Stages Discussion for C.Falcon (UPDATED for NEW MBR rules)

[Roneblaster]

Melee is life. All hail mango and his wife armada.



I would like everyone to take a moment and revel in the greatness of my use of the written word.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol I just tried and it didn't work for me

ur being pretty vague about short hop stomping on battlefield but it doesn't kok block you like FoD

 

[Veetaak]

Melee is life. All hail mango and his wife armada.


word.

Lol, would be the most beast homosexual couple ever

 

[Roneblaster]

Are we talking about sh stomping while standing on the ground and hitting some1 on a plat, or sh stomping on a plat and hitting some1 on the ground?

 

[Tekk]

René blade you just put awful, AWFUL images into my head.

 

[Roneblaster]

Think how good their babies would be.


SOME1 THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

 

[0Room]

Are we talking about sh stomping while standing on the ground and hitting some1 on a plat?

This one
When they are above you

 

[Windrose]

Hey guys, where do I cp vs ice climbers? (especially if they ban rainbow cruise)

(what stages are good and bad vs ic? I know fd is bad)

 

[Walt]

YS is alright because killing people at 60% with knee is always nice and platforms/cloud/easy walljumps make recovering better against them since getting dsmash/fsmash'd right at the edge everytime with a weird tech time sucks. They can cover a lot of distance there with WD>anysmash but at the same time you can also cover the entire stage to punish a lot what with being falcon and all.

DL is DL falcon likes it blah blah blah.

I feel like the PS platform make it so they can't ice block against you very well? Not totally sure on this. I would probably suggest just waiting out transformations, except for grass. I don't think the rest would give falcon a good advantage but idk.

 

[Deleted member]

edit #2: you can short hop stomp on battlefield without fast falling to hit them (it will be nippley and not send them straight up)
==
new discussion

if you really want to be a true ******* and they ban rainbow cruise (which isn't their worst possible pick), pick brinstar or kongo jungle

brinstar is pretty much a death sentence for nana

kongo jungle if you get a lead and you really want to win and lose your dignity you can just camp your *** off worse than armada/hungryboxes ghey ***

stadium is pretty good, but you gotta like the stage and each transformation (except fire no one likes fire). i am the rock stage king and love the **** out of it

yoshis is a bit too small but not too bad

battlefield i think is the perfect size for pressure/spacing

dreamland is too freaking big and im bad at edgeguarding and ghey iceys will camp

FD severely hampers your recovery like all matchups but the platforms really help you out vs iceys awkward edgeguarding

 

[_Rocky_]

It def works on bf

 

[0Room]

I guess like S2J said you just can't ff it
anywho

PS is bad against ICs imo as far as that goes
because it has a lot of room for them to move on the neutral stage
when it changes it's good for you but no one likes the changes so just don't pick it

 

[Windrose]

Okay, getting mixed reviews for pokemon stadium vs IC. I'll definitely try the brinstar and kongo jungle i guess? But in terms of neutrals, it seems like people are saying battle field is best of all the neutrals.

Random note about my personal discovery of brinstar: I've been trying brinstar a lot lately and it's an amazing stage for falcon vs a lot of characters especially spacies. I'm starting to like the stage vs falco a lot cuz it really messes up their l cancels. I like to just huddle around all the stage stuff that can be hit which really messes up falcos. The pillars also block lasers for you and you can like side b against them for all sorts of mind game tricks....yeah I guess i just recently discovered the amazingness of this stage :S Lava combos are also easy to do. I'm surprised I don't see more falcons CP here. :S (there must be some draw back of this stage that I haven't experienced yet due to almost rarely playing on it)

 

[0Room]

That's what I was saying
Why do we keep playing neutrals when we have perfectly good CP stages that Falcon has an advantage on?

It'll probably make it more neutral MU wise

 

[Deleted member]

some people wanna beat people legitly and make themselves better players rather than rely on a crutch that will get them shortterm, but not longterm results

also, icies don't beat falcon. the main reason for icies success vs falcon is a combination of the icies players themselves being very good as well as people not knowing the matchup. Iceys are hella rare.

go watch hax vs fly at genesis 2

 

[0Room]

beating people on not good stages all the time will make u a better player overall

you already have a slight disadvantage vs everyone simply due to playing falcon (which is not nearly as bad as people think)

but it'll teach you how to beat people despite being expected to lose more often than not by simply being the better player

We had this conversation
It's not using a short term crutch as much as using an option that's available to both players that one of that doesn't use and probably isn't used to

 

[tarheeljks]

We had this conversation
It's not using a short term crutch as much as using an option that's available to both players that one of that doesn't use and probably isn't used to

eh, that's why it's a short term fix

 

[Deleted member]

its a repeat for sure, but something worth repeating. but go ahead and spam ur lame counterpicks, barely beat someone you aren't supposed to, gain 0 respect for beating someone by being a brinstar going douchebag, and hurt ur self improvement by not playing real tourney sets on neutrals

not to mention that there is a huge lame/cheese factor in (gay) counterpicks. pp vs m2k last game at rom3 was one of the worst anti climatic set endings of all time to an amazing set from both players and it is close to 100% because of the stage, rainbow cruise (imo)

winning at all costs through cheese/lameness is not cool and is pretty much a hungrybox way of playing(KILLING) the game. i've shifted from a non-gay, to extremely gay, back to almost non-gay style (that included homo stage picks) and i can say your speed of improving is gunna be pretty dam bad

just getting so good on neutral stages will make you extremely consistent in tournament. You will stop being the guy that may beat people a little better than you but suddenly get ***** by players you shouldn't lose to.

==

with regards to falcon vs falco on brinstar, I can see it being not bad for falco if they simply down-air camp center plat, but there is still a big risk factor of lava **** that ***** both people hard but falco harder. It's a fairly luck centric stage that punishes spacies more than you, but picking a gay stage often gays you more than them from what ive seen

 

[The Hunter]

FD best stage for CF!

 

[0Room]

FD is the best stage for momentum
CF runs off of momentum
Therefore FD is one of the best stages for momentum

However
If the other player gets momentum the stage gets bad

Anyway
I'm just saying if you have the option, use it. Whether it's gay or a short term fix is up to you, but you shouldn't limit yourself just because other people say it's stupid.
And I'm not trying to "win at all costs", as in, I'm not going to do stupid things that are just absolutely crazy in an effort to win. I'm looking at it as using all of my options regardless of what others think about it. I'm not going to like freak out if someone presses pause or something. I just believe in CP stages


Let me put it to you this way:
Should I not knee missed techs, and allow them to stand up? Should I not edgehog, and allow them to return to the stage? These are both "honor based" decisions that have been brought up to me many times throughout the years as I've taught people this game.
Obviously the answer is no. That's an honor based system that I don't need to follow, because the decisions of what's honorable or not have already been covered.
In the ruleset.
What you're saying is that if I pick a CP stage and win, that doesn't necessarily prover that I'm the better player. I can definitely see that, though I don't necessarily agree with it.
Because to me, being the best means being better than the other person at everything. Those things I listed above, as well as countless other things such as following tech patterns and outspacing attacks, are all examples of exploiting weaknesses. Exploiting weaknesses is the spirit of competition. There is the quick and the dead. That bracket won't tell you "oh he lost but it was a fantastic match!" That's for people to tell you later. When you go into tournament, you focus on winning by playing the best you can. And through that, you use as many options as you have available to you, and honor isn't an issue because the criteria of figuring out who the better player is has already been set.

If you think that it's a gimmick [which you clearly do] then by all means figure out the way around it and beat whomever chose the counter pick stage to show them that you are the better player. But choosing a CP stage that your opponent is not familiar with simply because they're not familiar with it isn't wrong, but encouraged. It's all in the spirit of competition.

In reality most of the time I just pick DL64 and go about my day. But if I don't have that option, I like having the CP stages open to me.

 

[_Rocky_]

0room

i will 4 stock you on green greens at apex

 

[0Room]

0room

i will 4 stock you on green greens at apex

Lol okay
As long as it's not tournament idgaf

edit;
as far as the post above
I don't expect these stages to stay legal for much longer, and I'm not practicing them religiously for an "unexpected edge" over my opponents. I had them on my random stage list for a while to get used to them but then took them off because I got frustrated with them.

I'm just saying that while the option is there, use it. There's no reason not to.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think choosing a CP stage because the opponent is unfamiliar on it has two sides to it. As S2J said, it will get you results in the short term but not in the long term. However, you can be doing your opponent a favor by reminding him that the stage is a CP and that he should practice on it after you beat him on it due to unfamiliarity. It could be seen as a **** move but I think it could also help them in the long run.
Improving on neutrals will definitely increase your own consistency far more than winning on janky CP's though. Neutrals are always the first stage in the set and a majority of players CP to neutrals. Neutrals also better emulate the general gameplay on legal stages than CPs do. I've recently started to CP to more neutral stages so I can get better on them as opposed to CPing to Brinstar against Fastfallers as DK for a usually guaranteed win as I'm very good on that stage (plus FFers get ***** by the acid & I usually get saved). I definitely feel like long term improvement is significantly more important to me than winning in the short term. Yeah, you'll probably beat me this time, but in the future I'll consistently beat you as I'll have improved .

 

[0Room]

Lol apparently everyone is misinterpreting what I'm saying as using a shortcut to win, or that I apparently live on these CP stages. But I suppose that's part of playing the devil's advocate.

Let me put reiterate this in a short list so that we all know what I'm talking about
1) I'm arguing for the philosophical validity of CP stages
2) I don't believe they'll be legal that much longer, because of the intense hatred against everything that's not neutral
3) I don't CP every single time, in fact I rarely pick CP stages
4) I'm advocating that you play them so that if you get CP'd there you won't be taken off guard
5) CP stages are not gay/stupid/useless/a gimmick. It's part of the current ruleset and if you have the option of picking there then you should do so.
6) I am NOT advocating the use of CP stages every time you lose. There's a difference between taking a set because of a CP stage and CPing throughout an entire tournament.
7) [running off of #6] my argument is about the use of CP stages as an option, not as a crutch.

Okay now back to work
I agree with your first few sentences Strong Bad, and I'm pretty sure you know what I'm saying. Again, my view of being "the best" is being the best at any situation that's thrown at you. This is no different than someone picking Luigi because they know you're bad at the MU, or picking FoD vs a Falcon. It's part of the entire mindset of abusing weaknesses of the character and player to win.

Everyone seems to be in the mindset that my argument is two things: 1) That I'm advocating the use of CP stages in every situation, and 2) Thinking that CP stages are a "quick sticker" to win. #1 has been covered in my list above, so let's talk about #2. Everyone is saying that using CP stages is gay because of their inability to be familiar with the stage, and some characters being more suited for it than another. This really isn't any different than CP Pokemon stadium as a spacie or as Marth or as any ****ing body.
It's a stage and it's meant to be played on. If it gives you advantages whether player or character, and gives your opponent disadvantages [again, whether player or character] you should pick it, which is the point of counter picking stages in the first place.
Even if we're playing just neutrals, there are differences between them, and those differences provide advantages to some characters over others.
--A little bit of extrapolation here to prove a point--
If we're talking about being a better player period, then the ruleset really should just be that we all pick one character and one stage. The character and stage doesn't really matter, as long as we pick one. We could play Yoshi on Yoshi's 64 with the clouds, the point doesn't really change.
--End extrapolation--

What I'm trying to say is
Don't use stages as a crutch, but don't strike them from your option set [also known as everything in moderation]
Using CP stages isn't objectively wrong
If you're going to lose you're going to lose anyway, regardless of the stage you pick, if the opponent is truly better than you.

That's all I've really got for now

 

[BairJew]

If CP stages aren't per say gimmicky quick question why is RC/Brin still legal?

 

[tarheeljks]

It's a stage and it's meant to be played on. If it gives you advantages whether player or character, and gives your opponent disadvantages [again, whether player or character] you should pick it, which is the point of counter picking stages in the first place.

i disagree w/the bolded-- it depends on your goal. if you want to win right now then you should abuse them, but do so with the realization that it could result in success that is only temporary. if your goal is to facilitate long term improvement (even at the expense of short term victories*), then there is a pretty good case for avoiding weird stages. saying don't use them as a crutch but don't strike them either sounds nice, but any match played on a cp comes at the cost of not having played that match on a neutral (don't really care to get into a semantical debate about the word crutch lol). ultimately it's a question of one's aim, but i think most of us want to get better. also, i think the "gay", "shortcut", w/e else stuff is strongly related to the idea of playing to improve (i.e. to be as good as you can be) vs playing to win, though it obfuscates it.


*which everyone does for the most part. often when people implement new strats/tactics/techs they fail or stagnate for at least a little while before progressing

I don't believe they'll be legal that much longer, because of the intense hatred against everything that's not neutral

If CP stages aren't per say gimmicky quick question why is RC/Brin still legal?

also, worth noting here that we are doing away w/counter-picks for the next norcal local.

 

[Windrose]

Yo we're not here to argue the rule set and whether or not you should use the CP stages because they are gimicky. While they are part of the rule set, we should explore them at least in this discussion so that people can know about it. Whether or not we use it is irrelevant. The stages are there so you should know about the little things about those stages incase you ever get CP'd there too.

=======

Let's discuss pokemon stadium?
s2j said he loves the rock transformation (tell us why?). I personally hate the fire and rock transformations. Perhaps everyone can share some tips for these parts of pokemon stadium?

I'm sure MOST falcon players know the generic side-b tricks on certain transformations...i learned these from SS. just side-b against one side where there's no lag and immediately do something else (usually side b again in the other direction). can be done on various places in the rock transformation and also against the tree in the fire transformation.


(random rant: not being able to see yourself at the edge sometimes on pokemon stadium is gay)

 

[Deleted member]

i am the only falcon besides probably SS that loves the rock stage because:

1. tech chasing on right side of the stage is very very easy.

if they tech towards left side onto the diagonal plat all you do is short hop knee without fastfalling. This often leads them to get stuck and flop around where you can simply knee them again for free

right side of the stage (but not the tiny area on the right side) is easy to tech chase too especially with side-b because it will stop them at that ____------- point and if you side-b you will not fall down if you hit the ____----- part

the most rightside of the stage if you hit them/ throw them onto there you literally cannot miss with a stomp if you do not fastfall and adjust based on their tech on that tiny right side part

so, as long as you and your opponent play on the right side of the stage I think its good for falcon if you can exploit that part of the stage well, also if you fight with your back to the left and ur at 200% you can DI everything down when you get hit and tech the rock

bad spots: getting caught in the mineshaft but if you usually hold shield and buffer jump away you're usually good. For some reason I think people in 2008-2009 would 0 to death you here but nowadays people simply don't kill you for doing a mistake here

they camp left side of the stage/ pit, not bad IMO but BORING

==

fire stage ****ing sucks. ghey *** homo DIP in middle of stage ruins a lot of stuff, just plain blows

==

everything else is fine

so stadium to me vs every matchup is pretty much at worst, even. with 1 transformation that I think FAVORS falcon (rock), 1 that gimps him gayly (fire) and everything else being neutral. i like it a lot

the stage boundaries are good, usually good platform locations/windmill for edge cancel recovery

neutral stage plats are good for dum technicals who love to recovery using side-b onto the platforms and you simply short hop knee and catch them every time

so stadium is one of my favorite counterpicks, I am probably the only falcon in the world that thinks rock stage ***** for falcon but w/e

 

[0Room]

What about water though?

 

[Roneblaster]

As far as ICs go, FD is ICs best stage, so dont go there.

 

[0Room]

So what do you think will happen if we take the European ruleset, and have to get rid of bans?

 

[Windrose]

i think it'll make u a better player in the long run but give you a lot of frustration a long the way i guess?

you'll be so good at sdi'ing and not getting grabbed in the long run!
FoD won't be the death of you anymore. I've actually been playing on FoD ALOT lately cuz i'm playing against characters that I'd rather not be playing against on FD.

That up smash thing that s2j said to do when they're on a platform above you is pretty effective on that stage....

 

[0Room]

There's only so much that it can help
No matter how good you are at the stage it's still bad for your character, and your matches will always be

1) Strike stages
2) play stage
3) win/lose
4) If win, play FoD.

That's just how it's going to be. Falcon has a stigma of being bad at that stage and since we always ban it people instantly know, even if they don't play that stage that often, that "I should go here because CF players hate this stage."

That's just how it's gonna be
But you gotta know when it's worth it
Banning Brinstar against Sheik to play on FoD is pretty much a 50/50 of which is going to be worse to you

 

[Windrose]

Unless you are good on FoD. It isn't that bad when you get accustomed to the level.

Choosing stages is not only about giving your opponent a downgrade. It can also be giving yourself an upgrade.

final destination, yoshi's story, and brinstar comes to mind.

I also didn't know brinstar was good for sheik vs falcon. Are we basing this on ss vs tope?

Sent from Samsung Galaxy S using tapatalk

 

[0Room]

Uh, Sheik, Peach, Ganon, and Jiggs all benefit greatly from that stage
DK [may be greatly, SB would know more than me], Falcon, and one other character benefit slightly from that stage

Everyone else is either neutral or disadvantaged [marth]

Sooooooo
But anywho
Being accustomed to the stage still doesn't make it good.
Just means you're better at avoiding the normal traps. Not that I'm saying it's impossible to be good at the stage, just saying that the way it's designed will always get in the way.
It's just you work to minimize the amount it gets in your way.

 

[Deleted member]

There's only so much that it can help
No matter how good you are at the stage it's still bad for your character, and your matches will always be

1) Strike stages
2) play stage
3) win/lose
4) If win, play FoD.

That's just how it's going to be. Falcon has a stigma of being bad at that stage and since we always ban it people instantly know, even if they don't play that stage that often, that "I should go here because CF players hate this stage."

That's just how it's gonna be
But you gotta know when it's worth it
Banning Brinstar against Sheik to play on FoD is pretty much a 50/50 of which is going to be worse to you

FoD is only truly bad vs Fox

other chars it could help you sometimes situationally esp cuz stomp on plats are pretty much gunna hit them even if they are on base level

if you get used to playing on i don't think its too bad, but fox is a nightmare if they know how to play the stage right

it's not ****ing bad vs shieks because it could save you from easy techchases with barely raised plats

and FoD sounds really extremely bad for DK everything will get kok blocked

im starting to think it might be better to go FoD over final destination vs falco, but idk

 

[Strong Badam]

Uh, Sheik, Peach, Ganon, and Jiggs all benefit greatly from that stage
DK [may be greatly, SB would know more than me], Falcon, and one other character benefit slightly from that stage

DK sucks on every stage.

 

[Windrose]

FoD is only truly bad vs Fox

other chars it could help you sometimes situationally esp cuz stomp on plats are pretty much gunna hit them even if they are on base level

if you get used to playing on i don't think its too bad, but fox is a nightmare if they know how to play the stage right

it's not ****ing bad vs shieks because it could save you from easy techchases with barely raised plats

and FoD sounds really extremely bad for DK everything will get kok blocked

im starting to think it might be better to go FoD over final destination vs falco, but idk

Nice! Let's discuss about this? What are you thoughts behind thinking this? I think I've brought this up in the past before too and we've had some discussion in the past but never in full.

 

[Deleted member]

any stage with plats = not lasered for 50 million years

i simply do better with plats, easier to tech chase on plats

plats can still kok block though

if i could just play zhu for hours on FD/ FoD then i think I could figure out which one i like more

 

[Wenbobular]

FoD is a fun stage, but you have to get familiar with it (kinda obvious I guess <_<)
Learn how to edgecancel Uairs on low platforms and your mobility goes from like **** awful to like ... a bit worse than usual xD

The low platforms are also ridiculously sweet if you get something like aerial on a platform -> runoff aerial -> really fast runoff aerial (preferably knee)