Stale moves in Melee. No, really.

[Rayzorium]

So yeah, almost every projectile in the game stales brawl-style in knockback. As in, most of them have less than half the original knockback when fully diminished. Mind blown? Mine was.

The only projectiles that don't stale in knockback are moves that don't even stale in damage (big surprise there) lasers (even bigger), and Disable. Oh, and Peach Bomber stales too. Go figure.

Now was this a cool story or what?

 

[MT_]

Cool story bro.

Haha no seriously I didn't know that... I only knew that Samus's charge shot staled (because that's like the main one with any serious knockback).

 

[N64]

pikachu's upair stales to 2% damage. Knockback is solid though.

poor pikachu.

 

[Rayzorium]

Falcon's rapid punches do 0 damage sometimes!

Anyway, yeah... Samus's charged shot and missiles were fairly unknown for something that was discovered over 4 years ago, but it's still kind of funny that nobody thought to check if other projectiles did this. I only thought to try it because Kaostar posted this in response to charged shot being brought up:

I jv5 a level 9 bowser using only shadow ball and noticed that even over 140 it would never send him flying.

Of course, charged shot is pretty much the only practical projectile with meaningful knockback that's affected by this, so this additional stuff is pure novelty. But still!

 

[TheGoat]

Falcon's rapid punches do 0 damage sometimes!

Wow really
how ****ing lame

 

[OkamiBW]

And how often does Samus camp with only charge shots and then expect a large one to send his/her opponent flying?

Perhaps this could affect a Link players game?

Also...do turnips stale on the single turnip or if you keep spamming them?

 

[Rayzorium]

Heh, true enough. But missile spam is not terribly unusual, and can seriously hinder the killing power of smash missiles.

I don't think this would affect a Link player much. Boomerangs and arrows barely have any knockback anyway. Bomb and turnips fall into the first category of exceptions that I gave - they don't become stale even in damage, even if you catch the same turnip and throw it again.

 

[Seikend]

Falcon's rapid punches do 0 damage sometimes!

As far as I know it doesn't do 0, but it does 0.6% or whatever. I believe you can get damage that isn't an integer, just when it displays the total damage it rounds.

 

[Jonas]

In Brawl stale moves are determined by a 10 move queue. Is it the same for Melee?

 

[X1-12]

9 slots in melee

also the slot position matters, if you use the same move twice it'll be really stale, but if you use a move then 8 others then the same move it'll only be a bit stale.

There's actually a formula for it I think someone worked it out

 

[Tamoo]

I think i remember something like when falco's shine stales to 7%, there's no hitstun and you just go flying off and are able to do anything.

Stale moves is def not new news: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OgCDwvLO8
but hasn't really been researched as in depth as in brawl because it's nowhere near as severe as in brawl

And as seikend stated, all moves actually do decimal damage, but are only viewed as integers

 

[Siglemic]

I think i remember something like when falco's shine stales to 7%, there's no hitstun and you just go flying off and are able to do anything.

what .. are you serious ?

 

[gghhh3]

what .. are you serious ?

Go pillar a lvl9 fox, once falco's shine stales the fox will bair you.

 

[X1-12]

If the launcher does less than 7.00% fresh it will happen even without being staled. Moves like Falco's shine, raptor boost, etc just happen to be at or above the 7.00% mark normally but quickly dip below it when staled a bit. It's related to resets, and a special animation used when hit by an attack that does less than 7.00% while on the ground. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9872129&postcount=28


How the damage staling system works: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9016367&postcount=6176

Moves that stale in both damage AND knockback like Brawl: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9135932&postcount=6771

magus is the god

 

[Rayzorium]

Indeed; All hail. O_O

How did you find that, though? I searched pretty thoroughly (or so I thought) to make sure this wasn't known already (actually it still seems relatively unknown, despite having been discovered). It's buried so deeply, and in a character-specific thread too.

 

[X1-12]

I remember seeing it reposted somewhere, and that it included the words raptor boost and 7%


search -> posts by magus420 -> raptor boost 7%

 

[ChivalRuse]

I was under the impression that knockback doesn't stale, but rather damage does, and since knockback is calculated after damage, a staled move will result in less knockback than a fresh one. Do projectiles interact with the staling system differently or something?

 

[X1-12]

I was under the impression that knockback doesn't stale, but rather damage does, and since knockback is calculated after damage, a staled move will result in less knockback than a fresh one. Do projectiles interact with the staling system differently or something?

bazinga....

Falco's lasers don't have any KBG, so it doesn't matter for them.


Moves affected by both staled damage and staled growth (like Brawl's system):
Doc's pills, Mario/Luigi's fireballs, Yoshi's eggs, Fox's illusion, Falco's phantasm, Ness' PK-thunder/flash/fire, ICs' ice blocks/blizzard, Kirby's up-b projectile/neutral-b projectiles, Samus' charged shot/missiles/bombs, Zelda's din's fire, Sheik's needles/up-B explosion, Link/YLink's boomerangs/arrows, Pika/Pichu's thunder jolts/thunder (not the ground hit), M2's shadow balls, and G&W's sausages.
(the red ones are the attacks with enough KBG to have a significant effect on KB, and bolded are ones that are kill moves and are affected the most)


If it doesn't have a good amount of growth it won't make much of a difference overall. If it's mostly just base knockback (KB doesn't scale very much with increased damage), it's not very noticeable even when fully staled until very high damages.

 

[Rayzorium]

Don't forget about Peach Bomber!

 

[DippnDots]

YEAH PEACH BOMBER! I havent heard it called that in years.... years.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I think i remember something like when falco's shine stales to 7%, there's no hitstun and you just go flying off and are able to do anything.

Not QUITE. This is only the case when you hit the opponent with Falco's shine as they're already knocked down, laying on the ground. This is why it's generally not a good idea, as Falco, to try to continue a combo with shine waveland when you've comboed the opponent onto a platform.

It's not just Falco's shine too. Try comboing a knocked down opponent with a stale Raptor Boost. See what happens. It's actually ANY move with non-fixed knockback that does less than 7%.

This is actually probably the most (only?) important case where stale moves matter.

 

[SleepyK]

idc about anything in this thread
but it's cool to see rayzorium back

rising falcon star

then disappear

will he return

will there be vids


very yes? please

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Melee's stale moves are usually less noticeable than Brawl's stale moves. Of course, using the same move repeatedly does lower the amount of damage that the move does, which may be a sign of stale moves.

Strangely, even with stale moves, certain moves can still make KOs quite easily, such as Fox's u-smash.