree with this more or less. When we had the front page or w/e (I don't know exactly how twitch works) and newer people were in the stream along with us, the stream should have been catered to them. A lot of answers were answered by the stream and the stream didn't I guess dumb it down enough for the newer streamers.

Not to say we have to do how Starcraft commentators run things but to run a few parallels, I was once very interested in the pro starcraft scene and am now a very avid watcher of pro SC. What helped people like myself get into it was that the commentators broke it down for me assuming I knew absolutely nothing about the game. Talk about certain builds, units, etc.

We can't replicate it as well as SC commentators since matches run like 4 mins on average and theres just way too much to talk about but information like that is nice to listen to.

As an example, I actually really, really enjoyed Lovage's commentary. Aside from being hilarious he gave a lot of information on fox, his thought process, possible options, etc. Same with Wife/Husband who give a ton of insight into the players during the set.