Stages Discussion for C.Falcon (UPDATED for NEW MBR rules)

[Windrose]

Alright, I'm on it.

 

[Aussierob123]

I had a stupid argument with someone because he was telling me that FOD is better vs peach than dream land. I feel like FoD is better against no character let alone peach lol. Is it ever a good stage to go to?

 

[Deleted member]

i think FoD is pretty good vs samus but u should just let them counterpick them there for you

 

[0Room]

Lmao no, not imo
FoD is pretty ****ing big off stage
FoD is pretty small on stage

I would personally NEVER counterpick there against a Peach
Ganon kinda gets messed up there but not really
There really isn't any character I would CP there personally because I just don't think their disadvantage outweighs yours

 

[BigD!!!]

i hate fod vs samus, and love using samus on fod

i used to go there over dreamland, but i changed my mind

 

[crush]

Seak is really good for falcon imo

same with akaneia and icetop

 

[_Rocky_]

on the counterpicking sheik to fd discussion earlier
----
sheiks will go for grabs/knockdowns vs you mostly and being in the air is generally a bad position for her
her mobility is poor compared to falcon, who flies across platforms with ease thanks to wavelanding and good overall stats

a strategy that's common sense is to platform camp to avoid getting grabbed. if you also combine this with smooth movement and good spacing sheik will have a very hard time getting in on you on stages like dreamland, battlefield and stadium, while you can make tricky approaches or baits.
you will also have slightly better chances of recovering thanks to platforms and quite frankly platforms tend to help break some sheik comboes while falcon doesn't suffer as badly

comparatively fd forces you to get down to the ground level eventually, which is where sheik wants you to be. she also has it easy out with needle camping and doing whatever combo she feels like. no platforms also mean that you cant use them for recovery, another thing that sheik doesn't benefit from as much as falcon does.

not too elaborate on the subject but i definitely do not think FD is a good choice to counterpick. s2j vs m2k demonstrated how i feel about it pretty well. what do you guys think?

 

[0Room]

Well this is what I think

1) Sheik - This is a hard match up, there's no way around it. The only solace you get is that 1) Sheik has no approach and 2) her needles go in straight lines. As with all the characters in this "tier", your mobility is your greatest strength, and if you don't flaunt that, you will not win. However, at higher levels, I do believe this is a 50/50: Your mobility and combo potential equals out her edgeguarding and the fact that when she hits you she kills you.

 

[Windrose]

on the counterpicking sheik to fd discussion earlier
----
sheiks will go for grabs/knockdowns vs you mostly and being in the air is generally a bad position for her
her mobility is poor compared to falcon, who flies across platforms with ease thanks to wavelanding and good overall stats

a strategy that's common sense is to platform camp to avoid getting grabbed. if you also combine this with smooth movement and good spacing sheik will have a very hard time getting in on you on stages like dreamland, battlefield and stadium, while you can make tricky approaches or baits.
you will also have slightly better chances of recovering thanks to platforms and quite frankly platforms tend to help break some sheik comboes while falcon doesn't suffer as badly

comparatively fd forces you to get down to the ground level eventually, which is where sheik wants you to be. she also has it easy out with needle camping and doing whatever combo she feels like. no platforms also mean that you cant use them for recovery, another thing that sheik doesn't benefit from as much as falcon does.

not too elaborate on the subject but i definitely do not think FD is a good choice to counterpick. s2j vs m2k demonstrated how i feel about it pretty well. what do you guys think?

Disagree.

Battlefield is bad vs sheik, those platforms are perfect for her(one notable thing is sheik is able to dair you from below the platform on bf). Battlefield and FoD are two of sheik's best stages. DON'T go there unless you have to. Usually BF is the lesser of two evils and you should expect to go there if you win the first round (as you will be banning FoD) the only other thing i can think of is getting CP'd to yoshi's in which case the sheik might think the smaller tighter stage would give her an advantage by limiting falcon moving space and being able to kill him earlier.

Sheik needs platforms way more than falcon does.

vs any even adequate sheik, you won't even get a chance to try to recover back onto the stage and do some platform trickery. (somebody already mentioned this in the discussion)

so you shouldn't worry so much about off stage recovery and more about how you'll try to capitalize and win on stage.

FD is huge you can just run around sheik all day and use your mobility to conquer the large stage. needles are only to get you to be scared and try to recklessly run into her.

It has already been mentioned before but no platforms limit sheik's recovery so much more which makes edge guarding her a lot easier. (the most difficult option to cover on sheik's recovery is when she up b's onto the platforms.)

Platform camping is nice but I'm pretty sure FD is still great vs sheik. Somebody else can surely agree with me. Hax does pretty well vs Sheik on FD, I think that's a good example.

If we take a look @ matches, usually sheik will get CP'd to Pokemon stadium (which is the next best thing after FD) because Sheiks ban FD vs falcon.

EDIT:
With regards to being on the ground vs flying around on platforms vs sheik as being good or bad....I'm not too sure about whether or not it's disadvantageous for falcon to be on the ground...perhaps others can input their knowledge on this.

 

[tarheeljks]

0room, i don't see how you can call the mu hard, implying that is disadvantageous, and then say it is 50/50. one person (hax) should not dictate the mu b/c there is always going to be someone who excels in a given mu, regardless of what conventions suggest. that says that mu's can be dealt w/in practice, and i agree w/that notion, but that's different than saying the mu is even

edit: i assume you'll say hard and disadvantageous don't need to be exclusive and that's true b/c all mu's are hard against players of similar or better ability. however, when we look at the reasons that this particular mu is difficult it's b/c one character has to work harder than the other and has less margin for error. i don't think the ability to **** the opponent is sufficient to call a mathcup even (i think that makes them playable). all the good characters in this game have enough tools to win if the handler is skilled enough; it's about degree of difficulty and margin for error and overall falcon gets the short end of the stick against sheik

 

[Wenbobular]

I mean an even matchup should be hard if you're battling someone of even skill level

A disadvantaged matchup is like, really hard status

I guess you addressed that in the 2nd half but I don't think Sheik is really thaaaat troublesome

 

[Aussierob123]

The more I analyze the matchup the more it seems even to me. Disclaimer before reading this big load of text: I AM NOT HAX so I don't know if this is his plan, but this is the only thing I can seem to get from his playstyle that seems useable for other players outside of his amazing reading capabilities.

The reason FD is good for sheik is because the whole match up is a game of spacing from both ends, because both characters have quite a poor approach game. If you watch a hax match vs sheik, he will dash dance / throw out aerials in a zone that is outside of the ftilt range, and only just outside or within the dash attack range. (a sheik that doesn't tilt or dash attack is usually gonna try and use an aerial or maybe needle, needles are dangerous to be using at that close range and an aerial is easily countered cuz falcon > sheik when she's higher than him.)This is a really good range to be in and I urge you to try it next time you play the match up, as it is good for avoiding the ftilt approach and baiting a dash attack, and a dash attack that you can predict is horribly easy to counter (crouch cancel, SH dair, etc etc), while you can space yourself to get in between tilts. Hax makes it look like he's on the offense which would be intimidating for any opponent, and he always manages to bait a mistake from a sheik which gives him an opening.

Once you have the opening you have two goals. 1. Get sheik in the air and 2. get her off the edge and force her to upB. This is where it is extremely important to learn some combos, but the basic option is to get a grab, throw her up and start some uair > regrab combos. it is almost ALWAYS a better option to uair her twice off the edge instead of going for the knee, because if you miss the knee she will get back and you are often ****ed if she does and if you're too far out.

The reason FD is a great option is because it's a flat ground obviously, so this spacing battle is much easier for a falcon which evens the match up out a bit. Another reason is that the platforms can make comboing more difficult, unless you are hax and you ****. finally, recovery always sucks vs sheik no matter WHICH stage you are on, whereas the platforms seem to give sheik more options than they do for falcon. On FD it's easy, just hold the ledge and if she is too far to hurt you with up B, keep holding + wait for the chance to ledgehop stomp or knee, or otherwise just get back on the stage right before the hitbox of her up B and edgeguard whatever option she choses.

I think once you learn the basics of the match up in this form, you start to get a feel for sheik and it becomes easier to man handle her on other stages too. I'm not saying everything I've said is correct, but this is just my view on it all. feel free to tell me otherwise because any discussion about this matchup is useful.

 

[0Room]

Wenbobular and Aussierob kind of covered this
But two things

1) I'm not going from just what Hax says. I play Sheiks on a regular basis and that's my opinion from my experience (I will admit Hax influenced my final decision but I don't base it off of him)

2) I say it's hard because even if it is even, it's you have to be extremely proficient in the match up or it becomes really hard really fast. The spacing on that ftilt is nasty, and of course any hit becomes a stock almost. So it's hard because of the experience needed before any kind of 50/50 to be achieved.

 

[_Rocky_]

i concede my argument. Dunno why but most sheiks i play tend to do better there and armada's slaughtered me so badly on that stage that counterpicking it feels risky when im playing those he's taught the falcon matchup to

also aussierob turns out i was wrong about uair dj knee on marth in pal, man i must have sucked **** back when i made myself think it wasnt guaranteed LOL

 

[Aussierob123]

Lol all good, it's just a timing thing. I Mess up the timing for a lot of things in this game which makes me think PAL is different. It's annoying lol that's why I can't wait to see mango play here so I can see if there are more differences than we know.

 

[FabulousGeorge]

I know this thread is kinda dead, but I was wondering if someone could explain how and why certain characters are gayed by battlefield.

I think it was mentioned that falco is. Is that because he can't up-b sweetspot or something?

Also are there things you can do to prevent falcon from being stupid and not grabbing the edge from your second jump?

Probably more questions in time

 

[Wenbobular]

Not grabbing the ledge with your second jump is just you misjudging because it's kinda goofy like that, just be more careful

Fox and Falco get their recoveries gimped because they can't ride the bottom of the stage so you can usually get an easy edgeguard from the stage
They also randomly just die when they Firefox / illusion straight at it

 

[Windrose]

it's also easy for falcon to recover if they somehow get caught under the stage and bump his head. this happens much more frequently than you might think on bf.

on an unrelated note...

i really need to get on to organizing / summarizing this thread's info onto the first post -_____-

 

[0Room]

CF's ball that he turns into will sometimes push you away from the wall xD

spacies cannot hold the ledge if they hold towards the ledge
[like if they hold right the entire time they are headed towards the ledge, as opposed to pressing right and letting go]

/rumor
CF can catch the ledge backwards and sometimes sweet spots it

 

[ryankam10]

CF's ball that he turns into will sometimes push you away from the wall xD

spacies cannot hold the ledge if they hold towards the ledge
[like if they hold right the entire time they are headed towards the ledge, as opposed to pressing right and letting go]

/rumor
CF can catch the ledge backwards and sometimes sweet spots it

i love how marth cant grab the ledge backwards (even though he does actually turn around animation-wise at the end of his Up-b) trollolol

 

[Deleted member]

I know this thread is kinda dead, but I was wondering if someone could explain how and why certain characters are gayed by battlefield.

I think it was mentioned that falco is. Is that because he can't up-b sweetspot or something?

Also are there things you can do to prevent falcon from being stupid and not grabbing the edge from your second jump?

Probably more questions in time

move stick to neutral when getting to ledge, pressing forward usually causes you to pass through and die

 

[FabulousGeorge]

move stick to neutral when getting to ledge, pressing forward usually causes you to pass through and die

Is that the same with kongo jungle?
I hate that stage.


This isn't really the right place to ask this, but could someone explain everything about autocancelled bairs? Also I heard something about marth being able to do the same.

Feel free to explain anything and everything, I'm a m3g4n00b

 

[ryankam10]

autocancelling bairs just means landing on the ground after your bair animation is finished i.e. no landing lag, no need to l-cancel. in the case of falcon usually referring to short hop and bairing as soon as possible so the animation completely finishes before you hit the ground

 

[FabulousGeorge]

Bloody hell. Can you still fastfall if you shorthop? If so, how soon after jumping do you have to bair, framewise? Do you get less landing lag than an normal l-cancelled bair?
If you l-cancel as well as do the auto-cancelled thang, do you get the same landing lag as if you l-cancelled? Hard o explain what I'm asking.

Too late to get out of bed and give it a go. Too many questions also.

Sorry

 

[VGmasta]

Bloody hell. Can you still fastfall if you shorthop? If so, how soon after jumping do you have to bair, framewise? Do you get less landing lag than an normal l-cancelled bair?
If you l-cancel as well as do the auto-cancelled thang, do you get the same landing lag as if you l-cancelled? Hard o explain what I'm asking.

I think the question you are trying to pose is that "Can Falcon's b-air be autocancelled with a shorthop (SH) fastfall (FF)?"

The answer is yes.

If you input the b-air as soon as you get into the air, the b-air will autocancel as long as you don't FF frame perfect. Falcon's b-air autocancels after 21 frames of its animation. Falcon's SH air time lasts 31 frames without the FF, and lasts 20 if you FF frame perfectly. So if you FF anytime after reaching the peak of Falcon's SH, your airtime should last long enough for the b-air to autocancel always.

Also, ALL of Falcons L-cancelled aerials have lag. Autocancelled aerials have ZERO lag.

No matter how well and consistent Falcon L-cancels his b-air, Falcon will be dedicated to 9 frames of L-cancel lag.

 

[ryankam10]

Also, ALL of Falcons L-cancelled aerials have lag. Autocancelled aerials have ZERO lag.

technically incorrect
you still have normal landing lag


related note: float cancelling is autocancelling except better.

 

[FabulousGeorge]

I think what I was trying to ask was if I input the l-cancel when it is going to auto-cancel anyway, will I get the l-cancelled lag or the auto-cancelled lag?

Another weird question, but if you do a stomp from high up and then do an uair or whatever, will you have to landing lag of the stomp or uair?

Sorry

 

[VGmasta]

technically incorrect
you still have normal landing lag


related note: float cancelling is autocancelling except better.

Damm it Ryan, lol. Good catch.

Ok, Falcon still has normal landing lag (4 frames) on the autocancel aerials. The autocancel aerials DO NOT have ZERO lag. They have 4 frames. But, that still beats the hell out of 9 frames of L-cancel lag.

Peach's float cancelling actually ties with autocancel lag; they both last 4 frames of landing lag. But, Peach is probably better. Falcon has to be more dedicated in allowing his animations to last a certain amount of time in order to autocancel. Whereas Peach's aerials will float cancel at anytime during her animations. This allows Peach to be on and off the ground faster than Falcon, while still applying **** shield pressure.

I think what I was trying to ask was if I input the l-cancel when it is going to auto-cancel anyway, will I get the l-cancelled lag or the auto-cancelled lag?

If you try L-cancelling the auto-cancel airs, you might wind up shielding instead of simply autocancelling. If you don't let go of L (or R or Z) in time, you'll end shielding as soon as you land the autocancel, which could be bad if you're not trying to shield after the autocancel.

Another weird question, but if you do a stomp from high up and then do an uair or whatever, will you have to landing lag of the stomp or uair?

Sorry

You should had the landing lag of whatever the lastest aerial is before landing. In the case you mentioned, Falcon would have the up-air landing lag (7 frames if L-cancelled). And there's no need to be apologetic here. All questions regarding Falcon's movement from the game are welcomed here. And there's almost always someone willing to give you answers.

 

[Windrose]

NEW stage list in NEW MBR ruleset:

It's interesting to discuss the implications of stage choices and viability with the new MBR ruleset (that's tentative but has been posted) here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313252


What do you guys think of this?
One thing that came to my mind is that falcons will have to practice a lot more on fountain of dreams as there are no stage bans allowed in best out of 5 sets.

 

[FabulousGeorge]

I have little to no real experience, but I think it is rubbish...

Fair enough get rid of stages if they make some things impossible, but why block out any stage that spacies MIGHT not win easily on.

Soz if too emotional. Also I know nothing etc so gang up on me and prove me wrong

 

[Windrose]

well, there's alreayd lots of discussion on that but i'm more talking specifically about effects on captain falcon players and what you guys feel about this playing from a captain falcon perspective?

i'm guessing you're not too happy about the taking away of brinstarr as you take spacies there often?

 

[mers]

Just because people ALWAYS get this wrong:

Autocancelling is NOT simply landing after the attack animation ends. That's just called landing. Autocancelling is when you land after a certain point in the attack animation and you have only 4 frames of lag. You're still in the attack animation, and you wouldn't have been able to jump or do anything else, but you don't have to L-cancel.

 

[0Room]

Why is FoD a neutral
I've always wondered

 

[Wenbobular]

It's not that bad just learn how to edgecancel on platforms like a boss

Also when techchasing sometimes going for an upsmash is actually a fine option if you think they're going to techroll under a low platform of some other dumb thing involving low platforms

Or just full jump, but I don't know if that gets there in time
At least you can always regrab

 

[Windrose]

I generally just try to use stomp a lot on the low platforms on FoD to control the stage. Usmash also is something i only use on FoD haha...(taken notes from s2j as iirc, he said usmash people on the low platforms or something along those lines)

Tafokints says FoD is johnny's secret stage.

 

[crush]

<3 windrose

 

[0Room]

I mean I was just curious about what made it a neutral as opposed to a CP
It seems too random to me
The other most random stage [PS] is now a CP so
Why isn't FoD?
Mostly, what's the criteria?

Just putting that question out there

 

[S l o X]

i'd rather play on yoshi's than fod against a lot of characters.

but it doesn't matter. 90% of tristate doesn't like fod so they don't cp me there.

 

[Roneblaster]

I tried to talk about yoshis and fod being moved to CP in the tentative mbr ruleset thread, but instead people argued about polemon stadium, stage striking, and tried to goad me into admiting it was falcon bias instead of what i was proposing/talking about. It was extremely frustrating and i wont bring up anything ever again in that thread...

 

[tarheeljks]

i've come to like yoshi's even though it's not that good for us. i think it can be a good stage to take someone who is better than you/if you are not confident in edgeguarding b/c you can get easier ko's