Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[Xeze]

Imo, 12 stages is too much. But having at least 8 stages, in order to ensure 2 bans during the counterpicking phase, would be ideal.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

At some point in the past, I posed the question "What would you do if there were 30+ stages that were all unique and all competitively viable?" and while I don't recall what the consensus answer was, I do remember that there were at least a few people who said they'd still want to keep all but a few banned for the sake of a small stage list. This is sheer lunacy to me, but it's a small insight into the thought process of some stage conservatives.

 

[Radical Larry]

At some point in the past, I posed the question "What would you do if there were 30+ stages that were all unique and all competitively viable?" and while I don't recall what the consensus answer was, I do remember that there were at least a few people who said they'd still want to keep all but a few banned for the sake of a small stage list. This is sheer lunacy to me, but it's a small insight into the thought process of some stage conservatives.

We need to meet one day.

This is sadly the case of people.

Imo, 12 stages is too much. But having at least 8 stages, in order to ensure 2 bans during the counterpicking phase, would be ideal.

Well I respect your opinion, but as we know of now, having 5 stages is too small, and 8 is almost as small but still fairly reasonable. Maybe the set minimum can be only up to 10 stages minimum to even it out between it? That way there can still be a reasonable 2 bans during the counterpick phase.

But if it cannot happen, we can have an implemented 2-2-1 counterpick phase where it's Loser > Winner > Loser, the loser chooses the first two stages to ban, winner chooses the next two and loser chooses which stage to play as the counterpick. It's actually soundly reasonable for the amount of stages if there is such a minimum of 10.

We can always have a set minimum of 8 for the 2 counterpick phase.
Or a minimum of 10 for the 2-2-1 Counterpick Solution.

 

[Jams.]

I've noticed that a lot of american rulesets are dropping Castle Siege and Delfino.
Why?!
Both stages have been perfectly fine since brawl. We need to stop this trend asap. This game is not as much fun if they take every perfectly legal stage away.

I feel like many players don't share the same sentiments as you unfortunately. This is why Smashville gentlemans game 1 is so popular, and conservative stagelists like the one you posted below get so much support.

I just saw this:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXvSSAYUkAEBrwG.jpg

WHAT THE ****?!
USA goes ******?

I've heard it in the stream that people are talking about this list but this list is so terrible....

Slightly off topic, but I'm surprised this event had solid Mii rules despite the very conservative stage list. I'm surprised I haven't heard anything about these rules despite the size of this event (and watching it).

At some point in the past, I posed the question "What would you do if there were 30+ stages that were all unique and all competitively viable?" and while I don't recall what the consensus answer was, I do remember that there were at least a few people who said they'd still want to keep all but a few banned for the sake of a small stage list. This is sheer lunacy to me, but it's a small insight into the thought process of some stage conservatives.

Project M is a good example of this. That game has 30+ viable stages, but most regions run with around 10 (5 starter + 5 CP). At some point, I feel like the gameplay benefits of adding more stages aren't worth the added hassle to the stage selection process and the necessity to grind matchups on all legal stages. Perhaps I'm just conditioned by tradition to like a certain number of legal stages though.

Do you feel like there is a practical limit to the number of legal stages? Let's say the number of viable, unique stages was 10000 instead of 30. Is a stagelist of 10000 stages excessive or viable? This isn't meant as an attack BTW, I would just like to know your opinion.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Project M is a good example of this. That game has 30+ viable stages, but most regions run with around 10 (5 starter + 5 CP). At some point, I feel like the gameplay benefits of adding more stages aren't worth the added hassle to the stage selection process and the necessity to grind matchups on all legal stages. Perhaps I'm just conditioned by tradition to like a certain number of legal stages though.

Do you feel like there is a practical limit to the number of legal stages? Let's say the number of viable, unique stages was 10000 instead of 30. Is a stagelist of 10000 stages excessive or viable? This isn't meant as an attack BTW, I would just like to know your opinion.

In theory, if they were all viable, they should all still be legal and due to the sheer number I'd support just letting random select pick a stage unless the players gentleman to a specific one.

In practice, because theory and practice rarely mix well and I like to think I'm not completely insane or unreasonable, I'd probably be willing to entertain arguments for culling the list, but I'd insist on keeping some good variety in the legal selection. (i.e. not just flat + plat, mix it up with moving platforms, transformations, etc. assuming the archetypes are there).

 

[Radical Larry]

Well, in terms of having a stage list consisting of only five stages, it's completely unreasonable to have that little amount of stages. It's not unreasonable to have a minimum bar set at around 10 to 12 stages, all of which having a decent standard for viability and start from there. Is it unreasonable to ask for it?

But talking about the 10,000 stage thing, I don't even think a game would exist with that amount of stages, especially if ALL of the stages had a single piece of music (which could go up to 70 gigabytes of data). 10,000 stages is horrendously high as an example, but it's just an example and not meant to be taken to a literal context at least. Now I do agree with ParanoidDrone about the theory to practice thing, IF the game could even dare function with that amount of stages, in theory, they should be all legal. But definitely not all of them should be legal in practice; but like I said before, using 10,000 as an example is terrifyingly high, but it's not bothering me at least.

 

[Respect38]

[Sorry for the font, it seems that when you change the font size, you can't switch it back; 3 is too small and 4 is too large. I went with 3]

Before I say anything else, I just would like to make the observation that, based on the removal of Pokémon Stadium 1, I feel like Pokémon Stadium 2 should be given more leeway for approval than it did in Brawl, since it does provide a unique platform arrangement that is active for the majority of the match, no matter what transformations come up.

In terms of fighting the long-term conservative trend for stage lists, I'm not sure that playing the war of attrition and trying to hold on to the stages we have will work, unless you had a committee trying to come up with a rationale for what stages should be counterpicks and what stages should be banned, and had that committee hosting tournaments with that ruleset or having some sort of umph [such as large support from the majority of players] to convince current tournaments to adopt their rationale and the stagelist that results from that rationale.

I feel like if just some of the iffier stages were counterpicks: Kongo Jungle 64 [assuming it's not broken, see below], Skyloft, Pokémon Stadium 2, Kalos Pokémon League, Windy Hill Zone, Wuhu Island, then I feel like Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, and Duck Hunt would get a lot more leeway in most peoples' eyes.

What that rationale might be--I don't know. I personally feel like it should be a fairly liberal mindset with the difference between a counterpick and a banned stage mostly being how powerful the stage is for the high-tier characters. If a stage consistently serves to widen the gap between the upper tiers and everyone else, then the stage doesn't serve to build a healthy metagame, in my eyes.
However, I'm not a believer that arguing where to draw the arbitrary "after this is where the stages are too jank" line will work against more conservative mindsets regarding stage lists, because it doesn't seem to have worked for any of the other Smash games.

[I personally don't have a problem with random elements, anyhow, because of the fact that... it's a counterpick. If the person counterpicking is harmed by random elements (or the lack thereof, of those that he had hoped for) then that's on him for counterpicking there. If the person being counterpicked is harmed by random elements, then that's too bad; but it was a counterpick stage, after all. Sometimes counterpick stages benefit the counterpicker--this shouldn't be surprising. While this is a concept that could pretty much be applied to anything, (note how this can be applied to WarioWare Inc., for example; therefore I still recognize that there is a line to be drawn somehow) I find that this concept of counterpick advantage--while not popular--makes stages like Skyloft (players "randomly" being saved) or Pokémon Stadium 2 (transformations giving some players a benefit; if you get that transformation) make much more sense to have as counterpicks, no johns.]

I've time-outed several characters on that stage in several match-up Everytime this stage is legal I abuse it heavily. I'm the reason france has dropped the stage 8)

Alright. By "timed out", do you mean hardcore circlecamping--the kind where you could get a 1% lead at the beginning and run away for the rest of the match? And what characters were the people using that you circlecamped? Is there any video at all to show the potential for circlecamping is on this stage? If we're going to settle that this stage should be banned, it should at least not be done on hearsay.

 

[Yikarur]

Gentlemaning to Smashville all the time is the most stupid thing ever. This is basically the proof that people don't even try to deal with stages. Smashville is an unbalanced stage in so many match-ups and people are still counterpicking it AGAINST characters that are advantaged there. Sometimes I lose the fun in watching those streams because people are counterpicking that bad. They don't care for stages at all, and people who are really into stages have to suffer because they get punished for having more knowledge about the game.

Respect38
I can guarantee you, if someone intends to get a timeout on this stage, he will get a timeout on this stage. The stage heavily encourages this. The stream archive is not available anymore but I'm the reason france has dropped the stage completely. I used the stage against Diddy Kong with Mii Brawler. But you can archive similar results with any other character as long as it has a good mobility. I've practiced camping on that stage before the tournament because I wanted to abuse it. The practice concluded that it's absurd to have this stage legal and I wanted to counterpick it in any case my opponent is not banning it.
You don't need a video. Just practice on the stage with a relatively mobile character. You can always avoid any conflict. You can go into the barrel if you feel like it to waste even more time. It's super easy to force a time out on this stage and the optimal strategy on KJ64 is always a timeout.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm trying to give attention to more stages picked on my end since I play Shulk, such as picking Miiverse more than Battlefield when BF doesn't get striked during game 1 & banned after game 1. Like, any stage can be good for me as long as I play smart & use Monado arts as a trust-worthy adaptive tool. So while this is why I advocate for transformation stages such as Castle Siege & Delfino, seeing these stages getting removed from a stage ruleset is a bummer.

I won't miss Halberd, but a likely & possible removal of DL64 LC & DH in the future is a future I don't want to see. KJ64 is lol to me though. I'd Jump art stall scrooge shark & barrel camp the whole match & take the easy time-out win.

But another thing in my eyes that hurts is the banning clause for Miiverse & every Omega stage. During the banning phase, Miiverse & Battlefield being treated as the same stage is understandable, but with the stage ruleset norm having less stages, stage rulesets become more conservative & it just feels painfully boring especially when Omega stages can be so radically different than the standard FD. I really liked deepseadiva's post here, but if that can't become a reality, then I'd want Omegas to get fleshed out more so that there'd be distinctions of the different Omega stage layouts, like you see here. I'm probably coming off as silly / ignorant, yet it kinda sucks that 34 Omega stages get treated the same as FD.

 

[Charey]

There are small differences, but aside from wall/no wall most of them are so small that they do not affect the outcome of the match in any appreciable way and even the walls only change the match for walljump characters. The other issue is that having very similar stages on the list slants striking towards that stage type, having dreamland as a starter in a 5 starter list causes the same problem.

 

[Respect38]

I can guarantee you, if someone intends to get a timeout on this stage, he will get a timeout on this stage. The stage heavily encourages this. The stream archive is not available anymore but I'm the reason france has dropped the stage completely. I used the stage against Diddy Kong with Mii Brawler. But you can archive similar results with any other character as long as it has a good mobility. I've practiced camping on that stage before the tournament because I wanted to abuse it. The practice concluded that it's absurd to have this stage legal and I wanted to counterpick it in any case my opponent is not banning it.
You don't need a video. Just practice on the stage with a relatively mobile character. You can always avoid any conflict. You can go into the barrel if you feel like it to waste even more time. It's super easy to force a time out on this stage and the optimal strategy on KJ64 is always a timeout.

I don't necessarily disbelieve you, I'm just kind of disappointed if KJ64 will remain permanently banned for what amounts to "believe me, I've abused it, and I know that there's no way to get around someone circlecamping for all 6 minutes of the match if they wish to". Instead, we're going to be stuck with a Melee video where a Ganondorf is actually able to get hits in vs. Melee Peach and just hoping that the brokenness applies to Smash 4. [plus, the number of wavelandings that the Ganondorf missed at the beginning of the match makes me wonder if he was critically unfamiliar with the stage... but this isn't an argument about the legalization of the stage in Melee anyway...]

If by "someone intends to get a timeout", you mean that you can go into match guaranteeing that the match will be determined by timeout rules, but you can't guarantee that you will be the winner, then I don't believe this is what most people mean by circlecamping--although I might be wrong. Obviously, in Melee, the level of circlecamping that Hyrule Castle and Kongo Jungle 64 contain are on different levels: at least you can challenge the other player on Kongo Jungle 64, while Hyrule Castle has many matchups where it literally becomes running away, and the other player can do nothing to prevent it.

Winning by time running out is a valid victory--I'm not sure if that even needs to be said--and should only result in a stage being banned if it causes the stage to become a match of one of the players getting a percent lead and then having a guaranteed victory from that point. [i.e. the stage becomes an effective <10:90 matchup spread for certain common matchups]

The fact is, if Kongo Jungle 64 in Smash 4 is broken based on what character is being circlecamped [rather than vise versa, which has little to no proof right now; and it perhaps has little proof for Melee as well, because I've only seen this one video], then this isn't an argument for banning anyway; this is a game of player vs. player, not character vs. character, and if you're playing a character that gets circlecamped hard on Kongo Jungle 64, then either ban the stage, get a secondary to deal with it, or realize that, like Ice Climbers in Brawl, you're going to get counterpicked really hard [Nana SDs on Rainbow Cruise] if you don't move off your main.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Genesis just announced partnership with Nintendo.
Not good news for the stagelist

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Genesis just announced partnership with Nintendo.
Not good news for the stagelist

All I'm getting out of that is be prepared for music copyright johns. If we want a specific stage, now is the time to push for it.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Is there a complete list by chance of stages that have music that, if directly uploaded from the crappy Youtube sharing feature, will result in copyright warnings? I know there were some specifics if I recall with the Gaur Plains stage and such.

 

[Das Koopa]

It's worth pointing out that less savory stages become increasingly more tolerable if other legal stages have more issues.

Similarly, if you introduce a balanced stage, stages that are counterpicks might be at risk for being shifted out since some counterpicks may only exist because they're "Balanced enough".

If P:M Stadium 2 existed in Melee, Stadium 1 would be banned, no question, and FD or Yoshi's might even become counterpicks as a result. When you grind a competitive game on long enough, smaller details become more important. Shy Guys on Yoshi's suddenly become increasingly problematic if more and more stages lack random distuptive elements, because they set a more and more balanced standard.

Let's say we had a massive stagelist

Spoiler

Pokemon Stadium 2 (Project M)
Delfino's Secret (Project M)
Green Hill Zone (Project M)
Castle Siege (Project M)
Wario Ware (Project M)
Distant Planet (Project M)
Yoshi's Island (SSBB)
Dream Land (SSBM)
Pokemon Stadium (SSBM)
Dream Land (SSB4)
Final Destination
Battlefield
Fountain of Dreams
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Story
Duck Hunt

...The balance disparity would become noticeable very quickly. Stages with random elements like Yoshi's Story (Shy Guys), Lylat Cruise (tilt), Pokemon Stadium (transformations), Duck Hunt (Dog platform) would be thrown out in favor of keeping a balanced stagelist since you've redefined the standard.

I personally support this kind of stagelist:

Starter:
Battlefield
Smashville
Town & City
Final Destination
Dream Land

Counterpick:
Duck Hunt
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza

With starters being as static as possible and CPs being stages with slightly more random elements. I'm vehemently opposed to stages with disruptive hazards, though. They lower the skill cap. At least Delfino and Siege just change terrain.

 

[Radical Larry]

Das Koopa While I like your stage list, I would like to add one stage to your counterpick, Skyloft. It is a very balanced overall stage with no hazards and like Delfino, it is a good and decent transitional stage. This sets an equal amount of stages for Starter AND Counterpick stages.

All I'm getting out of that is be prepared for music copyright johns. If we want a specific stage, now is the time to push for it.

Which stage should we push first? We need to push at least a total of up to 5 to 7 more stages (outside of FD, Smashville, T & C, Lylat and Battlefield) to let people see that the Conservative Ruleset is not necessarily a good idea and the Expanded Minimum Stage Proposition is a somewhat good idea. Is that a plan?

What's the course of action to go about pushing for more stages?
Because like you said, now is the time to push for it!

 

[Das Koopa]

I'd actually modify my list to have Dream Land as the C/P to avoid overlap with BF and just let Lylat be a starter

Skyloft would be okay-ish and it's probably my personal limit.

Any stage hazards or elements that introduce serious amount of disruption (even if brief) become more and more problematic when you look at a lot of sets in a game like Melee and see Stadium's windmill potentially changing the outcome of an entire match. Nobody (repeat: nobody) wants to see a GF determined by random or near-random chance like that, and actual hazards provide a larger risk of that happening.

I think we can find a balance where people learn stages properly but where we don't need really junky stages with a lot of disruptive elements going on ala Stadium 2.

 

[Masonomace]

I'd be down for Skyloft if I didn't have to memorize every single terrain pass-by while the stage is traveling from transition to transition. I wouldn't want my opponent getting hit at a moment I get a rewarding edge-guard & then realize they get hit by some drive-by mountain & then come back snapping to the ledge with their safe recovery.

The argument to that statement could be, "Well learn the hitboxes of the stage & then capitalize off it with another followup". Yes. Yes I could, but I find that to be kinda lame despite that I rarely play on Skyloft due to my scene around me never allowing it in tournaments. But another counter-argument to that previous one ^, would be that because this game favors a lot of characters who possess really good recovery is why I would dislike my opponent getting launched towards a terrain hitbox & then live for free. 'Cus then that prolongs the game's match & then suddenly one could lose momentum & Advantage to quickly change the pace.

Also, if stages get copyright issues, then I'd like my Omega Gaur Plains CP untouched.

There are small differences, but aside from wall/no wall most of them are so small that they do not affect the outcome of the match in any appreciable way and even the walls only change the match for walljump characters. The other issue is that having very similar stages on the list slants striking towards that stage type, having dreamland as a starter in a 5 starter list causes the same problem.

This is true. Most Omegas resemble FD's lip formation, but others simply allow more freedom to play outside & on the stage as weird as that sounds. It's very hard for characters to scrooge underneath FD when you start from the ledge & ledgedrop airdodge drift to the other side, but as a Shulk player who is fully aware of scrooging under stages with the Jump art, it's a breeze performing it on other stages. Still, it's a rare case.

The only few radically different FD Omegas would be ones with multiple elements at play. These include stages such as Omega Windy Hill Zone because it's not just a wall stage, but also contains a grass terrain which does affect your character's traction (and it heavily favors Custom Villager using trip sapling because it camouflages quite well with the stage). And I would consider a walled traction-heavy stage to be completely different than FD yet it still gets lumped with FD in the banning phase.

I don't necessarily disbelieve you, I'm just kind of disappointed if KJ64 will remain permanently banned for what amounts to "believe me, I've abused it, and I know that there's no way to get around someone circlecamping for all 6 minutes of the match if they wish to". Instead, we're going to be stuck with a Melee video where a Ganondorf is actually able to get hits in vs. Melee Peach and just hoping that the brokenness applies to Smash 4. [plus, the number of wavelandings that the Ganondorf missed at the beginning of the match makes me wonder if he was critically unfamiliar with the stage... but this isn't an argument about the legalization of the stage in Melee anyway...]

If by "someone intends to get a timeout", you mean that you can go into match guaranteeing that the match will be determined by timeout rules, but you can't guarantee that you will be the winner, then I don't believe this is what most people mean by circlecamping--although I might be wrong. Obviously, in Melee, the level of circlecamping that Hyrule Castle and Kongo Jungle 64 contain are on different levels: at least you can challenge the other player on Kongo Jungle 64, while Hyrule Castle has many matchups where it literally becomes running away, and the other player can do nothing to prevent it.

Winning by time running out is a valid victory--I'm not sure if that even needs to be said--and should only result in a stage being banned if it causes the stage to become a match of one of the players getting a percent lead and then having a guaranteed victory from that point. [i.e. the stage becomes an effective <10:90 matchup spread for certain common matchups]

The fact is, if Kongo Jungle 64 in Smash 4 is broken based on what character is being circlecamped [rather than vise versa, which has little to no proof right now; and it perhaps has little proof for Melee as well, because I've only seen this one video], then this isn't an argument for banning anyway; this is a game of player vs. player, not character vs. character, and if you're playing a character that gets circlecamped hard on Kongo Jungle 64, then either ban the stage, get a secondary to deal with it, or realize that, like Ice Climbers in Brawl, you're going to get counterpicked really hard [Nana SDs on Rainbow Cruise] if you don't move off your main.

If I can, I'll try to bring my setup to the next Kansas Stock Market tournament Hype! Train 6 where they have a flexible stage ruleset as well as allowing custom specials. I can pick Decisive Jump Shulk, scrooge / camp / barrel camp / run away / shark Uair through the stage for the whole 20 seconds that the Decisive art is active, wait for my 5 second cooldown, then rinse repeat. However, this is a rare case because not every character can maneuver like Shulk can with a Jump art active. But I have timed out characters such as Mario & Sheik on Duck Hunt with non-custom Shulk so, we'll see. It will most likely be due to barrel camping, because once someone enters the barrel, they're completely safe even when shot out from the barrel even afterwards due to having invincibility / intangibility the whole way up. And with Jump Shulk, I can simply wait until I shoot out from the barrel on one end of it's path, airdodge past the ledge & scrooge drift underneath KJ64 to the other side & then shoot back into the barrel to rinse & repeat that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd be down for Skyloft if I didn't have to memorize every single terrain pass-by while the stage is traveling from transition to transition. I wouldn't want my opponent getting hit at a moment I get a rewarding edge-guard & then realize they get hit by some drive-by mountain & then come back snapping to the ledge with their safe recovery.

The argument to that statement could be, "Well learn the hitboxes of the stage & then capitalize off it with another followup". Yes. Yes I could, but I find that to be kinda lame despite that I rarely play on Skyloft due to my scene around me never allowing it in tournaments. But another counter-argument to that previous one ^, would be that because this game favors a lot of characters who possess really good recovery is why I would dislike my opponent getting launched towards a terrain hitbox & then live for free. 'Cus then that prolongs the game's match & then suddenly one could lose momentum & Advantage to quickly change the pace.

Also, if stages get copyright issues, then I'd like my Omega Gaur Plains CP untouched.

While you do have a point in that there's little reason to practice a stage when your local region bans it, I don't think a lack of experience should be a valid reason to keep a stage banned. That's just circular logic. (On the contrary, I think a lack of experience should be a very good argument in favor of making a stage legal because no experience implies no data. Why did something get banned without data?)

Also, if Genesis were to actually make Skyloft legal, do you seriously believe that no one would adjust their own rules to fit in order to get in some practice? If no one bothers to adjust and adapt given advance warning of "hey guys, this stage is going to be legal", that's entirely on them.

If it were up to me, I'd push for either Skyloft or Wuhu Island to be added to the stage list. Travelling transformation stages are a valid archetype of stage one might want to pick, and Delfino's ceilings are drawing a lot of hate lately. Port Town has its own issues (cars, can't grab any ledges). Mario Circuit is a third candidate to consider, I guess, but I'm not sure what the general opinion is on that stage right now.

A general question to readers here, I guess. Which of the following stages do you think would best represent the group of "transforming stages" and why?

1. Delfino Plaza
2. Mario Circuit
3. Skyloft
4. Wuhu Island

 

[Das Koopa]

Mario Circuit has potentially really disruptive car hazards that can disproportionately reward players for grabs or completely change the gamestate. One player could be in an earned advantageous position that's totally ruined by

A: Getting hit by the cars
B: Being forced to abandon your advantageous position so as to not get hit by the cars and be put in a worse position

And the nature of the gameplay and lack of flow catering to the stage makes its effects on the game state completely random. It could decide major matches the same way an exploding capsule spawn could.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Mario Circuit has potentially really disruptive car hazards that can disproportionately reward players for grabs or completely change the gamestate. One player could be in an earned advantageous position that's totally ruined by

A: Getting hit by the cars
B: Being forced to abandon your advantageous position so as to not get hit by the cars and be put in a worse position

And the nature of the gameplay and lack of flow catering to the stage makes its effects on the game state completely random. It could decide major matches the same way an exploding capsule spawn could.

Counterpoints:

The cars only appear when the stage stops at a given location, and then their location is utterly predictable since they follow the road. They also don't always appear in the first place, and when they do there's ample warning.

Regardless of whether or not the cars appear, it's easy to check if it's possible for them to appear (just see if the road is there or not) and plan accordingly. If you insist on fighting near the road anyway, that's a gamble you're willingly taking.

If the car does hit someone, it does only 10% (nowhere near an exploding capsule) and while the kill % varies based on where you are when you get hit, ground-level impacts don't kill Mario until 135% or so, which I'd argue is already kill range for basically anyone and you're living on borrowed time regardless.

Every location where cars can appear has some safe standing room to plan a worst-case scenario around.

All that said, out of the 4 stages I mentioned in my previous post, which would you say is the best? You didn't answer that.

 

[Radical Larry]

Masonomace But there is nothing to disrupt your edge-guarding attempt except for some walk-off portions of the stage, but even then, your opponent could be KO'd by that time. That said, Skyloft has no wall terrain that disrupts edge-guarding attempts whatsoever, because I know all of the portions of the stage. The only part of the stage that actually has a wall is the same one where there's only a walk-off that leads toward the right part of the stage, and that is covered by soft platforms so likelihood of your opponent being saved is still very slim.

Counterpoints:

The cars only appear when the stage stops at a given location, and then their location is utterly predictable since they follow the road. They also don't always appear in the first place, and when they do there's ample warning.

Regardless of whether or not the cars appear, it's easy to check if it's possible for them to appear (just see if the road is there or not) and plan accordingly. If you insist on fighting near the road anyway, that's a gamble you're willingly taking.

If the car does hit someone, it does only 10% (nowhere near an exploding capsule) and while the kill % varies based on where you are when you get hit, ground-level impacts don't kill Mario until 135% or so, which I'd argue is already kill range for basically anyone and you're living on borrowed time regardless.

Every location where cars can appear has some safe standing room to plan a worst-case scenario around.

All that said, out of the 4 stages I mentioned in my previous post, which would you say is the best? You didn't answer that.

I did mention this in a previous post, but I will also state this in the event someone says that the top road is a hazard. It only appears on one simple part of the stage and while it does damage, it does end at some point and can easily be tech'd. The knockback does increase, but not enough to where you can't tech it.

Anyways, of the four stages you mentioned, I'd have to say Mario Circuit. While yes, this stage does indeed have hazards, once you go around you will notice that there is only one true walk-off portion (the finish line) and a partial walk-off on the stage, which is actually less than Delfino Plaza's walk-off amount.

But I would like to know why you didn't include Port Town Aero Dive. Any reasoning behind it? I might have counterpoints toward it.

 

[Das Koopa]

The % doesn't matter; It's the fact that it hits at all. That destroys your position, and a position loss is all it takes to completely turn the tide of the game at the top level. Hence the comparison to the capsule.

Basically, the fact that they exist is the issue, since due preparation may require giving up an advantageous position, which punishes actual tech and gameplay skill in favor of keeping a stage legal (when plenty of other stages without these issues exist...). The ability to prepare implies that you can do something, but that "something" could easily be detrimental to your position in the gamestate.

...Which is where the random factor comes from.

Also, Delfino's the least disruptive/wonky of those, and I'd be fine with it as a CP.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Masonomace But there is nothing to disrupt your edge-guarding attempt except for some walk-off portions of the stage, but even then, your opponent could be KO'd by that time. That said, Skyloft has no wall terrain that disrupts edge-guarding attempts whatsoever, because I know all of the portions of the stage. The only part of the stage that actually has a wall is the same one where there's only a walk-off that leads toward the right part of the stage, and that is covered by soft platforms so likelihood of your opponent being saved is still very slim.



I did mention this in a previous post, but I will also state this in the event someone says that the top road is a hazard. It only appears on one simple part of the stage and while it does damage, it does end at some point and can easily be tech'd. The knockback does increase, but not enough to where you can't tech it.

Anyways, of the four stages you mentioned, I'd have to say Mario Circuit. While yes, this stage does indeed have hazards, once you go around you will notice that there is only one true walk-off portion (the finish line) and a partial walk-off on the stage, which is actually less than Delfino Plaza's walk-off amount.

But I would like to know why you didn't include Port Town Aero Dive. Any reasoning behind it? I might have counterpoints toward it.

Port Town has no grabbable ledges anywhere, and the F-Zero racers are a much bigger threat than the Shy Guys on Mario Circuit. They do 20% damage and can kill Mario as low as 50%. They also don't give any explicit warning of their appearance other than simply seeing them in the background about a second before they're in the fighting plane.

EDIT:

The % doesn't matter; It's the fact that it hits at all. That destroys your position, and a position loss is all it takes to completely turn the tide of the game at the top level. Hence the comparison to the capsule.

Basically, the fact that they exist is the issue, since due preparation may require giving up an advantageous position, which punishes actual tech and gameplay skill in favor of keeping a stage legal (when plenty of other stages without these issues exist...). The ability to prepare implies that you can do something, but that "something" could easily be detrimental to your position in the gamestate.

...Which is where the random factor comes from.

Also, Delfino's the least disruptive/wonky of those, and I'd be fine with it as a CP.

I'd argue the ability to gracefully deal with a forced change of stage position is itself a skill that is almost completely untested in our current stage list and that as long as the stage itself does not penalize a failure to do so too heavily, then it's still worth consideration.

 

[Das Koopa]

The problem is that there's no proper adaptation. "Adaptation" would just mean having to win another neutral because you were forced to let go of your position you had already earned. It doesn't actually add anything to gameplay except a varied/random get-out-of-jail-free card in certain situations. It's not rewarding as a counterpick since there's no inherent skill-based advantage earned by either player, and it's too transformative/random in layout to be a neutral. I don't see what it adds.

It doesn't present a layout that allows you to capitalize based on skill. That's the problem with hazards, telegraphed or not. Halberd's are even more telegraphed, but it's the fact that they disrupt gameplay at all that makes the stage so iffy.

 

[Routa]

It doesn't present a layout that allows you to capitalize based on skill.

I love when everyone think everything should come down to skill only. Knowledge about game mechanics is very important and should never seen as inferior to player's skill. Let's give give example about stage that can favor player with a good stage knowledge: Brinstar (my favourite stage). Brinstar has lava that rises from time to time. It deals low damage and kills late. Bad thing, eh? The thing is that you can throw your foe into lava if they happen to get grabbed at wrong time and follow up with strong aerial (Ike's B-throw into Fair). Also some parts of the stage can be hit (pilars near the edge and the mass in the middle). These parts of stages keep moves hitbox active longer if they are hit with a move. For example if you are holding the ledge and your foe is at the ledge you are able to Uair through the stage. Thanks to the mass pilar the hitbox stays active long and enemy will get hit if they are unfamiliar with the stage or just too hasty. This brings more depth to the stage.

In my opinion stage should never be banned 'cause it has a hazard or it is a transforming stage. Only if the hazard or transformation doesn't bring anything new to the game and influels game's flow "too much"... then we can start thinking about banning. And yes I think PS2 should be legal 'cause it tests players stage knowledge.

Yeah my example wasn't the best, but I hope you understood what I meant.

 

[Respect38]

It's very possible that this question has already been answered in this overarching debate about stage legality, but I wanted to ask: what about Wuhu Island, Delfino Plaza, Mario Circuit, and Skyloft make them "repeats" to the point where we have to only legalize one or two of them?

It can't be their nature of being transforming stages unless there's something integral about the act of transforming that causes matchup imbalances.

When most people talk about "repeats" [which is a valid complaint, of course] within a stage list, it's because you have two similar stages that cause identical matchup imbalances, like when Dreamland and Battlefield are considered separate CPs. [or, more extreme--if Miiverse and Battlefield were considered separate CPs] What is it about these stages that's the problem?

Is it sharking? Is it the fact that landing on a transformation can result in luckily surviving what would otherwise be a KO? Or is there something else that I'm missing? Do these things really create an extreme matchup imbalance worthy of making it so that we can only have one of these four stages as a legal counterpick?

As for which stage is the best, I love the fact that Mario Circuit has a consistent platform layout during the transformation phase. If someone wants to CP here for the platform layout, then it will be a consistent part of the stage most of the way through. I'm not sure if, like Pokémon Stadium 2, some parts of the stage ruin what is otherwise a unique and interesting neutral. [Pokémon Stadium 2 being comparable to Pokémon Stadium 1, and Mario Circuit being comparable to Yoshi's Island [Brawl] with slightly longer, flat, and non-tilting platforms]

 

[Das Koopa]

I love when everyone think everything should come down to skill only. Knowledge about game mechanics is very important and should never seen as inferior to player's skill. Let's give give example about stage that can favor player with a good stage knowledge: Brinstar (my favourite stage). Brinstar has lava that rises from time to time. It deals low damage and kills late. Bad thing, eh? The thing is that you can throw your foe into lava if they happen to get grabbed at wrong time and follow up with strong aerial (Ike's B-throw into Fair). Also some parts of the stage can be hit (pilars near the edge and the mass in the middle). These parts of stages keep moves hitbox active longer if they are hit with a move. For example if you are holding the ledge and your foe is at the ledge you are able to Uair through the stage. Thanks to the mass pilar the hitbox stays active long and enemy will get hit if they are unfamiliar with the stage or just too hasty. This brings more depth to the stage.

In my opinion stage should never be banned 'cause it has a hazard or it is a transforming stage. Only if the hazard or transformation doesn't bring anything new to the game and influels game's flow "too much"... then we can start thinking about banning. And yes I think PS2 should be legal 'cause it tests players stage knowledge.

Yeah my example wasn't the best, but I hope you understood what I meant.

The core gameplay is set on a stage, but the preference for static stages comes from the fact that no two fights are ever the same, due to a variety of moveset options and characters present. The stage acts independently of two skill-heavy players going at it, and if the stage is disruptive, it becomes effectively random in its ability to exploit gameplay.

With Brinstar, there can be a number of situations in Melee where the timing of the stage simply doesn't serve in your favor whatsoever, resulting in cheap and junky KOs for the opponent. Kage vs. Darkrain is a fantastic example where stage knowledge doesn't mean anything because players doesn't play based around the globally-timed hazards, because if one player does, they'll get punished for it in some way, meaning neither player will attempt to play around the stage hazards unless they absolutely have too, resulting in an essentially random outcome.

So when you say "too much", most players who play at a competitive level would most likely agree that any damaging disruptive elements to gameplay are "too much" because they can straight-up invalidate the great part of the game, i.e., skill-based training, in favor of very casual stages that offer nothing as counterpicks past superfluous map knowledge that immediately loses its counterpick value once you pull the card.

Let's say Circuit was even legal: Nobody would play it at the top level for the reasons listed. Nobody wants to play a match on a stage that could have a random outcome on gameplay. They'd just runback to Smashville or pick a static stage because you can at least rely on it not seriously affecting your gameplay. It would be cycled out.

The reason people care the most about skill is because skill is something you work for. You can read up on cheesy stage exploits, but once both players know them, they won't go back to that stage since the flow of gameplay can randomly lead to one player being benefited by those exploits.

 

[Shouxiao]

I think something like this should be done

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
1 or 2 of the Omega variants of stages

Counterpick
Dreamland 64
Duck Hunt
Town and City
Lylat

Maybe Counterpick
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64(doubles)

I think having around 8 stages or so would be good and I say the community should allow 1 or 2 of the Omega stages to be starters. Well I would say pick an Omega stage that allows wall jumping and wall clinging. It would be a similar case to Battlefield vs Dreamland 64 but the Omega stage that community decides would be a starter.

I think that is a good question actually.

Should the community allow 1 or 2 Omega stages to be a starter? The Omega stage would allow wall kicking/clinging.

Also it is actually easier for many characters to go under some Omega stages compared to FD.

 

[Das Koopa]

The problem with multiple omegas as starters is you risk stage style overlap

I think we should work to find a couple of good omegas as counterpicks, but I'd have no idea where to start

 

[Shouxiao]

The problem with multiple omegas as starters is you risk stage style overlap

I think we should work to find a couple of good omegas as counterpicks, but I'd have no idea where to start

I see what you mean. That is why I think the community should vote on 1 or 2 Omega stages.

I think if anything the community should at least vote on 1 Omega Stage. That stage should allow wall jumping/clinging.

Basically my idea is to have 4 starters and 4 counterpicks.

 

[Radical Larry]

So it would seem that Mario Circuit (Smash 4) is starting to get some traction into having the probability of being a good stage to be put on a stage list. Seeing as it only has two real hazards (which are again, predictable and avoidable, but that horse has been beaten to death) and it has a consistent platform layout and transition layout with only one true walk-off and semi-walk-off, it would seem that is the case, but with the hazards, the stage would probably be a prime candidate for a counterpick stage.

Am I wrong that this stage could be prime to be a counterpick stage? It is probably the most balanced of all of the transitional stages in the entire game, and that's a lot when you have Delfino Plaza and Skyloft as candidates for balanced transitional stages.

And boy, you have to admit that these "conservatives" pushing for lower stages are actually missing not only the point, but are also missing out on stages that are balanced enough to stay. And you know, so what if a stage is a "clone" of itself?

...it's funny...

These kinds of people who don't want Dreamland 64 or Miiverse in Smash U to be tournament legal are contradictory. Believe me, if you've seen Melee's competitive scene, you get to see literally 4 stages that are basically complete clones of one another, and they are Battlefield, Dreamland 64, Fountain of Dreams and Yoshi's Story. All have identical layout. So why is it in Melee, that we have 4 stages that are the same AND tournament legal, but in Smash U, it's literally like, "No, uh, that would be too many of that stage and that stage because they're clones!"

Why? Why let another game in the series have 4 identical stages tournament legal and yet when it comes to having more than 2 stages that are the same as tournament legal in THIS game, it's like a taboo or something?

So let me say this, because people can be hypocrites at times, we shouldn't actually ban Dreamland or Miiverse from Smash U tournaments, but instead, we should embrace them as tournament legal stages. Because if Melee could have 4 stages like Battlefield, so should Smash U.

You may argue that Melee is different from Smash U, and you're right. But what isn't different is the fact that stages with identical looks shouldn't be banned solely for being identical in appearance, but rather if they have game-breaking hazards within them. Heck, stages with identical concepts with the utmost balance, like the transitional stages, shouldn't be banned for being pretty much the same, but one should instead look at what they have.

So...I got the world's biggest counterargument against banning "clone stages". If Melee can have multiple "clone stages", why can't Smash U?

 

[Das Koopa]

Calling Dream Land, Yoshi's Story, and Battlefield "identical" is one of the most absurd things I've ever seen said about Melee's metagame. It's right up there with "FD's the only stage pros use!"

Blast zones are all different on those stages and it has large implications on gameplay and character survivability. You can come up with an argument for additional clone-ish stages to be CPs, but don't use Melee as an example when any veteran will tell you that's complete nonsense.

I mean, (Melee) Dream Land- despite having a large panel/three platform layout - is larger than Battlefield and has insanely distanced blast zones, as an example. These are not minor differences. Certain characters like Peach can live an extra 20% on the receiving end of certain attacks just be virtue of Dream Land's ceiling compared to something comparatively tiny like Fountain.

Even small things like Marth's sword range are affected by platform height. You can hit opponents from under platforms on Yoshi's and Battlefield, but not Dream Land.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I get that Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, and Dream Land are not identical. (That said, I still feel comfortable describing them in general as "Battlefield", "Small Battlefield", and "Large Battlefield", which probably says something. I don't know exactly what, but probably something.)

But separate from that, I find myself annoyed that Halberd and Delfino's low ceilings get so much hate while it seems to be hunky-dory for half of Melee's stage list to be differentiated first and foremost by their blast zone sizes. It feels like a bit of a double standard.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'm a-okay with Delfino's low ceilings since it actually does owe to skillful advantage play. It's a legitimate counterpick option.

My biggest issue with Delfino is the pillar segment and the walkoffs, but it's worth keeping them. I feel like it'd get played more often if you just left it in the stagelist.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well, I knew I'd get some heat when I said they were identical. I was just referring to how they look; their platform, being the three platform layout, is the same concept just redone 4 times. Yeah, I know the blast zones are different, and yes, they can be upscaled, but the point is, is that they are essentially dilated versions of one another. Same shape, different size, but some have differences to them.

The same applies to Smash 4 with Battlefield, Dreamland, Miiverse and Lylat Cruise. Battlefield is the normal, Dreamland is the enlarged, Miiverse is the immensely horizontal and Lylat is the vertically flat. They are all just dilations of one another in Smash 4, just as Melee's 4 "Battlefield" stages are all dilations of one another essentially.

So my point should have been that since Melee allows dilations of the same stage, so can Smash 4. Right?

 

[Yikarur]

Miiverse should never be allowed. No online play, no replay sending, you cannot pick it when you use a 3DS as controller. The stage is apparently just meant to not be played for some weird (Sakura why?) but because the stage is identical to battlefield except for some really really minor details, it doesn't matter anyway. (rip music).

Mario Kart 8 is terrible. I'm always laughing while playing this stage. There are so many things happening on there that should not be happen. I once survived until 260% because there has always been a wall or the cars that randomly safed me. That should never be happen. Thats the same deal with Skyloft. The stage randomly safes you from crucial knockback and thats not really predictable or avoidable.


Halberd is not banned because of the hazards. If you ban Halberd because of the Hazards then you are insane. Hazards are fine as long a they are predictable, avoidable and not too strong. Halberds problem have always been the abusable blastzones and if the blast zones didn't exist this stage would not be banned in almost any ruleset right now.

Delfino Masterrace

 

[Masonomace]

While you do have a point in that there's little reason to practice a stage when your local region bans it, I don't think a lack of experience should be a valid reason to keep a stage banned. That's just circular logic. (On the contrary, I think a lack of experience should be a very good argument in favor of making a stage legal because no experience implies no data. Why did something get banned without data?)

Also, if Genesis were to actually make Skyloft legal, do you seriously believe that no one would adjust their own rules to fit in order to get in some practice? If no one bothers to adjust and adapt given advance warning of "hey guys, this stage is going to be legal", that's entirely on them.

If it were up to me, I'd push for either Skyloft or Wuhu Island to be added to the stage list. Travelling transformation stages are a valid archetype of stage one might want to pick, and Delfino's ceilings are drawing a lot of hate lately. Port Town has its own issues (cars, can't grab any ledges). Mario Circuit is a third candidate to consider, I guess, but I'm not sure what the general opinion is on that stage right now.

A general question to readers here, I guess. Which of the following stages do you think would best represent the group of "transforming stages" and why?

1. Delfino Plaza
2. Mario Circuit
3. Skyloft
4. Wuhu Island

I can dig that. I'd like actual data & results with the inclusion of stages in a ruleset to decide whether a stage stays or becomes banned. I'm always in favor of stages like PS2 & Wuhu but they'll never see the light anytime soon for my scene. Basically my local scene is conservative like most areas(?) which isn't a bad thing, but the factor that makes or breaks our stagelist rule-set depends on the stagelist nationals & regionals use. So let's say that Genesis & big name tournaments from there on suddenly allowed Skyloft, then my local scene would absorb that ruleset & play with it in our own stagelist. it kinda comes down to, "if the top class tournaments have it, then we as players can adapt to it". That doesn't entirely hold true to our scene's opinion, but that's the TL;DR of it.

I don't have enough knowledge / data about Mario Circuit for reasons, but I know a bit about it to know that it would be up in the air & not likely favored for my scene to allow it. I'm fairly sure that my scene would allow Skyloft over Mario Circuit atm.

Masonomace But there is nothing to disrupt your edge-guarding attempt except for some walk-off portions of the stage, but even then, your opponent could be KO'd by that time. That said, Skyloft has no wall terrain that disrupts edge-guarding attempts whatsoever, because I know all of the portions of the stage. The only part of the stage that actually has a wall is the same one where there's only a walk-off that leads toward the right part of the stage, and that is covered by soft platforms so likelihood of your opponent being saved is still very slim.

The edge-guarding moments I was mentioning about are when the traveling transitions are taking place, like shown in this video (I wouldn't blame ya if you didn't watch the whole video). It's not that big of a deal like I kinda made it out to be, but I still think it's beyond words to just be saved by the stage's terrain as it's traveling to the next transition. I'd look at that & think, "great, more effort to take this stock" & that's about it. The stage is mixed to me but I ultimately wouldn't mind it being legal in the end. Between all of the traveling transition stages, I'd probably prefer Delfino Plaza Wuhu Island & Skyloft over Mario Circuit but I would rather advocate for Wuhu Island & Delfino Plaza out of the four.

Miiverse should never be allowed. No online play, no replay sending, you cannot pick it when you use a 3DS as controller. The stage is apparently just meant to not be played for some weird (Sakura why?) but because the stage is identical to battlefield except for some really really minor details, it doesn't matter anyway. (rip music).

I personally enjoy what Miiverse offers over Battlefield when it comes straight down to the MU you're playing against. Battlefield's ledges are so thin that disjointed hitboxes or just whacky things can happen & untechable stage spikes take place whereas Miiverse's ledges are more promising & true on the eyes that you'd expect. While it's not a big deal for me, I'm aware of the unfortunate ability to accidentally pineapple yourself on BF that may happen rarely from time to time, but it happens & Miiverse again is more promising & the stage layout is what you'd expect when you decide to recover to the ledge. Longer side platforms prevents a few strategies that characters would benefit from the gap between the upper & side platforms on Battlefield such as Villager Bowling Ball on the upper platform, Bowser & Yoshi's Down B bomb, etc.. In my special case, playing Shulk & choosing this stage over BF means I can scrooge & Uair shark reliably in Jump art & even shark with the startup of Fair & the active hitbox of Nair above me (Don't Nair unless you like being risky & more likely dying, or you're that confident in it). And again, in my case, my pressure applied with Utilt & Nair favors the side platforms closer to the center of Miiverse as well as Utilt for Shulk in general covering most if not all the space of a side platform. So as far as the limitations of the stage, it doesn't bode well in comparison to BF but it's because of those minor stage details that I personally play Miiverse more than BF in the grand scheme.

 

[epicnights]

I've been thinking of possibly seeing if my local TO would be interested in doing a tourney with debatably legal stages (shoutouts to VSGC | DC) since we are known for doing tourneys with unusual rulesets (Jank City, Random Partner doubles). The only issue is, I haven't really had the time to gather at least 7 stages to make a stagelist with. I'd love to see suggestions for such a ruleset to present with my idea. It doesn't have to be limited to just 7, either; any amount of stages is appreciated.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've been thinking of possibly seeing if my local TO would be interested in doing a tourney with debatably legal stages (shoutouts to VSGC | DC) since we are known for doing tourneys with unusual rulesets (Jank City, Random Partner doubles). The only issue is, I haven't really had the time to gather at least 7 stages to make a stagelist with. I'd love to see suggestions for such a ruleset to present with my idea. It doesn't have to be limited to just 7, either; any amount of stages is appreciated.

Candidate list of stages is go. Arranged vaguely in order of more to less acceptable, but don't read too much into that. Basic guideline I used is "nothing that was legal at EVO, or Miiverse/Dream Land/Omega". 100% insane stages like Palutena's Temple (too big), Pyrosphere (Ridley), or Pac-Land (no) I just ignored outright. Others aren't on here because...eh. (Bridge of Eldin?)

"Normal" Stages:

• Kongo Jungle 64
• Wuhu Island
• Skyloft
  
• Mario Circuit
• Windy Hill Zone
  
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Luigi's Mansion
• Garden of Hope
• Mushroom Kingdom U
• Pirate Ship
  
• Norfair
• Wily Castle
  
• Orbital Gate Assault
  
• Woolly World
• Jungle Hijinxs
  
• Gamer
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Midgar

Walkoffs:

• Mario Galaxy
• Coliseum
• Wii Fit Studio
• Boxing Ring

Bonus:

• Super Mario Maker

If I were to actually run a tournament with a deliberately unusual stage list, I'd probably go with the following for a first attempt:

• Skyloft
• Wuhu Island
• Windy Hill Zone
• Garden of Hope
• Mushroom Kingdom U
• Wily Castle
  
• Gamer
• Midgar
• Wii Fit Studio

My rationale:

I'd also go with FLSS procedure (9 stages works nicely with that) and DSR but a restricted Gentleman's Clause: Any stage is allowed by mutual agreement with the exception of any stage that was legal at EVO, Dream Land, Miiverse, or an Omega stage. This is just to prevent players from short-circuiting the entire point of the exercise. If I wanted to troll I'd also say no stage bans, but one or two seems reasonable.

Mario Circuit could replace either Skyloft or Wuhu Island according to personal taste. Likewise one could replace Wii Fit Studio with Coliseum. Mario Galaxy is another candidate but is sufficiently different from the other two that it's not really interchangeable.

I avoided picking stages like Orbital Gate Assault or Woolly World on the assumption that a first attempt should be relatively tame in order to not scare everyone away. If it went well and there was interest in an encore, I'd consider mixing up the stage list.